How do these eSIMs work from a user's perspective? I've only ever had phones with physical sim slots
Effectively, imagine there's a SIM card soldered to the motherboard of the phone, you can then download an eSIM to it and the phone behaves as if it's a physical SIM.
In reality it's generally built into the modem and I believe they can typically hold multiple eSIMs. What I'm not clear on is if inactive eSIMs actually live in the hardware eSIM or if they get swapped in by the OS
Depends on the phone. The newest ones let you use multiple ones simultaneously, one for calls/texts and one for data, for example. Slightly older ones only let you use one at a time, but they let you activate and deactivate multiple downloaded eSIMs.
on T-Mobile USA: I preordered my iPhone 15; the QR eSIM and automated SIM transfer system was completely down and I had to spend 30 minutes to an hour on the phone with customer service to swap over my physical SIM to an eSIM I could type (IIRC) into my new phone.
How frustrating
Yeah same, I want to know how you move phones if one breaks, or any number of similar situations where you can't run an app or access another device
That's my big concern as well.
With Google Fi you just sign into the fi app and transfer the phone. You need wifi but that's it.
Yeah, I've been using Fi for more than 5 years and haven't needed to worry about sim cards in a really long time.
The process with esims is so easy.
Its a shitty replacement. If I couldnswap phones like a sim card i wouldn't care. But they charge for a phone swap no thanks.
You call support and have them issue a new one.
yea, that's my biggest annoyance with it, if you can't pass security on the phone (talking to you prepaid carriers who have absolutely shit CS and protocols) you can no longer just hot swap the sim to get your verification code. You are just locked out of your account now. It's nice that it's more secure but, also such a pain in the ass for people who don't call their carrier a lot so they don't know their security.
Don't you need a SIM for calling?
I'm not sure if there's some special calling feature to reach a previously associated provider, but when I've been in that situation I just borrowed my roommate's phone.
As in ring the network (presumably on a third, working phone) and wait for them to post you something? Doesn't sound like a great user experience!
No, they issue it virtually. Then you download it via their app or via regular cell network provisioning.
download it via their app
On the phone that isn't connecting to the internet, because it doen't have a SIM yet? Or do eSIM phones use free internet before they have an eSIM issued?
In the store if you're getting the phone from a store, or somewhere with wifi (home, a friend's, a cafe) if you've gotten it some other way.
If you don't have any of those, you probably live way out in the jungle, and I'd be surprised if you had service even if you got the eSIM. But in the edge case that you somehow got home delivery postal service in the jungle, you'd probably be able to survive just fine without it until your next trip into town.
In the extreme edge case that you are in the jungle, get service, and your need is critical, I would have an activated backup phone tested periodically and ready to go.
Exactly the same as a normal one. It just works and you don't really need to do anything with it. Everything seems the same just no little card in the side of your device.
Until this article I thought you could swap eSIMs between phones, exactly like normal ones
Tbh I think you effectively could, but it would technically be your provider issuing a new one.
For me I just log into my provider's online account screen and I'm able to scan a new QR code
Eh that's not really the same. And reading this thread it seems many providers (including mine) don't support online QR codes.
That's unfortunate, at least in the UK all the (eSIM supporting) providers seem to offer the same capability.
As I've said elsewhere a physical SIM is slightly better in the situation where you smash your phone and buy a new one as you don't need to connect your new phone to the phone shop's WiFi for 5 mins (scanning the QR code is the quick way, you can just type an alphanumeric code in too, some carriers let you download it via an app). On the flip side though, if your phone is stolen, I still just need the WiFi for 5 mins. With a physical SIM, it would be sent to my home address and arrive a couple of days later.
Yah and mine charges for a phone transfer. No thanks I'll keep physical sim as long as in can.
Well frankly, that's pretty shitty of your carrier, IMO. I didn't realise anyone was actually out there charging for what's basically essential functionality.
There's basically nothing technically different about transfering a physical SIM or an eSIM from the network's perspective. The same registration takes place, they have to send all the same carrier service configuration messages.
