I finally got around to watching it. Biden did not look like a corpse. He looked and sounded like a fucken eighty year old man because he is. Trump's unending torrent of lies was unhinged and that doesn't get covered. Biden looked as fucken pissed as an old ass dude can when he clapped back about his son not being a loser and that was pretty good. Everyone is clamoring over the obvious. Biden is fucken old. We know this. This is what Trump will be like at the end of the next presidency if he is elected but far more insane.
Biden was bad for the first 10 minutes. By the 40 minute mark he was fine but he already lost the audience and the tiny attention span of modern Americans is evident.
That's... Whatever. I get it. We're in the tiktok age of short discussions. Expect more of this moving forward.
I don’t think that’s true. He was especially bad for the first bit of it but throughout he was stumbling over words, mumbling, he was hoarse. And then he got worse at the tail end too and forgot what he was even saying during his closing. Also what’s up with the listing things in numbers over and over and over? The whole thing was really awful to listen to and I’ve never heard him sound older honestly.
Using numbered lists is a common tactic in debates and other public speaking when you have prepared talking points you want to hit.
Basically it's a mnemonic technique to help make sure you list all of your best points/pieces of evidence. You list them in the same order every time so that to recall the next point on the list you just need to remember the overall topic and the number that you're on. That way it's easier to contextualize the memory and retrieve it consistently.
Did everyone forget Biden's 2020 performance?
When Biden is being forced and trained like this, he's awful. It wasn't until the 2nd or 3rd debate where all the debate-prep finally decided 'Let Biden go out there without prep and just be more honest with himself / honest personal style" that Biden did well.
I should have known that "Weeks of debate prep at Camp David" was a bad idea.
Luckily, presidents duties and performance in their job is not dependent upon these stupid "debates."
Anyways, Biden has always been an absolutely horrible public speaker. He mumbles, stumbles over words and rambles on. That's not his string suit, but it doesn't particularly matter for his job performance.
However, yes he is old. But at least he surrounds himself with incredibly talented staff, picks amazing leaders to run in his cabinet, and seems to generally listen and take advice.
Which is the polar opposite of what trump does., in so many ways.
We all know he’s old. That’s the problem. His time is up and the sooner he accepts it, the sooner we can look for a replacement. Believing he is the only one who can beat trump is ridiculous.
It's too late. If the Dems wanted to switch candidates they should have started 2 years ago. There's not enough time to get aligned on a new candidate and ramp up a presidential candidate capable of the turnout necessary to beat Trump. And there's too much at stake.
Biden dropping out would be a huge gift for Trump at this point.
Biden running is a huge gift for Trump
He's already the incumbent. You'd need Roosevelt Reborn to come down from the fucken skies to have a chance in this polarized landscape. I dont think switching would pay off. I think its a checkmate.
If you throw out Trump’s out right lies he preformed better then Biden and debated fairly well and was reserved. I say that as someone going this is really the best America has to offer. Biden will do just fine in office he has a good team of people around him. This debate was not gonna change my mind on who I am voting for. Just sucks where we are at
If you throw out the lies what's left is incoherent ramblings and statements like "black jobs".
“The decision-makers are two people — it’s the president and his wife,” one of the sources familiar with the discussions said, adding: “Anyone who doesn’t understand how deeply personal and familial this decision will be isn’t knowledgeable about the situation.”
The DNC keeps saying it up to Biden...
Which is the exact opposite of what their lawyers have spent the last decade saying
We could have—and we could have voluntarily decided that, Look, we’re gonna go into back rooms like they used to and smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way. That’s not the way it was done. But they could have. And that would have also been their right
The DNC can say Biden isn't the best shot at beating trump, so they're not going with Biden.
They just don't want to.
They only want to pull the party right, never left.
Even if that means republicans win.
But this isnt just a "deeply personal and familial decision" it's the fucking future of our country and it's more important than Joe Biden
But one DNC lawyer’s argument actually tries to justify the party’s right to be biased on behalf of one primary candidate over another, according to an article from The Young Turks. In other words, they could have chosen their nominee over cigars in a backroom. That’s what the attorney reportedly said in a Florida federal court:
Do you have a more reliable source than "a laywer said"? Do you know which lawyer is alleged to have said it? Do you know if that lawyer is still working for the DNC? Have the DNC bylaws changed sine 2017 when this quote is alleged to be from?
You're making a lot of assumptions based on a poorly sourced anonymous quote from 7 years ago.
They may be referring to the Wilding v. DNC Services Corp case. DNC lawyers argued that they could overturn the democratic results of the primary if they so choose.
The DNC won that case.
To clarify, that case was thrown out becuase plaintiffs lacked standing. I guess that counts as the DNC winning?
Plaintiffs filed a putative class action alleging that during the 2016 Democratic presidential primaries the DNC and its chairwoman improperly tipped the scales in favor of former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who was challenging Senator Bernie Sanders for the Democratic presidential nomination.
This website reports a similar quote about replacing candidates though with more context:
[I]f you had a charity where somebody said, Hey, I'm gonna take this money and use it for a specific purpose, X, and they pocketed it and stole the money, of course that's different. But here, where you have a party that's saying, We're gonna, you know, choose our standard bearer, and we're gonna follow these general rules of the road, which we are voluntarily deciding, we could have — and we could have voluntarily decided that, Look, we're gonna go into back rooms like they used to and smoke cigars and pick the candidate that way. That's not the way it was done. But they could have. And that would have also been their right, and it would drag the Court well into party politics, internal party politics to answer those questions." - DNC attorney Bruce Spiva
That isn't the entire quote and it seems to be missing some important context. The link to the transcript is dead unfortunately.
Even if that is the complete context:
I don't know if what Spiva is saying is legally true. As the Trump trial has shown us just because a lawyer argues something in court does not mean it's true or legal.
