Hamas had not planned to attack music festival, Israeli report says
stopthatgirl7@kbin.social to 
aljazeera.com
First police investigation of Supernova festival also found Israeli forces responsible for some deaths.
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Doesn't change the fact they murdered people deliberately.
Not saying they did or didn't, but we're still in fog of war territory. We know the 1200 include military personnel (who are pretty much fair game) and that there are many civilians who died to reckless IDF fire. Again, not saying they didn't, but that the whole thing needs more investigation.
I agree that an investigation is needed but Israel has been blowing up its credibility with every lie it tells and every civilian it has murdered. Who’s going to investigate and how are they going to be able to gather evidence?
I'm certain a lot of people who have investigated have been killed for doing so. 45 journalists lost in this 2 months of war.
Yeah, it's real weird there's still no breakdown of IDF casualties and civilians.
Those civilians would not have died if Hamas had not attacked civilian areas. The whole reason there were any casualties is because Hamas attacked.
So if someone robs a shop, the police arrives and starts shooting killing several bystanders means the robber is now charged with murder and the police involvement isn't scrutinized.
Is that really the argument you are trying to make here?
That is the argument they are making, yes. What you described is pretty much “felony murder doctrine,” blaming any death that occurs during the commission of a crime on the perpetrators. Felony murder charges have been used very effectively to justify police brutality and excessive force. If a cop kneels on your neck until you die but you were committing a crime, you murdered yourself, they say.
... That is generally how it works where I live, yes.
Police causalities caused by actions intended to stop a felony are charged to the felon and they are held responsible.
Not that I fully agree with the unscrutinized part but your analogy isn't the best.
No I am saying Hamas committed an atrocity. There is no escaping that. Throwing in spurious figures regarding Israeli competence does not alleviate that.
There are many wrong in this. It is hard to find any rights at all from any side. Ignoring all the wrongs that have been committed by both sides will not solve the issue. Parties need to recognise that shit is being, and has been done. It should not be buried with BS in a cheap effort to dilute responsibility.
Basically both of you think the other one is trying to shift blame, when in actuality you're trying to make sure both are blamed.
Sums up a lot of arguments over this war.
Precisely, there is no innocent party in this conflict.
And yet, by your very own bullshit IDF soldiers shooting civilians are indeed innocent because it's all Hama's fault.
"there is not innocent party in this conflict" is not some solve-all catchphrase to get rid of criticism. It needs to actually be applied and those soldiers need to scrutinized for what happened there.
IDF should be held to account also. I never once made excuses for the crimes of others. You want a cheap get out to deflect blame. I don't accept that.
No, I want Isreal's government and military to account for the things they did and not get a free pass because "BuT hAMaS".
You however have fully eaten up the propaganda of how everyone questioning Israel is somehow magically supporting Hamas and trying to deflect from their terrorist acts. And only when you realize that your bullshit claims like
don't fly, you pay lip service to allegedly being critical of both sides, only to then instantly continuing to blame Hamas for Israel killing people.
So you want Israel to investigate errors of judgement that were made under duress. Without a doubt where errors are made then countries need to learn from them. Just remember those errors were caused by the actions of Hamas.
And, where did I say Israel supported Hamas? It is not a claim I have ever made. You are misquoting yet again to twist your narrative.
So first you lied about things you wrote in this very thread and you now you went over to intentionally misreading what I wrote to make accusations (and while I didn't talk about Israel supporting Hamas here -maybe you are confusing things you read here with the ones on your spreadsheet of talking points-, Israels government indeed supported them financially and that's as well documented as other things you deny)? How about you bother someone else with your crude propaganda techniques?
/ignore
"I cannot substantiate my point so I am not talking to you."
A pretty pathetic response. Peddle your narrative elsewhere please.
And nobody said that Hamas terror acts were not an atrocity. What was instead criticised is the fact that IDF soldiers also taking their part in killing civilians there is completely and pointedly ignored.
Which you then justify with some bullshit of how it would not have happened without the Hama's attack in the first place.
So my point stands: If you think that soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians is to blame solely on Hamas, then police shooting civilians while trying to stop a robbing is to be blamed solely on the robber, too.
Wait what??
IDF was there killing civilians too?
There are reports that IDF members were there, too. Shooting back amid civilians. It was probably chaotic and nobody actually knows who was shot by whom, because Israel is refusing to even investigate. In fact they also refuse to make public how many IDF members were there and how many died or how many Hamas members died. They only categorically tell us a total number, implying all dead were peaceful civilians killed by Hamas.