I don't blame you at all for holding onto a physical SIM in that scenario, but I'd be looking to move to a less customer-hostile carrier once my contract was up.
Well frankly, that's pretty shitty of your ______, IMO. I didn't realise anyone was actually out there charging for what's basically essential functionality.
I just wanted to say how valuable this lesson is for everyone who hasnt learned it yet to learn
This is an equally important lesson to learn for both capitalism and enshitification.
Find or create a need and exploit it
I thought you could too but I use Google Fi and I just log into my Google account on a new device and it lets me deactivate the old phone and download the sim to the new phone.
What if I need to change the SIM?
You get a QR code for the new sim, go into the eSIM manager on the phone, and scan it
I don't want a "new sim", I want my old one, which doesn't exist anymore since it was virtual and only existed in my now broken previous phone. How does it work in that situation?
Call your carrier or go into a store and they move it over. If your phone is broken you’ll kinda be SOL since there’s no way to authenticate the move.
Exactly. What a shitty anti-feature. Your answer proves that the people saying that "eSIMs are functionally the same as normal SIM" are full of absolute shit.
Genuinely asking, what do you gain by transferring the physical Sim?
Keeping my number. Are you saying that I can immediately, online, get my existing number connected to a different handset? If I can't, then that's why I want to transfer the physical SIM.
Now I can't answer for other regions, but with my carrier here in Norway I can sign in to their website and authenticate with the government ID system (bankid) and generate a new esim and get the QR code.
Takes about a minute total.
I'm personally more for physical sim cards as swapping it into a new phone or swapping in a traveler datasim etc is just something I prefer to have physically.
That being said, I use esim for my phone number, and then swap in travel sims for data with my physical sim slot, works really well when you travel a lot.
You won't be able to use the bankid when your previous phone is broken, though. That's my point.
I've got a physical code generator as backup like any person worried about their phone breaking should have.
Are you saying that I can immediately, online, get my existing number connected to a different handset?
Yes.
Are you saying that I can immediately, online, get my existing number connected to a different handset?
Yes, that's exactly how it works
What prevents someone else from doing that at any point, taking over my number? Is the only authentication a simple login to the mobile provider's website?
If SIM swapping is your concern, know that it is just as simple to do with physical SIMs. It's not like your phone number is hardcoded to that one card alone. The phone company can easily move your number around. Literally anything you'd want to do with a physical SIM you can do with an eSIM. Some very niche situations may be easier with a physical one but over all it's a much nicer experience with eSims
Literally anything you’d want to do with a physical SIM you can do with an eSIM.
No. There is no reason for you to blatantly LIE. It is NOT possible for the consumer to switch to using a borrowed or backup handset, when there is no physical token. How on earth do you think that contradicting actual reality is an argument?
You trust your carrier to not give your number away today, right? Many providers allow a number migration code to be generated from their website, protected by just their authentication.
The fact that carriers have poor security today isn't an argument for discontinuing the part of the system that still allows the consumer to be in control. It's an argument against it.
Not the person you asked but I have a couple of sims by different providers that I swap between phones/sim routers when I need to make calls or use data from that carrier. Popping the sim into an old device and configuring whatever I need is super convenient.
The newest few generations of phones support multiple SIMs.
But I don't necessarily want to use my main phone as a hotspot.
That doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.
@AdmiralShat@FragmentedChicken phones that support esims have actual sim chips inside, and esims basically flash the carrier data onto that chip.
They're functionally the same as normal SIM, instead it is stored in a secure location of the storage (which can survive factory reset). In a way, it makes it a bit more secure as a thief can't just yank out the SIM card to avoid being tracked (although it doesn't defeat a faraday bag) or take it out to use it in another phone.
The major function of a normal SIM is the ability to take it out of one device and put it into another one, effectively disconnecting my identity towards the network provider, from the handset. With eSIM, that doesn't exist, and if my phone breaks, it's unclear what happens.