Assuming what Spiva is saying was true then and is still true now, he also says "And that would have also been their right, and it would drag the Court well into party politics, internal party politics to answer those questions." I'm not 100% sure what this means because of the missing context, but it seems to imply simply picking the candidate in a cigar filled room would have brought legal trouble to the DNC.
It's still not clear the DNC can unilaterally replace Biden as the candidate without his consent. If they did it would open a whole host of new problems, the least of which is how do the pick the new nominee now that nearly all states have already held their primaries.
Saying "it's a simple thing that has to happen, just do it DNC" is just blatant misinformation.
Also, Spiva appears to no longer work for the DNC. It isn't clear if their current counsel holds the same opinion.
To clarify, that case was thrown out becuase plaintiffs lacked standing.
To further clarify, the court threw out 2 of the claims due to lack of standing. The other 4 claims were dismissed on the merits.
The court held that the plaintiffs' claims of fraud, negligent misrepresentation, consumer law violations, and unjust enrichment failed on the merits and directed those claims to be dismissed with prejudice. The court held that plaintiffs' claims of negligence and breach of fiduciary duty failed for lack of standing,
Biden is already the incumbent, and the DNC has spent a huge amount of resources supporting him.
Of course they have to defer to him because he can just run. We're in a very different position than before the primaries.
I wish he’d do the right thing and drop out. It’s 2 months until the convention and there is a long list of people who are not trump. The bar is low and any D will do at this point
Biden shouldn't drop out until a solid plan moving forward is established.
Do we even know if a Democrat can unify the party if he drops out? Or will the replacement be worse?
As I've pointed out in other topics: people need to start listing names, and I need to start seeing those names consolidate into one obvious choice. IMO, Newcom, Kamala and Buttigege are out as non-starters.
Kamalas best chance is for Biden to hold the election and then promise to resign on January 2025 for example. Which I'm not particularly against but y'all ignore the racism of Pennsylvania and Arizona voters at your own peril. Biden serves as a useful shield for Kamala in this instance.
Buttigege is worse. An openly gay man in this age where Don't Say Gay is entering mainstream is a political mistake. Newcom is all sorts of compromised on both left and right issues.
Man...
Sounds like the party should have let an open and fair primary happen...
Could have seen what Biden on a debate stage was like 6 months ago...
Voters could have had all sorts of time to evaluate possible paths forward....
Sounds like the party should have let an open and fair primary happen…
Its yall's problem. I'm a Republican. I barely know the Democratic ticket.
But who did best in the Primaries anyway? Do you think they can seriously unify the party and make a strong anti-Trump candidate?
Its yall’s problem. I’m a Republican. I barely know the Democratic ticket
So...
You don't know anything about what people are talking about here, by your own admission...
You're just a Republican here to tell us no matter what Biden is the only option besides trump?
You're just a Republican here to tell us no matter what Biden is the only option besides trump?
This is lemmy, yes.
I feel like the vast amount of "Biden supporters" online these days are just flat out republicans trying to make sure Biden is their worst case scenario...
It's the only way any of this makes sense.
None of them can give any real reasons why Biden is the best candidate, they just keep repeating "it's too late".
I listed two options I think would work for me:
Biden
Kamala (using Biden as a shield)
Of course, #1 and #2 are basically identical. So the easiest thing for the Democrats to do is just lean into #2.
In any case, I think this discussion is still useful to have. Whoever you pick needs to win Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia like Biden did vs Trump. Do you know of any candidate who can perform similarly to Biden in these states?
You’re just a Republican here to tell us no matter what Biden is the only option besides trump?
I'm a Republican here wondering if yall actually have a plan, or if this is another one of those "Occupy Wall Street" situations where a bunch of Republicans get voted in a few months after yall's temper tantrum. (Occupy Wall Street was 2011. And we all know how 2012, 2014, and 2016 went immediately afterwards).
For better or worse, you know you need me and my perspective on this matter. Lest you lose Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Arizona and let Trump take the victory.
If yall Occupy Wall Street / kill your own political chances again this year because you got freaked out that Biden was acting as old as any 80+ year old would... okay, you deserve the loss that's coming to you. But before you make an irreversible mistake, lets talk through this. I want Trump to lose as much as you do.
Note: I'm not necessarily against you changing candidates this late in the game. But I want to know what your overall plans are, and why you actually think that improves your political chances.
I listed two options I think would work for me
You also told me you're a Republican and know nothing of the Democratic party or what its voters want...
So let me give you some advice, for Republican candidates I want:
Boots Riley
Optimus Prime.
For better or worse, you know you need me and my perspective on this matter. Lest you lose Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Arizona and let Trump take the victory.
No we don't.
Because Obama 08 didn't need help from "moderate Dems" and he sure didn't need help from Republicans.
The entire problem with the modern DNC is they ignore their base and chase Republicans.
Who will always say the DNC isn't conservative enough.
It creates these feedback loop where the party gets more and more conservative leaving behind more and more of its own voters.
We can just leave you all behind, and give voters a candidate they like. A progressive candidate.
We can just leave you all behind, and give voters a candidate they like. A progressive candidate.
Okay. Name the candidate.
Except we both know you don't have a name, and that's why you're going through this exercise of avoiding uncomfortable truths.
Go get that name, start pushing that name consistently, start saying [Insert Specific Name Here] is a better choice than Biden and MAYBE you have a chance.
But for now, you're just giving Republicans in general a field day and a ton of joy by attacking Biden.
I've never seen a better ambassador of the Republican party.
You have truly personified the meme of a pigeon walking up to a chessboard.
I'm an Anti-Trump Republican. I'm quite interested in seeing what yall's plan is to fight Trump this fall, and frankly, I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing in this topic yet.
Hopefully you all figure something out by next week. And if not next week, the week after that. But your time is short, and time is ticking.
