Do you consider the term "rice" or "ricer" to be racist?

const_void@lemmy.ml to Unixporn@lemmy.ml – 34 points –

The Wikipedia definition seems to indicate it has origins as a racist term and I've never understood why unix users have adopted this terms instead of something benign like "themes" or "theming" which I remember being in use long before I ever heard "rice". So what gives? Why use "rice" instead of "theme"?

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The term comes from car modifications, when people would modify Japanese cars. Folks called them "rice burners" and it evolves from there.

I have never heard this in the Linux community, though, so it might just be a you thing

I'm not a part of the demographic who would experience racism around this. So, I can't comment there.

I am a white hipster though. So, I usually call my window manager customizations "artisanally hand crafted".

artisanally crafted operating systems lmaooo

dude, you need a break from the internet

Why do you say that?

Here what you did:

  • take a word used within a community to refer to personalised desktop environments;
  • strip its context;
  • add a completely different context;
  • ask if using that word, with a completely different context, is racist;

Which is weird af

Master branch is racist!!!

People who don't have anything better to do find anything to be offended by.

Hey nice strawman.

Referring to modifications as Rice or Riced is actually racist. Master branch doesn't have an origin in racism.

We used to refer to hard drives in hierarchy as being either Master or Slave and we've moved away from that terminology because it was offensive.

It's not that hard to understand or have some empathy, unless you're an idiot who can't recognize your own privilege.

Wrong.

The word wasn't coined by the Linux community. It was taken from the automotive community where it was used as a derogatory term to refer to car modifications.

You can't pretend it doesn't have shitty origins just because you aren't familiar with the source.

derogatory 😂

@const_void nobody cares. If you enter the Linux customization community, see the word "ricer" or "rice", and get offended, you probably need a break from the internet.

You can just say that you don't care. You don't need to frame your opinion as belonging to hundreds of people, none of whom asked you to.

And of course people in the community don't care. If they did, they wouldn't have joined the community.

First time I'm hearing of this, how would this possibly be racist?

Decades ago it (in my experience) originated from the use of usually gaudy non-performance enhancements to Japanese or other foreign cars (mostly originally Hondas IIRC) to make them look fast or faster without actually doing anything to make them fast. (gigantic rear spoilers, loud exhaust, neon underlights, etc)

In a pretty short time it bled into doing the same to any slow car (I think it was mostly Hondas to start) because so many people were doing it to Honda Civics at the time, then I think (again this is just in my own usage at the time) into usually gaudy non-performance enhancements to ANY car.

There's probably also some connection to "rice burners" which I think predates the word, which I first heard applied to motorcycles, again Japanese brands like Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, and then later sometimes to cars from similar brands.

The racism in "ricing" comes from the idea that since the original targets of the term tended to be Japanese or other asian cars (Kia, hyundai) and with the perception that rice is closely associated with those cultures -- "ricing out" your car essentially meant "covering it with gaudy fripperies like those Japanese cars."

I understand why some folks think it's racist, and I understand why some folks don't, but I don't use the term anymore because I decided it wasn't that hard to use another word, and just because I don't think it's hurtful that doesn't mean it isn't to someone.

@tables

This is a really well thought out post, cheers. I think your choice is fair in the end, but I also think that it becomes impossible to do this for every word that people decide is racist or offensive to someone.

Especially because it all comes from american internet culture and it's hard for non americans to keep track. By this point, every few days some word or internet term or even the name of something in everyday life that I thought was perfectly normal is suddenly deemed immoral by american users. English is a secondary language to me, a lot of my knowledge of it comes from internet forums and such which only makes it even harder because I don't have a deep knowledge of the roots of the language, especially when it comes to slang or "internet terms" I mostly copy what I see. And while my stance used to be the same as yours, that I could just avoid using that word and it wasn't a big deal, I feel like at some point I started losing track of the list of words and I just gave up.

I remember there being a big fuss around a similar situation in home gardening subreddits because the most common worldwide name of some flower offended someone in the States, and a similar situation in baking communities, and it's just... I give up. There's no winning this fight. Someone is bound to be offended by something eventually. If people are refusing to look at context and intent, too bad I guess.

Also, on a side note, I noticed you tagged me while scrolling through the thread, but I didn't get a notification or anything, I don't know if tagged users are supposed to be notified? Just as an FYI as you might've expected that I would get a notification.

