Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV? No one in the US is buying your affordable EV because you only sell them in Europe!
Yeah, a surprising number of people don't want these hyper complex cars with thousands of microchips and millions of lines of code operating them. Give me an electric 2012 Honda fit/Toyota matrix equivalent that just fucking works and costs $20k or less new.
Yes please. I want my car to work without tracking and software updates.
Keep dreaming.
I’m just refusing to buy a car newer than 2008. Really an arbitrary cutoff, but that seems to be about when every car started to get as many electronics into them as possible.
Yeah, I don't care about color changing LEDs in the trim or talking computers, just give me a cheap android-auto-compatible head unit (replaceable please, none of that integrated bullshit), a cheap instrument cluster and a real handbrake.
An EV at that price was always unrealistic the battery is 75% that cost. But an ICE under 20 is easy. People just want nicer shit when they see the vehicles or have to head to Mitsubishi.
Everyone's super obsessed with 300-400 mi ranges though. 100mi would be totally fine for most people and would require a small fraction of the battery (bigger batteries give decreasing returns)
Until it's not, and then it's an expensive pain. I travel 500 + 700 miles three times a year and renting a car for a week isn't viable. There are enough edge cases just like that for most people.
Nobody wants to stop for 25 minutes (if you are lucky and don't have to wait in queue) on their longer trips.
The actual solution you agree looking for is PHEV. That's the middle ground that's perfect for most individuals.
The phev f150 is the most functional auto/tool for travel and work I've ever seen.
It’s the batteries. They are the biggest cost in an EV. The margins on such a car would be too low. Even the new Volvo XC30 is 35k plus which is one of the cheapest and most barebones EV.
But Volvos have never been cheap. Also big and heavy forever.
Make an eFit for $15 - 20k and sell a bazillion of them.
Good luck finding enough batteries for that many cars. That’s the entire problem right now. They can’t scale the production to the point that will make the production of econobox EVs reasonably profitable. Because the worldwide production capacity of lithium batteries is lagging behind the demand right now. Also why the cost of the batteries are high.
Well the answer is right there - smaller cars, smaller packs. Can power 2 or 3 fit sized EV's for every lightning F150 pack.
Got exactly that with a VW e up.
You know that the e up was cancelled by VW?
Yes
I currently lease a 2 years old Renault Zoe (very compact car) for 200€ a month (0€ upfront). It was a special deal in Germany for a few months. I charge at home with solar panels and rarely drive more than the 300-350km range.
It honestly feels like the holy grail of electro mobility.
And if you had an ICE car you would be spending around that 200 just on fuel, as it is with both my kids and their baby EVs, its like having a free car.
There’s no margins there. Just like in real estate, the best margins are at the high end. They won’t make affordable cars while they can make more money on expensive ones.
Other companies can, but the big ones can't? Yeah, no. I don't buy that for a second.
Like who do you mean when you say other companies?
BYD seem to be making good.
Isn’t that a Chinese company? They can probably get the batteries for cheaper than non-Chinese companies. Batteries are the biggest cost in a econo EV
Because people are buying all the mid- and high-end EVs. If it's more profitable, there's some sense to it until that saturates (although it sounds like that's finally happening maybe)
GM tried real hard for the lower-end. And cars like the Bolt EUV ended up actually really good especially for the price. Then they cancelled it because they just weren't making enough money or volume or scaling like they wanted.
And at the moment ALL the carmakers have gone kinda nuts with pricing. And sales are still super strong overall. Just...softening. Apparently especially for EVs.
Also, people are paying way, way too much for cars. It's insane how many people making $60,000 a year or less are buying cars worth almost that much, and taking out these ridiculous loans. I guess the interest rate hikes are putting a little damper on it, but it's been just stupid.
The Bolt EUV is the only reason we have an electric car now (personally, I would have gotten the smaller and cheaper Bolt but it was a family decision to go with the EUV). It was reasonable for what you get. The only downside is the slower charging compared to other EVs but I don't plan on taking it for longer trips. We have an ICE for that.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV?
Because car manufacturers don't give two shits what people need, nor what's best for the environment, they're in the profit making business, and that's all that matters.
We're at the point now where this shouldn't need to be pointed out, the fact it does goes to show just how successful (from their viewpoint of course) their propaganda is..
This. It's even worse in Australia. The only affordable ev is a Tesla 3 @ 55k AUD. Which even then is out of reach of most.
Why not make a 30k EV? Penetrate the majority of consumers.
I'm on a great wage and even I shake my head at 80-120k range of most EVs here. Then you get bwm releasing 180k+ EVs.. who exactly is buying them?
When you price a technology out of the reach of people, the tech isn't the failure.
You can buy a BYd Dolphin for $38k ($24kusd) mate.
I went for a hoon in a BYD the other day, it was awesome fun. Not the dolphin, the other A*.* one that's everywhere.
I believe they're a cheap EV but it has all the bells and whistles, goes like the clappers, can do cool stuff like start the AC remotely so by the time you walk from work to your carpark it's nice and comfortable, gets 450ish on a charge and can be topped up overnight on a standard power point for most people's commute.
I'm so keen to own an EV, all I need is a justification... Right now I have a work vehicle that carries a tonne (literally) at all times which makes an EV less appealing.
Because batteries are expensive. So by default you're targeting a luxury price, whether it's luxury sports car or a luxury SUV.
Electric cars make zero sense for the less well off. No one wants to go and sit some where for 45 minutes for 80% of a charge when they can go tonangas station and fully gas up a car in less than Five minutes. Also that is if there isn't a line to one of the few public charging. Imagine working a shit job for 40k a year and then having to go and sit and wait for wven an hour to get to charge your car that then takes an hour to charge it self
Imagine working 40 hours a week and having to breathe gas fumes while you bike to work because your homeowners insurance doubled and now you can’t afford your ICE car.
No one thinks the transition to electric will be fun but it’s necessary because we waited 30 years to even acknowledge climate change. If you want to drive an ICE, you should have to pay for the destruction you’re causing so we can subsidize public transport. But failing that, EVs are the bare minimum.
Check your watch - it's been 50 fucking years. At least.
I guess you are walking around with your phone until it dies, charge it for 5mins and then repeat? ... or do you just plug it in over night or when you are not using it?
That's really not a good point you are bringing up here. You could critisize, that there are only few public charging stations (with user friendly terms) or what the comment you answered to is critisizing or even that there are so few alternatives for (really) climate friendly transport, but your point is just 'what if I am not able to think at all??'
I think the assumption in Pasta4u's scenario is that home charging overnight is not an option.
As is the case for the majority of people, especially people living in cities
If you own your own home with off street parking, this is established and known technology. Still kind of expensive, but for example, I just got a new circuit for a charger, for less than a new circuit for an induction range.
The place we need to put the most effort into is rental places or HOAs with off street parking. We have the technology, we know how to do it, but there’s a mismatch between who pays and who benefits. It’s a people problem. If the landlord/HOA pays, how can we help them see the benefit so they’ll be willing to? Eventually this will solve itself when EVs become popular enough that people will be unwilling to rent or live there, but now it’s an obstacle. A purely human obstacle
The less well of typically do bot own thier own homes.
More to the point people who rent in apartment complexes or own condos can't just have a new breaker put in at thier condo or apartment complex. Some places have large parking lots and would require a lot of work to wire all the spaces woth thier own chargers. Also while it's simple for you to get a 240v breaker put into your electrical box, what about an apartment complex that has a 100 cars ? It can require expensive work to support that much power drain and most people will commute during the day. That means all the load will happen after 6pm and before 9am.
Also in the mean time what do you do of you don't own your own home? Buy an ev and hope the complex you are renting at will put in a charger or two ? What about all the hoa fighting adding chargers and so on.
Like I saod this will affect the less well off.
Yes, you are right. It only makes sense if you jave the option to charge at home, at your work or similar.
Anyway, I'm happy I don't have to think about this kind of shit. I get on my bike and just drive, if something is broken, it's usually a $15 fix I can do by myself in an hour.
Dealers: We inflated the ever living shit out of the ALREADY inflated MSRP on all our EV's during a global recession and now no one wants to buy any of them!!
Manufacturer: The customers have spoken, EV's are dead.