(I’m sorry if this appears multiple times. My lemmy client is giving me errors as I try to save this comment)
Active IDF members, or just citizens armed and trained from their days as active IDF?
You say they were shooting back from amid civilians. That’s not them participating in the massacre at all. That’s them defending the civilians. The best way to suppress gunfire coming into a group of people is to send gunfire back at the source.
Shooting a gun requires aiming, aiming requires looking, and looking requires exposing your head. This is why you can suppress gunfire by firing in its direction. The person has to choose between continuing to fire at you, and protecting their own head.
I say head because that’s basically what you need to expose in order to fire, if the rest of you is in cover. If the attackers aren’t in cover then firing back at them is even more effective because unless they stop firing and get to cover their entire body is in danger.
So firing back is totally legit behavior if that’s all they did.
Do you have any reports of IDF firing on other festival attendees?
I doubt very much that it is being ignored by the families of those involved. I highly doubt that Israel will be honest regarding the facts. But again there is a huge difference between blue on blue events and deliberate murders. Or are you suggesting Israel killed civilians deliberately also?
And justifies the IDF bombing their own citizens because...?
Hamas can't be blamed for the fact that they attacked. Fighting an occupier is allowed by international law, and if that wasn't enough Israel's blockade of Gaza is an act of war. This means that starting 1967, and even more so since 2005, any and all military action within the bounds of international law is fair game. They can be blamed for their conduct during the attack. We know civilians were killed by Hamas, and they absolutely should be condemned for that. However, the specifics, including how many of the casualties were civilians vs IDF, how many were killed by the Hamas and how many were killed by the IDF, how many were caught up in the crossfire, those are still in fog of war territory.
Slaughtering civilians is not acceptable under international law. The rest is just propaganda until you can produce data to back it up. Just stating that Israel committed blue on blue attacks is not really good enough. Even then the scale of the attacks by Hamas will have sent Israeli defence systems into turmoil. Getting confused and hitting a wrong target is pathetic, it is not a criminal offence if it is done in a national defence situation.
Please tell that to Israel, since they’re doing an awful lot of that.
Unfortunately you're not a civilian if you're dressed like one but holding an RPG.
I'm sure you've seen the video of the 'medic', who stripped the rifle from the wounded man instead of helping him and handed it to another 'civilian' who was firing on something, presumably IDF forces.
Just like the hospital losing protection once Hamas sets up in it, we're seeing the weaponization of international laws and the complete disregard for the rules of war here and it's fucking tragic.
What video can you link it
Sadly this is how an this war is fought. The Hamas is no regular army, they are terrorists who can hide among civilians, but this also gives no justification for clear attacks on civilians. Israel is in a very delicate and complicated situation...
yes I agree, and I sincerely there is an account after this.
I'm not saying they're allowed to slaughter civilians. I'm saying while we do know civilians were murdered by Hamas, and we absolutely should condemn that, we don't know if civilians were wholesale slaughtered or not (alternatively, whether Hamas soldiers had a policy of killing unarmed civilians or not). When you include the fact that the Israeli casualties include IDF personnel and civilians the IDF killed (not accidentally, see this for more details), we need to know at least the approximate number of those people before we can assign blame. This is why I said we're in fog of war territory.
"Hamas attacked so all casualties are their responsibility" doesn't check out, which is why we need to wait for the details (which still haven't come out).
They created that fog of war though. Israelis would not have made any blue on blue attacks without the attack happening. We could argue all day if Hamas is directly or indirectly to blame for some of the killings, but none of them would have happened at all without the attack. It is not as if the Israelis recognised Hamas was attacking and they used it as an opportunity to kill a few more of their own is it?
Now do a backflip and say Hamas is responsible for the IDF doing the same actions in Palestine.
That is not the same as stating what Hamas has done is not really as bad as it was because X y or Z.
Israel has abused the situation without a doubt. Israel has ran apartheid policies for many years. Israel has been killing Palestinians and evicting them over a very long period. None of this excuses what Hamas did. I do not have a favourable opinion of either group tbf.
It’s both sides that are the problem, right?
The reason Hamas attacked is that Israel is trying to genocide palestine.
It is certainly part of the issue. Other factors you cannot ignore are the influence of Iran and Russia with the intent of adding financial pressure on the US. As well as the plan to destabilise the push Netanyahu from within Israel is under for his extreme views. This is why I say you cannot push all the blame on the Palestinians. Another side is that Hamas and Hezbollah have a very public agenda to murder all Jews in Israel. This leaves Israel with an open door too defend itself. And where there is war there is abuse.