I'm likely voting for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is. But none of this internal Democrats's chaos is my responsibility or my problem. I'm just here to point out that you have a large degree of my support from being anti-Trump, but I can't go so far left as Bernie (or some other progressives you got).
That's really all I'm here to point out.
In any case, figure out a name. Otherwise Democrats will lose. And figure out a name before you get rid of Biden/Kamala. You're throwing away a decent candidate with a decent anti-Trump record for literally nobody right now.
Bernie is older, but sharp as ever. I know it’ll never happen though. The DNC would rather give it to trump, again
No kidding, if y'all put Bernie in as Democrat pick I'm voting fucking Trump.
The other ones (Kamala, Buttigege and Newcom) I might be fine with. But 100% Bernie is far left bullshit I for one am not putting up with. And no, we ain't gonna go with an even older candidate who is far more extreme.
EDIT: I'm a Republican. You have me on some candidates. Newcom is... a stretch but I can imagine myself voting for him vs Trump, but not much else. Kamala and Buttigege I can be fine with but I don't think they can win Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan.
Bernie? He's too far left and very extreme in my eyes. Bernie (and his cohort of Occupy Wall Street dumbasses) don't even understand how the world works, how families react to some of these policies or whatever. It'd be an instant and immediate loss for the Democrats. Sorry to say. He's so far left I personally need to vote against that. You're going too far.
Just curious, what far left bullshit?
The Dem party platform apparently...
But PUMA didn't stop Obama either.
No matter how loud "moderates" get, they're a very small voting block. They're just overrepresented in party leadership
He's literally running as a socialist.
Free housing, free health care, free everything. It sounds good until you look at Venezuela.
When we point out... oh... I dunno... how Venezuela collapses because of government takeover as private entities or their other socialist policies (which directly have similarities to Bernie's discussion points), yall just ignore us.
We're seriously having issues coming up with a budget where Social Security does fine over the next 20 years, and Bernie over here is reaching to the far, far, far extreme and going "Not only Free Social Security, but Free Housing and Health Care on top of it". Okaaaaaaayyyyyyy. Lets talk about the taxes needed to get that funded.
Hell, can we even start with the taxes we need to keep Social Security going?
And you can see the problem right after that. Bernie is fully unrealistic. Its the benefit of being on the flank, Bernie can promise the world because he doesn't actually have to worry about the details of his proposals.
I wouldn’t pass on the free education, if I were you
Lets put it this way.
Do you know how Elon Musk tricks his dumbass followers that they're all going to Mars? And its so ridiculous that no one actually seriously talks about the overall plan?
That's Bernie Sanders. No one seriously debates him because its so far out. Seeing a couple of followers get strung up in Bernie's moonshots is whatever, its going to happen. But nothing will come from it, and Bernie knows that. (Much like how Elon knows all the bullshit he spews is nothing either).
I get that its a popular way to get a niche following. But when we're talking about a real Presidential candidate, hopes and dreams aren't quite good enough. You'll need to talk about things that are ya know, at least close to political reality.
Or if Elon Musk is a bad example, consider how the Abortion debate played out. Back 10 years ago, it wasn't really a real discussion point. Today, it is, and now its suddenly a problem for Republicans because the implementation details of Abortion bans are really fucking stupid.
Same thing with Bernie. By the time Bernie is in office, its too late to realize that it was all bullshittery and the numbers simply don't line up.
On healthcare: removing the profit incentives of private health insurance drives down costs as well as frees up money to pay for universal coverage. It's not free Healthcare and has never been referred to as such unless people are debating in bad faith. He wrote the Medicare for All bill and just because you aren't aware of the details doesn't mean Sanders didn't have them.
On housing: again calling it free housing is a disingenuous bait. His housing policy had so many facets that even if only half his proposals were put into place, it would do wonders to improve the situation for millions of Americans. Federal funding for expanding Community Land Trusts (if you don't know what CLTs are you should look it up), combat gentrification/exclusionary zoning/segregation/speculation, expand the National Affordable Housing Trust Fund a fund that he was responsible for and fought for 15 years to become the first new federal affordable housing program funded in several decades, tenant protections like New York's right to counsel that was created in 2017, which saw their eviction rates drop five times faster than comparable areas. God damn man I could keep going but if I haven't made my point why waste the effort.
All of this could easily be paid by taxing the wealthy and reducing military spending. Would that be a problem for you?
The fuck do I hear Bernie saying "Medicare for All" ?
That's literally free Healthcare as his top-of-the-line discussion point for the last decade.
All of this could easily be paid by taxing the wealthy and reducing military spending. Would that be a problem for you?
Where does Ukraine and Taiwan fit in that reduced military spending?
Ah right, Bernie is also isolationist. He probably doesn't give a shit. And even if we don't support Israel (I know how the left feels about that), we the USA need to continue to patrol the Red Sea vs not just the Houthis, but also Somali Pirates and other threats.
Military spending is going up, by any realistic discussion. Ukraine is only heating up, and Taiwan is likely getting hotter and hotter as China literally cuts off Filipino fingers and uses them to bully others in the Far East. If yall think peace will happen by reducing US Military spending at this juncture, you're losing my vote.
Bonus points: I'm also Filipino. So consider myself, and my family, very interested in hearing what the Democrats actually have to say about far-east stability / Taiwan / China's increasingly aggressive actions.
Military spending is going up, and not because anyone wants war. But because its necessary to keep the peace. USA has no control over China or Russia, we only have control over our own spending. And we must keep our spending up with them as they get more aggressive.
You're either trolling or too stubborn to evaluate new information that might change your position.
Medicare For All is not free healthcare, as in on the government's dime, it is entirely paid for by taxes. (Unless you actually object to free healthcare as in being able to go to the hospital when you need it for free, which is too ludicrous to be sincere.) The only reason it seems "free" is that the total operating cost of the system without the middleman of private insurance is significantly lower than our existing healthcare spending.