Seriously, the electric f150 had a 100% markup at some dealerships. The build quality was absolute crap on those too.
The Tesla strategy
EVs aren’t working
EVs are the highest growth sector for personal vehicles but are growing a little less than expected, and we can’t make big profits yet
This is a huge point. The other considerations are: EVs are balls expensive compared to ICE counterparts and often require $500-2k worth of electrical work at your house (assuming you even own it) to put in a charger. If you live in an apartment, good luck.
And oh, btw, the chargers aren't standard. Each charging site has different plugs, apps you have to download, etc. Then there is the lack of charging stations that highlights the range anxiety people have with EVs.
Adoption would be so much faster if EVs cost $15-25k and there were adequate standardized charging options available.
the chargers aren't standard. Each charging site has different plugs
IDK where you're from, but in europe it's all standardized and all cars, regardless of brand, use the same plug for both AC and DC charging. The whole app/rfid tag mess is true though.
Are we doing it in a stupid way? Yes.
You know exactly where we're from.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!
EVs cost more up front and then cost less with fuel, maintenance, and longevity.
This is kind of true. A lot of the maintenance requirements for ICE vehicles is not needed for EVs. So you save money on things like oil changes and if you can charge at home then charging is probably cheaper than gas. But that battery probably needs to be replaced after about 5 years and that is a very expensive maintenance cost.
I have a 2016 leaf. I've changed the tires. That's the maintenance. It's like $3 to 'fill', and that's about the same as three gallons of ICE distance.
The battery is around 90% of what I bought it at.
I have yet to hit any of the problems people are afraid of, but I might just be lucky.
An independent analysis of 15,000 EV batteries finds that most don't need to be replaced until they're well over a decade old.
That might be true for older cars that didn't have good thermal management systems (like the old Nissan leaf) but not true anymore. Electric car batteries now regularly reach over 100k miles with only small degradation. If you baby it, it seems that 200k miles with only 10% range loss is to be expected now
No oil, timing belt, transmission. EVs are incredibly simple vehicles. Many years ago Tesla wanted a million mile battery, they are constantly getting better.
My EV is just over 5 years old and the battery is fine. I know it’s anecdotal but the batteries last longer than projected.
My 5 year estimate may actually be outdated already fortunately. First article popup about it shows 8 to 12 years now depending on the company and battery type. This is actually fantastic to see that as I was quite worried the tech would stagnate eventually.
I have a 2015 leaf and while the estimated battery range has gone from 90’s to 60’s on mileage, it’s still kicking and gets me around the city just fine.
the chargers aren’t standard. Each charging site has different plugs, apps you have to download, etc
-- US has 2.5 common plugs. An old one that’s mostly gone, the standard one, and Tesla. However Tesla opened theirs as a standard, and it looks like they will be de facto standard across the US
-- The protocols are compatible. The adapter for my Tesla to use the other standards is mostly plastic and dumb. You just need something to fit a different socket
-- yes, the state of apps sucks. Everyone wants to maximize their profit. However I thought most non-Tesla chargers had a credit card reader, so as long as you can find it and it works, you can use it without an app. Tesla is another story, but does seem t add a lot of convenience with their app
Yeah so I looked into this little while ago and I own my own house so in theory I can put the box in. The problem is I only have on the street parking and the house is set back away from the road and there's a garden between the road in the house.
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I'd have to run a long cable through the garden, over the fence, over the pedestrian walkway, over the grass verge and to the car. Someone is going to trip over it and then think they can sue me.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
Personally? I'd have an electrician install a standing charger by the curb. I might end up doing that if my wife switches to a plug in hybrid next year.
I'm not sure how that'll work with the easement though. But that's future me's problem.
Trench for an underground cable, and mount the charger on a pedestal near your car?
I don’t know about other brands but a Tesla charger can whitelist VINs to only charger your vehicle
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I’d have to run a long cable through the garden
Personally I'd replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space. Sure, it's ugly. But it's what billions of people around the world have.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
Most cities have a plan to do that (though it might just be a plan, with no funding allocated yet)... But there are challenges - in particular vandalism. They have been more successful/cheaper to maintain (and more likely to actually work when you park there) at locations with 24/7 security guards and quick police response times.
They also prioritise short term daytime parking as it's better to charge EVs when direct solar is available - far cheaper than other power source (except hydro, but hydro generally can't produce enough power). And they prioritise somewhere like a shopping district where you might only park for 45 minutes allowing dozens of people to charger their car per day instead of just one overnight. Shopping districts are also setup to prevent vandalism as well (and prevention is cheaper than repairs).
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV. In fact it's often free (or at least, included in the price of parking at the mall). It works well enough but it's never going to be as convenient as charging at home... those parking spaces are nearly always empty in my city, even though they're free people would rather pay for the convenience of charging overnight.
Personally I'd replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space.
Well I don't really want to have to do that if I can help it because if I did that I wouldn't really have a garden anymore, but also I don't think I can anyway because there's a grass verge and I don't think I own that, I think the city does, and I would have to pull that up to lay the driveway.
But also if I rented I wouldn't be able to do any of that anyway so they still need to go the street furniture route. I don't think vandalisms are particular problem because if they put down load of them they just become common and people would ignore them. Also it's a housing street, it's not a random street in the city so the only people around here are people who live around here and vandalising your own stuff seems pretty dumb. I'm sure it'll happen but I don't think it'll be a major problem.
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV.
In my experiences usually some prick with a pickup truck in them. Apparently it's actually a offence to park in them if you don't have an electric vehicle, but have yet to see the law enforce. One time I saw a cop parked in one so, there you go.
usually some prick with a pickup truck in them
Yes, but like vandalism, the best answer may be ubiquity. The asshole in the truck can’t get a kick out of offending people if they simply ignore him and goto the next chargers
They are planning to put them on streetlamps where i live. That seems like an effective idea.
Yep these are all true points, but not unexpected as with any innovation. Just like how computers were immensely expensive, and without standards for decades.
EVs are relatively new in the scope of technology. Capitalism just wants to make you think it's an issue. In reality this is gonna take time and lack the profits every company is striving for, which to them is a failure.
Yeah, I keep reading articles saying the same thing. Auto industry and dealers complaining EV sales are slowing down, yet as you said, it's the fastest growing category.
Of course profits aren't as great now coming off that high during expensive fuel prices the last few years, COVID related shortages causing prices to skyrocket, etc. Not to mention inflation decreasing the value of people's income.
Automakers also rely on dealers to sell vehicles and the dealers often make most of their money from repairs and maintenance. More than half the maintenance for ICE vehicles is just non-existent on EV's. Not a lot of stuff to do when you get your tires rotated and your brakes checked every 5000k miles.
Mercedes: the EV market is challenging at the moment.
Also mercedes: pay 100k for this car with limited autonomy and dubious software in early beta stages...
Carmakers: (High) increase of the selling prices of all cars, gas/EV.
Consummers: 20k for the simplest car, without options? No thanks, we can't afford that
Next year - subscription to maintain air pressure in the tyres
You can get an electric Benz way under 100k, probably half that. 100k is S-class pricing and it has always been this high.
You made me check, the cheapest I can buy one here is 70k EUR for the EQA:
EQA is the name of the new entry-level model to the all-electric world of Mercedes-EQ vehicles.
What a bargain for an entry level model
Huh, why is no one buying it? It's so affordable. For the low low price of ones yearly income
Yearly income is less than 70k for most Europeans. In Denmark the average income is higher, but the rest of Europe is lower, average would probably be less than 40k.
I know, it's a joke. But it's even more of a joke when the ev is double the yearly salery
Here's the honest truth though. You hear Benz and you don't think affordable car. Benz have always been fairly high priced
Typical misleading headline from pro-profiteering Business Insider on an article about how charging too much while people are suffering extreme inflation isn't a great idea but the self-serving execs are blaming the very concept of an alternative to killing millions of people a year 🤬
Bullshit. They make expensive electric cars because thats where the money was.
Here in the eu tons of people want to drive electric, but at the prices they offer in this economy, they'll only reach the wealthy.
The only reason these "c level" directors and managers are coming out and saying this is because the easy money is gone and now they really have to innovate. Which is expensive.
