Is this racism, or are there genuine concerns (they took er jerbs?)
Canadian here. Our immigration levels are rising faster than our ability to build infrastructure. Our hospitals and schools are overcrowded. Also a large percentage of our immigrants come from a couple countries it is not very diverse.
I still lean far left, but this has pushed a lot of people right.
Yea, but who builds infrastructure? Where I live, 50% of the workforce in construction is immigrants.
PS: I'm not saying what you say isn't true, it's just weird to see countries that were built by wave after wave of immigrants now say it's not working anymore. What changed from then to now?
That guy's in Canada. America's hat doesn't get that funding.
so they vote for right wing parties who oppose infrastructure and healthcare? makes sense
Instead of training locals they hire foreigners. Instead of raising wages due to market forces they hire foreigners. Instead of letting house prices go down they get foreigners.
All the things that the average working class person cares about. Cheap housing, jobs, job training. Is pushed further and further away from them and instead what benefits the landowners and business owners is given to them.
The best bit is the left who used to push for work for locals has been taken on the ride and basically say if anyone is against immigration in anyway is racist and will not discuss it under any circumstance. The only people that listen to the working class is the far right. It's literally the only answer that's why people are going to them.
On top of that most people are not against immigration as such. No one minds people who have values of the country, who are educated and hard working.
But what do the stats say, literal government stats, that the people that come in are less educated than the locals, they take more from the country and they commit more crime. At least some of them, or from some countries. These are the people that the locals want to stop. But the left says its racist to even talk about this and will do nothing about it, for the right they benefit due to being land or business owners. So who is remaining? The far right.
they take more from the country and they commit more crime.
Source? My understanding is that immigrants commit less crime per capita because they don't want the law enforcement exposure that could result in deportation.
Break down non immigrants would paint a similar, worse, picture then.
Do you really think wages would go up if foreign workers weren't hired? Why would they? What reason would companies have? If everyone pays shit, employees don't really have the choice of finding a better job regardless of who is being hired.
It seems to me that if you're worried about people not getting paid enough, then you should be fighting for higher wages, not less immigration.
But immigrants sure are a convenient scapegoat for those corporations, aren't they?
Supply and demand.
If there's less supply of workforce, workers are in a better position to demand better conditions or wages. Oversupply of workforce gives employers more power in turn.
More immigrants - or anything that balloons the workforce - helps the side of employers, even without considering the fact that most immigrants are satisfied with worse conditions and/or lower pay than western workers.
Like I said- convenient scapegoat you're making of immigrants on behalf of those corporations.
Not really, it's something I've lived through already before.
When the USSR collapsed, most of our industry imploded virtually overnight. Demand for work disappeared, and so did wages and worker rights; you are in no position to bargain when there's a line of people to replace anyone at the drop of a hat.
Then we joined the EU and the problem slowly fixed itself by... emigration! A LOT of people left to work in Germany and the UK, making the workforce scarce (=reducing supply). And let me tell you, it's a lot easier to negotiate with employers when people are hard to replace.
But go on, explain to me how bringing in a cheap workforce will improve the locals bargaining position on the job market.
The USSR? Where there weren't private corporations? How does that at all apply in a capitalist system?
And what I am explaining to you is that you are blaming immigrants when you should be blaming greedy corporations. You seem to think they will have your back if the borders are closed. They won't. That's not how capitalism works.
They weren't private but the management wasn't aby less shitty. And the moment the old system collapsed they turned even worse.
Also not sure how you came to the conclusion I think corporations would 'have my back'. I literally explained they'll only negotiate with workers as long as workers are not too expendable. It doesn't matter what makes workers expendable - societal changes, AI, immigration - the workers positon will worsen and corps will push against their rights.
Why do you think our govt is importing hundreds of thousands of workers from Asia? To push the wages down and be able to loosen worker rights. Because as long as the worker is replaceable - oversupply, if you will - they aren't in much position to push any demands.
Yes, you think they'll negotiate with you.
They won't.
They don't care about you, they care about making money. If they pay you more, they make less money.
You think they'll pay you more if there are no immigrants. They have no reason to. They don't like you more than they like foreigners.
As long as there isn't enough people waiting on jobs to easy replace someone, there is room for negation because if the guy packs up, the work won't be done and no money is made.
Sure, the company can pack up shop and relocate to a different country, but that also has a bunch of costs in itself. It may be more profitable to pay people slightly more - again, negotiation. But again, that is only possible if it isn't easier to just quickly hire someone else.
You don't need to believe me, just check how the average hungarian wage increased in the last 20 years. That's the effect when there aren't enough surplus workers, so employed people can't be easily replaced.