Most households would significantly increase their spending power throughout the year by eliminating healthcare premiums, deductibles, copays, and prescription costs in excess of $200 a year, and would only see a smaller increase at tax time. Those who would be paying more in total are very wealthy households who would be paying primarily at tax time, and frankly many of those households have not been paying their fair share of taxes already, so I find it hard to see that as a bad thing.
Medicare For All is not free healthcare, as in on the government’s dime, it is entirely paid for by taxes.
Yeah, no shit sherlock. Socialist / Communist countries like Cuba also pay for Health Care.
That doesn't change the fact that several important examples (Soviet Union, Cuba, and now most recently, Venezuela) have collapsed... or are currently collapsing under that load and those costs.
We know plenty of examples of countries who have done that. My question is why the fuck do you want to bring it to the USA?
Yeah, and Medicare / Social Security are already going bankrupt by 2040.
A gross expansion of those programs will make them go bankrupt even faster. You need to explain how to raise money for a "Medicare for All" program... and not just "Well fuck Taiwan / Phillipines / Far East / Ukraine / everyone else in the world".
We're going to have our hands full just keeping the programs available over the next few decades, and you want to expand them?
If we nominate Bernie it's not to win you over. It would win over leftists who otherwise wouldn't vote Democrat.
No offense but I don't actually believe that you are on the fence about whether or not you'll vote for Trump.
If we nominate Bernie it’s not to win you over. It would win over leftists who otherwise wouldn’t vote Democrat.
Dude: Kamala is seen as too far left that she's probably going to lose to Trump on a head-to-head matchup and you're talking Bernie still.
Bro: You are voting fascist.
Ideally not.
Hopefully you can offer me a good enough candidate where I don't feel like supporting the fascist. But if you go too far left, there's a point where fascism doesn't look as bad. No joke.
But the further left you go, the more points you lose out on me. I'm relatively religious (not the most compared to my family, but moreso than you guys I'm sure). I'm Republican, conservative. Etc. etc. There's threats to me and my way of life that the far left seriously have, and nothing yall say here are changing my opinion on that (or removing said threats from me).
I would have preferred if the Republicans fielded Niki Haley, but apparently that was too hard for them too. So now I'm seeing who the Democrats want to field. Ideally someone I can vote for, because trust me, I don't want to vote for Trump.
I promise you, there's a ton of other people like me in the center who are thinking the same thing. The name-of-the-game is figuring out a candidate to keep enough of us voting Democrat this fall (not necessarily me, but hopefully enough to gain and counteract the loss of my vote).
I'm here to discuss my opinion with all of you openly, because I know that Lemmy leans so far left that yall are fucking nuts and need my opinion to tie you back down to where reality is. Believe it or not, I'm here to help, and that's why we're having this discussion right now at all.
This isn't about just picking the most progressive candidate you can think of. Biden was the perfect choice for me and yall are now thinking of getting rid of him. Okay, so are you fine losing my vote? Or alternatively, do you think you can give me someone who is at least moderate enough (like Biden) to handle my concerns about the world? (IE: Ukraine and Taiwan in particular).
Alternatively, you can consider me to just be a nutcase and ignore me. But I don't think that's beneficial to you as a group either. Mostly because I know who the real nutcases are (ie: full on MAGA Trump supporters over there). I'm the one who have switched from Republican vote from 2008 / 2012 over to Democrat vote with the rise of Trump in 2016+, so I think I am actually an ideal case study for this discussion. That's all.
You've already given up the benefit of the doubt by admitting you'd vote fascist. I simply don't believe the honesty of your promises.
So you're going to kill this discussion with me just because you don't like my opinion? Cool. Lets see how that plays out this year. Its a fucking election year, get used to hearing people's opinions you don't like.
People will vote one way or the other on this issue. With any luck the Democrats put a good moderate on board who can keep my vote (as well as the Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Georgia voters). Biden vs Trump already was looking sketchy before you progressives literally destroyed your best chance at beating Trump.
And suddenly, you're blaming me for your own mistake... because I have the audacity to try to talk with you and share my opinion.
I'm sorry, that I'm not sorry.
In any case, Trump needs to be defeated, so I'm going to stay loud about my message. Yall progressives can't Occupy Wall Street into Republican wins again this year. This is too important for me to stay silent. You fucking dumbasses are destroying your own election chances as we speak, and its best if I pointed out this before its too late. (And yall have done it before, and you're doing it again).
If you really are going to switch candidates this late in the game, then for the love of god please put someone I can vote for (and other voters like me). That's all I'm asking. Don't lose the anti-Trump Republican vote over this self-defeating move you all seem intent upon inflicting upon yourselves. Please be at least a little bit politically expedient about the situation?
FYI: "Hey Fascist" is so passe it was in the Barbie last year. Its a bad argument now. Come up with a new one. You've been calling Republicans Fascists for 8 years now, the phrase has lost its effect. You'll need to try harder if you actually want to convince people or surprise us.
Being verbose won't un-say it...
For fucks sake man, I'm here to try to help you beat Trump
You're lucky I'm not easily discouraged. But your attitude about this is quite wrong.
Everyone else in this topic: you see the problem with your rhetoric or strategy yet? Let's point out what does and doesn't work here.
Kamala Harris is the sitting VP. She is in the conversation by default. If God exercises His ultimate recall vote on Biden tomorrow, then Harris inherits both the job and the ticket.
Exactly.
So making Kamala the top of the ticket does nothing but energize the racists to vote against her.
There is no point putting Kamala front and center. Just have Biden resign in January after serving as a political shield for Kamala.
There's no need to shield Harris, the racists are going to be triggered regardless, that's what those snowflakes do.
Except the racists did vote for Biden in 2020, despite Harris being the VP.
Arizona ain't exactly a happy-go-lucky civil rights state. Do you really have assurances that Arizona goes to Kamala if she's on the top of the ticket?