In the usa the poor don't really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Poor people also can't afford to buy brand new vehicles, so this is kind of a moot point, though something that will need to be addressed in the coming years.
Depend s in what you define poor. There is a huge segment of the population thay own leases vehicles that don't own a home
Well I'm using the same designation of 'poor' as you were in the above comment. I'd say those with leased vehicles would definitely not fall into the category of poor.
Lots of people lease cars that they can't afford and are basicly car poor. I was house poor when we bought our first house. Lots of low cost meals like pasta and bologna sandwiches so we could make payments while buying furniture and making repairs
Being car poor and house poor isn't being poor.
Home owners and/or people getting brand new cars every 2-3 years have decent incomes and if you fall into one of these two groups while considering yourself poor, it's because you're overspending not because you don't have enough income to meet the bare minimum for survival. Those are the people who are poor.
Furthermore, in your original comment you talked about poor people not having anywhere to charge their vehicle and now you're telling me you meant homeowners who bought too much house for their income while also owning a brand new car? Give me a break. I'm sure you can find an extra $500 to have a charger installed.
In the usa the poor don’t really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
You mean to tell me "the poor" don't have access to electricity? How poor are we talking exactly? Because I'm thinking enough money to spend, say, $30k on a brand new car... which is still pretty well off.
I mean sure, if you live in a cheap inner city apartment, then you might not have a garage to park/charge in. But I bet a lot of people in that situation have access to public transit anyway - they're not really the target market for cars in general.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Most people charge their EV overnight. It'd be even better to charge during the day though, when electricity (can be) cheaper thanks to solar power.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Yeah you're going to have to share a source for that. Sounds hard to believe.
In the UK, public fast chargers are mostly around the 80p/kwh Mark. With a decently light foot and getting 4 miles per kwh, that's 20p a mile.
With gas at £1.55 a litre, and a 60mpg (UK) hybrid, that's about 12p a mile.
Home charging an ev on an appropriate tariff costs about 7p/kwh, or about 1.75p per mile.
Its normally only the very fastest chargers that are around 80p, but then there are alternative options that are cheaper if you want ultra high speed and not get robbed blind, such as Tesla that is almost half what Instavolt charge.
You realize that parking garages do not allow you to plug your car into random sockets and most don't have sockets anywhere near the cars
Mist people who own a home or are Lucky enough to love some where that has chargers they can use you mean.
There was a lot of stuff in that comment that was out of touch with what it's like to have not or have little.
People who are barely making ends meet don’t usually buy new cars. They buy used. You can get something tolerable for a hell of a lot less than 30k.
Plus, if you’re poor, there’s a good chance you live in a shitty (maybe unsafe) neighborhood. You might not have a driveway, never mind a garage. If you leave your car to charge overnight, you have to worry about some asshole unplugging it, or even taking/vandalizing the extension cord.
FTFY: EVs aren't working to rise profits and bonuses.
Auto makers: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"
So we can start focusing on real solutions to climate change. Like building cities that don’t depend on cars for transportation. Right… right?
It's already hard to convince people to use EVs, convincing them to use public transportation is even harder. It's completely understandable why they don't want to use public transportation tho: it kinda sucks in most countries. Here in germany it's simply unreliable. If you use it to get to work, you can expect to get there late quite frequently and the same goes for the way home.
Fixing the issues public transportation has and making cities less car dependent takes time and we don't really have that much anymore. EVs aren't perfect but it's a compromise.
If you want to talk about real solutions to climate change I wouldn't aim as consumer facing things like cars or household recycling. That's all BS to make people focus on what their role in it is to distract from the fact that the vast majority of emissions come from things like:
Industrial and manufacturing processes
Electricity and heat generation
Transportation (with vast majority being bunker fueled chips, and agriculture.
Me getting 25mpg versus 30 ain't moving the needle on the emissions numbers the same way moving to renewables for electricity generation and eliminating shipping emissions would. Or mitigating agricultural emissions which produces tons of the worst kinds of greenhouse gasses (methan and nitrous oxide).
And then we have fugative emissions from unintentional leaks or more accurately irresponsible processes and maintenance from things like fracking, oil/gas extraction and transport. Quite literally just drilling into gas and releasing it into the air.
But yea, my Honda is the problem.
I'm not saying everyone has a part to play, but don't let the arguments and focus be on anything other than the big culprits of greenhouse gas emissions. We could pass meaningful regulations and provide meaningful incentives and actually move the needle on green house gasses.
Focusing on constructing transit oriented cities is a systems based solution to climate change. Not an individual consumer facing solution.
Industrial and manufacturing processes Electricity and heat generation Transportation (with vast majority being bunker fueled chips, and agriculture.
Unfortunately I don't run an industrial manufacturing process or shipping company... so there's not much I can do there other than prefer to buy products/services that involve fewer emissions.
I've installed solar on my home... and some day I'll probably add a battery (when they're cheaper), but that's about all I can do.
So for me at least, this stuff isn't a huge priority. I'm already doing everything I can.
Me getting 25mpg versus 30 ain’t moving the needle on the emissions
Huh? That's almost a 20% reduction in your vehicle emissions and private transport is a major contributor to greenhouse gasses. It'd definitely "move the needle".
I’m not saying everyone has a part to play
I am. Might be a small part for some, but it's a part. It could be as simple as using LED lighting instead of incandescents (10x lower emissions, and 10x lower power bill) or cooking with induction instead of gas (4x lower emissions, boils water 2x faster, and cheaper though how much depends on your gas prices).
Those two changes I suggested don't even cost any money. They save money.
A lot of other changes also save money - green hydrogen, for example, was $4/kg two years ago and is $3/kg today... it was projected to be cheaper than gas some time between 2027 and 2040... but thanks to Russia's war it's already cheaper than gas now in some parts of the world. Suddenly the industry is scrambling to accelerate that transition.
The liquid natural gas industry has no long term future and not because of emissions - it's just not going to be const competitive for much longer.
"building cities"
Well, one can attempt to make it easier going forward but this isn't sim city where you can just demolish your entire infrastructure and remake it to suit your needs.
Doing so will take decades to even start to have an impact on personal vehicle usage. Decades we don't really have.
We used to lift cities up to support sewer systems and now adding relatively simple infrastructure seems out of reach. Neoliberalism has completely ruined our ability to invest in public infrastructure
I’m not really saying it can be done overnight. But imagine if all the money (heck even half the money) that went into trying to build electric cars went into building some good transit systems supported by strong transit oriented design. It would have done way more to tackle climate change than making cars EVs. It’s a long term process but one that far more likely to make a difference than EVs.
Great cities are handled, now how do we make rural areas work without cars?
I never said rural areas should go without cars.
What about banning all trade shipping?
Trade shipping is incredibly efficient when it comes to moving large quantities of goods. Transportation, as a whole, consumes about a quarter of the world's energy output. Meanwhile industry verges on near 60%. A large portion of that is refining and manufacturing coupled with new construction.
While I understand that people's immediate reaction is that we need more EVs or, on the extreme end, somehow restrict cars. People also need to understand that's not the sector that is going to have the most corrective impact on the coming climate disasters.
Sadly, they are. The median new car price in the US last year was $46k.
Sad? Seems like people had more money then they needed and were buying cars 2x as expensive as they needed.
You would think, but the sad part it’s people over-extending themselves more for something they really can’t afford
I want an EV.
I have the money for an EV.
I put a down payment on an EV back in April 2022.
It still hasn’t been ordered, because the manufacturer won’t permit the dealership to order any, and is barely shipping any to Canada, even though they advertise it as their flagship EV.
Meanwhile, lots in the US are full of unsold units.
Which manufacturer?
Hyundai
Maybe it is price. Maybe we all finally realized Musk is a right wing piece of shit, even worse than all the other corporate thieves.
... But Tesla is far from the only manufacturer, that produces totally overpriced and shitty EVs
Kinda reminds me of the same argument to why businesses can't find employees, they aren't able to exploit them enough.
Sounds like they are asking for free government money
EVs are expensive because of the battery.
A cheap car is not a novelty, specially for asian manufacturers. There is no cheap EV because there is no cheap big ion-li battery.