I remember there being a big fuss around a similar situation in home gardening subreddits because the most common worldwide name of some flower offended someone in the States, and a similar situation in baking communities, and it’s just… I give up.

rapeseed oil has entered the chat.

This is the only context I've heard the term. People use it for theming desktop apps now?

This is a really well thought out post, cheers. I think your choice is fair in the end, but I also think that it becomes impossible to do this for every word that people decide is racist or offensive to someone.

Especially because it all comes from american internet culture and it's hard for non americans to keep track. By this point, every few days some word or internet term or even the name of something in everyday life that I thought was perfectly normal is suddenly deemed immoral by american users. English is a secondary language to me, a lot of my knowledge of it comes from internet forums and such which only makes it even harder because I don't have a deep knowledge of the roots of the language, especially when it comes to slang or "internet terms" I mostly copy what I see. And while my stance used to be the same as yours, that I could just avoid using that word and it wasn't a big deal, I feel like at some point I started losing track of the list of words and I just gave up.

I remember there being a big fuss around a similar situation in home gardening subreddits because the most common worldwide name of some flower offended someone in the States, and a similar situation in baking communities, and it's just... I give up. There's no winning this fight. Someone is bound to be offended by something eventually. If people are refusing to look at context and intent, too bad I guess.

Also, on a side note, I noticed you tagged me while scrolling through the thread, but I didn't get a notification or anything, I don't know if tagged users are supposed to be notified? Just as an FYI as you might've expected that I would get a notification.

My understanding of the term (from an asian american perspective I guess) is that it at most has a connection to race through the origins of ricing, and since the origins and current usage has never seemed derogatory and is simply about the Asian origins of automotive ricing I don't think it's racist at all. I see it as no different to any other term that reflects the origins of something that is connected to a specific ethnicity, especially when the term isn't derogatory and isn't used to otherize (which is how I consider model-minority stereotypes to be racist despite not being "negative").

Yes, it is a derogatory term from car modification. Taking away the context doesn't make it any less racist.

Taking away the context doesn’t make it any less racist.

How doesn't it? I would argue most people who use the term 'rice' aren't even aware of its origins.

Pink cars with massive spoilers and 200db exhausts shouldn't feel threatened with arrests every time they forget to signal, they should have the same opportunity to use the roads everyone uses withouth getting honked by honda civics

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You should stop focusing on vocabulary and get your mind on intent, this is getting stupid.

Why is it stupid to discuss whether the language we use could be harming people? If you're not interested in joining that discussion productively, you could simply scroll on.

The language used is not going to harm people. The intent is, which was my point.

Read -> Parse the meaning -> React accordingly. Is a correct way to communicate.
Read -> React to trigger word -> Disregard meaning Is not. It's just conditioned response.

If you do not think disagreement is a productive contribution, maybe you're not looking for a discussion.

Let me get this straight:

In the following scenario, the app developer is in the right?

  • App dev: Here's my new app! It's called F----T, for FAntastic Gnome Game On Terminal.
  • Me: Hey, that word is offensive to me and others like me, it's a word we hear before being beaten, bullied, killed, or discriminated against. Do you think you could change it?
  • App dev: No. My intent was not to discriminate. You're being unreasonable.
  • Me: The fact that you are unwilling to even entertain changing the app name from a well known slur used against people like me makes me feel completely unwelcome.
  • App dev: Sounds like your problem, sticks and stones.

Difference being that rice is not an insult per se, which means that using the term rice isn’t inherently racist.

To my (very obvious) thesis: “Uee Mario, pizza mare mandolino!” Isn’t racist, each of those words are innocent and have no negative meaning, yet it is racist as fuck

Checkmate to whatever you were trying to prove

I was responding to the argument in the previous comment, not making a point about the term "rice."

Downvotes are cute, rebuttals are better. Do you just not like what I have to say, or can you teach me something? I'm all ears.

This is the same as people not using Gimp because they never understood what really means and feel it's derogatory. Sometimes a word is just that, a word, and there's no profit from overthinking it. But in the same regard you can use the term "theme" if it makes you happier.

There are plenty of articles and comments out there from disabled people recounting how that word has been weaponized against them. When people are telling us this, it seems pretty tasteless to continue using it.