“President Biden’s family is urging him to stay in the race and keep fighting despite last week’s disastrous debate performance, even as some members of his clan privately expressed exasperation at how he was prepared for the event by his staff, people close to the situation said on Sunday,” the New York Times reports.
“Mr. Biden huddled with his wife, children and grandchildren at Camp David while he tried to figure out how to tamp down Democratic anxiety. While his relatives are acutely aware of how poorly he did against former President Donald J. Trump, they argued that he could still show the country that he is capable of serving for another four years.”
“Mr. Biden has also been soliciting ideas from advisers about how to proceed, and his staff has been discussing whether he should hold a news conference or sit for interviews to defend himself to change the narrative, but nothing has been decided yet.”
His performance was poor enough that I'd argue he not only should step down as the candidate, he should step down as President and let Harris run the show for the rest of the year.
Like, it's hard to make the call, but someone has to be the adult in the room and take Grandpa's keys before his next trip to Country Kitchen Buffet.
Everybody wants to act like Biden isn't driving down the interstate with our kids in the backseat.
It's not enough that's he's not intentionally trying to get in a crash, he needs to be a safe driver. And we can't just let Grandpa keep driving till he gets on the interstate via an exit ramp. We need to take his license before he kills anyone.
I finally got around to watching it. Biden did not look like a corpse. He looked and sounded like a fucken eighty year old man because he is. Trump's unending torrent of lies was unhinged and that doesn't get covered. Biden looked as fucken pissed as an old ass dude can when he clapped back about his son not being a loser and that was pretty good. Everyone is clamoring over the obvious. Biden is fucken old. We know this. This is what Trump will be like at the end of the next presidency if he is elected but far more insane.
Biden was bad for the first 10 minutes. By the 40 minute mark he was fine but he already lost the audience and the tiny attention span of modern Americans is evident.
That's... Whatever. I get it. We're in the tiktok age of short discussions. Expect more of this moving forward.
I don’t think that’s true. He was especially bad for the first bit of it but throughout he was stumbling over words, mumbling, he was hoarse. And then he got worse at the tail end too and forgot what he was even saying during his closing. Also what’s up with the listing things in numbers over and over and over? The whole thing was really awful to listen to and I’ve never heard him sound older honestly.
Using numbered lists is a common tactic in debates and other public speaking when you have prepared talking points you want to hit.
Basically it's a mnemonic technique to help make sure you list all of your best points/pieces of evidence. You list them in the same order every time so that to recall the next point on the list you just need to remember the overall topic and the number that you're on. That way it's easier to contextualize the memory and retrieve it consistently.
Did everyone forget Biden's 2020 performance?
When Biden is being forced and trained like this, he's awful. It wasn't until the 2nd or 3rd debate where all the debate-prep finally decided 'Let Biden go out there without prep and just be more honest with himself / honest personal style" that Biden did well.
I should have known that "Weeks of debate prep at Camp David" was a bad idea.
Luckily, presidents duties and performance in their job is not dependent upon these stupid "debates."
Anyways, Biden has always been an absolutely horrible public speaker. He mumbles, stumbles over words and rambles on. That's not his string suit, but it doesn't particularly matter for his job performance.
However, yes he is old. But at least he surrounds himself with incredibly talented staff, picks amazing leaders to run in his cabinet, and seems to generally listen and take advice.
Which is the polar opposite of what trump does., in so many ways.
We all know he’s old. That’s the problem. His time is up and the sooner he accepts it, the sooner we can look for a replacement. Believing he is the only one who can beat trump is ridiculous.
It's too late. If the Dems wanted to switch candidates they should have started 2 years ago. There's not enough time to get aligned on a new candidate and ramp up a presidential candidate capable of the turnout necessary to beat Trump. And there's too much at stake.
Biden dropping out would be a huge gift for Trump at this point.
Biden running is a huge gift for Trump
He's already the incumbent. You'd need Roosevelt Reborn to come down from the fucken skies to have a chance in this polarized landscape. I dont think switching would pay off. I think its a checkmate.
If you throw out Trump’s out right lies he preformed better then Biden and debated fairly well and was reserved. I say that as someone going this is really the best America has to offer. Biden will do just fine in office he has a good team of people around him. This debate was not gonna change my mind on who I am voting for. Just sucks where we are at
If you throw out the lies what's left is incoherent ramblings and statements like "black jobs".
The DNC keeps saying it up to Biden...
Which is the exact opposite of what their lawyers have spent the last decade saying
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/dnc-lawyer-reportedly-said-they-could-have-chosen-between-clinton-sanders-over-cigars-in-back-rooms/
The DNC can say Biden isn't the best shot at beating trump, so they're not going with Biden.
They just don't want to.
They only want to pull the party right, never left.
Even if that means republicans win.
But this isnt just a "deeply personal and familial decision" it's the fucking future of our country and it's more important than Joe Biden
Do you have a more reliable source than "a laywer said"? Do you know which lawyer is alleged to have said it? Do you know if that lawyer is still working for the DNC? Have the DNC bylaws changed sine 2017 when this quote is alleged to be from?
You're making a lot of assumptions based on a poorly sourced anonymous quote from 7 years ago.
They may be referring to the Wilding v. DNC Services Corp case. DNC lawyers argued that they could overturn the democratic results of the primary if they so choose.
The DNC won that case.
To clarify, that case was thrown out becuase plaintiffs lacked standing. I guess that counts as the DNC winning?
In Wilding v DNC:
This website reports a similar quote about replacing candidates though with more context:
That isn't the entire quote and it seems to be missing some important context. The link to the transcript is dead unfortunately.
Even if that is the complete context:
It's still not clear the DNC can unilaterally replace Biden as the candidate without his consent. If they did it would open a whole host of new problems, the least of which is how do the pick the new nominee now that nearly all states have already held their primaries.
Saying "it's a simple thing that has to happen, just do it DNC" is just blatant misinformation.