To me, that's not secure, that's unsafe and insecure.
that doesn't exist
Well fwiw, the post we're commenting on is about that now existing.
the ability to take it out of one device and put it into another one, effectively disconnecting my identity towards the network provider, from the handset
Unless you think that taking a SIM out of a phone means that the phone is no longer connected to you, which isn't the case at all. A phone's IMEI is sent along with the SIM data as part of the initial handshake to make a mobile connection, your carrier knows the make, model and serial number of every phone you've ever put your SIM card in. The police in most countries make them keep track of which cell towers that combo of IMEI and SIM connect to and at what times. There's no privacy in using a mobile network you pay a bill for.
that's not secure
Obviously this isn't the be all and end all of security, but an eSIM slightly improves device security because a thief would be unable to remove it and disable any theft tracking measures which require network access. (Yes I know about EM shielded bags, but most thieves are opportunists)
The only real advantage of a physical SIM is that if you smash your phone up, you can walk into a shop and put it into a new phone without needing an internet connection first. If I smash my phone up, I need a WiFi network to hook my new phone up to the network. On the flip side, if I get robbed abroad, the process is the same. With a physical SIM it's gonna get sent to my home address.
So can I move my sim to an iPhone? Or a non google android?
It seems to support transfer between Google and Samsung devices on the latest OS according to the article.
Given that, if it doesn't work with non-google/non-samsung devices today, I'd expect it to in the future as that's obviously the goal for this.
Funnily enough about iPhones, I don't think they even have a physical SIM slot anymore in some markets. So unless they have a transfer feature I'm unaware of, you're gonna spend a minute logging into your network's account screen and scan a new QR code, like you can with any eSIM phone today.
From a corporate device perspective it's an interesting evolution though, since we can remotely provision an eSIM through our mobile device management platform. No SIM to handle from the user point of view, and they can't take it out.
Generally you go to some site your carrier has, enter the IMEI or some number from your phone's settings, then scan a QR code. It's not bad... depending on your carrier.
And pay a fee.
The same way Verizon phones used to work: less well.
Exactly back to phones working on only one carrier. I know not yet but give it awhile.
When I got my Pixel 8 Pro it asked me if I want to convert the physical SIM from my Xiaomi 9 SE (and disable the old SIM). I didn't have to take off the case and move the SIM, so I liked it.
Yep, same here. Wouldn't want to use eSIMs at all if they were any more hassle than this. But their process to me is good enough to outweigh the physical SIM swapping process.
How do these eSIMs work from a user's perspective? I've only ever had phones with physical sim slots
Effectively, imagine there's a SIM card soldered to the motherboard of the phone, you can then download an eSIM to it and the phone behaves as if it's a physical SIM.
In reality it's generally built into the modem and I believe they can typically hold multiple eSIMs. What I'm not clear on is if inactive eSIMs actually live in the hardware eSIM or if they get swapped in by the OS
Depends on the phone. The newest ones let you use multiple ones simultaneously, one for calls/texts and one for data, for example. Slightly older ones only let you use one at a time, but they let you activate and deactivate multiple downloaded eSIMs.
on T-Mobile USA: I preordered my iPhone 15; the QR eSIM and automated SIM transfer system was completely down and I had to spend 30 minutes to an hour on the phone with customer service to swap over my physical SIM to an eSIM I could type (IIRC) into my new phone.
How frustrating
Yeah same, I want to know how you move phones if one breaks, or any number of similar situations where you can't run an app or access another device
That's my big concern as well.
With Google Fi you just sign into the fi app and transfer the phone. You need wifi but that's it.
Yeah, I've been using Fi for more than 5 years and haven't needed to worry about sim cards in a really long time.
The process with esims is so easy.
Its a shitty replacement. If I couldnswap phones like a sim card i wouldn't care. But they charge for a phone swap no thanks.
You call support and have them issue a new one.
yea, that's my biggest annoyance with it, if you can't pass security on the phone (talking to you prepaid carriers who have absolutely shit CS and protocols) you can no longer just hot swap the sim to get your verification code. You are just locked out of your account now. It's nice that it's more secure but, also such a pain in the ass for people who don't call their carrier a lot so they don't know their security.
Don't you need a SIM for calling?
