Are search engines, like Google, relevant at all anymore? Why use them? A relevant debate. It's not 2010 anymore.

Rob@lemdro.id to Technology@lemmy.world – 52 points –

Why would something like Google search possibly be irrelevant?

well..

a lot of these search engines use search engine Optimization, seo to rank sites. It's also not secret that they choose what shows up and what does not.

Things like that have been a thing for years, and since there wasn't a good alternative search engines remained relevant as we users tolerated their direction.

Now you have Lemmy, Mastodon, Sharkey, Firefish (if it's still a thing) connected to the Fediverse. On the Fediverse there is no such thing as looking up a website, but rather you look up actual specific content and get real results handed back to you. A lot of these Federated services are split and one person pays for hosting a smaller server, and the next another, slowly building up the bigger federated Fediverse.

On Lemmy you can just type in Windows 11, and no website to click on to, no bs, you get to hear about what's happening with WIndows 11 from different voices. Is the *Windows cool, a tragedy, is there that one guy that *disfavors it, or is in favor of WIndows 11?

It's all there and you as a user gets to decide for yourself if you like all the results you see, or some, or none of them and then move on with your day as it should be.

Thoughts? Opinions? Statements? Judge rulings?

54

Is this a joke, hyperbole? To build on your example, what if I wanted to find out “how to disable Windows 11 update prompts” into lemmy’s search. Do you think I would get the answer I’m looking for?

I’m not saying I don’t want to be rid of google and all they do. I would pay for 10 proton mail accounts a month if just one of googles data centers spontaneously burst into flames right now!

…

Well I’m willing to wait a while longer… I have not tried Kagi yet, but I will as soon as I get bored with Midjourney. Hopefully someday we can collectively slip the yoke, but I suspect googles results will get a lot worse first.

if more people used the Fediverse and inputed information overtime, it would get to that level and it would less likely just become another seo situation because it isn't centralized. Even right now, on Lemmy you can find more specific things for anything that is available then Google would give you even if if was available to them to give if it doesn't meet their seo standards.

I don't think you understand how difficult it is to search the amount of data that google sifts through before showing you results

How does the fact, that websites are written a certain way to please googles search engine, not apply to the fediverse? Even if all information was posted to or accessible through the fediverse, searching something will still use some kind of search engine. So people will also eventually start doing SEO, regardless if its Google's search engine or the fediverse's search engine that they are optimizing for.

Yes its problematic that google has a huge effect on what people see or don't see on the internet. But that wouldnt be any better for the fediverse. Its only better right now because you know what kind of information is on here, and you are getting a kind of pre-filtered selection of knowledge because of that. You wouldn't even start to search for washing machine repairs on here. You wouldn't try to look for local businesses here. If literally all of these things were here, the fediverse would need to start working on their search engine to stay fast enough to be usable because its just so much data, so many possible results. That would also result in some kind of arbitrary rule set that will make your post more likely to be shown as a result. And that will cause people to optimize their posts for the search engine.

I understand that Google has a lot of data to shift through, and that maybe the Fediverse probably can't do everything it does. When a user tries to search for certain things it's like Google goes out of it's way to hide it. I guess what I am trying to say is the Fediverse is best for finding discussion, and up to date topics, and opinions from more voices. When it comes to local stuff, I would probably use Google maps or something like that just so I can say I don't need a search engine for that, but that's just me when it comes to local searches.

If one server were to get too big and do ads and all that, guess what, it's not like with Youtube for example where that's your only option you can just switch your instance and you won't be censored you just won't show up on that corrupted instance. The fact that the Fediverse is decentralized and federated absolutely will prevent this from being as bad as it was with the og old internet.

The reason Facebook took over was essentially the fact that it was it's own platform, and you couldn't communicate with your friends from that old forum site.