Also, Spiva appears to no longer work for the DNC. It isn't clear if their current counsel holds the same opinion.
To further clarify, the court threw out 2 of the claims due to lack of standing. The other 4 claims were dismissed on the merits.
Biden is already the incumbent, and the DNC has spent a huge amount of resources supporting him.
Of course they have to defer to him because he can just run. We're in a very different position than before the primaries.
I wish he’d do the right thing and drop out. It’s 2 months until the convention and there is a long list of people who are not trump. The bar is low and any D will do at this point
Biden shouldn't drop out until a solid plan moving forward is established.
Do we even know if a Democrat can unify the party if he drops out? Or will the replacement be worse?
As I've pointed out in other topics: people need to start listing names, and I need to start seeing those names consolidate into one obvious choice. IMO, Newcom, Kamala and Buttigege are out as non-starters.
Kamalas best chance is for Biden to hold the election and then promise to resign on January 2025 for example. Which I'm not particularly against but y'all ignore the racism of Pennsylvania and Arizona voters at your own peril. Biden serves as a useful shield for Kamala in this instance.
Buttigege is worse. An openly gay man in this age where Don't Say Gay is entering mainstream is a political mistake. Newcom is all sorts of compromised on both left and right issues.
Man...
Sounds like the party should have let an open and fair primary happen...
Could have seen what Biden on a debate stage was like 6 months ago...
Voters could have had all sorts of time to evaluate possible paths forward....
Its yall's problem. I'm a Republican. I barely know the Democratic ticket.
But who did best in the Primaries anyway? Do you think they can seriously unify the party and make a strong anti-Trump candidate?
So...
You don't know anything about what people are talking about here, by your own admission...
You're just a Republican here to tell us no matter what Biden is the only option besides trump?
This is lemmy, yes.
I feel like the vast amount of "Biden supporters" online these days are just flat out republicans trying to make sure Biden is their worst case scenario...
It's the only way any of this makes sense.
None of them can give any real reasons why Biden is the best candidate, they just keep repeating "it's too late".
I listed two options I think would work for me:
Biden
Kamala (using Biden as a shield)
Of course, #1 and #2 are basically identical. So the easiest thing for the Democrats to do is just lean into #2.
In any case, I think this discussion is still useful to have. Whoever you pick needs to win Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania and Georgia like Biden did vs Trump. Do you know of any candidate who can perform similarly to Biden in these states?
I'm a Republican here wondering if yall actually have a plan, or if this is another one of those "Occupy Wall Street" situations where a bunch of Republicans get voted in a few months after yall's temper tantrum. (Occupy Wall Street was 2011. And we all know how 2012, 2014, and 2016 went immediately afterwards).
For better or worse, you know you need me and my perspective on this matter. Lest you lose Michigan, Pennsylvania, Georgia and Arizona and let Trump take the victory.
If yall Occupy Wall Street / kill your own political chances again this year because you got freaked out that Biden was acting as old as any 80+ year old would... okay, you deserve the loss that's coming to you. But before you make an irreversible mistake, lets talk through this. I want Trump to lose as much as you do.
Note: I'm not necessarily against you changing candidates this late in the game. But I want to know what your overall plans are, and why you actually think that improves your political chances.
You also told me you're a Republican and know nothing of the Democratic party or what its voters want...
So let me give you some advice, for Republican candidates I want:
Boots Riley
Optimus Prime.
No we don't.
Because Obama 08 didn't need help from "moderate Dems" and he sure didn't need help from Republicans.
The entire problem with the modern DNC is they ignore their base and chase Republicans.
Who will always say the DNC isn't conservative enough.
It creates these feedback loop where the party gets more and more conservative leaving behind more and more of its own voters.
We can just leave you all behind, and give voters a candidate they like. A progressive candidate.
Okay. Name the candidate.
Except we both know you don't have a name, and that's why you're going through this exercise of avoiding uncomfortable truths.
Go get that name, start pushing that name consistently, start saying [Insert Specific Name Here] is a better choice than Biden and MAYBE you have a chance.
But for now, you're just giving Republicans in general a field day and a ton of joy by attacking Biden.
I've never seen a better ambassador of the Republican party.
You have truly personified the meme of a pigeon walking up to a chessboard.
I'm an Anti-Trump Republican. I'm quite interested in seeing what yall's plan is to fight Trump this fall, and frankly, I'm not impressed with what I'm seeing in this topic yet.
Hopefully you all figure something out by next week. And if not next week, the week after that. But your time is short, and time is ticking.
I'm likely voting for the Democratic candidate, whoever it is. But none of this internal Democrats's chaos is my responsibility or my problem. I'm just here to point out that you have a large degree of my support from being anti-Trump, but I can't go so far left as Bernie (or some other progressives you got).
That's really all I'm here to point out.
In any case, figure out a name. Otherwise Democrats will lose. And figure out a name before you get rid of Biden/Kamala. You're throwing away a decent candidate with a decent anti-Trump record for literally nobody right now.
Bernie is older, but sharp as ever. I know it’ll never happen though. The DNC would rather give it to trump, again
No kidding, if y'all put Bernie in as Democrat pick I'm voting fucking Trump.
The other ones (Kamala, Buttigege and Newcom) I might be fine with. But 100% Bernie is far left bullshit I for one am not putting up with. And no, we ain't gonna go with an even older candidate who is far more extreme.
EDIT: I'm a Republican. You have me on some candidates. Newcom is... a stretch but I can imagine myself voting for him vs Trump, but not much else. Kamala and Buttigege I can be fine with but I don't think they can win Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan.
Bernie? He's too far left and very extreme in my eyes. Bernie (and his cohort of Occupy Wall Street dumbasses) don't even understand how the world works, how families react to some of these policies or whatever. It'd be an instant and immediate loss for the Democrats. Sorry to say. He's so far left I personally need to vote against that. You're going too far.
