You're worried about someone who says some dumb things when the other choice is a convicted felon, known sexual abuser, who's actively fighting the democracy you stand for and first act as non-president was to try overthrow your government.
Trump should be in prison or hung, and you're comparing him to someone who says dumb things. TRUMP IS A THREAT TO HUMAN RIGHTS, GLOBAL STABILITY AND THE FUTURE OF FUCKING HUMANITY.
I'm not sure what your point is. Even people voting for Biden because Fuck Trump have reasons to be concerned about the current/next president having pudding brains. Assuming Trump loses, once the election is over that's still going to be a pressing issue.
All of what you are saying being true, how does it negate the statement of the previous poster?
Their point was clear, even a brain dead, vegetable humonculous is preferable to Trump for the next turn at president. Whether that solves the entire problem or not (it does not) is irrelevant
If Biden wins and we avoid apocalypse for a bit, we can then deal with the issue of a vegetable president and that is a much lesser issue to address
Reagan proved conclusively that an effective government can have a dementia patient as the figurehead. It isn't ideal, but the people he is surrounded by make a huge difference.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with the policies his presidency promoted, but it was still effective
Can't I want him to step down and give someone a shot?
I call for Trump to step down!
Given, feels like the default position
Last year or earlier would have been the time to do that, not this close to the election.
If they don't pivot, they'll lose. I thought he was too old last year but they've been propping him up and hiding it.
The only reason we didn't notice it before is because they've been deliberately hiding it and now the chickens are coming to roost.
This is his fault.
Yep, I'd prefer a long shot to no shot which is what Biden gives us.
Why are you so sure Biden will lose now? Are you withholding your vote for him? Who's got your vote this year?
The guy (or gal) who's not Trump, fuck that guy
No, because angy.
Yup - but until it happens these are the choices
And literally nobody in this thread is trying to say we should vote for Trump instead.
Its a statement against the country and media - not you individually.
Literally nobody in this thread said you were talking about me individually.
Not voting is effectively voting for Trump, and a lot of people are arguing for that.
Switching candidates this late in the game is also likely to help Trump, and a lot of people are arguing for that.
Point to a single person in this thread saying don't vote.
Apparently people here aren't smart enough to scroll down to see the comments, so I'll quote.
Going into survival mode forever, where either party can do whatever the frick they want, because they others mustn’t win! Nice system you got there, where it’s like 50\50 every time!
They present you a Trump and therefore they can even kill your kids, as long as Trump doesn’t win. It’s a scam… both parties are in it. But they divided you all so perfectly fine, you stopped thinking a long time ago.
Looking forward to your comments, telling me about NO BOth SIdeS!
And Biden enables genocide, among a lifetime history of right wing views such as fighting for segregation.
Trump and Biden are not good options.
People should be furious the Dems allowed him to be in this position today, not sucking it up and pushing harder for it.
Those aren't the comments you linked to. You linked to:
Even if he goes full and permanent vegetable, he’s still not Trump. Top priority is stopping Orange Hitler from taking control again, so please for the love of human rights, vote for whoever has the the best shot at beating him - if that’s Biden, cool. If it’s Harris, cool. If it’s a literal ham sandwich, fucking fine - all three are orders of magnitude more qualified to do the job then Trump.
and
Im sorry, im just not getting this.
You’re worried about someone who says some dumb things when the other choice is a convicted felon, known sexual abuser, who’s actively fighting the democracy you stand for and first act as non-president was to try overthrow your government.
Trump should be in prison or hung, and you’re comparing him to someone who says dumb things. TRUMP IS A THREAT TO HUMAN RIGHTS, GLOBAL STABILITY AND THE FUTURE OF FUCKING HUMANITY.
And then you think other people aren't smart enough to scroll down and find different comments that don't even say not to vote? You linked to the wrong comments. We're not the ones who either fucked up or were too lazy to actually find their proof.
But even with that, "the system sucks and the Democrats have enabled it to become this way" aren't calls to not vote. Biden isn't a good option and people should be furious at the Democrats for allowing this to come about.
That's the point of linking comment threads, so you can see the context and read between the lines. One of those threads, their own replies remove any ambiguity of their meanings.
