If it it were my instance, as in I run it and mod it, I would boot them. I can't moderate a language I don't understand.
If it's an instance I have a profile on but it's not mine to run or moderate, I don't care. I would mute it if there were a lot of posts.
Yeah, it would suck to find out there was a bunch of nazis building a community on your server, and you just didn't have any idea it was happening.
How do you define "normally"? You may wish to clarify as "civilly".
Me? I'm fine with it, but may block it if it's too active, as I likely wouldn't understand the posts.
Pretty much. The issue with foreign languages is that they’re impossible for an admin to actually administer. Because the admin has no idea if the posts are breaking rules. For all you know, a foreign community could be focused on sharing recipes, or could be focused on sharing Neo Nazi dogwhistles. And you’d have no way of distinguishing between the two without basically learning a new language.
The issue with foreign languages is that they’re impossible for an admin to actually administer.
Emphasis mine. That's bullshit. You got at least three resources at hand:
Machine translation.
Context.
Community help.
Note that you should be already doing #2 and #3 even in a monolingual instance or community; failure to do either means failure as a mod or admin.
For all you know, a foreign community could be focused on sharing recipes, or could be focused on sharing Neo Nazi dogwhistles. And you’d have no way of distinguishing between the two without basically learning a new language.
Besides the three resources that I mentioned, remember that dogwhistling Nazi are trying to promote an ideology. They're likely to beeline towards the majority language of the instance/comm, because they want to be heard. Posting a dogwhistle in a language that practically nobody speaks is pointless.
Putting more work on the admin running the server, that's a great solution for someone who doesn't have to do the extra work.
Putting more work on the admin running the server, that’s a great solution for someone who doesn’t have to do the extra work.
That's a fallacy known as "moving the goalposts", given that the original claim was about impossibility. I'll bite though.
Yes, there is an additional amount of overhead. However, I genuinely do not think that it is a lot, provided that the admins are smart. Automatic translation is built in browsers nowadays, and again, context.
I'll give you an example. Someone posts a picture of a cat doing something silly, then text in a language that you don't speak. Do you even need to bother translating it to know if it's OK? ...not really, right? You can simply wait until there's any sort of report against it.
And going through this amount of overhead yields a more diverse and active community. The whole point of building a community - be it an instance, a /c/, or even a non-Lemmy forum - is to service people with an online space to hang around.
Another thing that you guys are failing to consider is that the ability of the admins to recruit help scales up alongside the size of the community. Most content will be probably fine; rule-breaking content ends getting reported, unless the community itself is composed of nothing but troublemakers. The later is however blatantly obvious even if you don't speak the language.
Why I'm insisting on this point: people in Lemmy really, really love to babble about minorities and their empowerment. But when it comes to practical actions towards the empowerment of minorities, suddenly it's "too hard"?
This sort of "use this language else fuck off" approach might not be too problematic for something like a Spanish or a Mandarin speaker; sure, they'll eventually find some instance in their language. The picture however changes when you get someone who speaks Basque or Min or another minority language - because that instance won't exist.
I think that the function of translating posts and messages, as in Mastodon, would facilitate the moderation of foreign communities.
Right but it has to be automatic. It has to detect that the language isn't in whatever language I speak and then add a little link I can click to translate it. Like how YouTube comment works.
If I have to copy paste every single comment into Google translate it's just not worth the time and effort. Especially since they can almost certainly find an instance where the moderator does speak their language.
I'll reply to my own comment for transparency, to avoid editing the above after a bunch of users replied.
Nota bene: this is solely a taunt to provoke self-reflection.
How many of you are genuinely concerned about the feasibility of a multilingual instance, even in languages that the admins might not be speakers of? And how many of you are instead pissed, because the idea of multiple languages in the same instance would invade the online "Lebensraum" of your "Reichsprache"?
Or even, here's a third alternative: perhaps you're already unable to use context even in the languages that you speak, and you're unable to recruit community help even if this is essential in a monolingual/bubbled community, and so you can't see yourself relying on it. If that's the case, sorry to burst your bubble but you shouldn't be touching any position of power over what others may or may not say.
And as I mentioned in another comment, it's rather curious how people here love to babble about minorities and their empowerment, but when it comes to practical actions to support said empowerment, suddenly it's "too hard". Guess what, this "no foreign language in my online Reich!" approach hurts the most speakers of minority languages.
I think the point is that the mod of the instance doesn't want to be multilingual because of the unnecessary amount of overhead.
So your entire arguement doesn't make sense.
I think the point is that the mod of the instance doesn’t want to be multilingual because of the unnecessary amount of overhead.
The claim is that "they’re impossible for an admin to actually administer". Not that there's an "unnecessary amount of overhead".
So your entire arguement doesn’t make sense.
The argument makes sense in relation to what was said. It doesn't need to make sense in relation to your LLM-like hallucinations ("I think the point...").