Just curious, what far left bullshit?
The Dem party platform apparently...
But PUMA didn't stop Obama either.
No matter how loud "moderates" get, they're a very small voting block. They're just overrepresented in party leadership
He's literally running as a socialist.
Free housing, free health care, free everything. It sounds good until you look at Venezuela.
When we point out... oh... I dunno... how Venezuela collapses because of government takeover as private entities or their other socialist policies (which directly have similarities to Bernie's discussion points), yall just ignore us.
We're seriously having issues coming up with a budget where Social Security does fine over the next 20 years, and Bernie over here is reaching to the far, far, far extreme and going "Not only Free Social Security, but Free Housing and Health Care on top of it". Okaaaaaaayyyyyyy. Lets talk about the taxes needed to get that funded.
Hell, can we even start with the taxes we need to keep Social Security going?
And you can see the problem right after that. Bernie is fully unrealistic. Its the benefit of being on the flank, Bernie can promise the world because he doesn't actually have to worry about the details of his proposals.
I wouldn’t pass on the free education, if I were you
Lets put it this way.
Do you know how Elon Musk tricks his dumbass followers that they're all going to Mars? And its so ridiculous that no one actually seriously talks about the overall plan?
That's Bernie Sanders. No one seriously debates him because its so far out. Seeing a couple of followers get strung up in Bernie's moonshots is whatever, its going to happen. But nothing will come from it, and Bernie knows that. (Much like how Elon knows all the bullshit he spews is nothing either).
I get that its a popular way to get a niche following. But when we're talking about a real Presidential candidate, hopes and dreams aren't quite good enough. You'll need to talk about things that are ya know, at least close to political reality.
Or if Elon Musk is a bad example, consider how the Abortion debate played out. Back 10 years ago, it wasn't really a real discussion point. Today, it is, and now its suddenly a problem for Republicans because the implementation details of Abortion bans are really fucking stupid.
Same thing with Bernie. By the time Bernie is in office, its too late to realize that it was all bullshittery and the numbers simply don't line up.
On healthcare: removing the profit incentives of private health insurance drives down costs as well as frees up money to pay for universal coverage. It's not free Healthcare and has never been referred to as such unless people are debating in bad faith. He wrote the Medicare for All bill and just because you aren't aware of the details doesn't mean Sanders didn't have them.
On housing: again calling it free housing is a disingenuous bait. His housing policy had so many facets that even if only half his proposals were put into place, it would do wonders to improve the situation for millions of Americans. Federal funding for expanding Community Land Trusts (if you don't know what CLTs are you should look it up), combat gentrification/exclusionary zoning/segregation/speculation, expand the National Affordable Housing Trust Fund a fund that he was responsible for and fought for 15 years to become the first new federal affordable housing program funded in several decades, tenant protections like New York's right to counsel that was created in 2017, which saw their eviction rates drop five times faster than comparable areas. God damn man I could keep going but if I haven't made my point why waste the effort.
All of this could easily be paid by taxing the wealthy and reducing military spending. Would that be a problem for you?
The fuck do I hear Bernie saying "Medicare for All" ?
That's literally free Healthcare as his top-of-the-line discussion point for the last decade.
Where does Ukraine and Taiwan fit in that reduced military spending?
Ah right, Bernie is also isolationist. He probably doesn't give a shit. And even if we don't support Israel (I know how the left feels about that), we the USA need to continue to patrol the Red Sea vs not just the Houthis, but also Somali Pirates and other threats.
Military spending is going up, by any realistic discussion. Ukraine is only heating up, and Taiwan is likely getting hotter and hotter as China literally cuts off Filipino fingers and uses them to bully others in the Far East. If yall think peace will happen by reducing US Military spending at this juncture, you're losing my vote.
Bonus points: I'm also Filipino. So consider myself, and my family, very interested in hearing what the Democrats actually have to say about far-east stability / Taiwan / China's increasingly aggressive actions.
Military spending is going up, and not because anyone wants war. But because its necessary to keep the peace. USA has no control over China or Russia, we only have control over our own spending. And we must keep our spending up with them as they get more aggressive.
You're either trolling or too stubborn to evaluate new information that might change your position.
Medicare For All is not free healthcare, as in on the government's dime, it is entirely paid for by taxes. (Unless you actually object to free healthcare as in being able to go to the hospital when you need it for free, which is too ludicrous to be sincere.) The only reason it seems "free" is that the total operating cost of the system without the middleman of private insurance is significantly lower than our existing healthcare spending.
Most households would significantly increase their spending power throughout the year by eliminating healthcare premiums, deductibles, copays, and prescription costs in excess of $200 a year, and would only see a smaller increase at tax time. Those who would be paying more in total are very wealthy households who would be paying primarily at tax time, and frankly many of those households have not been paying their fair share of taxes already, so I find it hard to see that as a bad thing.
Yeah, no shit sherlock. Socialist / Communist countries like Cuba also pay for Health Care.
That doesn't change the fact that several important examples (Soviet Union, Cuba, and now most recently, Venezuela) have collapsed... or are currently collapsing under that load and those costs.
We know plenty of examples of countries who have done that. My question is why the fuck do you want to bring it to the USA?
https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/ Ah so you just keep your fingers in your ears. Got it.
Yeah, and Medicare / Social Security are already going bankrupt by 2040.
A gross expansion of those programs will make them go bankrupt even faster. You need to explain how to raise money for a "Medicare for All" program... and not just "Well fuck Taiwan / Phillipines / Far East / Ukraine / everyone else in the world".
We're going to have our hands full just keeping the programs available over the next few decades, and you want to expand them?
> picks vuvuzela as example
> conveniently overlooks hundreds of European and Asian "socialist" countries
> also overlooks merely redirecting 10% of defence budget to "socialism" will cure more of your cuntry's ills
> also overlooks the MIC as the biggest "socialist" welfare queen program ever
Kys
If we nominate Bernie it's not to win you over. It would win over leftists who otherwise wouldn't vote Democrat.