And the reason those linked to the parent is simply how lemmy (vanilla, at least) works when copying a comment link. At least without fuss. And I'm on mobile.
But whatever, there's plenty of context just from the original links I sent. I really don't give a shit if it's not wrapped up nicely enough for you. I quickly provided counter examples from comments older than his without even trying to find them.
Yeah, sure man. If you'd just said "sorry, that's what was copied, I'm on mobile", I wouldn't have shit on you, but you made it out like you were a put upon martyr and it was everyone else's problem that your links weren't to actual examples of the thing you were supposedly proving.
It was a low effort reply to a low effort false claim.
But sure, keep whining about how I'm attacking you somehow, or whining about me playing victim or something.
Hope you find something to break you out of your funk so you can enjoy your weekend.
The thing is, no one is saying to vote for Trump. No one is saying not to vote at all. Nothing you've linked states that. You're internet arguing against a strawman because it makes you feel good to parrot those classic Dem talking points. But in context, you sound like you're just sea lioning stuff no one is even talking about in the first place. Maybe be less intellectually narcissistic and try actually considering other people's perspectives and what they are actually saying.
Man. You guys really can't read the bold subtext or what?
This is literally the very next reply by the same user from the 2nd link:
Instead of voting for war criminals, how about not?
You don’t fill in a hole by taking a lesser amount of dirt out. Likewise you don’t fix the system by voting for the lesser evil.
They are not being subtle. They do this all the time here. They intentionally avoid specifically saying "don't vote, both sides are bad", but their intent is abundantly obvious.
I'm honestly amazed at how many people here are falling for this crap. They are all over lemmy making the same kind of tongue in cheek "both sides" layups. How the hell aren't you catching on?
Which is exactly why it's really important to have an opponent to Trump who doesn't say dumb things.
Have he said something even close to the stupidity of Trump? Like suggesting bleach against Covid? Why should all Trump opponents be measured with a different scale then Trump. Could you imagine the number of headlines required if Trump would get a headline every time he does anything on this scale?
We can say the media is being unfair to Biden, and it probably is. But it doesn't matter. Biden is clearly terrible at getting positive coverage - whether that's his fault or the media's (and I think we can all recognize it's at least partly his fault). If the goal is to stop Trump, we need someone who can get better coverage.
We can say the media is being unfair to Biden, and it probably is. But it doesn’t matter.
Exactly, because the media would be just as unfair to any candidate. Trying to find a candidate that the media would treat properly is a fool's errand.
Bullshit. If the media scrutinizes your hypothetical candidate for not having cured cancer, do we need to find someone who cured cancer so we can run them? Fuck those disingenuous bastards, they would talk shit about Christ himself if he ran as a Democrat.
Just recognize reality. Trump has spent his life in media. He's skilled at crafting a narrative that appeals to the dumbest 51%. His wide variety of horrible characteristics works against that, but you need a candidate who can take advantage of those horrible characteristics. Rather than doing that, Biden has played into Trump's narratives, despite tons of time to prepare. If we would let ourselves see it, we'd recognize it's a binary choice. Go with Biden and make Trump president, or go with anyone else and stop him.
You're conflating all Americans.
We smart ones get it. The problem is the idiots don't mind rapists or terrorists. They mind "loser" qualities.
The same reason Reagan was so popular while he gutted the federal government to give to the rich, he was a literal celebrity and actor, and many Americans base their entire judgement of someone on their screen presence
And he was already suffering from dementia during his last term. It was just easier to hide back then.
To be fair he only gutted social programs and only gave some of it to the wealthy. The rest went to the military budget. Federal spending ballooned under Reagan!
Right, should have specified “federal social programs and regulatory oversight”
Thanks dude, im an Australian, living in Australia but this whole "the non rapist, non fascist, non criminal guy who has a raspy voice, stutter, forgets a name guy is equal or worst to the Fascist, Rapist Paedophile Destroy the World cunt" is fucking nuts. America, grow the fuck up.
