Nope. And either way these posts are really good at making protest voters
Nah, anyone who protest votes is doing it because they're an immature asshole. We can convert some people on the fringe to sense but a lot of people can't handle the fact that it's imperative that they put their name next to the less bad of two people.
Just to remind you, Trump will institute a national abortion ban - voting for Biden will directly save hundreds of women's lives... it's the absolute easiest action to avert unnecessary deaths you'll ever have in your lifetime.
If you can't do this, you can't do fucking anything.
All these posts blaming protest voters and those who don’t vote are all generated because of the bad numbers from the primaries right? And the over all loss in confidence in Biden due to his willful protection of isreal right?
Just got to remind people that they don’t really have a choice when the real voting happens. I think if you wanted to reach these voters these posts would be more detrimental then helpful.
What would help is if Biden stopped doing the hated things.
Or is this just a circle jerk reddit thing?
I think I was pretty fucking clear. I'm posting because it will save lives. Imagine how difficult it is to pull someone from a burning car, now imagine how difficult it would be to fill in the bubble next to Biden on a ballot - both actions will save lives.
So why is it so fucking difficult to fill in that bubble?
I don't know the inverse to that is also true. Joe Biden could throw progressive some more bones if it meant saving women's lives.
It's bizarre to me that the onus is on us and not the candidate running for office to convince us.
No you are not. This isn’t some revelation. That people just didn’t know that fracturing the Democratic parties vote hurts their chances against the republicans. You are making this post for selfish reasons.
Like i said, demonizing people who find it hard to vote for someone protecting a genocide is for your own self gratification. Its not to change minds, its not to help Biden beat trump. Its solely to start a circle jerk to validate your decision to vote blue no matter who, and to quiet that little voice about how bad of a candidate he is
You are doing no one any favors
I love how all these people who are suddenly vocal about the terrible situation in Gaza fall short of realizing that getting Trump in office would be catastrophically worse. With that logic, the only practical option is to vote for Biden in the general. A 3rd party vote is just throwing your vote away.
The only conclusion I see here is these people are either disinformation agents, naive fools, or both.
The idea isn't to convert you. The idea is to help others see your arguments for what they are and not fall down the same nihilistic trap.
Also note that they ignore the Ukranian genocide out of habit. Bc it doesnt please daddy vlad to have it acknowledged.
All those lives in Gaza saved.
Donald said "Israel should finish the job." IDK how much more directly one can reference "Final Solution." Sure, he will save the Palestinians.
Okay. What does that have to do with Gaza already being obliterated? The killing already happened.
If it's already a lost cause why are you bringing it up? Would "Final Solution" Donald have saved those lives? Or would he have done at least as poorly while also placing Christofascist judges onto federal benches?
You'll never get an answer, they're arguing in bad faith.
Of course. I'm talking to other readers, really. No matter what I write, this person will be bothsidesing until Nov. 4th when they can don their red hat again.
There's lots of people still living in Gaza. There might not be if Trump wins.
You really don't see the difference between killing one person and killing ten people? Yeah, both are murder but one is worse.
There absolutely wont be if Biden wins. Biden is president. For the entirety of the Gaza slaughter he has been. He has been personally supplying the weapons to Israel to do it. He is responsible for these deaths. Somehow, somehow you think palestinians will be saved by electing this man?
Somehow, somehow you think palestinians will be saved by electing this man?
Absolutely. I don't know what is so difficult for you to understand about this. Democrats want to limit the killing. Republicans want to increase the killing. There's never been an easier choice in the history of choices.
And you somehow think voting for Trump, or giving him an advantage, will help in Gaza?
He will put zero pressure on Netanyahu. He'll likely openly support the effort and say something like "the Palestinians are just like the illegals crossing our border."
Voting isn't picking someone you like, voting is choosing the person with the best chance of winning and creating policies aligned with your values and ideals. If you vote for somebody with zero chance of winning, you're giving an advantage to the candidate who undermines your values being implemented in the long term.
If we had ranked choice voting, or if the alternative candidate wasn't openly threatening democracy, the rationale would be very different.
The smart people tried to explain to the voters that Brexit would be an enormous failure, but the voters let their emotions get in the way of being rational, and now they're suffering and wished they had voted differently.
We have the potential for something much worse with Trump. Much worse. If you can't see through your emotions to understand that if Trump is elected your vote may never matter again, I'm not sure you have the rationale capacity to be worth the time I spent typing this response.