Toyota strategy of focus on hybrid and hydrogen seemed weird to me. But over the years has been started to make sense.
The world needs a better battery. Until that, EVs will be heavy and expensive.
Very much this. Lithium batteries are the best battery we’ve got (at manufacturing scale) so far in terms of energy storage density, but the best we’ve got isn’t very good.
Gasoline has an energy storage density of around 13 MJ/kg. That’s a ton of energy, so much so that a vehicle can waste most of it generating so much heat that we have to bolt on a cooling system (with the associated weight) and still have enough to go highway speeds for hundreds of miles on a quantity of fuel weighing less than one of the passengers.
Toyota loves hydrogen because it’s got a storage density slightly higher than gasoline. Hydrogen has some serious volume and storage issues, but the density is there.
Contrast that with lithium ion batteries at ~0.7 MJ/kg (for the really good ones, which usually aren’t used in cars). Less waste heat, to be sure, but the bulk of the vehicles weight, the main factor in speed and travel distance, is the insane amount of material necessary to store the “fuel”.
Electric motors are far more efficient than ICE, but we need orders-of-magnitude improvements in battery storage density before EV can really take advantage of the greater efficiency. Until then manufacturers don’t have a choice, EV will be heavy and thus expensive.
Hydrogen cars are basically EVs without the giant battery. So it neatly avoids the huge cost and weight problem. Which is why Toyota thinks they are the future.
Charging infrastructure is still pretty shit compared to refueling a gas car as well.
Yes and no.
The EV refueling infrastructure while on the road is kinda shit.
The home refueling infrastructure for gasoline cars is really, really shit.
And so if you aren't a home owner then the ev refuling is shit.
Maybe right now but that isn't a difficult problem to solve considering all homes have electricity readily available.
And how'd you go about it if you're in an apartment? Lower a few extenders from your window?
Believe it or not, the electricity also runs outside under the ground.
It's an expensive problem to solve. Charging stations aren't cheap nor is getting an electrician to come out and run wiring and panels for a hundred cars even if it's just 120 then it eill take 8-12 hours for each car to charge.
I've lived in some places that have giant parking lots for the cars which means they have to dig it up to run wiring and create stations at each spot. That can reduce the amount of cars that can be parked which in some places would benillegal
Slow charging speeds at home/work are fine, nobody is burning 100% of their range daily on their commute. The people with 200 mile daily commutes are not buying EVs
I've spent time in the Midwest and most residential parking lots already have outlets all over the place for block hearers in the winter. If a tiny apartment complex in North Dakota can do it, so can everyone else.
No one said they couldn't do it. It's just that it isn't done..so what happens when you buy an ev and move some where woth no charging ? I am in north jersey and I haven't see a complex here condo or apartment that has outlets anywhere in the parking lot
Even still , unless they are 240v welcome to 2-3 miles per hour charging rate on a ev. Hope you don't plan on traveling far.
It's not that it isn't done, it's that EVs have only been on the scene for a few years and infrastructure hasn't caught up yet. The state of things today doesn't represent how things have always been in the past or will be in the future. When gasoline cars first came out, we didn't have gas stations on every corner either, but the folks living in 1910 managed to figure things out. I think we can do the same.
Except no one set an insane time limit of when everyone had to switch over from horses to gasoline cars. So infrastructure was bale to grow out along the slow pace of car purchases. But since the 1980s the amount of cars per family have sky rocketed and switching from gasoline to electric isn't something that will happen in a decade
And if you’re in a European city without off-road parking, at-home refuelling for EVs is shit too.
I love these crazy comparisons you people make. Nobody gives a fuck if they have to stop 2 minutes to refuel. 5 minutes if there is a line. Nobody wants to take an hour long wait for a charge port.
It's like none of you have ever traveled for the holidays.
Yeah, but that totally makes sense if no one is buying. It's just, that no one is buying, because automakers aren't really interested in EVs, since gas powered have bigger margins, meaning initial manufacturing cost is lower, so they can jack the prices. When they do it with EVs it's getting very ridiculous very fast.
Maybe in your country, here the majority of sold cars are electric. And the charging network is great. (Switzerland)
Yeah, I'm from Germany. So we are big petrol heads over here ...
Also, my point was about pricing, is that different in Switzerland? I would doubt that.
Well, the majority of Swiss people drives overpriced SUVs anyway.. so I guess the margins are pretty good
And people here see the saving potential if you use less than 0.35 CHF/kWh 🔋 power compared the often more than 2.0 CHF/L ⛽️ power
1L of ⛽️ has about 10kWh but energy going to the street is way less compared to EV
I hate the SUV trend as a whole, but especially in EVs it's just so non-sensical. Trying to build more resourceconsious vehicles, but at the same time building them twice as big and heavy as they need to be, while trying to achieve range ...
At the root of this issue is dealership exclusivity. Otherwise new companies would make them cheaper sell them privately and dominate that market. Tesla did some of this but still wanted to be premium. We need generic Tesla to come out, and the other EV companies are obsessed with premium.
While it's a factor it probably isn't the root of the problem. The problem is car manufacturers are building the cars faster than the market is growing and at high price points than consumers want in a time of economic difficulty and inflation.
We're still seeing build out of electric infrastructure, expensive cars vs petrol cars, and a relatively small second hand market (which also drives infrastructure expansion). It also doesn't help that countries are pushing back promises to ban non-EV car sales. Dealership monopolies certainly exacerbate all those problems.
This story headline is nonsense though. EVs are working and are growing. The story is actually that car companies have made expensive attempts at grabbing market share which haven't worked and are now counting the costs. They're delaying the rate of growth in production, not reducing production - significant difference.
The problem is charging. Wven if you being out entry level ev chars people want. Where will people who don't own a home charge them ?
Imagine working a 9 hour shift plus your commute and then having to drive out of your way for a public charging place. Then wait 45mins + for an 80% charge. Then imagine the few charging spots at the location being full so you have to wait even longer to charge it
I think the pricing is actually fine for the cars because people who are going to actually buy an ev would be shopping for an ice car in the same proce range. Those who would buy a lower price range would face way more hurdles while owning an ev
I have a buddy who does this and it’s not as bad as you make it seem. Once a week or so, he goes to a supercharger for an hour or so to top off. Obviously it all depends on your daily usage and the range of the vehicle but it’s just not this huge personal tragedy people describe it as. It’s a minor hassle to sit around for an hour once a week
It’s an hour I would have had to spend doing anything else though, and with limited time already I’d rather not spend an hour sat doing nothing waiting for my car to charge.
I'm sure that's a factor, but I'm pretty skeptical that it's the root
The elites don't want you to know this, but you can be personally responsible for getting your city off of car addiction.
Similar to a headline that says "Food products not working", without mentioning escalating costs for the average person. Those that could afford and early adopters are limited.
China ate their lunch, now they cry
This is the best summary I could come up with:
With signs of growing inventory and slowing sales, auto industry executives admitted this week that their ambitious electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy, at least in the near term.
Several C-Suite leaders at some of the biggest carmakers voiced fresh unease about the electric car market's growth as concerns over the viability of these vehicles put their multi-billion-dollar electrification strategies at risk.
Even Tesla's Elon Musk warned on a recent earnings call that economic concerns would lead to waning vehicle demand, even for the long-time EV market leader.
These cars are taking dealers longer to sell compared with their gas counterparts as the next wave of buyers focus on cost, infrastructure challenges, and lifestyle barriers to adopting.
In July, the company extended its self-imposed deadline to hit annual electric vehicle production of 600,000 by a year, and abandoned a 2026 target to build 2 million EVs.
"People are finally seeing reality," Toyota Motor Chairman Akio Toyoda said at the Japan Mobility Show, the Wall Street Journal reported.
The original article contains 566 words, the summary contains 167 words. Saved 70%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Make. An. Affordable. Car.
Why does every new ev for the US have to be mega deluxe luxury SUV? No one in the US is buying your affordable EV because you only sell them in Europe!
Yeah, a surprising number of people don't want these hyper complex cars with thousands of microchips and millions of lines of code operating them. Give me an electric 2012 Honda fit/Toyota matrix equivalent that just fucking works and costs $20k or less new.