Israel literally is trying to murder all Gazans, so whatever Hamas may or may not desire, it's not actually relevant. Reality is the thing that counts.
Not strictly true when the far right in Israel are using the Rhetoric from Hamas and Hezbollah to give credit to their reasoning. What better reason to be a nasty bastard towards a group than knowing they also want to kill you. You cannot try to push that these groups are not your enemy. They even use this as an excuse to intimidate and thieve from the West Bank, who have a government that wants to resolve the problems and push Israel out of its land.
WTF kind of terrorism supporting comment is this?
Hamas published their own videos showing them murdering civilians. They threw grenades into bomb shelters that families were hiding in.
You're blaming the response for people dying? The response that has been widely panned as taking too long, allowing many civilians to perish?
WTFF.
Israel used terrorism to found their state.
What makes it immoral to use against Israeli colonization?
Bro, Israel was founded by UN decree. The Palestinians were given the same deal, they were actually offered a better deal in the 30s and refused. It wasn't founded by terrorism, it was defended from immediate attack by its Arab neighbors though.
FFS, the Palestinians had millions of dollars set aside for them to set up their government and society, funding that Israel was never provided.
I'd suggest you read the UN declaration before going about spreading disinformation.
Jews are indigenous to Judea. To claim they're colonizing their Homeland is laughable. Palestine isn't even an Arabic word, they're colonizers from the Arabian Peninsula for crying out loud. It's crazy that narrative took off.
Okay I was gonna actually respond to your points but the moment you said this I realized you don't know much about this conflict. Palestinians are also natives of Judea, now called Palestine.
Do you understand how and why the name Palestine was given to the area? Palestine isn't an Arabic term at all, that's because the people who you say are indigenous to the area came from the peninsula.
Sigh. Seriously read a book. Or no read a Wikipedia article.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#Origins
You're currently spreading Israeli propaganda.
I've read a few books on my way to a masters in geography with a minor in middle eastern history. Just a few.
Like in other arabized nations, they colonized the lands to establish themselves there. That they can be genetically linked to the region is only proof that they've been there for an extended period which no one disputes. They've been there since they ethnically cleansed the region originally.
Either this is bullshit or you need a refund on your degree.
It feels like you didn't even read what I wrote/quoted. Modern Palestinians have a strong genetic link to the ancient Canaanites. Not Arabs, the Canaanites. There was no ethnic cleansing of Palestine after the Arab conquest, and if there was you're gonna need a really good source (you won't find one because it doesn't exist).
Hold up, are you trying to argue that after a thousand years of interbreeding the genetic lines are clear there?
Seriously? Of course they're integrated after all this time.
Okay now you're contradicting yourself. Didn't you just say that Arabs ethnically cleansed the region? Then who did they interbreed with? You know what no need to answer, after that minor in middle eastern history either way you're knowingly spreading propaganda despite knowing it's wrong. Get a life.
No contradiction. They've routinely attempted to cleanse the region, in parts having success but never quite getting the job done. Jews are tough to get rid of as the Arabs and Germans etc have found out. You gonna claim that the Holocaust wasn't an ethnic cleansing? There were Jews in Germany when that ended.
That you're attempting to use this as some gotcha, shows your ignorance and desperation. You've tripped on your own stupidity there pal.
I've got a life, it's fulfilling and joyous. It's filled with the great admiration of the Jewish people and their history in the region which brings endless joy to all around.
An immoral thing is immoral regardless of the reasons. Everyone thinks they are the good guy, everyone thinks their actions are justified.
https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/a-growing-number-of-reports-indicate-israeli-forces-responsible-for-israeli-civilian-and-military-deaths-following-october-7-attack/
This is why I'm saying we need to wait for more information. Quick reminder that Israel still hasn't said how many of the 1200 who died were IDF.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/mondoweiss/
Can you please use less bias sources if you're going to attempt to spread lies?
Like this one is known for being extreme and Antisemitic. If this is where you're getting your information, you should probably find better sources.
This is mediafactcheck's bias coming through. This site is founded by Israeli Jews and is explicitly intended to give a Jewish perspective on the conflict. Media fact check takes the words of Zionist-sympathetic organizations like the anti-defamation league too highly, so Mondoweiss gets labeled as antisemitic even though personally I haven't seen a single example of antisemitism on it. The claim that a site created and run by an Israeli, progressive Jew is antisemitic, there needs to be sufficient evidence for that, otherwise the most logical conclusion is that antizionism is being presented as antisemitism.