Help? You cant save a corpse. The hostage is dead, youve got no leverage anymore.
Oh man, I missed the memo that every Palestinian died, and people with uteruses, and anyone who doesn't identify as cishet, and everyone impacted by climate change, and everyone in Ukraine.
Man, I've been wasting a lot of time and energy worrying about all those dead people.
What are you going to actively do to change the future? What effort are you going to make to respect those unnecessary deaths?
Not reelect the same person responsible for this in the first place? The guy that was making executive orders to bypass congress to deliver weapons to Israel?
It fucking sucks and I strongly support the uncommitted movement and putting all the pressure we can on him about Gaza (see my post history if you want). Trump is going to be as bad or worse on Gaza, it fucking sucks but there isn't a way you can vote to fix Gaza.
Sure there is, elect someone other than Biden or Trump. Trumps gonna win because picking a viable candidate to run against trump keeps getting shot down
Cool, figure something out to make that viable. Not voting, or voting 3rd party, isn't going to change anything.
In the meantime, back in the real world of today, be a grownup.
you just vote for someone else. But you wont, and Trump will win because of it.
Did you mean the rhetorical you, or was my comment not clear...?
Yeah no, im well aware of that self fulfilling prophecy. Youre not aware of the self fulfilling part. No one else can be viable because you wont let anyone be.
I wish we had - the time for that choice was the primaries. At this point the choice is Biden or Trump.
we didnt really have primaries. the only choice we get is in november.
We did - it's just that nobody in the establishment wants to run against an incumbent president. You almost certainly had the opportunity to vote for Marianne Williamson though.
That's what they said the last election and voter turnout was nuts.
The blaming of the protest voters shamed them into voting for Biden? Yea i doubt that.
Though right now the situation is different. Biden has done some things that make voters balk. Maybe he should stop doing that. It might help more then making circle jerk posts on Lemmy
This has nothing to do with blame. It's mathematics. You can either add to the resistance against Trump or not.
You say that like this math factors into any part of why people are protest voting. They know this already and this gives nothing to the conversation. Instead, your best bet is to find out what they want and maybe go over a plan that gets them what they need. Sure as shit attempting to shame people with your basic math will only accomplish in widening the divide and pushing contrariness.
Ironically, in that episode, voting third party was best because both candidates were monsters.
Today one is a monster and the other is the not a monster but still mostly represents monsters, but some people too.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!
I took some time to look at who the 2020 Biden voter are who are considering not voting for him.
While there are a growing number of such groups, one of the biggest is Muslims. They get that Trump is a racist and hates Muslims. They're also currently watching Biden going out of his way to support Israel in their genocide. To them, Biden doesn't just represent monsters, he is a monster. They're logic is essentially, "We're fucked either way. Let's get rid of the monster in front of us and then we'll worry about the next monster."
It doesn't matter if you or I agree with that. They're not asking for permission to feel that way. If the Democratic leadership doesn't address those concerns with significantly more empathy than, "don't be stupid", the likely outcome is that Biden will miss out on many of those votes.
Unfortunately Biden has been racking up voter groups that feel betrayed by him. My preference would have been for Biden to find some other Democratic candidate, retire gracefully and strongly back the new candidate.
He even said during 2020 that he wanted to be a one term president, that he was only there to beat trump.
I guess you can argue he still needs to beat trump.
I'm all for someone trying to beat Trump.
It's looking less and less like Biden will be able to pull that off.
He even said during 2020 that he wanted to be a one term president
He literally never said that. This is pure propaganda.
"If Biden is elected, he's going to be 82 years old in four years and he won't be running for reelection," a prominent adviser to the campaign told Politico.
I guess the words didn’t come from his mouth in particular but when your a politician, your staff are your representatives, and his said it.
Can’t believe people would call our verifiable facts as propaganda so confidently with nothing to back it up…
Like I said,
He literally never said that
One fucking advisor to the campaign said it. Not even his official staff. An advisor.
"Verifiable facts", my ass. It's propaganda and you just repeated it without ever looking into it.
Well someone on his team said it, someone that Biden chose to be on his team.
When I go to the bank, what the representative says is basically the same as the bank telling me that info.
This is the security dude out front of the bank 4 years ago telling you they for sure won't get bought out. It's not a fucking binding contract from the CEO.