Yes please. I want my car to work without tracking and software updates.
Keep dreaming.
I’m just refusing to buy a car newer than 2008. Really an arbitrary cutoff, but that seems to be about when every car started to get as many electronics into them as possible.
Yeah, I don't care about color changing LEDs in the trim or talking computers, just give me a cheap android-auto-compatible head unit (replaceable please, none of that integrated bullshit), a cheap instrument cluster and a real handbrake.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/best-new-cars-under-20000
An EV at that price was always unrealistic the battery is 75% that cost. But an ICE under 20 is easy. People just want nicer shit when they see the vehicles or have to head to Mitsubishi.
Everyone's super obsessed with 300-400 mi ranges though. 100mi would be totally fine for most people and would require a small fraction of the battery (bigger batteries give decreasing returns)
Until it's not, and then it's an expensive pain. I travel 500 + 700 miles three times a year and renting a car for a week isn't viable. There are enough edge cases just like that for most people.
Nobody wants to stop for 25 minutes (if you are lucky and don't have to wait in queue) on their longer trips.
The actual solution you agree looking for is PHEV. That's the middle ground that's perfect for most individuals.
The phev f150 is the most functional auto/tool for travel and work I've ever seen.
It’s the batteries. They are the biggest cost in an EV. The margins on such a car would be too low. Even the new Volvo XC30 is 35k plus which is one of the cheapest and most barebones EV.
But Volvos have never been cheap. Also big and heavy forever.
Make an eFit for $15 - 20k and sell a bazillion of them.
Good luck finding enough batteries for that many cars. That’s the entire problem right now. They can’t scale the production to the point that will make the production of econobox EVs reasonably profitable. Because the worldwide production capacity of lithium batteries is lagging behind the demand right now. Also why the cost of the batteries are high.
Well the answer is right there - smaller cars, smaller packs. Can power 2 or 3 fit sized EV's for every lightning F150 pack.
Got exactly that with a VW e up.
You know that the e up was cancelled by VW?
Yes
I currently lease a 2 years old Renault Zoe (very compact car) for 200€ a month (0€ upfront). It was a special deal in Germany for a few months. I charge at home with solar panels and rarely drive more than the 300-350km range.
It honestly feels like the holy grail of electro mobility.
And if you had an ICE car you would be spending around that 200 just on fuel, as it is with both my kids and their baby EVs, its like having a free car.
There’s no margins there. Just like in real estate, the best margins are at the high end. They won’t make affordable cars while they can make more money on expensive ones.
Other companies can, but the big ones can't? Yeah, no. I don't buy that for a second.
Like who do you mean when you say other companies?
BYD seem to be making good.
Isn’t that a Chinese company? They can probably get the batteries for cheaper than non-Chinese companies. Batteries are the biggest cost in a econo EV
Because people are buying all the mid- and high-end EVs. If it's more profitable, there's some sense to it until that saturates (although it sounds like that's finally happening maybe)
GM tried real hard for the lower-end. And cars like the Bolt EUV ended up actually really good especially for the price. Then they cancelled it because they just weren't making enough money or volume or scaling like they wanted.
And at the moment ALL the carmakers have gone kinda nuts with pricing. And sales are still super strong overall. Just...softening. Apparently especially for EVs.
Also, people are paying way, way too much for cars. It's insane how many people making $60,000 a year or less are buying cars worth almost that much, and taking out these ridiculous loans. I guess the interest rate hikes are putting a little damper on it, but it's been just stupid.
The Bolt EUV is the only reason we have an electric car now (personally, I would have gotten the smaller and cheaper Bolt but it was a family decision to go with the EUV). It was reasonable for what you get. The only downside is the slower charging compared to other EVs but I don't plan on taking it for longer trips. We have an ICE for that.
Because car manufacturers don't give two shits what people need, nor what's best for the environment, they're in the profit making business, and that's all that matters.
We're at the point now where this shouldn't need to be pointed out, the fact it does goes to show just how successful (from their viewpoint of course) their propaganda is..
This. It's even worse in Australia. The only affordable ev is a Tesla 3 @ 55k AUD. Which even then is out of reach of most.
Why not make a 30k EV? Penetrate the majority of consumers.
I'm on a great wage and even I shake my head at 80-120k range of most EVs here. Then you get bwm releasing 180k+ EVs.. who exactly is buying them?
When you price a technology out of the reach of people, the tech isn't the failure.
You can buy a BYd Dolphin for $38k ($24kusd) mate.
https://bydautomotive.com.au/configurator/byd-dolphin?ref=website
I went for a hoon in a BYD the other day, it was awesome fun. Not the dolphin, the other A*.* one that's everywhere.
I believe they're a cheap EV but it has all the bells and whistles, goes like the clappers, can do cool stuff like start the AC remotely so by the time you walk from work to your carpark it's nice and comfortable, gets 450ish on a charge and can be topped up overnight on a standard power point for most people's commute.
I'm so keen to own an EV, all I need is a justification... Right now I have a work vehicle that carries a tonne (literally) at all times which makes an EV less appealing.
Because batteries are expensive. So by default you're targeting a luxury price, whether it's luxury sports car or a luxury SUV.
Electric cars make zero sense for the less well off. No one wants to go and sit some where for 45 minutes for 80% of a charge when they can go tonangas station and fully gas up a car in less than Five minutes. Also that is if there isn't a line to one of the few public charging. Imagine working a shit job for 40k a year and then having to go and sit and wait for wven an hour to get to charge your car that then takes an hour to charge it self
Imagine working 40 hours a week and having to breathe gas fumes while you bike to work because your homeowners insurance doubled and now you can’t afford your ICE car.
No one thinks the transition to electric will be fun but it’s necessary because we waited 30 years to even acknowledge climate change. If you want to drive an ICE, you should have to pay for the destruction you’re causing so we can subsidize public transport. But failing that, EVs are the bare minimum.
Check your watch - it's been 50 fucking years. At least.
I guess you are walking around with your phone until it dies, charge it for 5mins and then repeat? ... or do you just plug it in over night or when you are not using it? That's really not a good point you are bringing up here. You could critisize, that there are only few public charging stations (with user friendly terms) or what the comment you answered to is critisizing or even that there are so few alternatives for (really) climate friendly transport, but your point is just 'what if I am not able to think at all??'
I think the assumption in Pasta4u's scenario is that home charging overnight is not an option.
As is the case for the majority of people, especially people living in cities
If you own your own home with off street parking, this is established and known technology. Still kind of expensive, but for example, I just got a new circuit for a charger, for less than a new circuit for an induction range.
The place we need to put the most effort into is rental places or HOAs with off street parking. We have the technology, we know how to do it, but there’s a mismatch between who pays and who benefits. It’s a people problem. If the landlord/HOA pays, how can we help them see the benefit so they’ll be willing to? Eventually this will solve itself when EVs become popular enough that people will be unwilling to rent or live there, but now it’s an obstacle. A purely human obstacle
The less well of typically do bot own thier own homes.
More to the point people who rent in apartment complexes or own condos can't just have a new breaker put in at thier condo or apartment complex. Some places have large parking lots and would require a lot of work to wire all the spaces woth thier own chargers. Also while it's simple for you to get a 240v breaker put into your electrical box, what about an apartment complex that has a 100 cars ? It can require expensive work to support that much power drain and most people will commute during the day. That means all the load will happen after 6pm and before 9am.
Also in the mean time what do you do of you don't own your own home? Buy an ev and hope the complex you are renting at will put in a charger or two ? What about all the hoa fighting adding chargers and so on.
Like I saod this will affect the less well off.
Yes, you are right. It only makes sense if you jave the option to charge at home, at your work or similar. Anyway, I'm happy I don't have to think about this kind of shit. I get on my bike and just drive, if something is broken, it's usually a $15 fix I can do by myself in an hour.
Dealers: We inflated the ever living shit out of the ALREADY inflated MSRP on all our EV's during a global recession and now no one wants to buy any of them!!
Manufacturer: The customers have spoken, EV's are dead.
Seriously, the electric f150 had a 100% markup at some dealerships. The build quality was absolute crap on those too.