I have no idea why I get downvoted every time I say this. If there are a large number of people out there saying 'I was called this name due to my disability, it makes me feel like shit, and the fact that a popular FOSS project continues to use it despite being told this time and time again makes me feel that the FOSS community sees me as less than human' how is it remotely complicated to have the common courtesy to apologize, pick a better name, and carry on? This is not hard, it costs nothing, and it's just basic human respect.

Following that logic we should rename lots of things, as any word can be use in a despicable way. I get your point. But again. It's just the name of an app.

Following that logic we should rename lots of things, as any word can be use in a despicable way.

Any word CAN be, but in this case you have a group of people telling you it IS hurtful to them. Those aren't the same thing.

The word has been considered a serious slur for years. If, by chance, you wind up naming your project with a tier-1 slur, yes, you should absolutely rename it.

Gimp is one of the few FOSS projects with some notoriety outside of tech circles. It, VLC and Linux are possibly the only names I could expect some random person to have heard of. Changing its name would probably torpedo years of work to become seen as a reliable piece of software and send it back to the realm of "software that only people who watch the code repository know about".

And the whole changing the name to avoid offending someone is a losing battle in the first place. According to this thread, "rice" is potentially racist. I had no idea anyone could find "Gimp" offensive, but apparently they can. By this point, it's part of american internet culture to be offended and no word is safe from americans turning it into a slur, dog-whistle, etc etc and advocating that everyone else in the world should stop using it.

The fact that g--p is a slur is not a new thing. It's the equivalent of f----t or r----d for a large number of disabled people, and has been for years. The fact that you did not know this doesn't make it any less true.

Do you honestly believe a name change would vault the project into obscurity? Seems like a quick press release would do it.

When I hear gimp outside of the context of the software, I think of gimp suits. In my area I've never heard gimp used as a slur for disabled people.

I get that there's regional slang and what not, but if every word that offended anyone anywhere was banned, we would have to limit our words to the point of barely being able to communicate.

In my area, depending who you are, a silly term as "goof" is offensive. I almost got beat up for calling a guy one as a joke. Should I petition Disney to rename Goofy?

if every word that offended anyone anywhere was banned...

I'm hearing this point a lot, but it just makes clear that people aren't reading or understanding my other remarks. This isn't a random word that someone decided was offensive. This is a slur that is well known to large number of disabled people. They have been telling us this for some time. You haven't heard it used that way? That's great, but that also doesn't mean that it isn't. You know who does know what slurs are used against them? The people who are targeted by them. I'll bet there are plenty of slurs you haven't heard of that are, in fact, still slurs regardless.

Honestly, I find the name Nathan really offensive.

Are you going to do something about it?

Have you got any real arguments for me?

It's an acronym, just that. We can argue is a misfortune one but that's it.

Yea, it's an acronym that spells out a slur. It should be changed.

Being a non-american, I never really liked the term "rice" because it's not an intuitive term to convey modifying or customizing a system. But I have used it because that's what the subreddit used to call it. I never thought it might be racist as I never saw anyone use the term in a racist manner - I can't even understand how it could be racist - outside of this community, rice is just a word for something I eat for most of my meals. But again, I'm not american, so I might be lacking some cultural context - the whole culture war thing kind of escapes me and I'm not up to date on the list of forbidden words.

So, is this like a joke post making fun of what was posted in the pcmr community? I'm legitimately asking, I can't tell if this is a troll or not.

I don't know but it seems like it's a 'nix thing.

I was in the Windows customization scene for years and never heard the term "ricing" until I discovered customization on Linux.

No it's from car enthusiasts. Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements

I'm surprised to see it suddenly in wide use here, honestly. I've been 'in the linux community' for 25 years or so and only started seeing people use it in this context in the last month. Jarring isn't the right word but it seems sudden to me knowing the connotations from the mid-to-late 90s car culture.

It's from 4chan /g/, it's been in use for at least a decade there, probably longer

That is the absolute least-surprising explanation.

Never heard either, but ricer would clearly be racist as there’s no general contemporary reason for the word.

At first I assumed ricer referred to a kitchen tool that made vegetables into the shape and size of rice

i've never seen it used in a pejorative way, and the usage and meaning of the word in collectif consciousness is "theming". So even if it was used in a bad way, it's not relevent anymore, since the meaning have changed.

I don't think it is racist. I feel like we have gone a few steps too far trying to associate everything with race. By the way, "hey here's my theme I just did for my fresh Arch installation" just doesn't have the same ring to it. About that origins as a racist term thing, like it or not, it's now the term for the seeds of Oryza sativa, and there isn't some alternative way of referring to rice. That means it is now widely accepted as a non-racist term.