Is it not painfully obvious to everyone including in other nations that we are being uno-reverso'd the classic CIA destabilization plot? Down to supporting right wing movements and fascists? Like our country is under attack. "Grow up" - this is a war being fought online, with weapons we've never dealt with before as a society: AI, algorithms, data mining, bot armies
And truly it's a sophisticated way to attack the US. We can't be fought economically or with actual arms; we will win those battles most likely. So if we just attack ourselves and take ourselves out, even if we are just wounded from the devastation to our education system or slowed down from implementing technology/infrastructure, it still massively helps other countries catch up and even pass us in some regards.
Is it not painfully obvious to everyone including in other nations that we are being uno-reverso’d the classic CIA destabilization plot?
You misspelt FSB. The CIA has no interest in destabilising the US.
I didn't state the CIA was the one orchestrating this attempt. Rather, what is being done is what the CIA have done to many countries for decades. Another country (or maybe a few) just stole the recipe from the CIA, adapted it to modern times, and now we're living the hell we invented and benefited from.
It's not about what people here believe. Lemmy trends HEAVILY left wing. It's about people already saying both candidates suck and don't want to vote or centrists who lean left electing not to vote.
Unfortunately, republicans tends heavily toward the elderly who always vote. Any vote not cast is a vote for fascism. People who care are scared. I am scared. We need someone who will get people in boothes.
Oh, both candidates do suck. But I'd rather have the wrong name on my coffee than someone who gives me a wrong order, tells me I clearly ordered a tea, beats up my wife and destroys my kids future then says how great they are.
Fully agree your need more in booths - unfortunately if the threat of Trump isn't big enough i don't know what you could bring to the table that is.
The threat of Trump hasn't been big enough for the DNC to take seriously, why would a currently undecided independent take it any more seriously?
And Biden enables genocide, among a lifetime history of right wing views such as fighting for segregation.
Trump and Biden are not good options.
People should be furious the Dems allowed him to be in this position today, not sucking it up and pushing harder for it.
Do you have a source on the fighting for segregation - first I've heard?
I strongly disagree with Biden enabling genocide - America isn't the global police, the UNSC are impotent, and even if you isolate to just the US you're looking at 35 odd years of US strategic interests and policy, dependence on foreign fuel (and denial to other superpowers), global trade chokepoints, a military industrial complex that touches every part of the US economy and American wishes to be a beacon of liberty. No 3 year president can fight that and maintain a stable country.
Yup, Bernie sanders would have been a much better choice but he's not a choice that can be made - you can have either blundering buffoon or egotistical, sexist, racist criminal as the most powerful person in the world.
This has nothing to do with “world police”, Biden and America are literally sending weapons and money to Israel. They’ve routinely shielded them from the UN, and will intervene with force if anyone tries to stop Israel.
To quote Biden himself, “I am a Zionist”. He doesn’t even try to hide how evil he is.
You can either have a shit option or a shit option, you will never have a good option unless you stop supporting the status quo.
The US funds and arms Israel, which they use to enforce their apartheid, a kind of segregation, as well as carry out the genocide of Palestinians. Biden enthusiastically supplies these weapons knowing they are used to kill innocent civilians every single day.
Read 2nd paragraph
Your argument is that the US has supported genocide for many years so why bother stopping, which is pointlessly defeatist and amoral.
And ignores us being a major reason here why the unsc can't do anything
If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged.
and Biden is far from the worst in the war crime enabler list, considering he has to deter the most fascist Israeli government ever...
So...go vote for the least bad option that disempowers you the least.
Instead of voting for war criminals, how about not?
You don’t fill in a hole by taking a lesser amount of dirt out. Likewise you don’t fix the system by voting for the lesser evil.
Did you see Chomsky's list? All presidents eventually become war criminals, even if it is by complicit passivity, even that "saint" Jimmy Carter (because of allowing Indonesia to proceed with genocide in East Timor).
By that standard, even Chomsky as president would have been a war criminal if he had just made a deal to allow Ukraine to be invaded by russia with impunity.
You get nothing for your cause by letting trump win. Nothing. And you will lose on lots of fronts that affect you personally, including protest, which at least allows you to control the israelis a little bit.
TRUMP IS A...