The Tesla strategy
EVs are the highest growth sector for personal vehicles but are growing a little less than expected, and we can’t make big profits yet
This is a huge point. The other considerations are: EVs are balls expensive compared to ICE counterparts and often require $500-2k worth of electrical work at your house (assuming you even own it) to put in a charger. If you live in an apartment, good luck.
And oh, btw, the chargers aren't standard. Each charging site has different plugs, apps you have to download, etc. Then there is the lack of charging stations that highlights the range anxiety people have with EVs.
Adoption would be so much faster if EVs cost $15-25k and there were adequate standardized charging options available.
IDK where you're from, but in europe it's all standardized and all cars, regardless of brand, use the same plug for both AC and DC charging. The whole app/rfid tag mess is true though.
Are we doing it in a stupid way? Yes.
You know exactly where we're from.
AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!
EVs cost more up front and then cost less with fuel, maintenance, and longevity.
This is kind of true. A lot of the maintenance requirements for ICE vehicles is not needed for EVs. So you save money on things like oil changes and if you can charge at home then charging is probably cheaper than gas. But that battery probably needs to be replaced after about 5 years and that is a very expensive maintenance cost.
I have a 2016 leaf. I've changed the tires. That's the maintenance. It's like $3 to 'fill', and that's about the same as three gallons of ICE distance.
The battery is around 90% of what I bought it at.
I have yet to hit any of the problems people are afraid of, but I might just be lucky.
Research suggests otherwise.
That might be true for older cars that didn't have good thermal management systems (like the old Nissan leaf) but not true anymore. Electric car batteries now regularly reach over 100k miles with only small degradation. If you baby it, it seems that 200k miles with only 10% range loss is to be expected now
No oil, timing belt, transmission. EVs are incredibly simple vehicles. Many years ago Tesla wanted a million mile battery, they are constantly getting better.
My EV is just over 5 years old and the battery is fine. I know it’s anecdotal but the batteries last longer than projected.
My 5 year estimate may actually be outdated already fortunately. First article popup about it shows 8 to 12 years now depending on the company and battery type. This is actually fantastic to see that as I was quite worried the tech would stagnate eventually.
https://www.pcmag.com/news/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last-study-says-longer-than-you-think
I have a 2015 leaf and while the estimated battery range has gone from 90’s to 60’s on mileage, it’s still kicking and gets me around the city just fine.
-- US has 2.5 common plugs. An old one that’s mostly gone, the standard one, and Tesla. However Tesla opened theirs as a standard, and it looks like they will be de facto standard across the US
-- The protocols are compatible. The adapter for my Tesla to use the other standards is mostly plastic and dumb. You just need something to fit a different socket
-- yes, the state of apps sucks. Everyone wants to maximize their profit. However I thought most non-Tesla chargers had a credit card reader, so as long as you can find it and it works, you can use it without an app. Tesla is another story, but does seem t add a lot of convenience with their app
Yeah so I looked into this little while ago and I own my own house so in theory I can put the box in. The problem is I only have on the street parking and the house is set back away from the road and there's a garden between the road in the house.
So how the bleeding hell am I supposed to charge a car? I'd have to run a long cable through the garden, over the fence, over the pedestrian walkway, over the grass verge and to the car. Someone is going to trip over it and then think they can sue me.
Or the government could just install a street furniture like they do parking metres, but I have no way to force them to do that.
Personally? I'd have an electrician install a standing charger by the curb. I might end up doing that if my wife switches to a plug in hybrid next year.
I'm not sure how that'll work with the easement though. But that's future me's problem.
Trench for an underground cable, and mount the charger on a pedestal near your car?
I don’t know about other brands but a Tesla charger can whitelist VINs to only charger your vehicle
Personally I'd replace part of the garden with a driveway and parking space. Sure, it's ugly. But it's what billions of people around the world have.
Most cities have a plan to do that (though it might just be a plan, with no funding allocated yet)... But there are challenges - in particular vandalism. They have been more successful/cheaper to maintain (and more likely to actually work when you park there) at locations with 24/7 security guards and quick police response times.
They also prioritise short term daytime parking as it's better to charge EVs when direct solar is available - far cheaper than other power source (except hydro, but hydro generally can't produce enough power). And they prioritise somewhere like a shopping district where you might only park for 45 minutes allowing dozens of people to charger their car per day instead of just one overnight. Shopping districts are also setup to prevent vandalism as well (and prevention is cheaper than repairs).
Every shopping mall in my city already has a parking spaces where you can charge an EV. In fact it's often free (or at least, included in the price of parking at the mall). It works well enough but it's never going to be as convenient as charging at home... those parking spaces are nearly always empty in my city, even though they're free people would rather pay for the convenience of charging overnight.
Well I don't really want to have to do that if I can help it because if I did that I wouldn't really have a garden anymore, but also I don't think I can anyway because there's a grass verge and I don't think I own that, I think the city does, and I would have to pull that up to lay the driveway.
But also if I rented I wouldn't be able to do any of that anyway so they still need to go the street furniture route. I don't think vandalisms are particular problem because if they put down load of them they just become common and people would ignore them. Also it's a housing street, it's not a random street in the city so the only people around here are people who live around here and vandalising your own stuff seems pretty dumb. I'm sure it'll happen but I don't think it'll be a major problem.
In my experiences usually some prick with a pickup truck in them. Apparently it's actually a offence to park in them if you don't have an electric vehicle, but have yet to see the law enforce. One time I saw a cop parked in one so, there you go.
Yes, but like vandalism, the best answer may be ubiquity. The asshole in the truck can’t get a kick out of offending people if they simply ignore him and goto the next chargers
They are planning to put them on streetlamps where i live. That seems like an effective idea.
Yep these are all true points, but not unexpected as with any innovation. Just like how computers were immensely expensive, and without standards for decades.
EVs are relatively new in the scope of technology. Capitalism just wants to make you think it's an issue. In reality this is gonna take time and lack the profits every company is striving for, which to them is a failure.
Yeah, I keep reading articles saying the same thing. Auto industry and dealers complaining EV sales are slowing down, yet as you said, it's the fastest growing category.
Of course profits aren't as great now coming off that high during expensive fuel prices the last few years, COVID related shortages causing prices to skyrocket, etc. Not to mention inflation decreasing the value of people's income.
Automakers also rely on dealers to sell vehicles and the dealers often make most of their money from repairs and maintenance. More than half the maintenance for ICE vehicles is just non-existent on EV's. Not a lot of stuff to do when you get your tires rotated and your brakes checked every 5000k miles.
Mercedes: the EV market is challenging at the moment.
Also mercedes: pay 100k for this car with limited autonomy and dubious software in early beta stages...
Carmakers: (High) increase of the selling prices of all cars, gas/EV.
Consummers: 20k for the simplest car, without options? No thanks, we can't afford that
Next year - subscription to maintain air pressure in the tyres
You can get an electric Benz way under 100k, probably half that. 100k is S-class pricing and it has always been this high.
You made me check, the cheapest I can buy one here is 70k EUR for the EQA:
What a bargain for an entry level model
Huh, why is no one buying it? It's so affordable. For the low low price of ones yearly income
Yearly income is less than 70k for most Europeans. In Denmark the average income is higher, but the rest of Europe is lower, average would probably be less than 40k.
I know, it's a joke. But it's even more of a joke when the ev is double the yearly salery
Here's the honest truth though. You hear Benz and you don't think affordable car. Benz have always been fairly high priced
Typical misleading headline from pro-profiteering Business Insider on an article about how charging too much while people are suffering extreme inflation isn't a great idea but the self-serving execs are blaming the very concept of an alternative to killing millions of people a year 🤬
Bullshit. They make expensive electric cars because thats where the money was. Here in the eu tons of people want to drive electric, but at the prices they offer in this economy, they'll only reach the wealthy.
The only reason these "c level" directors and managers are coming out and saying this is because the easy money is gone and now they really have to innovate. Which is expensive.
In the usa the poor don't really have anywhere to charge these cars even if they were cheap enough to afford.
It is impossible to compete with a less than five minute fill up for 300+ miles range.
Not to mention that reports place charging on public charges to be more costly than gas.
Poor people also can't afford to buy brand new vehicles, so this is kind of a moot point, though something that will need to be addressed in the coming years.