When one or 5 servers get to a certain size I would assume some instance would bloc some of the largest instances, but would still be usable as other servers it could still federate with. The Fediverse designed to combat this, while the old internet, really had no plans to combat this. Sure it thought well for people it just wasn't built to give people enough power to avoid bigger instances and still have success and activity.

And how exactly do you think google maps finds the results? If you think the search on google maps does not use a search engine, you have a lot to learn before having this discussion. Google maps is pretty much just a different interface for showing you results from the same, or at least extremely similar search engine as regular google uses

I agree its better to have several different options to pick from, monopolies are never a good thing. But that just means we don't want google to have a monopoly. It does not mean that we want search engines to be gone.

You are mixing things up that have nothing to do with each other. How is the fact that Facebook does not interact with old forums an argument for not having search engine services like google, duvkduckgo or bing? The federation in the fediverse definitely is nice and I hope it becomes the standard, but I really don't see how that would mean that we don't need search engine services anymore.

I really mean, not getting rid of search engine services as they were originally intended to be used, but ultimately rather getting rid of as they are used against smaller sites today and preferring select sites.

Idk if Maps uses the same search engine as Google, if not while I agree maps uses a search engine, to search the info stored on it or that the user searches for, mostly what's stored on maps, I think is stored on one server dedicated to maps or perhaps multiple servers being a Google. It's not like it's picking sites and services to get it from, it's data they collected for sure but it's all stored on that service as I understand it.

The Facebook bit was really to address the potential take over of the Fediverse which since it's built to litterally protect users from just that, sure it won't help everyone who is ignorant to how the Fediverse works, but if you do know how it works you can still free yourself and jump to another instance using the exact same familiar interface on whatever platform you are using on the fediverse, like Mastodon. Also newer platforms on the Fediverse will also show up with their own servers seperated from Mastodon or Lemmy so things will be refreshioned again and again when new Platforms arrive. Most of them being open source also means no one can really buy out Mastodon or Lemmy just like that it just doesn't work like that.

Okay fair enough, I'm just pointing out that your original claim that search engines are or should be irrelevant nowadays isn't really true.

My point about maps just was that there still is a search engine under the hood, so only using maps and not google does not enable you to say that you don't use search engines.

I agree about all that stuff you say about the fediverse but that has literally nothing to do with search engines.

I've heard kids these days search tiktok instead of Google.

Kids are fucking stupid

I was driving my brother in law and he was trying to tell me some news he heard but couldn't get the specifics so he spent ten minutes searching tiktok for it. I couldn't believe it

I've heard that's true for restaurants and stuff like that, such seemed pretty baffling to me considering Google Maps (and others) exists.

I mean there are cool channels that showcase the food instead of ratings. You can't fake the restaurant AND their food so quickly
Example (Also available on YT): https://www.tiktok.com/@japaneat
The only thing it would need to be a true superpower is to limit an area and then show all restaurants displaying their food.
BUT: This will quickly by gamed as well as nothijg would stop the owner of just creating instagramable dishes that taste just meh but paying the creator to say otherwise.

What kind of fediverse search are you talking about? Provide a link. That would do much, much more than any explanations or testimonials possibly could.

Like on Mastodon, I can search for information on Google, Duckduckgo and you'l see all the latest human input on these topics that's available. Whether you search for hashtags or for posts specifically.

Or on Lemmy, you can search for posts or literally entire communities dedicated to what you are looking for.

When I say the Fediverse, I'm talking about as a whole, when you are searching for posts, and the like. The Fediverse will generally strive to actually show you everything that's available. It's a step from forward from what the modern search engine provides it's users.

Do search engines have some advantages, sure, but are they hindered severely by seo, also yes. To the point that any advantages a Google search could have just isn't worth it.

I don’t think you understand what SEO is. That’s one of the problems here.

Search engines like google aggregate data from multiple sites. I may want to download a datasheet for an electronic component, find an answer to a technical question, find a language learning course site, or look for museums in my area.