Then it's a good thing he's decided not to run for President. Oh wait, he is running? Then we're screwed, if we rely on people voting for their best interests, just like in 2016, rather than just throwing their vote into the ring in order to watch the world burn.
Like it or not, some people aren't going to vote for Biden. We can acknowledge that now, or acknowledge it later. Btw, I really hope I'm wrong, especially since it looks like we're going with the latter.:-( I definitely was wrong in 2016, thinking that there was no way that Trump would win against Hillary.
I feel Trump got in as "something different" and "can't do worse".
Woops
Do you not realize that saying the wrong things is a manifestation of mental processes that aren’t connecting right?
Who gives a fuck? Even if that's the case (which it's not), it's better than fascism. This is a pointless line of thinking when it comes to the election.
Im sorry, im just not getting this.
You're worried about someone who says some dumb things when the other choice is a convicted felon, known sexual abuser, who's actively fighting the democracy you stand for and first act as non-president was to try overthrow your government.
Trump should be in prison or hung, and you're comparing him to someone who says dumb things. TRUMP IS A THREAT TO HUMAN RIGHTS, GLOBAL STABILITY AND THE FUTURE OF FUCKING HUMANITY.
I'm not sure what your point is. Even people voting for Biden because Fuck Trump have reasons to be concerned about the current/next president having pudding brains. Assuming Trump loses, once the election is over that's still going to be a pressing issue.
All of what you are saying being true, how does it negate the statement of the previous poster?
Their point was clear, even a brain dead, vegetable humonculous is preferable to Trump for the next turn at president. Whether that solves the entire problem or not (it does not) is irrelevant
If Biden wins and we avoid apocalypse for a bit, we can then deal with the issue of a vegetable president and that is a much lesser issue to address
Reagan proved conclusively that an effective government can have a dementia patient as the figurehead. It isn't ideal, but the people he is surrounded by make a huge difference.
Now, I'm not saying I agree with the policies his presidency promoted, but it was still effective
Can't I want him to step down and give someone a shot?
I call for Trump to step down!
Given, feels like the default position
Last year or earlier would have been the time to do that, not this close to the election.
If they don't pivot, they'll lose. I thought he was too old last year but they've been propping him up and hiding it.
The only reason we didn't notice it before is because they've been deliberately hiding it and now the chickens are coming to roost.
This is his fault.
Yep, I'd prefer a long shot to no shot which is what Biden gives us.
Why are you so sure Biden will lose now? Are you withholding your vote for him? Who's got your vote this year?
The guy (or gal) who's not Trump, fuck that guy
No, because angy.
Yup - but until it happens these are the choices
And literally nobody in this thread is trying to say we should vote for Trump instead.
Its a statement against the country and media - not you individually.
Literally nobody in this thread said you were talking about me individually.
Not voting is effectively voting for Trump, and a lot of people are arguing for that.
Switching candidates this late in the game is also likely to help Trump, and a lot of people are arguing for that.
Point to a single person in this thread saying don't vote.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11126661
https://lemmy.world/comment/11124666
Neither of those people are saying don't vote.
Apparently people here aren't smart enough to scroll down to see the comments, so I'll quote.
Those aren't the comments you linked to. You linked to:
and
And then you think other people aren't smart enough to scroll down and find different comments that don't even say not to vote? You linked to the wrong comments. We're not the ones who either fucked up or were too lazy to actually find their proof.
But even with that, "the system sucks and the Democrats have enabled it to become this way" aren't calls to not vote. Biden isn't a good option and people should be furious at the Democrats for allowing this to come about.
That's the point of linking comment threads, so you can see the context and read between the lines. One of those threads, their own replies remove any ambiguity of their meanings.
And the reason those linked to the parent is simply how lemmy (vanilla, at least) works when copying a comment link. At least without fuss. And I'm on mobile.
But whatever, there's plenty of context just from the original links I sent. I really don't give a shit if it's not wrapped up nicely enough for you. I quickly provided counter examples from comments older than his without even trying to find them.
Yeah, sure man. If you'd just said "sorry, that's what was copied, I'm on mobile", I wouldn't have shit on you, but you made it out like you were a put upon martyr and it was everyone else's problem that your links weren't to actual examples of the thing you were supposedly proving.