Depend s in what you define poor. There is a huge segment of the population thay own leases vehicles that don't own a home
Well I'm using the same designation of 'poor' as you were in the above comment. I'd say those with leased vehicles would definitely not fall into the category of poor.
Lots of people lease cars that they can't afford and are basicly car poor. I was house poor when we bought our first house. Lots of low cost meals like pasta and bologna sandwiches so we could make payments while buying furniture and making repairs
Being car poor and house poor isn't being poor.
Home owners and/or people getting brand new cars every 2-3 years have decent incomes and if you fall into one of these two groups while considering yourself poor, it's because you're overspending not because you don't have enough income to meet the bare minimum for survival. Those are the people who are poor.
Furthermore, in your original comment you talked about poor people not having anywhere to charge their vehicle and now you're telling me you meant homeowners who bought too much house for their income while also owning a brand new car? Give me a break. I'm sure you can find an extra $500 to have a charger installed.
You mean to tell me "the poor" don't have access to electricity? How poor are we talking exactly? Because I'm thinking enough money to spend, say, $30k on a brand new car... which is still pretty well off.
I mean sure, if you live in a cheap inner city apartment, then you might not have a garage to park/charge in. But I bet a lot of people in that situation have access to public transit anyway - they're not really the target market for cars in general.
Most people charge their EV overnight. It'd be even better to charge during the day though, when electricity (can be) cheaper thanks to solar power.
Yeah you're going to have to share a source for that. Sounds hard to believe.
In the UK, public fast chargers are mostly around the 80p/kwh Mark. With a decently light foot and getting 4 miles per kwh, that's 20p a mile. With gas at £1.55 a litre, and a 60mpg (UK) hybrid, that's about 12p a mile.
Home charging an ev on an appropriate tariff costs about 7p/kwh, or about 1.75p per mile.
Public charging is fucking expensive.
Very few public chargers are 80p a kwh, its about half that: https://pod-point.com/guides/driver/cost-of-charging-electric-car
Its normally only the very fastest chargers that are around 80p, but then there are alternative options that are cheaper if you want ultra high speed and not get robbed blind, such as Tesla that is almost half what Instavolt charge.
You realize that parking garages do not allow you to plug your car into random sockets and most don't have sockets anywhere near the cars
Mist people who own a home or are Lucky enough to love some where that has chargers they can use you mean.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ev-charging-cost-versus-gas-car-truck-suv-2023-7
There was a lot of stuff in that comment that was out of touch with what it's like to have not or have little.
People who are barely making ends meet don’t usually buy new cars. They buy used. You can get something tolerable for a hell of a lot less than 30k.
Plus, if you’re poor, there’s a good chance you live in a shitty (maybe unsafe) neighborhood. You might not have a driveway, never mind a garage. If you leave your car to charge overnight, you have to worry about some asshole unplugging it, or even taking/vandalizing the extension cord.
FTFY: EVs aren't working to rise profits and bonuses.
Auto makers: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"
So we can start focusing on real solutions to climate change. Like building cities that don’t depend on cars for transportation. Right… right?
It's already hard to convince people to use EVs, convincing them to use public transportation is even harder. It's completely understandable why they don't want to use public transportation tho: it kinda sucks in most countries. Here in germany it's simply unreliable. If you use it to get to work, you can expect to get there late quite frequently and the same goes for the way home. Fixing the issues public transportation has and making cities less car dependent takes time and we don't really have that much anymore. EVs aren't perfect but it's a compromise.
If you want to talk about real solutions to climate change I wouldn't aim as consumer facing things like cars or household recycling. That's all BS to make people focus on what their role in it is to distract from the fact that the vast majority of emissions come from things like:
Industrial and manufacturing processes Electricity and heat generation Transportation (with vast majority being bunker fueled chips, and agriculture.
Me getting 25mpg versus 30 ain't moving the needle on the emissions numbers the same way moving to renewables for electricity generation and eliminating shipping emissions would. Or mitigating agricultural emissions which produces tons of the worst kinds of greenhouse gasses (methan and nitrous oxide).
And then we have fugative emissions from unintentional leaks or more accurately irresponsible processes and maintenance from things like fracking, oil/gas extraction and transport. Quite literally just drilling into gas and releasing it into the air.
But yea, my Honda is the problem.
I'm not saying everyone has a part to play, but don't let the arguments and focus be on anything other than the big culprits of greenhouse gas emissions. We could pass meaningful regulations and provide meaningful incentives and actually move the needle on green house gasses.
Focusing on constructing transit oriented cities is a systems based solution to climate change. Not an individual consumer facing solution.
Unfortunately I don't run an industrial manufacturing process or shipping company... so there's not much I can do there other than prefer to buy products/services that involve fewer emissions.
I've installed solar on my home... and some day I'll probably add a battery (when they're cheaper), but that's about all I can do.
So for me at least, this stuff isn't a huge priority. I'm already doing everything I can.
Huh? That's almost a 20% reduction in your vehicle emissions and private transport is a major contributor to greenhouse gasses. It'd definitely "move the needle".
I am. Might be a small part for some, but it's a part. It could be as simple as using LED lighting instead of incandescents (10x lower emissions, and 10x lower power bill) or cooking with induction instead of gas (4x lower emissions, boils water 2x faster, and cheaper though how much depends on your gas prices).
Those two changes I suggested don't even cost any money. They save money.
A lot of other changes also save money - green hydrogen, for example, was $4/kg two years ago and is $3/kg today... it was projected to be cheaper than gas some time between 2027 and 2040... but thanks to Russia's war it's already cheaper than gas now in some parts of the world. Suddenly the industry is scrambling to accelerate that transition.
The liquid natural gas industry has no long term future and not because of emissions - it's just not going to be const competitive for much longer.
"building cities"
Well, one can attempt to make it easier going forward but this isn't sim city where you can just demolish your entire infrastructure and remake it to suit your needs.
Doing so will take decades to even start to have an impact on personal vehicle usage. Decades we don't really have.
We used to lift cities up to support sewer systems and now adding relatively simple infrastructure seems out of reach. Neoliberalism has completely ruined our ability to invest in public infrastructure
I’m not really saying it can be done overnight. But imagine if all the money (heck even half the money) that went into trying to build electric cars went into building some good transit systems supported by strong transit oriented design. It would have done way more to tackle climate change than making cars EVs. It’s a long term process but one that far more likely to make a difference than EVs.
Great cities are handled, now how do we make rural areas work without cars?
I never said rural areas should go without cars.
What about banning all trade shipping?
Trade shipping is incredibly efficient when it comes to moving large quantities of goods. Transportation, as a whole, consumes about a quarter of the world's energy output. Meanwhile industry verges on near 60%. A large portion of that is refining and manufacturing coupled with new construction.
While I understand that people's immediate reaction is that we need more EVs or, on the extreme end, somehow restrict cars. People also need to understand that's not the sector that is going to have the most corrective impact on the coming climate disasters.
They are also trying out old-school sail ships
Most people aren't buying $40k+ cars? Weird.
Sadly, they are. The median new car price in the US last year was $46k.
Sad? Seems like people had more money then they needed and were buying cars 2x as expensive as they needed.
You would think, but the sad part it’s people over-extending themselves more for something they really can’t afford
I want an EV.
I have the money for an EV.
I put a down payment on an EV back in April 2022.
It still hasn’t been ordered, because the manufacturer won’t permit the dealership to order any, and is barely shipping any to Canada, even though they advertise it as their flagship EV.
Meanwhile, lots in the US are full of unsold units.
Which manufacturer?
Hyundai
Maybe it is price. Maybe we all finally realized Musk is a right wing piece of shit, even worse than all the other corporate thieves.
... But Tesla is far from the only manufacturer, that produces totally overpriced and shitty EVs
Kinda reminds me of the same argument to why businesses can't find employees, they aren't able to exploit them enough.
Sounds like they are asking for free government money
EVs are expensive because of the battery.
A cheap car is not a novelty, specially for asian manufacturers. There is no cheap EV because there is no cheap big ion-li battery.
Toyota strategy of focus on hybrid and hydrogen seemed weird to me. But over the years has been started to make sense.