Unfortunately I would just block the community from my feed because I would be unable to understand the content or interact with it. That being said there is no reason not to make community's in other languages so even more people can connect.
Sure...if by "normally", we mean that I will block or filter those communities as soon as I see them.
Not out of any malice or resentment. I just don't want to see communities where I won't be able to even read the titles, nor participate in comments.
Yup. No point in seeing posts you can't understand or interact with.
What's the normal reaction?
Also, there have been non-english speaking communities on my instance since before I joined.
If I'm just scrolling and notice it once or twice I do nothing, but if I see a lot of it I block it unless I speak said language.
I would love it if Lemmy had direct support for me to tell it what languages I speak and I'll never see communities in languages I don't speak.
Well it does but the problem is that most people don't actually fill out the language field.
And if you tell it to hide undefined then it hides like 99% of posts.
What needs to happen is that it needs to actually work out the language and then put the tag on
On the spare instance that I use, the language settings are simply not taken into account. I choose to display posts in my language, save, but the settings return to default and only english is displayed.
I'd be fine with it as long as I could understand the language for moderation purposes. As the admin, I'm ultimately responsible for what's hosted on my systems.
If it was a Spanish-speaking community, I could handle that and run the edge cases through a translator. Any other language, I'd ask them to post in English or relocate the community to an instance that is primarily in their language.
Again, my only reservations are because of needing to moderate and know what I'm hosting. As long as at least one of the admins is fluent enough in the language to moderate and deal with issues, I'd allow it.
You as an admin can set which languages you accept content from on your instance, FYI.
That's basically just a label. You can post in any language and leave the language field set to undefined or set it to the language of the server. It doesn't enforce anything.
Most people just leave it set to "undefined" which sets it to the home server's default language. The language labels in Lemmy are one of those "good idea, bad execution" kind of things.
I'd just block it if I can't understand the language.
I'm on a German instance so I guess that's part of it.
There's almost certainly non-english speaking communities on my instance since its one of the biggest and most popular. I wouldnt react at all
Define "normal" for that case.
For me, if it is in my native tongue I will see whether it is worth being followed, and any other language will be banned to avoid clutter.
I'm on a Netherlands instance so occasionally I see some Dutch content but I just skip over it. It doesn't bother me at all tbh.
I'm an admin of mine and I don't care, if you want a non-English community there, go ahead!
I don't care about what's happening on my instance, as long as they don't start blocking communities for dumb reasons like lemmy.world did. That's actually the reason why I left that instance. I don't care about foreign communities popping up on my instance though, I only care about the ones I subscribed to.
I know, but the fact that this happened is bad enough IMO. It's the reason I switched instances.
I would enjoy it and not be xenophobic, although I may block it eventually to change my information density back to mostly things I understand
If it's French I'll visit the post and comment something trolly about their food in English. Cos French.
If it's German I'll comment something about having the correct forms & papers to exist.
Polish I'll comment the only Polish I know: "Kurwa dobrze takk"
Any other language I'd ignore it.
I can't understand jack shit, I would block it.
I will act irrationally
what is the normal response? I speak and read English, exclusively. if I care about something, I have a translator in the browser but images dont get translated. enough "foreign spam" shows up and it's getting downvoted and then blocked.
Do people actually use the term 'foreign spam for this'? Don't they realise they're foreigners themselves?
on a majority english language site?
Language tags exist in post format, so unless it's marked improperly it wouldn't effect me any way; why not?
I like being exposed to languages that I do not know, so, is be happy to see it.
It doesn't affect me in the slightest.
"My instance" as "the instance I'm subscribed to": I might interact with it if it's in a language that I speak, otherwise I leave it alone.
"My instance" as "a hypothetical instance, that I would be the admin of": if I had my instance odds are that I'd be tweaking its rules to promote linguistic diversity on first place, so the appearance of speaking communities outside the default language (that would likely not be English in my instance, but either Portuguese or Italian) would show that I'm doing a good job.
Some people raise the concern of administration; but frankly? It looks for me like a strawman, not an actual problem. Trolls are attention seekers, so they'd likely post in the majority language; and other types of rule breaking scale with the size of the linguistic community in question, so when they become an actual concern you'll be able to recruit help anyway.
Trolls are attention seekers, but troublemakers tend to be focused on a particular action.
For example if somebody is stirring tensions in Sweden. They're going to post in Swedish even if it's not the most popular language on the instance because they don't care about anybody else. There's no benefit to me to risk it, so it's not exactly a strawman arguement, there's a very legitimate reason not to allow it.
Also they can go make their own instance if it's really that much of a problem, but I suspect they won't need to, I suspect they'll be able to find a instance that supports their language. So again where's the benefit in me allowing it?
Trolls are attention seekers, but troublemakers tend to be focused on a particular action.