It was a low effort reply to a low effort false claim.
But sure, keep whining about how I'm attacking you somehow, or whining about me playing victim or something.
Hope you find something to break you out of your funk so you can enjoy your weekend.
The thing is, no one is saying to vote for Trump. No one is saying not to vote at all. Nothing you've linked states that. You're internet arguing against a strawman because it makes you feel good to parrot those classic Dem talking points. But in context, you sound like you're just sea lioning stuff no one is even talking about in the first place. Maybe be less intellectually narcissistic and try actually considering other people's perspectives and what they are actually saying.
Man. You guys really can't read the bold subtext or what?
This is literally the very next reply by the same user from the 2nd link:
They are not being subtle. They do this all the time here. They intentionally avoid specifically saying "don't vote, both sides are bad", but their intent is abundantly obvious.
I'm honestly amazed at how many people here are falling for this crap. They are all over lemmy making the same kind of tongue in cheek "both sides" layups. How the hell aren't you catching on?
Swing and a miss, pal.
Which is exactly why it's really important to have an opponent to Trump who doesn't say dumb things.
Have he said something even close to the stupidity of Trump? Like suggesting bleach against Covid? Why should all Trump opponents be measured with a different scale then Trump. Could you imagine the number of headlines required if Trump would get a headline every time he does anything on this scale?
We can say the media is being unfair to Biden, and it probably is. But it doesn't matter. Biden is clearly terrible at getting positive coverage - whether that's his fault or the media's (and I think we can all recognize it's at least partly his fault). If the goal is to stop Trump, we need someone who can get better coverage.
Exactly, because the media would be just as unfair to any candidate. Trying to find a candidate that the media would treat properly is a fool's errand.
Bullshit. If the media scrutinizes your hypothetical candidate for not having cured cancer, do we need to find someone who cured cancer so we can run them? Fuck those disingenuous bastards, they would talk shit about Christ himself if he ran as a Democrat.
Just recognize reality. Trump has spent his life in media. He's skilled at crafting a narrative that appeals to the dumbest 51%. His wide variety of horrible characteristics works against that, but you need a candidate who can take advantage of those horrible characteristics. Rather than doing that, Biden has played into Trump's narratives, despite tons of time to prepare. If we would let ourselves see it, we'd recognize it's a binary choice. Go with Biden and make Trump president, or go with anyone else and stop him.
You're conflating all Americans.
We smart ones get it. The problem is the idiots don't mind rapists or terrorists. They mind "loser" qualities.
The same reason Reagan was so popular while he gutted the federal government to give to the rich, he was a literal celebrity and actor, and many Americans base their entire judgement of someone on their screen presence
And he was already suffering from dementia during his last term. It was just easier to hide back then.
To be fair he only gutted social programs and only gave some of it to the wealthy. The rest went to the military budget. Federal spending ballooned under Reagan!
Right, should have specified “federal social programs and regulatory oversight”
Thanks dude, im an Australian, living in Australia but this whole "the non rapist, non fascist, non criminal guy who has a raspy voice, stutter, forgets a name guy is equal or worst to the Fascist, Rapist Paedophile Destroy the World cunt" is fucking nuts. America, grow the fuck up.
Is it not painfully obvious to everyone including in other nations that we are being uno-reverso'd the classic CIA destabilization plot? Down to supporting right wing movements and fascists? Like our country is under attack. "Grow up" - this is a war being fought online, with weapons we've never dealt with before as a society: AI, algorithms, data mining, bot armies
And truly it's a sophisticated way to attack the US. We can't be fought economically or with actual arms; we will win those battles most likely. So if we just attack ourselves and take ourselves out, even if we are just wounded from the devastation to our education system or slowed down from implementing technology/infrastructure, it still massively helps other countries catch up and even pass us in some regards.
You misspelt FSB. The CIA has no interest in destabilising the US.
I didn't state the CIA was the one orchestrating this attempt. Rather, what is being done is what the CIA have done to many countries for decades. Another country (or maybe a few) just stole the recipe from the CIA, adapted it to modern times, and now we're living the hell we invented and benefited from.