The world needs a better battery. Until that, EVs will be heavy and expensive.
Very much this. Lithium batteries are the best battery we’ve got (at manufacturing scale) so far in terms of energy storage density, but the best we’ve got isn’t very good.
Gasoline has an energy storage density of around 13 MJ/kg. That’s a ton of energy, so much so that a vehicle can waste most of it generating so much heat that we have to bolt on a cooling system (with the associated weight) and still have enough to go highway speeds for hundreds of miles on a quantity of fuel weighing less than one of the passengers.
Toyota loves hydrogen because it’s got a storage density slightly higher than gasoline. Hydrogen has some serious volume and storage issues, but the density is there.
Contrast that with lithium ion batteries at ~0.7 MJ/kg (for the really good ones, which usually aren’t used in cars). Less waste heat, to be sure, but the bulk of the vehicles weight, the main factor in speed and travel distance, is the insane amount of material necessary to store the “fuel”.
Electric motors are far more efficient than ICE, but we need orders-of-magnitude improvements in battery storage density before EV can really take advantage of the greater efficiency. Until then manufacturers don’t have a choice, EV will be heavy and thus expensive.
Hydrogen cars are basically EVs without the giant battery. So it neatly avoids the huge cost and weight problem. Which is why Toyota thinks they are the future.
Charging infrastructure is still pretty shit compared to refueling a gas car as well.
Yes and no.
The EV refueling infrastructure while on the road is kinda shit.
The home refueling infrastructure for gasoline cars is really, really shit.
And so if you aren't a home owner then the ev refuling is shit.
Maybe right now but that isn't a difficult problem to solve considering all homes have electricity readily available.
And how'd you go about it if you're in an apartment? Lower a few extenders from your window?
Believe it or not, the electricity also runs outside under the ground.
It's an expensive problem to solve. Charging stations aren't cheap nor is getting an electrician to come out and run wiring and panels for a hundred cars even if it's just 120 then it eill take 8-12 hours for each car to charge.
I've lived in some places that have giant parking lots for the cars which means they have to dig it up to run wiring and create stations at each spot. That can reduce the amount of cars that can be parked which in some places would benillegal
Slow charging speeds at home/work are fine, nobody is burning 100% of their range daily on their commute. The people with 200 mile daily commutes are not buying EVs
I've spent time in the Midwest and most residential parking lots already have outlets all over the place for block hearers in the winter. If a tiny apartment complex in North Dakota can do it, so can everyone else.
No one said they couldn't do it. It's just that it isn't done..so what happens when you buy an ev and move some where woth no charging ? I am in north jersey and I haven't see a complex here condo or apartment that has outlets anywhere in the parking lot
Even still , unless they are 240v welcome to 2-3 miles per hour charging rate on a ev. Hope you don't plan on traveling far.
It's not that it isn't done, it's that EVs have only been on the scene for a few years and infrastructure hasn't caught up yet. The state of things today doesn't represent how things have always been in the past or will be in the future. When gasoline cars first came out, we didn't have gas stations on every corner either, but the folks living in 1910 managed to figure things out. I think we can do the same.
Except no one set an insane time limit of when everyone had to switch over from horses to gasoline cars. So infrastructure was bale to grow out along the slow pace of car purchases. But since the 1980s the amount of cars per family have sky rocketed and switching from gasoline to electric isn't something that will happen in a decade
Renters can have home charging, too. Just need an outlet.
For 2-3 miles of range an hour ? https://www.tesla.com/support/charging
Also not all renters have access to sockets. The last complex I rented at years ago had zero outlets in thier parking lot.
A 240v 40A dryer outlet delivers 30mph which is more than plenty for home charging
Which you'd have to lay to run a line. Having to run dozens or hundreds of them fir an apartment complex requires a lot if money
And if you’re in a European city without off-road parking, at-home refuelling for EVs is shit too.
I love these crazy comparisons you people make. Nobody gives a fuck if they have to stop 2 minutes to refuel. 5 minutes if there is a line. Nobody wants to take an hour long wait for a charge port.
It's like none of you have ever traveled for the holidays.
Yeah, but that totally makes sense if no one is buying. It's just, that no one is buying, because automakers aren't really interested in EVs, since gas powered have bigger margins, meaning initial manufacturing cost is lower, so they can jack the prices. When they do it with EVs it's getting very ridiculous very fast.
Maybe in your country, here the majority of sold cars are electric. And the charging network is great. (Switzerland)
Yeah, I'm from Germany. So we are big petrol heads over here ...
Also, my point was about pricing, is that different in Switzerland? I would doubt that.
Well, the majority of Swiss people drives overpriced SUVs anyway.. so I guess the margins are pretty good And people here see the saving potential if you use less than 0.35 CHF/kWh 🔋 power compared the often more than 2.0 CHF/L ⛽️ power 1L of ⛽️ has about 10kWh but energy going to the street is way less compared to EV
Source: https://www.econologie.de/Energie-enthalten-in-Liter-Kraftstoff-Diesel-oder-Benzin/
Right. Thanks for sharing.
I hate the SUV trend as a whole, but especially in EVs it's just so non-sensical. Trying to build more resourceconsious vehicles, but at the same time building them twice as big and heavy as they need to be, while trying to achieve range ...
At the root of this issue is dealership exclusivity. Otherwise new companies would make them cheaper sell them privately and dominate that market. Tesla did some of this but still wanted to be premium. We need generic Tesla to come out, and the other EV companies are obsessed with premium.
While it's a factor it probably isn't the root of the problem. The problem is car manufacturers are building the cars faster than the market is growing and at high price points than consumers want in a time of economic difficulty and inflation.
We're still seeing build out of electric infrastructure, expensive cars vs petrol cars, and a relatively small second hand market (which also drives infrastructure expansion). It also doesn't help that countries are pushing back promises to ban non-EV car sales. Dealership monopolies certainly exacerbate all those problems.
This story headline is nonsense though. EVs are working and are growing. The story is actually that car companies have made expensive attempts at grabbing market share which haven't worked and are now counting the costs. They're delaying the rate of growth in production, not reducing production - significant difference.
The problem is charging. Wven if you being out entry level ev chars people want. Where will people who don't own a home charge them ?
Imagine working a 9 hour shift plus your commute and then having to drive out of your way for a public charging place. Then wait 45mins + for an 80% charge. Then imagine the few charging spots at the location being full so you have to wait even longer to charge it
I think the pricing is actually fine for the cars because people who are going to actually buy an ev would be shopping for an ice car in the same proce range. Those who would buy a lower price range would face way more hurdles while owning an ev
I have a buddy who does this and it’s not as bad as you make it seem. Once a week or so, he goes to a supercharger for an hour or so to top off. Obviously it all depends on your daily usage and the range of the vehicle but it’s just not this huge personal tragedy people describe it as. It’s a minor hassle to sit around for an hour once a week
It’s an hour I would have had to spend doing anything else though, and with limited time already I’d rather not spend an hour sat doing nothing waiting for my car to charge.
I'm sure that's a factor, but I'm pretty skeptical that it's the root
The elites don't want you to know this, but you can be personally responsible for getting your city off of car addiction.
Similar to a headline that says "Food products not working", without mentioning escalating costs for the average person. Those that could afford and early adopters are limited.
China ate their lunch, now they cry
This is the best summary I could come up with:
With signs of growing inventory and slowing sales, auto industry executives admitted this week that their ambitious electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy, at least in the near term.
Several C-Suite leaders at some of the biggest carmakers voiced fresh unease about the electric car market's growth as concerns over the viability of these vehicles put their multi-billion-dollar electrification strategies at risk.
Even Tesla's Elon Musk warned on a recent earnings call that economic concerns would lead to waning vehicle demand, even for the long-time EV market leader.
These cars are taking dealers longer to sell compared with their gas counterparts as the next wave of buyers focus on cost, infrastructure challenges, and lifestyle barriers to adopting.
In July, the company extended its self-imposed deadline to hit annual electric vehicle production of 600,000 by a year, and abandoned a 2026 target to build 2 million EVs.
"People are finally seeing reality," Toyota Motor Chairman Akio Toyoda said at the Japan Mobility Show, the Wall Street Journal reported.
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