No offense but I don't actually believe that you are on the fence about whether or not you'll vote for Trump.
Dude: Kamala is seen as too far left that she's probably going to lose to Trump on a head-to-head matchup and you're talking Bernie still.
Bro: You are voting fascist.
Ideally not.
Hopefully you can offer me a good enough candidate where I don't feel like supporting the fascist. But if you go too far left, there's a point where fascism doesn't look as bad. No joke.
But the further left you go, the more points you lose out on me. I'm relatively religious (not the most compared to my family, but moreso than you guys I'm sure). I'm Republican, conservative. Etc. etc. There's threats to me and my way of life that the far left seriously have, and nothing yall say here are changing my opinion on that (or removing said threats from me).
I would have preferred if the Republicans fielded Niki Haley, but apparently that was too hard for them too. So now I'm seeing who the Democrats want to field. Ideally someone I can vote for, because trust me, I don't want to vote for Trump.
I promise you, there's a ton of other people like me in the center who are thinking the same thing. The name-of-the-game is figuring out a candidate to keep enough of us voting Democrat this fall (not necessarily me, but hopefully enough to gain and counteract the loss of my vote).
I'm here to discuss my opinion with all of you openly, because I know that Lemmy leans so far left that yall are fucking nuts and need my opinion to tie you back down to where reality is. Believe it or not, I'm here to help, and that's why we're having this discussion right now at all.
This isn't about just picking the most progressive candidate you can think of. Biden was the perfect choice for me and yall are now thinking of getting rid of him. Okay, so are you fine losing my vote? Or alternatively, do you think you can give me someone who is at least moderate enough (like Biden) to handle my concerns about the world? (IE: Ukraine and Taiwan in particular).
Alternatively, you can consider me to just be a nutcase and ignore me. But I don't think that's beneficial to you as a group either. Mostly because I know who the real nutcases are (ie: full on MAGA Trump supporters over there). I'm the one who have switched from Republican vote from 2008 / 2012 over to Democrat vote with the rise of Trump in 2016+, so I think I am actually an ideal case study for this discussion. That's all.
You've already given up the benefit of the doubt by admitting you'd vote fascist. I simply don't believe the honesty of your promises.
So you're going to kill this discussion with me just because you don't like my opinion? Cool. Lets see how that plays out this year. Its a fucking election year, get used to hearing people's opinions you don't like.
People will vote one way or the other on this issue. With any luck the Democrats put a good moderate on board who can keep my vote (as well as the Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Georgia voters). Biden vs Trump already was looking sketchy before you progressives literally destroyed your best chance at beating Trump.
And suddenly, you're blaming me for your own mistake... because I have the audacity to try to talk with you and share my opinion.
I'm sorry, that I'm not sorry.
In any case, Trump needs to be defeated, so I'm going to stay loud about my message. Yall progressives can't Occupy Wall Street into Republican wins again this year. This is too important for me to stay silent. You fucking dumbasses are destroying your own election chances as we speak, and its best if I pointed out this before its too late. (And yall have done it before, and you're doing it again).
If you really are going to switch candidates this late in the game, then for the love of god please put someone I can vote for (and other voters like me). That's all I'm asking. Don't lose the anti-Trump Republican vote over this self-defeating move you all seem intent upon inflicting upon yourselves. Please be at least a little bit politically expedient about the situation?
FYI: "Hey Fascist" is so passe it was in the Barbie last year. Its a bad argument now. Come up with a new one. You've been calling Republicans Fascists for 8 years now, the phrase has lost its effect. You'll need to try harder if you actually want to convince people or surprise us.
Being verbose won't un-say it...
For fucks sake man, I'm here to try to help you beat Trump
You're lucky I'm not easily discouraged. But your attitude about this is quite wrong.
Everyone else in this topic: you see the problem with your rhetoric or strategy yet? Let's point out what does and doesn't work here.
Kamala Harris is the sitting VP. She is in the conversation by default. If God exercises His ultimate recall vote on Biden tomorrow, then Harris inherits both the job and the ticket.
Exactly.
So making Kamala the top of the ticket does nothing but energize the racists to vote against her.
There is no point putting Kamala front and center. Just have Biden resign in January after serving as a political shield for Kamala.
There's no need to shield Harris, the racists are going to be triggered regardless, that's what those snowflakes do.
Except the racists did vote for Biden in 2020, despite Harris being the VP.
Arizona ain't exactly a happy-go-lucky civil rights state. Do you really have assurances that Arizona goes to Kamala if she's on the top of the ticket?
“President Biden’s family is urging him to stay in the race and keep fighting despite last week’s disastrous debate performance, even as some members of his clan privately expressed exasperation at how he was prepared for the event by his staff, people close to the situation said on Sunday,” the New York Times reports.
“Mr. Biden huddled with his wife, children and grandchildren at Camp David while he tried to figure out how to tamp down Democratic anxiety. While his relatives are acutely aware of how poorly he did against former President Donald J. Trump, they argued that he could still show the country that he is capable of serving for another four years.”
“Mr. Biden has also been soliciting ideas from advisers about how to proceed, and his staff has been discussing whether he should hold a news conference or sit for interviews to defend himself to change the narrative, but nothing has been decided yet.”
His performance was poor enough that I'd argue he not only should step down as the candidate, he should step down as President and let Harris run the show for the rest of the year.
Like, it's hard to make the call, but someone has to be the adult in the room and take Grandpa's keys before his next trip to Country Kitchen Buffet.
Everybody wants to act like Biden isn't driving down the interstate with our kids in the backseat.
It's not enough that's he's not intentionally trying to get in a crash, he needs to be a safe driver. And we can't just let Grandpa keep driving till he gets on the interstate via an exit ramp. We need to take his license before he kills anyone.