Usually I make specific searches with very specific conditions, so I tend to get few and relevant results. I think search engines have their place.

Good point. While Search Engines do have their place and uses. My issue isn't with the idea of the search engine itself but with seo deciding what resualts show up or will never show up regardless of the quality of the source. A lot of it goes against the open internet.

Do you know what SEO stands for? It's not SEO that is ranking results. SEO is the consequence of ranking results by relevance and quality.

What's your alternative? Give supposedly relevant results randomly? That'd be even worse.

My alternative is to deliver what people are actually saying on the search engine based off of what a user searches. Not just a handful of special outlets that know they are hand picked and take advantage of their position.

You can take a lot of control by using search commands. Here is a list of commands for Google, for example: https://www.lifewire.com/advanced-google-search-3482174

By using commands like these you can narrow down your searches to the point that the impact of SEO is small. You give a much greater weight to the conditions that you have chosen.

It can be a bit of work to write a good search query, but the database that search engines search through is massive, so it makes sense that it would take some work to do this right.

You must not have hard problems to solve if fediverse content is able to replace a search engine.

Search engines are good for what you might call "keyword searches" across websites. I'd say SEO spam has degraded quality of hits and made search results less reliable than even 5 years ago. There's a lot more chaff to winnow now in the main search services. You sorta need to discriminate on hits, and dig a bit deeper into the results to find that new nugget you didn't already see 3 or 4 times already in previous searches with similar, but different parameters.

I find the LLM AIs to be slightly better at turning up obscure info these days. The conversation sets some persistent context that's helpful when you need to dial in on obscure stiff like a driver issue, tuning problem or weird product spec. You still need to carefully vet your results, but the AIs understand technical jargon pretty well, and generally return some solid analysis for leas common scenarios.

They're also good for pick-and-shovel work in odd tech areas, but you really need to be careful with the results because they're confidently wrong in speculative conversation only slightly more often than they're confidently right.

That's just my opinion, but it's how I do search these days: use an AI to refine keywords, then use DDG or Google to find familiar sites with corollary content.

Trash in/trash out. Small communities of experts can create quality content, but after becoming relevant enough astroturfing begins.

Perhaps we use search engines for different purposes... 🤔

I don't use Google, but I definitely use my preferred search engine numerous times daily.

Maybe, care to elaborate your purposes.

Typically I might search for something specific like an answer to a question, and maybe or maybe not it shows up in a Google search. Or I might just search for a specific website which 9 times out of 10 it will show up.

The main problem I see with both Google and Duckduckgo is, Sometimes if I just search for information, some sites will show up and others just won't. So because of this you may be missing out on helpful and relevant information that just isn't seo friendly enough.

I'm not sure how abandoning search engines and only using specific Websites is supposed to help with this

By using say Mastodon, it is federated with other instances that focus on certian things and people posts about said things. You can search from Mastodon posts and even beyond Mastodon to other platforms that are using using Activity pub. and vice versa.

Because of this you will have more independent control rather than one company controlling the flow of everything. With Google everything goes by Google. With Duckduckgo everything goes by Bing and Duckduckgo. With Mastodon, whatever you see goes by various Mastodon server criteria.

But you’re still limited to the opinions of people who post on Lemmy, which, as someone who occasionally posts on Lemmy, is not a shining beacon of quality.

Even if I just went by what I get on the first page of a Google search, I’d expect I’d find what I need much faster using Google than I would using Lemmy based purely on the volume of info Google has access to. And that’s not even taking into account things like Google’s ability to search within other sites.

Unless Lemmy has gotten like 100 billions times better in the last week, this isn’t even a fair comparison.

Edit: lol, just realised you’re the same guy from the Nvidia thread.

Just wait for the bots. Also, search engines have been playing cat and mouse with SEO for a while. I don’t know why it’s gotten so bad lately.

