what's up with the ToS changes regarding the vegan community?

Out of the loop@lemmy.world – 37 points – 2 months ago

What happened in the vegan community?

I hadn't heard about any of this until seeing that ToS post.

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What an asshole vegan. How stupid can you be to say you love animals and say something as dumb as this

I once gave a vegan friend of mine pause for thought when I pointed out that we probably shouldn't be keeping pets in the first place if those pets aren't in their natural habitat doing what their species evolved to do. They had cats.

A good thought, if you are planning to buy one from a breeder! Don't do that (unless you are a farmer who needs a very specific breed of working dog). By adopting instead, you can ethically have a companion, imo. The animal life already exists, so by giving it a good home, you're engaging in harm reduction. Don't forget to slay and neuter those pets!

I have 2 cats but they weren't born because of me. They're from a shelter. They can freely roam the woods behind my house and of course they kill a lot of mice (and a few birds).
The other alternatives would be keeping them locked up for life and feeding them cat food from industrialized animal farms, or putting them to sleep. I don't think those alternatives would be more ethical.

So you let your cat out to exterminate local wildlife

And you call keeping them inside away from local wildlife that they can exterminate unethical

yes

My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.

I think your opinion is completely ignorant. While there isn't clear scientific evidence that conclude a vegan cat diet is better, there is isn't clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse. So, is your opinion based in reality or your intuition?

"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."

Domínguez-Oliva, Adriana, et al. "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review." Veterinary Sciences, vol. 10, no. 1, Jan. 2023, p. NA. Gale Academic OneFile, dx.doi.org/10.3390/vetsci10010052. Accessed 29 Aug. 2024.

Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.

Edit: I recognize my comment is a bit condescending. I do not mean to discourage discussion. I am genuinely curious and encourage your feedback. Please let me know if I'm missing something important here.

Well I understand you point for sure. Mine is just larger than just the diet. If you are so vegan that you would force your diet into.you pet, shoud you have a pet at all?!! Isn't that captivity?? Why is it better?? And why even have a cat if you know there are other types of pets that are vegan by nature?

If it's a one in a 1000 cases that the cat was inherit and can't be rehomed than that cat is too old to adapt into a new diet without being very distressed. So why torture an animal if you are a lover? And if it's a new animal... well get a turtle or a bird or none, since vegans are against animal exploitation and captivity.

I'm sorry but I get really angry when people come with the "Rules only apply when it suits me" shit

Well I don't follow any "vegan" practices, so I can't really help with the motive part. I think we (internet discourse) often put "vegans" in a box that doesn't really allow for the nuances of individuals. It's not like there is a doctrine that the "vegan" follow, at least not that I'm aware of. So can you be "vegan" and care for a pet? I don't know, but I expect different people will give different answers.

Again, you're making a giant leap to torture. My point was that current scientific consensus is a vegan diet does not necessarily equal torture. So, I'm wondering why you think it does.

the vegan society has a definition of veganism

"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

Nothing excludes the care of pets. It does exclude "animals for food" "as far as is possible and practical". One could definitely extend this to animals for a pet's diet, but I'd argue it's not practical for cats because we don't yet have solid evidence that says it's safe. I just don't think it's rational to flatly liken it to torture.

If that's really the vegan philosophy, dont get a cat. Use an animal-free alternative, like a cushion.

some people would argue the keeping of pets is exploitation

Gish-gallop

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what's wrong with it?

Cats are obligate carnivores. They need meat. A vegan cat is a dead cat.

My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.

"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."

Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.

Cats require a few nutrients which aren't naturally present in plants, such as taurine. Fortunately, those nutrients are easily synthesised, and added to vegan cat foods in order to make them nutritionally complete.

oh god WHY HAVE A DUCKING CAT?!!! Get a bird or a turtle please!

Look at the research before getting emotional.

While it seems dogs need atleast some meat, the scientific consensus is cats can be healthy with a vegan diet and proper supplementation.

I’m not vegan nor do I have a cat, but this debate interested me and I’ve read a couple literature reviews and big papers on the subject.

Cats aren’t what they were 15’000 years ago. Domestication has turned them into an entirely different species.

I thought the issue was bioavailability of those nutrients was called into question?

Long pork is often a euphemism for people meat.

sure. but the above post stated with supplements. so if the food is palatable and nutritional to the cat, then what does it matter?

A person understands the reason they're eating only plants with no animal byproducts. An animal doesn't. An animal is just confused and irritated that their food was changed for the worse by their owner. If their diet and mountain of supplement pills/powders did not actually meet their dietary needs because it wasn't an exact match for their regular food or natural prey, they would still end up malnourished. And not every cat's dietary needs are the same or stay the same as they age.