I'm not sure if there's some special calling feature to reach a previously associated provider, but when I've been in that situation I just borrowed my roommate's phone.
As in ring the network (presumably on a third, working phone) and wait for them to post you something? Doesn't sound like a great user experience!
No, they issue it virtually. Then you download it via their app or via regular cell network provisioning.
On the phone that isn't connecting to the internet, because it doen't have a SIM yet? Or do eSIM phones use free internet before they have an eSIM issued?
In the store if you're getting the phone from a store, or somewhere with wifi (home, a friend's, a cafe) if you've gotten it some other way.
If you don't have any of those, you probably live way out in the jungle, and I'd be surprised if you had service even if you got the eSIM. But in the edge case that you somehow got home delivery postal service in the jungle, you'd probably be able to survive just fine without it until your next trip into town.
In the extreme edge case that you are in the jungle, get service, and your need is critical, I would have an activated backup phone tested periodically and ready to go.
Exactly the same as a normal one. It just works and you don't really need to do anything with it. Everything seems the same just no little card in the side of your device.
Until this article I thought you could swap eSIMs between phones, exactly like normal ones
Tbh I think you effectively could, but it would technically be your provider issuing a new one.
For me I just log into my provider's online account screen and I'm able to scan a new QR code
Eh that's not really the same. And reading this thread it seems many providers (including mine) don't support online QR codes.
That's unfortunate, at least in the UK all the (eSIM supporting) providers seem to offer the same capability.
As I've said elsewhere a physical SIM is slightly better in the situation where you smash your phone and buy a new one as you don't need to connect your new phone to the phone shop's WiFi for 5 mins (scanning the QR code is the quick way, you can just type an alphanumeric code in too, some carriers let you download it via an app). On the flip side though, if your phone is stolen, I still just need the WiFi for 5 mins. With a physical SIM, it would be sent to my home address and arrive a couple of days later.
Yah and mine charges for a phone transfer. No thanks I'll keep physical sim as long as in can.
Well frankly, that's pretty shitty of your carrier, IMO. I didn't realise anyone was actually out there charging for what's basically essential functionality.
There's basically nothing technically different about transfering a physical SIM or an eSIM from the network's perspective. The same registration takes place, they have to send all the same carrier service configuration messages.
I don't blame you at all for holding onto a physical SIM in that scenario, but I'd be looking to move to a less customer-hostile carrier once my contract was up.
I just wanted to say how valuable this lesson is for everyone who hasnt learned it yet to learn
This is an equally important lesson to learn for both capitalism and enshitification.
Find or create a need and exploit it
I thought you could too but I use Google Fi and I just log into my Google account on a new device and it lets me deactivate the old phone and download the sim to the new phone.
What if I need to change the SIM?
You get a QR code for the new sim, go into the eSIM manager on the phone, and scan it
I don't want a "new sim", I want my old one, which doesn't exist anymore since it was virtual and only existed in my now broken previous phone. How does it work in that situation?
Call your carrier or go into a store and they move it over. If your phone is broken you’ll kinda be SOL since there’s no way to authenticate the move.
Exactly. What a shitty anti-feature. Your answer proves that the people saying that "eSIMs are functionally the same as normal SIM" are full of absolute shit.
Genuinely asking, what do you gain by transferring the physical Sim?
Keeping my number. Are you saying that I can immediately, online, get my existing number connected to a different handset? If I can't, then that's why I want to transfer the physical SIM.
Now I can't answer for other regions, but with my carrier here in Norway I can sign in to their website and authenticate with the government ID system (bankid) and generate a new esim and get the QR code. Takes about a minute total.
I'm personally more for physical sim cards as swapping it into a new phone or swapping in a traveler datasim etc is just something I prefer to have physically.
That being said, I use esim for my phone number, and then swap in travel sims for data with my physical sim slot, works really well when you travel a lot.
You won't be able to use the bankid when your previous phone is broken, though. That's my point.
I've got a physical code generator as backup like any person worried about their phone breaking should have.
Yes.
Yes, that's exactly how it works
What prevents someone else from doing that at any point, taking over my number? Is the only authentication a simple login to the mobile provider's website?