I would if every Korean in my town didn't use the term for any Japanese car or motorcycle.

Wait, that's not racist, but it is nationalist. I think. I've never actually asked them if they use the term for other Asian brands.

are you suggesting koreans can't be racist against the japanese because they're both asian?

I only know the term form car tuning. And specifically used for tricked out Japanese cars. The term picked up steam after Need for Speed - Tokyo drift.

Besides that it’s also used for Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements. Only cosmetics and no performance, the opposite of a sleeper car. In this case it’s a bad thing. And if a word is used in a bad way and has a possible race connection in can be considered racist. If someone feels offended because an it’s race related, just assume it’s racist.

I thought it had to do with the fact that most themes on Linux consist of a large collection of dotfiles, dots, rice. But that might just be me

No, it originally was a derogatory term for people who modify japanese cars. Then it began to apply to shoddy or garish modifications to any car. Then people started using it to mean modifying something to their own tastes.

It's uses in the theming space is already ironical since it's supposed to be a pejorative term for cars, it's use is way beyond it's origins now, and it's root in racism is flimsy at best, if one day goth groups start hanging out in gyms to bother people doing sports, calling them gym crows won't be a racist statement despite what the wiki will say about it.

I don't think it's racist. I just don't like it. Themes or theming works for me. It just makes me think of the kids who install kali and describe themselves as haxors.

I personally don't see it as racist in the context it's used (to me, context and how something is used is everything), then again, when I first heard the term a few years back, it was in the context of an acronym: Racing Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements. Nothing racist about that, I mean...I see several cars owners, racing or otherwise, tricking their rides up with spoilers or annoying loud exhausts all the time. All ethnicities, not just strictly asian. It might have come from a racist thing*, and if it did, that doesn't mean that that's what has to define it for all time.

I also agree with tables; you can't exactly choose a "nicer" alternative for something everytime a couple of people get offended by a word. It's just not feasible, IMO. IDK, I was raised with the mindset of: There's going to be people in life that are going to take offense to something you do or say even if you didn't mean to offend in the slightest.

*it could have, but I'm not entirely sure personally. I checked out the wiki article you linked, and find it odd that when originally looked up the term RICE on wikipedia, there was no racist conotations at all (and i know this because i often used to refer to that article when i explained what the acronym meant to others), or if there were, it was a footnote, but now it's front and center. Not saying you're wrong and this is some revisionist piece at all, just noticing that, is all. Like I said, this very well could be the original meaning.

I'm a typical white guy, so my opinion on this doesn't really matter.

But for what its worth, I've lived in Japan, a and I personally never met any English-speaking Japanese people who were offended by the term "rice burner," or "ricing." For the most part they don't seem to care about their tech being associated with rice.

Standard disclaimer: my observation may not apply to everyone in that group.

Nah, seems to be a different meaning, and I think it probably has to do with dot files as other comments have mentioned. Also rice burner and other terms seems to have been used directly in conjunction with Asians, to insult products made by them or the people themselves. As Unix is not really a Asian product so to speak, I doubt they're related too much, and if so only tangentially.

I've been living with this term for a decade now and this is literally the first time I hear someone gets offended from that word.

Are you const_void asian by yourself?

Just because no one you know gets offended doesn't mean it's not racist.

Lol. But if it was the case, I bet I've seen this word offending someone or being racist would've occured at least once during the decade?

Linux users still brigs up wifi and SystemD regurarly so if there were a room for this particular word being offensive I'm 100% sure it would be discussed at least twice during a decade.

I could accept op being right if this was discussed more than zero times before, even though I don't get how and why people gets offended by any word. Even less I get why on earth anybody would get offended for some 3rd person and I accept it just being me who don't gets it.

Again, just because no one in the room you were talking in thought it was offensive doesnt mean it's not outside of that room.

After all, you're here, in a different room with new people and the new people are offering you new perspectives. One of those new perspectives is that that is a racist term.

Lol. Start your personal fight and change it. Do some good and leave your name in the history by becoming a new jesus.

Are you asian or can you name just 1 asian who is offended from this term? Until that milestone I'm all laugh.

It's absolutely racist. Calling a car a "rice burner" is also racist as hell.