So your country has such a tiny population as so few people unemployed that if they banned all immigrants, corporations would not have enough employees to make profits and wouldn't finds some place to be more profitable if that's the case?
Because you're right, I don't believe you. Since that is not how anything works.
It's literally how it worked. You can check the statistics.
Human overpopulation should be a huge concern.
Yes. But it's not like we're importing humans from other planets.
We shouldn't support economic migration in our silly pyramid scheme system or we will end up turning canada into a desert too.
Yes. Canada the infamously packed country with no space for people. Canada that is 10% larger than the US and has less than 10% of the population of the US. If there is anyone more person moving to Canada there wont be enough air to breathe anymore!
Have you been to the Canadian shield? You cant grow food on rock thats covered in snow 7+ months of the year. Overpopulating canada in our more temperate areas just leads to less farm land to continue to feed the world with.
Canada is still not overpopulated in the temperate areas. 90% of Canadians life within a few miles of the US border. Canada is a net exporter of food.
Is this some 'great replacement' nonsense about how "they" are outbreeding "us?"
There is a bunch of cults breeding like rabbits for sure, I don't know what is us and them besides that we should protect and make better the land we were from and history has shown humans are a virus on the land killing biodiversity for shiny trinkets, so why bring more assholes here to pollute?
So that's a yes.
Ok i guess so please don't replace me with 10billion more homosapiens and extinct every other large mammal.
I'm aware and hope for it, Christianity hopefully gets replaced with some ideas whereas you're not required to have your head up own ass like it and its brother religion/cults
As if they could overpopulate those countries.
If they are allowed to stay, then they must adapt to each country's lifestyle.
Past 4 years puts it at 8,280,550. Or nearly 2.5% of the US Population. And this number is "interactions" meaning there's more coming across the border than that which goes undetected. Depending on where they specifically it's entirely possible for them to overpopulate areas and place undue burdens on infrastructures and social safety nets.
If waves of them hear that NYC is a great place to be and all head there, well now NYC has a burden of dealing with that cannot do things like pay into taxes legally (no SSN to report wages to). Depending on where you live, you very well could be observing "overpopulation". Or at least it may feel like that (more demand for housing, resources, etc.)
If they are allowed to stay, then they must adapt to each country’s lifestyle.
I agree with this. While America and other countries are all "melting pots" of sorts. There's a reason you migrated... If you're not willing to adapt to where you're going, then why did you leave where you came from?
Well, the people with migration backgrounds are overrepresented in crime stats, and crime is getting more violent. People just tend to ignore that the main driver for crime is lack of economic opportunity. These same people are also overrepresented in the low income bracket. Easy pret for criminals.. hey wanna make 500? Just climb over that fence and get me a package from that shipping container.
There are traumatized war refugees that cannot function normal on a good day, they get no guidance and nothing to do.. and people wonder why they flip out and do crazy shit.
There are young (adults), that get to sit in asylum centers and get to do nothing.. months on end. And people wonder why they go out and do stupid shit.
And then you have migrants that actually come to these countries to profiteer, knowing they will get kicked out so they enjoy it while it lasts.
There is plenty to be worried about with migrants of varying generations. But most of it is not solved by repression. But also not by bussing in more while wagging your finger at people worried about the crime in their neighborhood while telling them they are racist for noticing it is always dark skinned people that break in or deal drugs in their street.
My main issue with the right is usually their anti immigrant shit does not work, and actually solving the issues meana they lose their main recruitment tool. So they implement a lot of other bad laws while ignoring the issues that get them elected.
The flip side of that coin is if there are not enough opportunities for the current population adding more people is not a good idea.
Centrists move to the right no matter what happens.
That's kind of a weird take. Centrists have not always done that (otherwise society would get steadily more conservative century after century) so you can't just wave it away as meaningless. Instead I think liberals need to look at what is driving away centrists.
(it's immigration)
It's not that weird given that account is one of the idiotic "bOtH siDeS" posters.
Then why are there still centrists? Checkmake evolutionists!
Maybe that dismissive Attitude is the reason? Because you don't take our worries and opinions serious?
Because you attack us the moment we don't hold the exact same opinion as you?
Is this racism, or are there genuine concerns (they took er jerbs?)
Canadian here. Our immigration levels are rising faster than our ability to build infrastructure. Our hospitals and schools are overcrowded. Also a large percentage of our immigrants come from a couple countries it is not very diverse.
I still lean far left, but this has pushed a lot of people right.
Yea, but who builds infrastructure? Where I live, 50% of the workforce in construction is immigrants.