Can you provide another source? If it's verifiable, you shouldn't have an issue providing something that is considered less biased then.
https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
(Despite the name they have a pretty good rating on mediafactcheck).
https://therealnews.com/did-israels-military-kill-its-own-civilians-on-oct-7
You're relying on a single account from someone who admittedly wasn't present?
I'm not able to definitively state the Israelis didn't kill their own in an attempt to take out the terrorists but nothing here is anything close to definitive that they intentionally wiped out their own people.
Sigh it's now clear that you're not discussing this in good faith so I won't engage any further. For anyone else bothering to follow the comment chain down this far, this guy is purposely misinterpreting the articles to create the slightest hint of weakness in a part of the evidence and dismiss the whole thing. Read the articles yourself and then decide if they're "close to definitive" or not.
Purposely calling out bias is now misinterpretation?
Ya, you're in the 'alternative facts' world where reality doesn't matter so long as it backs your narrative.
Find a source that's not biased, and doesn't reference your original biased source and I'm interested.
The bottom link seems to meet your criteria, but it doesn't seem like you care.
https://youtu.be/OF4VVyRsnUs?si=oVPAkFY99kfPpZw5
There was a soldier inside this bomb shelter. The IDF were clearly using civilians as human shields. Hamas had no other choice to exterminate the IDF terrorists.
Memes aside, Hamas very clearly targeted IDF locations and their main goal was taking hostages.
On Oct 7 they got a currently known 70% civilian casualty rate (1 in 3 kills was IDF) what is far better than America's 90% or whatever the fuck israel is doing in Gaza right now. If anything Hamas has proven that they did not target civilians just by the civilian casualty percentage.
Every citizen in Israel is a soldier or was one. That you're using their reserve status to claim they are soldiers is disgusting.
The Palestinians published video of themselves cheering over brutalized women and handing out sweets while being celebrated in the streets. They put baby's in ovens. They admit this and are proud of it based on the audio from the day.
You're covering for terrorists that don't even want coverage. That's fucked up.
So a non active Hamas combatant isn't a valid target either?
By the way these are active IDF troops. It was a very targeted attack against the militant kibbutzes where mainly soldier's live.
Hamas has a reserve corps? News to.... the entire world there.
These were not active soldiers, they were regular people like Vivian Silver who devoted her life to working with the Palestinian people. They were party goers at a music festival. They were families with young children. This is why they in large part weren't armed, even though they've been trained. Reservists don't have their weapons when they're not active.
I'd implore you to go watch the videos. This wasn't a targeted attack, it was a breach followed by mayhem. There is audio available of terrorists phoning their parents to brag about killing families. You're justifying this. You're defending this. The counter offensive from Israel should be completely acceptable to you by your own logic. Very specific actions, lots of warning too. Guided missiles hitting the exact targets. All against known Hamas operatives. According to your logic the women and children are just what? Part of the targeting? It's hard to believe you actually buy into what you're writing but I have come across some seriously fucked up people here.
I'm just using America logic here. If Hamas was American this would have been called a highly accurate targeted assault with minimal civilians casualties, far better than the American avarage.
If anything Hamas look like angels in comparison to israel which uses JDAMs on schools full of little kids and women and burns them alive or suffocates them beneath the rubble.
American logic? By American logic Gaza should have been nuked. By American logic, shock and awe is an opening statement followed by a complete leveling of cities and towns.
By American logic, the Israelis are playing kindergarten games
I know Americans are hypocritical war criminals. Just trying to illustrate a point of the same propaganda we hear on the news of you replace the word Israel with Hamas.
You act like Israel hasn't done the same, it's literally how they got their country.
Omfg it's not a dick measuring contest. You don't need a fucking asterisk when you want to say that massacring civilians is bad
I'm perpetually baffled by this whattaboutism. What the fuck you think anyone is going to say in response?
Like, "oh, shit, I GUESS IT WAS OK THEN"?
And yet you've a ruler in your hand.
No one is whatabouting, context is important and ignoring it because of inconvenience is absurd.
Not at all, no one said that.
What was the point of your reply then? We know the fucking context.
I would argue most people think they know the history but honestly do not.
Nuanced intelligent argument..... No wait.
Seriously when people do this so they honestly think they're dunking on someone who they can't form an argument against?
Cute that you think your drivel is worth the time to 'argue' against haha
It's cute you think you're accomplishing something with Internet douchebaggery.