From what i recall, he was undecided. The media and others were projecting and suggesting that he should be a 1-term president. —Honestly, his vagueness about policy and his advocacy for nothing but the status-quo are primarily what led me to vote Green for the last presidential election.
It doesn’t matter if you or I agree with that.
I'd argue it matters a lot.
What's the argument that it does?
Do you think that this disagreement is likely to change anyone's mind?
Take a fairly famous example. Bassem Youssef has very publicly embraced the sentiment I'm describing. How does your agreement or disagreement have any impact at all?
I'd argue that it will only have an impact if you choose an action that's likely to induce change. He very clearly says that he considers the threats that "If you don't vote for Biden you're voting for Trump," messages to be a form of blackmail.
He finds it unconvincing so it fails to work on him. As near as I can tell, his attitude is fairly representative of a significant number of voters.
How does your agreement or disagreement have any impact at all?
This is a democracy. Potential voters are being influenced right now by the discussions we're having.
I should clarify then.
There is currently some percentage of people who plan to vote for Biden, some that plan to vote for Trump and some who are undecided.
Most polling shows that, if there was an election today, Biden would lose pretty badly.
If you simply agree or disagree, is that likely to change anyone's planned voting behavior?
If you continue to insult the people who do not currently plan to vote for Biden, do you think that will change their minds?
If you continue to insult the people who do not currently plan to vote for Biden, do you think that will change their minds?
Yes. People who plan to protest vote are stupid and should feel stupid. We should be peer pressuring the fuck out of them.
So you think that telling someone that they're stupid and should feel stupid is a good way to change their mind?
Has that ever worked for you?
Works all the time. You've never heard of peer pressure?
Peer pressure is certainly effective but it's not clear this is the same thing.
Do you think they consider you their peer?
Do you consider them your peers?
In cases where you've actually seen peer pressure work, was it actually because you were able to bully your peers into some behavior?
votes third party
That's just voting for Trump with extra steps.
No it isn't
I believe you if you’re logging in from the multiverse instance where West polls at over 40%, or the one where federal rank choice voting exists.
Don't have to believe me, you already made yourself sound like an idiot with that claim, my vote is for the person I voted for, nobody else.
Do you want ranked choice voting?
I have it in my area for city / county seats. And I voted for it.
You specified federal. Thats available to vote for too you know
Yes. I like ranked choice, I have voted in favor of it in the past, and I would be in support of it for more elections. Including federal elections.
awesome. Jill Stein has ranked choice as part of her platform.
It’s party of the Green Party’s platform.
Third parties obviously want it, because it’s the only way people can safely vote for them.
I can safely for for them, always have.
And you want it.
What’s your point? Are you telling me to vote for Jill Stein?
Vote for ranked choice
Nope. And either way these posts are really good at making protest voters
Nah, anyone who protest votes is doing it because they're an immature asshole. We can convert some people on the fringe to sense but a lot of people can't handle the fact that it's imperative that they put their name next to the less bad of two people.
Just to remind you, Trump will institute a national abortion ban - voting for Biden will directly save hundreds of women's lives... it's the absolute easiest action to avert unnecessary deaths you'll ever have in your lifetime.
If you can't do this, you can't do fucking anything.
All these posts blaming protest voters and those who don’t vote are all generated because of the bad numbers from the primaries right? And the over all loss in confidence in Biden due to his willful protection of isreal right?
Just got to remind people that they don’t really have a choice when the real voting happens. I think if you wanted to reach these voters these posts would be more detrimental then helpful.
What would help is if Biden stopped doing the hated things.
Or is this just a circle jerk reddit thing?
I think I was pretty fucking clear. I'm posting because it will save lives. Imagine how difficult it is to pull someone from a burning car, now imagine how difficult it would be to fill in the bubble next to Biden on a ballot - both actions will save lives.
So why is it so fucking difficult to fill in that bubble?
I don't know the inverse to that is also true. Joe Biden could throw progressive some more bones if it meant saving women's lives.
It's bizarre to me that the onus is on us and not the candidate running for office to convince us.
No you are not. This isn’t some revelation. That people just didn’t know that fracturing the Democratic parties vote hurts their chances against the republicans. You are making this post for selfish reasons.