PS: I'm not saying what you say isn't true, it's just weird to see countries that were built by wave after wave of immigrants now say it's not working anymore. What changed from then to now?
PS2: https://www.vox.com/politics/351535/3-theories-for-americas-anti-immigrant-shift probably it's inequality making the majority of people feel like if they don't have enough for themselves, how can new people move in?
also: I was wrong, there's always been some pushback against the wrong kind of immigrants e.g.:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2024/immigration-history-race-quota-progress/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_United_States
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_Nothing
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/12/opinion/columbus-day-italian-american-racism.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Italianism
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Irish_sentiment
Fell down a rabbit hole, sorry for the linkdump, this stuff really puts into perspective the stuff happening in american politics today.
It is not being built though that is the problem.
Wasn't there a new infrastructure bill recently?
PS: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrastructure_Investment_and_Jobs_Act but it doesn't mention hospitals specifically.
That guy's in Canada. America's hat doesn't get that funding.
so they vote for right wing parties who oppose infrastructure and healthcare? makes sense
Instead of training locals they hire foreigners. Instead of raising wages due to market forces they hire foreigners. Instead of letting house prices go down they get foreigners.
All the things that the average working class person cares about. Cheap housing, jobs, job training. Is pushed further and further away from them and instead what benefits the landowners and business owners is given to them.
The best bit is the left who used to push for work for locals has been taken on the ride and basically say if anyone is against immigration in anyway is racist and will not discuss it under any circumstance. The only people that listen to the working class is the far right. It's literally the only answer that's why people are going to them.
On top of that most people are not against immigration as such. No one minds people who have values of the country, who are educated and hard working.
But what do the stats say, literal government stats, that the people that come in are less educated than the locals, they take more from the country and they commit more crime. At least some of them, or from some countries. These are the people that the locals want to stop. But the left says its racist to even talk about this and will do nothing about it, for the right they benefit due to being land or business owners. So who is remaining? The far right.
Source? My understanding is that immigrants commit less crime per capita because they don't want the law enforcement exposure that could result in deportation.
https://www.npr.org/2024/03/08/1237103158/immigrants-are-less-likely-to-commit-crimes-than-us-born-americans-studies-find
Thats in total. A lot can be hidden in averages. I agree that immigration can be good.
But break that down by country and by other metrics like education and skills. Things look a lot different.
Most people don't have an issue with immigration as such. They care about the type of immigration, and that never seems to come up in discussion.
https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-denmark
Break down non immigrants would paint a similar, worse, picture then.
Do you really think wages would go up if foreign workers weren't hired? Why would they? What reason would companies have? If everyone pays shit, employees don't really have the choice of finding a better job regardless of who is being hired.
It seems to me that if you're worried about people not getting paid enough, then you should be fighting for higher wages, not less immigration.
But immigrants sure are a convenient scapegoat for those corporations, aren't they?
Supply and demand.
If there's less supply of workforce, workers are in a better position to demand better conditions or wages. Oversupply of workforce gives employers more power in turn.
More immigrants - or anything that balloons the workforce - helps the side of employers, even without considering the fact that most immigrants are satisfied with worse conditions and/or lower pay than western workers.
Like I said- convenient scapegoat you're making of immigrants on behalf of those corporations.
Not really, it's something I've lived through already before.
When the USSR collapsed, most of our industry imploded virtually overnight. Demand for work disappeared, and so did wages and worker rights; you are in no position to bargain when there's a line of people to replace anyone at the drop of a hat.
Then we joined the EU and the problem slowly fixed itself by... emigration! A LOT of people left to work in Germany and the UK, making the workforce scarce (=reducing supply). And let me tell you, it's a lot easier to negotiate with employers when people are hard to replace.
But go on, explain to me how bringing in a cheap workforce will improve the locals bargaining position on the job market.
The USSR? Where there weren't private corporations? How does that at all apply in a capitalist system?
And what I am explaining to you is that you are blaming immigrants when you should be blaming greedy corporations. You seem to think they will have your back if the borders are closed. They won't. That's not how capitalism works.
They weren't private but the management wasn't aby less shitty. And the moment the old system collapsed they turned even worse.
Also not sure how you came to the conclusion I think corporations would 'have my back'. I literally explained they'll only negotiate with workers as long as workers are not too expendable. It doesn't matter what makes workers expendable - societal changes, AI, immigration - the workers positon will worsen and corps will push against their rights.
Why do you think our govt is importing hundreds of thousands of workers from Asia? To push the wages down and be able to loosen worker rights. Because as long as the worker is replaceable - oversupply, if you will - they aren't in much position to push any demands.
Yes, you think they'll negotiate with you.
They won't.