I mean everyone knows immature arguments on lemmy change the world, right?
And you think what? That absurdist bullshit is somehow doing something other then showing that you're smug as hell? You're not adding anything you're just being annoying, what point is there to that.
I'm not trying to add anything to anything lol just personal amusement.
You've never come across an argument or a point made online so dumb that you want to slam your face into the desk? Yeah well it's much quicker, easier, and fun, just to post dumb brainlets in response than to have an asinine argument.
So internet douchebaggery, glad I can still call it when I see it.
Totally, I just take the actual time to form an argument against it rather then post annoying memes and generally being shitty. Are you not now involved in an asinine conversation? So what are you actually avoiding aside from providing a stance and standing by it? It seems to be you want to make an argument but can't form anything but posting "brainlets" (as an aside, very very dumb name for shitty low effort memes).
I have criticised Israel for many years. How they treat Palestinians is barbaric. How the west has supported them in doing this is also barbaric. But what happened on that day was the fault of Hamas, there is no excuses.
More likely the fault of a zionist government that's been paying the same organization for years. You can't say the fault is solely Hamas when Israel created Hamas and let them thrive so long as they were hitting targets that were convenient to Israel.
I do find it funny everyone who's saying it's terrible that hamas is killing citizens while Israel is in the West Bank right now pushing out inhabitants with extreme violence ie. Killing citizens in a country they're occupying and destroying then economically.
These things aren't at all separable.
I never once stated or inferred this was totally the fault of Hamas. Hamas are solely responsible for the events of that day where many were massacred.
There is guilt all around over other events that has happened over the period since the Israelis were planted on the land after the war. I would argue more on the Israeli than the Palestinian side. But picking sides is not going to resolve the issues. At some point you have to bury the hatchet and move. While there are groups that deliberately want to antagonise the situation that will not happen.
Netanyahu was under pressure to move away from his extreme right wing policies from groups in Israel. Part of the reasoning Hamas has done this is to stop that peace process gaining traction. My position is that the US should stop funding Israel while they are running an apartheid state. It is difficult to throw all the blame at Israel when you have two factions intent on the genocide of all Israelis. Until there is a change in the positions they are hanging onto, then it will not be resolved.
Factually incorrect, the police investigations into the festival deaths show that the 1400 number is both wrong because they weren't all civilians nor were all of them killed by Hamas.
Correct. No one is picking sides, Israel has a right to defend itself sure they don't however have the right to kill ten times as many civilians and expell an entire populace they've been abusing for at least 30 years which is longer then the lifespan of most of the people being occupied. There is no burying the hatchet, it's a holy war it stops when Israel has expelled Islam from the holy land as determined by both the talmud and bible as a prerequisite for for the end of days. It's why majority Christian countries as well as countries that feel guilty about their treatment of Jews have been screeching about how Israel is totally justified in self defense though that clearly not what this is at this point.
Yes and a coordinated strike utilizing intelligence that could only be gained from an Israeli just so happened to make their long time existential threat a very much real age very much present threat. It's really really convenient, he might lose his position in the government but one of his chosen will fill the seat and the damage will be done. I guarantee Israel takes Gaza as a security measure that will lead to annexation, it was a good plan horrific but very effective.
I have been very critical of Israel actions for many years. Check my history. The atrocities that Israel are responsible for are abhorrent. But two wrongs do not make a right.
I don't care about what you've said outside of right here right now. You say it's totally hamas's fault, that's just factually incorrect. You cannot judge this by limiting time scales, it all matters and it all has an effect on every other action.
No one said two wrongs make a right, you're just conflating things.
No I said that particular event is the fault of Hamas. Please don't misquote me to peddle a narrative.
I'm talking about this specific incident as well, it is factually not all Hamas fault. I just said this directly.
So you are saying the IDF deliberately targeted civilians during the massacre?
I didn't say that. I said isreali police are attributing deaths to the IDF essentially friendly firing and also stating that the publicized numbers are not correct because some of those casualties are idf not civilians and a fair number of those dressed as "civilians" without question are conscripts. The waters are muddy and Israel is doing nothing but stirring shit up with gross hyperbole and intentional civilian casualties they admit to.
Israel holds the narrative due to the wrong Hamas did. There is not really a lot Hamas can complain about. Israel is never going to make any efforts to put Hamas in a good light. I really do not see your point.
Beautiful people just dancing and having a good time, many probably tripping, many rolling, everyone just there to experience joy.