Like i said, demonizing people who find it hard to vote for someone protecting a genocide is for your own self gratification. Its not to change minds, its not to help Biden beat trump. Its solely to start a circle jerk to validate your decision to vote blue no matter who, and to quiet that little voice about how bad of a candidate he is
You are doing no one any favors
I love how all these people who are suddenly vocal about the terrible situation in Gaza fall short of realizing that getting Trump in office would be catastrophically worse. With that logic, the only practical option is to vote for Biden in the general. A 3rd party vote is just throwing your vote away.
The only conclusion I see here is these people are either disinformation agents, naive fools, or both.
The idea isn't to convert you. The idea is to help others see your arguments for what they are and not fall down the same nihilistic trap.
Also note that they ignore the Ukranian genocide out of habit. Bc it doesnt please daddy vlad to have it acknowledged.
All those lives in Gaza saved.
Donald said "Israel should finish the job." IDK how much more directly one can reference "Final Solution." Sure, he will save the Palestinians.
Okay. What does that have to do with Gaza already being obliterated? The killing already happened.
If it's already a lost cause why are you bringing it up? Would "Final Solution" Donald have saved those lives? Or would he have done at least as poorly while also placing Christofascist judges onto federal benches?
You'll never get an answer, they're arguing in bad faith.
Of course. I'm talking to other readers, really. No matter what I write, this person will be bothsidesing until Nov. 4th when they can don their red hat again.
There's lots of people still living in Gaza. There might not be if Trump wins.
You really don't see the difference between killing one person and killing ten people? Yeah, both are murder but one is worse.
There absolutely wont be if Biden wins. Biden is president. For the entirety of the Gaza slaughter he has been. He has been personally supplying the weapons to Israel to do it. He is responsible for these deaths. Somehow, somehow you think palestinians will be saved by electing this man?
Absolutely. I don't know what is so difficult for you to understand about this. Democrats want to limit the killing. Republicans want to increase the killing. There's never been an easier choice in the history of choices.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-administration-emergency-weapons-sale-israel/
And you somehow think voting for Trump, or giving him an advantage, will help in Gaza?
He will put zero pressure on Netanyahu. He'll likely openly support the effort and say something like "the Palestinians are just like the illegals crossing our border."
Voting isn't picking someone you like, voting is choosing the person with the best chance of winning and creating policies aligned with your values and ideals. If you vote for somebody with zero chance of winning, you're giving an advantage to the candidate who undermines your values being implemented in the long term.
If we had ranked choice voting, or if the alternative candidate wasn't openly threatening democracy, the rationale would be very different.
The smart people tried to explain to the voters that Brexit would be an enormous failure, but the voters let their emotions get in the way of being rational, and now they're suffering and wished they had voted differently.
We have the potential for something much worse with Trump. Much worse. If you can't see through your emotions to understand that if Trump is elected your vote may never matter again, I'm not sure you have the rationale capacity to be worth the time I spent typing this response.
Help? You cant save a corpse. The hostage is dead, youve got no leverage anymore.
Oh man, I missed the memo that every Palestinian died, and people with uteruses, and anyone who doesn't identify as cishet, and everyone impacted by climate change, and everyone in Ukraine.
Man, I've been wasting a lot of time and energy worrying about all those dead people.
What are you going to actively do to change the future? What effort are you going to make to respect those unnecessary deaths?
Not reelect the same person responsible for this in the first place? The guy that was making executive orders to bypass congress to deliver weapons to Israel?
It fucking sucks and I strongly support the uncommitted movement and putting all the pressure we can on him about Gaza (see my post history if you want). Trump is going to be as bad or worse on Gaza, it fucking sucks but there isn't a way you can vote to fix Gaza.
Sure there is, elect someone other than Biden or Trump. Trumps gonna win because picking a viable candidate to run against trump keeps getting shot down
Cool, figure something out to make that viable. Not voting, or voting 3rd party, isn't going to change anything.
In the meantime, back in the real world of today, be a grownup.
you just vote for someone else. But you wont, and Trump will win because of it.
Did you mean the rhetorical you, or was my comment not clear...?
Yeah no, im well aware of that self fulfilling prophecy. Youre not aware of the self fulfilling part. No one else can be viable because you wont let anyone be.
I wish we had - the time for that choice was the primaries. At this point the choice is Biden or Trump.
we didnt really have primaries. the only choice we get is in november.
We did - it's just that nobody in the establishment wants to run against an incumbent president. You almost certainly had the opportunity to vote for Marianne Williamson though.
Nope, not on the primary ballot in my state
That's what they said the last election and voter turnout was nuts.