It's not about what people here believe. Lemmy trends HEAVILY left wing. It's about people already saying both candidates suck and don't want to vote or centrists who lean left electing not to vote.
Unfortunately, republicans tends heavily toward the elderly who always vote. Any vote not cast is a vote for fascism. People who care are scared. I am scared. We need someone who will get people in boothes.
Oh, both candidates do suck. But I'd rather have the wrong name on my coffee than someone who gives me a wrong order, tells me I clearly ordered a tea, beats up my wife and destroys my kids future then says how great they are.
Fully agree your need more in booths - unfortunately if the threat of Trump isn't big enough i don't know what you could bring to the table that is.
The threat of Trump hasn't been big enough for the DNC to take seriously, why would a currently undecided independent take it any more seriously?
And Biden enables genocide, among a lifetime history of right wing views such as fighting for segregation.
Trump and Biden are not good options.
People should be furious the Dems allowed him to be in this position today, not sucking it up and pushing harder for it.
Do you have a source on the fighting for segregation - first I've heard?
I strongly disagree with Biden enabling genocide - America isn't the global police, the UNSC are impotent, and even if you isolate to just the US you're looking at 35 odd years of US strategic interests and policy, dependence on foreign fuel (and denial to other superpowers), global trade chokepoints, a military industrial complex that touches every part of the US economy and American wishes to be a beacon of liberty. No 3 year president can fight that and maintain a stable country.
Yup, Bernie sanders would have been a much better choice but he's not a choice that can be made - you can have either blundering buffoon or egotistical, sexist, racist criminal as the most powerful person in the world.
Joe Biden didn't just compromise with segregationists. He fought for their cause in schools, experts say. - NBC
This has nothing to do with “world police”, Biden and America are literally sending weapons and money to Israel. They’ve routinely shielded them from the UN, and will intervene with force if anyone tries to stop Israel.
To quote Biden himself, “I am a Zionist”. He doesn’t even try to hide how evil he is.
You can either have a shit option or a shit option, you will never have a good option unless you stop supporting the status quo.
The US funds and arms Israel, which they use to enforce their apartheid, a kind of segregation, as well as carry out the genocide of Palestinians. Biden enthusiastically supplies these weapons knowing they are used to kill innocent civilians every single day.
Read 2nd paragraph
Your argument is that the US has supported genocide for many years so why bother stopping, which is pointlessly defeatist and amoral.
And ignores us being a major reason here why the unsc can't do anything
If you insist in framing it that way, know that it comes with the job of being US president https://chomsky.info/1990____-2/
and Biden is far from the worst in the war crime enabler list, considering he has to deter the most fascist Israeli government ever...
So...go vote for the least bad option that disempowers you the least.
Instead of voting for war criminals, how about not?
You don’t fill in a hole by taking a lesser amount of dirt out. Likewise you don’t fix the system by voting for the lesser evil.
Did you see Chomsky's list? All presidents eventually become war criminals, even if it is by complicit passivity, even that "saint" Jimmy Carter (because of allowing Indonesia to proceed with genocide in East Timor).
By that standard, even Chomsky as president would have been a war criminal if he had just made a deal to allow Ukraine to be invaded by russia with impunity.
You get nothing for your cause by letting trump win. Nothing. And you will lose on lots of fronts that affect you personally, including protest, which at least allows you to control the israelis a little bit.
Then it's a good thing he's decided not to run for President. Oh wait, he is running? Then we're screwed, if we rely on people voting for their best interests, just like in 2016, rather than just throwing their vote into the ring in order to watch the world burn.
Like it or not, some people aren't going to vote for Biden. We can acknowledge that now, or acknowledge it later. Btw, I really hope I'm wrong, especially since it looks like we're going with the latter.:-( I definitely was wrong in 2016, thinking that there was no way that Trump would win against Hillary.
I feel Trump got in as "something different" and "can't do worse".
Woops
Do you not realize that saying the wrong things is a manifestation of mental processes that aren’t connecting right?
Who gives a fuck? Even if that's the case (which it's not), it's better than fascism. This is a pointless line of thinking when it comes to the election.