Malnourished or not, you also wouldn't be able to stop your cat from finding a mouse or insect which snuck into your home and devouring them to enhance their compromised diet. You cannot make a carnivore vegan, you can only abuse them into living in a way they do not naturally live and do not want to live, until they find a way to avoid you for just long enough to go against your wishes and savage another animal, as is their instinctive nature.

Furthermore, do you really think animals have no joy in what they eat, that that's only a human quality? Nutrition doesn't matter to the animal, they just want to eat what they want to eat. Cats almost never turn down an offer of cream or milk despite 90% or more of them being lactose intolerant. It's not nutrients their body needs or can absorb, and actively makes them feel ill. But they want it anyway because it's tasty and they aren't able to consider the consequences of their actions as far in advance as humans can.

Edit: In fact, going off that same point but for humans, you could probably make a human live off some kind of tasteless nutrient bar that gives everything you could need, but it wouldn't mean they'd enjoy it. Oh wait, we did do that before, as a cruel punishment for prisoners in the US, fucking nutraloaf!

and if it was palatable?

You're still making them do something they didn't consent to. They will still chew on bugs and small prey animals (when they get access to them, which isn't often for indoor cats), because it's etched into their behavior. They will take every opportunity they get. You can't make a cat vegan, you can only force a cat on a vegan diet. Can't you understand the qualitative difference there?

The stupidity of some vegas has no boundaries. It makes me so sad to know those poor animals are being torture. You are right but we can't really debate dumb

You’re still making them do something they didn’t consent to.

Bro do you like not understand the concept of pets

Don't talk like you understand it either, since you clearly don't.

do cats consent to eating cat biscuits?

Giving a dog/cat shots in doing something to them they didn't consent to.

Your logic is completely absent

I don't think palatable nutritional vegan cat food exists, at least none with any empirical evidence its safe for cats long-term.

but if it did, would you have any objection?

I would encourage people contemplating it's use to instead get any of the many herbivore companions instead of trying to make the square peg fit in the round hole.

but I'm asking a simple question: if the cat enjoys the food, and it has all the nutrition the cat requires for a healthy life, would you have any objection?

If it actually enjoyed it, sure. But I believe it would be a substantial lowering of their quality of life. Seeing the difference between how happy my cats are with their normal food vs wet cat food vs churu treats, it's plain as day they have preferences. While they can survive with proper nutrients, they won't have as fulfilling a life by limiting their food source in such a manner.

I won't talk about what's natural since my cats aren't catching any salmon or taking down a cow on their own, but I'm not getting a pet just to enforce a restrictive diet on them.

So as long as the cat is happy eating the food and has nutrition it's really not a problem.

I'm not a vet or a scientist. but these issues are easy to solve.

You are certainly neither. If it was easy to solve, it would already be done. I believe it's feasable with today's techniques with imitation meat but at a huge cost.

The reality is that most pet food utilizes what would otherwise become food waste. It may be difficult to replace it in a way that isn't a net negative.

are you a vet or a nutritional scientist by any chance?

That's the thing. I don't need to be, because I'm not suggesting a diet shift away from established practices offered BY vets. You, however, are attempting to escew established norms in favor of your own agenda. As they say, "Fantastic claims require fantastic evidence."

My claims are not fantastical, yours are.

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Gish-gallop

I don't think you know what this means.

Yes I do, only in online comments you can't speak while another person is talking unless it's a livestream chat

The online comment version of basically responding over and over again to eventually tire the other person out

talking to tire someone out is not Gish gallop.

So you don't understand the term.

here:

The Gish gallop (/ˈɡɪʃ ˈɡæləp/) is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm an opponent by presenting an excessive number of arguments, with no regard for their accuracy or strength, with a rapidity that makes it impossible for the opponent to address them in the time available.

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Why have an animal to.torture it? Get a parrot of a fish then. Don't adopt an animal, that can't understand, and push stupid human values to it. A person that says wants to "protect" animal should respect nature. but you know... vegans are jot the best at logical thinking

if the animal enjoys the food and it has all the nutrition the animal needs then how is it torture?.

Do you also rant at people who keep their cats inside against their will?

I hope the RSPCA, ASPCA, Whatever your countries local equivalent is looks into you with that sort of mindset

if the animal has nutritious food and enjoys the food then the RSPCA would be fine.

the RSPCA published the following information:

it is possible to develop a plant-based diet for cats, these need to be carefully formulated to meet the unique nutritional requirements of the cat and be appropriately supplemented with essential nutrients

Gish gallop

so the RSPCA would have zero issue with a cat on a vegan diet as long as the cat had adequate nutrition and was eating palatable food.

any argument with that?

You keep making this logical jump that a cat would enjoy eating shitty food with supplements. They would not. A cat would enjoy some chicken.

but what if they did enjoy eating the biscuits? Would you knock the food out of their mouths?