The blaming of the protest voters shamed them into voting for Biden? Yea i doubt that.
Though right now the situation is different. Biden has done some things that make voters balk. Maybe he should stop doing that. It might help more then making circle jerk posts on Lemmy
This has nothing to do with blame. It's mathematics. You can either add to the resistance against Trump or not.
You say that like this math factors into any part of why people are protest voting. They know this already and this gives nothing to the conversation. Instead, your best bet is to find out what they want and maybe go over a plan that gets them what they need. Sure as shit attempting to shame people with your basic math will only accomplish in widening the divide and pushing contrariness.
Ironically, in that episode, voting third party was best because both candidates were monsters.
Today one is a monster and the other is the not a monster but still mostly represents monsters, but some people too.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!
I took some time to look at who the 2020 Biden voter are who are considering not voting for him.
While there are a growing number of such groups, one of the biggest is Muslims. They get that Trump is a racist and hates Muslims. They're also currently watching Biden going out of his way to support Israel in their genocide. To them, Biden doesn't just represent monsters, he is a monster. They're logic is essentially, "We're fucked either way. Let's get rid of the monster in front of us and then we'll worry about the next monster."
It doesn't matter if you or I agree with that. They're not asking for permission to feel that way. If the Democratic leadership doesn't address those concerns with significantly more empathy than, "don't be stupid", the likely outcome is that Biden will miss out on many of those votes.
Unfortunately Biden has been racking up voter groups that feel betrayed by him. My preference would have been for Biden to find some other Democratic candidate, retire gracefully and strongly back the new candidate.
He even said during 2020 that he wanted to be a one term president, that he was only there to beat trump.
I guess you can argue he still needs to beat trump.
I'm all for someone trying to beat Trump.
It's looking less and less like Biden will be able to pull that off.
He literally never said that. This is pure propaganda.
https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2019-12-11/joe-biden-suggests-he-would-only-serve-one-term-if-elected-president
I guess the words didn’t come from his mouth in particular but when your a politician, your staff are your representatives, and his said it.
Can’t believe people would call our verifiable facts as propaganda so confidently with nothing to back it up…
Like I said,
One fucking advisor to the campaign said it. Not even his official staff. An advisor.
"Verifiable facts", my ass. It's propaganda and you just repeated it without ever looking into it.
Well someone on his team said it, someone that Biden chose to be on his team.
When I go to the bank, what the representative says is basically the same as the bank telling me that info.
This is the security dude out front of the bank 4 years ago telling you they for sure won't get bought out. It's not a fucking binding contract from the CEO.
From what i recall, he was undecided. The media and others were projecting and suggesting that he should be a 1-term president. —Honestly, his vagueness about policy and his advocacy for nothing but the status-quo are primarily what led me to vote Green for the last presidential election.
I'd argue it matters a lot.
What's the argument that it does?
Do you think that this disagreement is likely to change anyone's mind?
Take a fairly famous example. Bassem Youssef has very publicly embraced the sentiment I'm describing. How does your agreement or disagreement have any impact at all?
I'd argue that it will only have an impact if you choose an action that's likely to induce change. He very clearly says that he considers the threats that "If you don't vote for Biden you're voting for Trump," messages to be a form of blackmail.
He finds it unconvincing so it fails to work on him. As near as I can tell, his attitude is fairly representative of a significant number of voters.
This is a democracy. Potential voters are being influenced right now by the discussions we're having.
I should clarify then.
There is currently some percentage of people who plan to vote for Biden, some that plan to vote for Trump and some who are undecided.
Most polling shows that, if there was an election today, Biden would lose pretty badly.
If you simply agree or disagree, is that likely to change anyone's planned voting behavior? If you continue to insult the people who do not currently plan to vote for Biden, do you think that will change their minds?
Yes. People who plan to protest vote are stupid and should feel stupid. We should be peer pressuring the fuck out of them.
So you think that telling someone that they're stupid and should feel stupid is a good way to change their mind?
Has that ever worked for you?
Works all the time. You've never heard of peer pressure?
Peer pressure is certainly effective but it's not clear this is the same thing.
Do you think they consider you their peer?
Do you consider them your peers?
In cases where you've actually seen peer pressure work, was it actually because you were able to bully your peers into some behavior?
Yes...that's how peer pressure works
How does this make any sense in the context of the article?
It doesn't. They didn't read it.