They don't care about you, they care about making money. If they pay you more, they make less money.
You think they'll pay you more if there are no immigrants. They have no reason to. They don't like you more than they like foreigners.
As long as there isn't enough people waiting on jobs to easy replace someone, there is room for negation because if the guy packs up, the work won't be done and no money is made.
Sure, the company can pack up shop and relocate to a different country, but that also has a bunch of costs in itself. It may be more profitable to pay people slightly more - again, negotiation. But again, that is only possible if it isn't easier to just quickly hire someone else.
You don't need to believe me, just check how the average hungarian wage increased in the last 20 years. That's the effect when there aren't enough surplus workers, so employed people can't be easily replaced.
So your country has such a tiny population as so few people unemployed that if they banned all immigrants, corporations would not have enough employees to make profits and wouldn't finds some place to be more profitable if that's the case?
Because you're right, I don't believe you. Since that is not how anything works.
It's literally how it worked. You can check the statistics.
Human overpopulation should be a huge concern.
Yes. But it's not like we're importing humans from other planets.
We shouldn't support economic migration in our silly pyramid scheme system or we will end up turning canada into a desert too.
Yes. Canada the infamously packed country with no space for people. Canada that is 10% larger than the US and has less than 10% of the population of the US. If there is anyone more person moving to Canada there wont be enough air to breathe anymore!
Have you been to the Canadian shield? You cant grow food on rock thats covered in snow 7+ months of the year. Overpopulating canada in our more temperate areas just leads to less farm land to continue to feed the world with.
Canada is still not overpopulated in the temperate areas. 90% of Canadians life within a few miles of the US border. Canada is a net exporter of food.
Is this some 'great replacement' nonsense about how "they" are outbreeding "us?"
There is a bunch of cults breeding like rabbits for sure, I don't know what is us and them besides that we should protect and make better the land we were from and history has shown humans are a virus on the land killing biodiversity for shiny trinkets, so why bring more assholes here to pollute?
So that's a yes.
Ok i guess so please don't replace me with 10billion more homosapiens and extinct every other large mammal.
This seems to be what you're talking about. Are you aware of it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement
I'm aware and hope for it, Christianity hopefully gets replaced with some ideas whereas you're not required to have your head up own ass like it and its brother religion/cults
As if they could overpopulate those countries.
If they are allowed to stay, then they must adapt to each country's lifestyle.
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/southwest-land-border-encounters
Past 4 years puts it at 8,280,550. Or nearly 2.5% of the US Population. And this number is "interactions" meaning there's more coming across the border than that which goes undetected. Depending on where they specifically it's entirely possible for them to overpopulate areas and place undue burdens on infrastructures and social safety nets.
If waves of them hear that NYC is a great place to be and all head there, well now NYC has a burden of dealing with that cannot do things like pay into taxes legally (no SSN to report wages to). Depending on where you live, you very well could be observing "overpopulation". Or at least it may feel like that (more demand for housing, resources, etc.)
I agree with this. While America and other countries are all "melting pots" of sorts. There's a reason you migrated... If you're not willing to adapt to where you're going, then why did you leave where you came from?
Well, the people with migration backgrounds are overrepresented in crime stats, and crime is getting more violent. People just tend to ignore that the main driver for crime is lack of economic opportunity. These same people are also overrepresented in the low income bracket. Easy pret for criminals.. hey wanna make 500? Just climb over that fence and get me a package from that shipping container.
There is plenty to be worried about with migrants of varying generations. But most of it is not solved by repression. But also not by bussing in more while wagging your finger at people worried about the crime in their neighborhood while telling them they are racist for noticing it is always dark skinned people that break in or deal drugs in their street.
My main issue with the right is usually their anti immigrant shit does not work, and actually solving the issues meana they lose their main recruitment tool. So they implement a lot of other bad laws while ignoring the issues that get them elected.
The flip side of that coin is if there are not enough opportunities for the current population adding more people is not a good idea.
Centrists move to the right no matter what happens.
That's kind of a weird take. Centrists have not always done that (otherwise society would get steadily more conservative century after century) so you can't just wave it away as meaningless. Instead I think liberals need to look at what is driving away centrists. (it's immigration)
It's not that weird given that account is one of the idiotic "bOtH siDeS" posters.
Then why are there still centrists? Checkmake evolutionists!
Maybe that dismissive Attitude is the reason? Because you don't take our worries and opinions serious?
Because you attack us the moment we don't hold the exact same opinion as you?
No, I'm sure that's not the reason!
Get used to this being used as a weapon of hybrid warfare by enemies of the west
*Black people fears are pushing racists to the right