For other types of troublemakers, check the rest of the very sentence that you're referring to.
Although... frankly, given your lack of basic reading comprehension, coupled with other people are raising the same points that you are, I'm not bothering with your comments further.
If it it were my instance, as in I run it and mod it, I would boot them. I can't moderate a language I don't understand.
If it's an instance I have a profile on but it's not mine to run or moderate, I don't care. I would mute it if there were a lot of posts.
Yeah, it would suck to find out there was a bunch of nazis building a community on your server, and you just didn't have any idea it was happening.
How do you define "normally"? You may wish to clarify as "civilly".
Me? I'm fine with it, but may block it if it's too active, as I likely wouldn't understand the posts.
Pretty much. The issue with foreign languages is that they’re impossible for an admin to actually administer. Because the admin has no idea if the posts are breaking rules. For all you know, a foreign community could be focused on sharing recipes, or could be focused on sharing Neo Nazi dogwhistles. And you’d have no way of distinguishing between the two without basically learning a new language.
Emphasis mine. That's bullshit. You got at least three resources at hand:
Note that you should be already doing #2 and #3 even in a monolingual instance or community; failure to do either means failure as a mod or admin.
Besides the three resources that I mentioned, remember that dogwhistling Nazi are trying to promote an ideology. They're likely to beeline towards the majority language of the instance/comm, because they want to be heard. Posting a dogwhistle in a language that practically nobody speaks is pointless.
Putting more work on the admin running the server, that's a great solution for someone who doesn't have to do the extra work.
That's a fallacy known as "moving the goalposts", given that the original claim was about impossibility. I'll bite though.
Yes, there is an additional amount of overhead. However, I genuinely do not think that it is a lot, provided that the admins are smart. Automatic translation is built in browsers nowadays, and again, context.
I'll give you an example. Someone posts a picture of a cat doing something silly, then text in a language that you don't speak. Do you even need to bother translating it to know if it's OK? ...not really, right? You can simply wait until there's any sort of report against it.
And going through this amount of overhead yields a more diverse and active community. The whole point of building a community - be it an instance, a /c/, or even a non-Lemmy forum - is to service people with an online space to hang around.
Another thing that you guys are failing to consider is that the ability of the admins to recruit help scales up alongside the size of the community. Most content will be probably fine; rule-breaking content ends getting reported, unless the community itself is composed of nothing but troublemakers. The later is however blatantly obvious even if you don't speak the language.
Why I'm insisting on this point: people in Lemmy really, really love to babble about minorities and their empowerment. But when it comes to practical actions towards the empowerment of minorities, suddenly it's "too hard"?
This sort of "use this language else fuck off" approach might not be too problematic for something like a Spanish or a Mandarin speaker; sure, they'll eventually find some instance in their language. The picture however changes when you get someone who speaks Basque or Min or another minority language - because that instance won't exist.
I think that the function of translating posts and messages, as in Mastodon, would facilitate the moderation of foreign communities.
Right but it has to be automatic. It has to detect that the language isn't in whatever language I speak and then add a little link I can click to translate it. Like how YouTube comment works.
If I have to copy paste every single comment into Google translate it's just not worth the time and effort. Especially since they can almost certainly find an instance where the moderator does speak their language.
I'll reply to my own comment for transparency, to avoid editing the above after a bunch of users replied.
Nota bene: this is solely a taunt to provoke self-reflection.
How many of you are genuinely concerned about the feasibility of a multilingual instance, even in languages that the admins might not be speakers of? And how many of you are instead pissed, because the idea of multiple languages in the same instance would invade the online "Lebensraum" of your "Reichsprache"?
Or even, here's a third alternative: perhaps you're already unable to use context even in the languages that you speak, and you're unable to recruit community help even if this is essential in a monolingual/bubbled community, and so you can't see yourself relying on it. If that's the case, sorry to burst your bubble but you shouldn't be touching any position of power over what others may or may not say.
And as I mentioned in another comment, it's rather curious how people here love to babble about minorities and their empowerment, but when it comes to practical actions to support said empowerment, suddenly it's "too hard". Guess what, this "no foreign language in my online Reich!" approach hurts the most speakers of minority languages.
I think the point is that the mod of the instance doesn't want to be multilingual because of the unnecessary amount of overhead.
So your entire arguement doesn't make sense.
The claim is that "they’re impossible for an admin to actually administer". Not that there's an "unnecessary amount of overhead".
The argument makes sense in relation to what was said. It doesn't need to make sense in relation to your LLM-like hallucinations ("I think the point...").
Unfortunately I would just block the community from my feed because I would be unable to understand the content or interact with it. That being said there is no reason not to make community's in other languages so even more people can connect.
Sure...if by "normally", we mean that I will block or filter those communities as soon as I see them.
Not out of any malice or resentment. I just don't want to see communities where I won't be able to even read the titles, nor participate in comments.