“But let’s just assume I’m right…”

No. Don’t get a cat.

so if the cats enjoy the food and the food is nutritious you would be against it?

They won’t enjoy it. We’ll do a fucking experiment, link whatever product you’re talking about. I have three cats, I’ll put a cockroach in a bowl, your soggy biscuit in another, and a piece of chicken in the third. Which will they go for?

But if the vegan cat biscuits are enjoyed by a cat and are nutritious, then would you have any issues with it?

Tldr: animals will die, either by eating them or by preventing them to breed (which is even sadder). The entire vegan ideology makes no sense and it works only in a world with infinite resources — certain not ours

Yes, because vegan is outright stupid. There is a balance to everything and animals (humans included) eating other animals/plants is perfectly normal and shouldn’t be frown upon.

What do you think would happen if animals didn’t eat other animals? Or plants? Someone would have to kill them or make them not reproduce anyway — which is exactly what happens with cats — to compensate overpopulation which is a problem (one we experience right now, why do you think most of the people in this world live in shitty conditions? Or are poor as fuck?) humanity is struggling with and other species like cats. Vegans is just bored people thinking they know better and try to make their own little world without thinking it’s not sustainable and it doesn’t even make sense.

Unnecessary edit: I don’t even eat that much meat and I wouldn’t really care if I stopped (I did for a while cause it was too expensive and not worth it) and the conditions animals are breed are completely fucked up, sad and unnatural (think of dog, cat, chicken, cow breeding) but that doesn’t mean that eating meat is wrong and should be replaced by some lab shit (for the aforementioned balance thing reason).

If you lived on an island where there was plentiful nutritious food that did not cause suffering, where there were health benefits to eating the vegetable options and where there were vegetable options that tasted similar to meat, would you still continue to eat meat?

then let’s say I’m on this island. Would I prevent the animals from eating other animals?

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Stop with the gish-gallop already

It's pretty bloody obvious what you're doing

Gish gallop is a series of untrue statements said in rapid fire that the other person does not have time to refute.

you don't understand the word.

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Lol, are you the demoted mod

nope.

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What's wrong with depriving a cat of something it has evolved to need and can die or be in bad health without?

Jesus, stop downvoting someone for asking a question what the fuck is wrong with you people

this is a very emotive issue. apparently cats have to consent to everything. and their life with humans must be 100% natural. otherwise it is animal abuse.

Oh, you were downvoted because people correctly detected a sealion.

potentially. I have no idea what this means.

Cats are obligate carnivores. They have evolved to eat meat and only meat. A vegan diet can and will kill them.

My bias is minimal; I don't practice veganism for myself of my pets.

"However, there is little evidence of adverse effects arising in dogs and cats on vegan diets."

Naturally, organizations such as the ASPCA tend toward caution and advise against vegan diets, but your statement reaches far beyond that point.

My opinion is based on fact. Alex Whittaker did a great takedown of that study, have an ABC brief

That article basically says what the study says. There is no real evidence that a vegan diet is healthier for cat; they point to owner bias as the cause of any perception that these studies show it is healthier.

My point was that there is no evidence that a vegan diet is impossible for a cat. I wouldn't try it because we don't know it's safe, but we also don't know that it's necessarily unsafe. I'm just bothered by people who jump to "vegan diet equals dead/tortured cat" because we don't have any evidence that supports such a dramatic claim.

Nah mate. You literally said " there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse" and then tried to link to a faulty science study that got debunked.

Vegan diets for cats are notoriously difficult due to the fact it runs completely counter to the diet a cat has evolved to process. If you're so dedicated to the vegan ideal that you will attempt to force an obligate carnivore - key word obligate - to consume a diet completely contrary to its digestive system then why are you keeping a pet in the first place?

Sorry for my imprecise response. The article you linked is talking about the "Vegan versus meat-based cat food..." study specifically. I was refering back to the study I referenced in a previous comment, "The Impact of Vegan Diets on Indicators of Health in Dogs and Cats: A Systematic Review.". The systematic review is essentially a big picture analysis of 16 other studies, 6 specifically about cats. The "Vegan versus meat-based cat food..." study was not included.

The systematic review says there is not enough evidence at this point to say whether a vegan diet is better or worse. I still stand behind "there is isn’t clear scientific evidence to conclude it is inately worse".

I'm not putting any pets on a vegan diet. First, I don't personally follow any vegan practices even for myself. Secondly, it's risky at this point, and I don't have enough resources (time, money, attention to detail) to minimize those risks. I keep pets because animal shelters kill animals that they do not have the capacity to support. I can imagine others, even those who practice vegan lifestyles, would commonly cite a similar motive.

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