Unlike on Google search, if you see a bot on Lemmy, or Mastodon, you can just block the bot and never see them again. Follow accounts/communities you trust to be reliable for finding info on various topics to eliminate the chances of running into the bots (since you more likely will be looking at your following feed.)

I wish seo would make the web more lively again but I just see them as a lost cause, and the Fediverse as the better future.

I've been blocking bots for 6 months now, it's a neverending stream of new garbage.

That's a price to pay to have a free internet.

If bots are an issue, and I believe it can be sometimes, you could try suggesting to Lemmy developers to invest into bot protection for the platform. Also, the instance maintainers themselves.

So one bot watches and another posts, possibly from an established account farmed with real human labor.

Fvo "a while" that are about 25 years. The pressure has been going up all the time as more and more companies and spammers try to shoehorn themselves into irrelevant searches.

This is only true if you need news or opinions. You can't really search Lemmy for technical questions or search for a specific site which are my main usages of a search engine.

You are correct. I don't mean to really replace the search engine in it's entirety, i'm really just talking about the modern search engine and how tragic seo is for smaller sites and variety.

Searx would be an example of a good search engine, or metager possibly and others like those. So that's really where I am coming from.

Search engines don’t use search engine optimization. Search engine optimization is what people do to get their site to the top of a search engines results.

I thought this post was going to be about ChatGPT. Instead it’s about how fediverse search is a replacement for the entire internet, which is utter nonsense.

Here is some info about the decline of truth on google search.
https://bbbhltz.codeberg.page/blog/2024/02/seoshenanigans/

I'm not as worried about the decline of truth, but rather the decline of the open web. Google is favoring it's search engine for a few. Sites such as Quara, Reddit, cnn always get top resualts. It's never anyone else unless specifically searched for. If you don't specifically search for them others never get heard on Google search.

Google is free, Im searching recipies, websites of companies I might invest in, the law in general and pop-culture crap 90% of the time

Seems like a waste of water and energy to ask a highpowered LLM about it. I heard each query on GPT uses 12L of fresh water, seems wastefull when I could just use a basic google

Edit: it is approx .5L of water for 5 to 50 prompts, thanks google!

I only find search engines somewhat irrelevant because I'm almost never searching for, like, a website. I'm searching for information or software that's compiled on 1 of 5 websites and I can usually use the search function on those specific sites.

Used to use search engines to find new websites. Back when Google was new and it was easier to find cool stuff with keywords rather than by adding .com to random words in the URL bar.

That is what we are missing. The Fediverse makes searching by keyword so simply easy, with it being decentralized, this feature will be preserved as long that people developing the Mastodon's and the Lemmy's keep supporting it. If they don't you won't ever actually lose that feature you would likely have to join another platform like Firefish, or Sharkey and search the Fediverse that way if something like this were to happen. This is why I still stand with the Fediverse being better for the longer term than Google as a search engine.

I'm not going to give the fediverse my address and ask it where the closest dentist/clinic/restaurant is. Also, even if I did, 見る人がほとんどわからないかも。

Use Google maps, or something like that. You wouldn't need a search engine for that or even the Fediverse.

You think going on google maps to search for restaurants isn't using a search engine?

The fuck

This is a relative hot take at this moment but as the search results get worse and the fediverse grows it might become true. Time will tell.

One thing Search engines are good for looking for stores like Aldi's, or Best buy and seeing the type of stuff they sell before you shop there. But if you're looking for anything opinionated, or from real people from *all backgrounds seach engines are becoming less and less of that as they use to be back in the 2008's-2013's

100% true, the quality of search results has plummeted. I’ve read lots of articles that propose a myriad of excuses, but at the end of the day Google could fix it if they wanted to. Google search has the quality of free popcorn. 

The difference is I can enjoy some popcorn, seo takes the enjoyment out of most of everything if not everything.

Sure, there’s some good free popcorn out there. It’s just not that common. It wasn’t a great analogy, but I’m sticking with it ;-)