Yup. No point in seeing posts you can't understand or interact with.
What's the normal reaction?
Also, there have been non-english speaking communities on my instance since before I joined.
If I'm just scrolling and notice it once or twice I do nothing, but if I see a lot of it I block it unless I speak said language.
I would love it if Lemmy had direct support for me to tell it what languages I speak and I'll never see communities in languages I don't speak.
Well it does but the problem is that most people don't actually fill out the language field.
And if you tell it to hide undefined then it hides like 99% of posts.
What needs to happen is that it needs to actually work out the language and then put the tag on
On the spare instance that I use, the language settings are simply not taken into account. I choose to display posts in my language, save, but the settings return to default and only english is displayed.
I'd be fine with it as long as I could understand the language for moderation purposes. As the admin, I'm ultimately responsible for what's hosted on my systems.
If it was a Spanish-speaking community, I could handle that and run the edge cases through a translator. Any other language, I'd ask them to post in English or relocate the community to an instance that is primarily in their language.
Again, my only reservations are because of needing to moderate and know what I'm hosting. As long as at least one of the admins is fluent enough in the language to moderate and deal with issues, I'd allow it.
You as an admin can set which languages you accept content from on your instance, FYI.
That's basically just a label. You can post in any language and leave the language field set to undefined or set it to the language of the server. It doesn't enforce anything.
Most people just leave it set to "undefined" which sets it to the home server's default language. The language labels in Lemmy are one of those "good idea, bad execution" kind of things.
I'd just block it if I can't understand the language.
I'm on a German instance so I guess that's part of it.
There's almost certainly non-english speaking communities on my instance since its one of the biggest and most popular. I wouldnt react at all
Define "normal" for that case.
For me, if it is in my native tongue I will see whether it is worth being followed, and any other language will be banned to avoid clutter.
I'm on a Netherlands instance so occasionally I see some Dutch content but I just skip over it. It doesn't bother me at all tbh.
I'm an admin of mine and I don't care, if you want a non-English community there, go ahead!
I don't care about what's happening on my instance, as long as they don't start blocking communities for dumb reasons like lemmy.world did. That's actually the reason why I left that instance. I don't care about foreign communities popping up on my instance though, I only care about the ones I subscribed to.
Which communities were blocked on lemmy.world?
They blocked !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com, !piracy@lemmy.ml and !steamdeckpirates@lemmy.dbzer0.com. This post sums it up pretty well though: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/2146522.
Those were unblocked a few weeks ago, afaik
I know, but the fact that this happened is bad enough IMO. It's the reason I switched instances.
I would enjoy it and not be xenophobic, although I may block it eventually to change my information density back to mostly things I understand
If it's French I'll visit the post and comment something trolly about their food in English. Cos French.
If it's German I'll comment something about having the correct forms & papers to exist.
Polish I'll comment the only Polish I know: "Kurwa dobrze takk"
Any other language I'd ignore it.
I can't understand jack shit, I would block it.
I will act irrationally
what is the normal response? I speak and read English, exclusively. if I care about something, I have a translator in the browser but images dont get translated. enough "foreign spam" shows up and it's getting downvoted and then blocked.
Do people actually use the term 'foreign spam for this'? Don't they realise they're foreigners themselves?
on a majority english language site?
Language tags exist in post format, so unless it's marked improperly it wouldn't effect me any way; why not?
I like being exposed to languages that I do not know, so, is be happy to see it.
It doesn't affect me in the slightest.
"My instance" as "the instance I'm subscribed to": I might interact with it if it's in a language that I speak, otherwise I leave it alone.
"My instance" as "a hypothetical instance, that I would be the admin of": if I had my instance odds are that I'd be tweaking its rules to promote linguistic diversity on first place, so the appearance of speaking communities outside the default language (that would likely not be English in my instance, but either Portuguese or Italian) would show that I'm doing a good job.
Some people raise the concern of administration; but frankly? It looks for me like a strawman, not an actual problem. Trolls are attention seekers, so they'd likely post in the majority language; and other types of rule breaking scale with the size of the linguistic community in question, so when they become an actual concern you'll be able to recruit help anyway.
Trolls are attention seekers, but troublemakers tend to be focused on a particular action.
For example if somebody is stirring tensions in Sweden. They're going to post in Swedish even if it's not the most popular language on the instance because they don't care about anybody else. There's no benefit to me to risk it, so it's not exactly a strawman arguement, there's a very legitimate reason not to allow it.
Also they can go make their own instance if it's really that much of a problem, but I suspect they won't need to, I suspect they'll be able to find a instance that supports their language. So again where's the benefit in me allowing it?
For other types of troublemakers, check the rest of the very sentence that you're referring to.
Although... frankly, given your lack of basic reading comprehension, coupled with other people are raising the same points that you are, I'm not bothering with your comments further.