If SIM swapping is your concern, know that it is just as simple to do with physical SIMs. It's not like your phone number is hardcoded to that one card alone. The phone company can easily move your number around. Literally anything you'd want to do with a physical SIM you can do with an eSIM. Some very niche situations may be easier with a physical one but over all it's a much nicer experience with eSims
No. There is no reason for you to blatantly LIE. It is NOT possible for the consumer to switch to using a borrowed or backup handset, when there is no physical token. How on earth do you think that contradicting actual reality is an argument?
You trust your carrier to not give your number away today, right? Many providers allow a number migration code to be generated from their website, protected by just their authentication.
The fact that carriers have poor security today isn't an argument for discontinuing the part of the system that still allows the consumer to be in control. It's an argument against it.
Yes.
Not the person you asked but I have a couple of sims by different providers that I swap between phones/sim routers when I need to make calls or use data from that carrier. Popping the sim into an old device and configuring whatever I need is super convenient.
The newest few generations of phones support multiple SIMs.
But I don't necessarily want to use my main phone as a hotspot.
That doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.
Without a SIM?
@AdmiralShat @FragmentedChicken phones that support esims have actual sim chips inside, and esims basically flash the carrier data onto that chip.
They're functionally the same as normal SIM, instead it is stored in a secure location of the storage (which can survive factory reset). In a way, it makes it a bit more secure as a thief can't just yank out the SIM card to avoid being tracked (although it doesn't defeat a faraday bag) or take it out to use it in another phone.
The major function of a normal SIM is the ability to take it out of one device and put it into another one, effectively disconnecting my identity towards the network provider, from the handset. With eSIM, that doesn't exist, and if my phone breaks, it's unclear what happens.
To me, that's not secure, that's unsafe and insecure.
Well fwiw, the post we're commenting on is about that now existing.
Unless you think that taking a SIM out of a phone means that the phone is no longer connected to you, which isn't the case at all. A phone's IMEI is sent along with the SIM data as part of the initial handshake to make a mobile connection, your carrier knows the make, model and serial number of every phone you've ever put your SIM card in. The police in most countries make them keep track of which cell towers that combo of IMEI and SIM connect to and at what times. There's no privacy in using a mobile network you pay a bill for.
Obviously this isn't the be all and end all of security, but an eSIM slightly improves device security because a thief would be unable to remove it and disable any theft tracking measures which require network access. (Yes I know about EM shielded bags, but most thieves are opportunists)
The only real advantage of a physical SIM is that if you smash your phone up, you can walk into a shop and put it into a new phone without needing an internet connection first. If I smash my phone up, I need a WiFi network to hook my new phone up to the network. On the flip side, if I get robbed abroad, the process is the same. With a physical SIM it's gonna get sent to my home address.
So can I move my sim to an iPhone? Or a non google android?
It seems to support transfer between Google and Samsung devices on the latest OS according to the article.
Given that, if it doesn't work with non-google/non-samsung devices today, I'd expect it to in the future as that's obviously the goal for this.
Funnily enough about iPhones, I don't think they even have a physical SIM slot anymore in some markets. So unless they have a transfer feature I'm unaware of, you're gonna spend a minute logging into your network's account screen and scan a new QR code, like you can with any eSIM phone today.
From a corporate device perspective it's an interesting evolution though, since we can remotely provision an eSIM through our mobile device management platform. No SIM to handle from the user point of view, and they can't take it out.
Generally you go to some site your carrier has, enter the IMEI or some number from your phone's settings, then scan a QR code. It's not bad... depending on your carrier.
And pay a fee.
The same way Verizon phones used to work: less well.
Exactly back to phones working on only one carrier. I know not yet but give it awhile.
When I got my Pixel 8 Pro it asked me if I want to convert the physical SIM from my Xiaomi 9 SE (and disable the old SIM). I didn't have to take off the case and move the SIM, so I liked it.
With Google Fi
Yep, same here. Wouldn't want to use eSIMs at all if they were any more hassle than this. But their process to me is good enough to outweigh the physical SIM swapping process.