Nato summit: Ukraine on 'irreversible path' to membership
bbc.com
Nato members have pledged their support for an "irreversible path" to future membership for Ukraine, as well as more aid.
While a formal timeline for it to join the military alliance was not agreed at a summit in Washington DC, the military alliance's 32 members said they had "unwavering" support for Ukraine's war effort.
Nato has also announced further integration with Ukraine's military and members have committed €40bn ($43.3bn, £33.7bn) in aid in the next year, including F-16 fighter jets and air defence support.
The bloc's Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said: "Support to Ukraine is not charity - it is in our own security interest."
I wonder why most neighbours of Russia want to join NATO. Being an aggressive neighbour is the only reason. Russia wants to control their neighbours.
Starting to notice a lot of Tankies jumping to .world because they let .ml slide enough that enough of us ban .ml users on sight
edit: Site to Sight.
This sentiment makes me sad.
I chose .ml because it was smaller than .world (and that seemed to be the point of federation) but was also generic (my interests are very varied) and had great uptime, and didn't de-federate or had been de-federated by many instances. Now people say stuff like this and I feel the need to change instances because I don't want people to tar me with that brush (and I have been accused directly multiple times just because of my instances) but I feel conflicted because the whole point of this while thing was that we could be on any instance we liked and it shouldn't impact our "social standing". I'm disappointed in people that they can't judge a person by the content of their character rather than the instance they are on. And alas - I feel it's only a matter of time before I'm forced to change instance because of other people's prejudice.
Sorry if I'm getting the wrong impression here, but the moderators with whom you choose to associate is pretty easy to change and not a part of who you are.
This sentiment is exactly what I'm talking about.
I'm not associated with the moderators anymore than your average user of .world is associated with their's.
My point is, yes I can choose to change instance but why should I? Lemmy is meant to embody the best of us - and yet some of us are creating "us and them" situations.
I mean, we are.
Why would you join an instance where the mods don't align with your own preferences in terms of moderation?
If there were an instance where the mods were open nazis and banned any pro-LGBT posts, me being on that instance at the very least means I have no problem having to maintain that standard of conduct, if I don't actively co-sign it.
Having one or two mods who are cunts is one thing, having a whole mod/admin team with an explicit political agenda and line to toe is not the same.
And you're associated with the mods in the same way that you're associated with the government representatives of your nation. And I can tell you from experience that even though I don't know the president or any of the representatives, I still get shit from people in other countries for the shit they do.
Yeah, it sucks that you're getting guilty by association, but that's just a base human trait and naivety about how humans behave won't change the fact that this shit is going to be part of any human-based micro-culture. The nice part about online communities, though, is it doesn't cost you your life savings to up and move to a more palatable location.
That's the whole difference, though. I wouldn't make the same claim about moving to another country, for which switching costs are astronomical.
I'm not naive to that fact, I just don't like it.
Communities on .ml are moderated in a way that pisses people off, especially in regard to politics.
People that judge someone with an .ml name on an different instance and a different community are acting like clowns. They're just being lazy and/or prejudicial.
Eh, they use .ml to mean marxist-leninist. I have an inkling feeling you too would be wary if you saw a comment by "user@lemmy.nazi".
I was unaware of that when I posted this.
I don't think that was ever the point of federation, especially with defederation as an option, specifically to deal with instances that don't follow generally accepted morays.
It sucks that you're going to have to abandon the instance you initially picked, but it happens to the best of us. I picked kbin initially, and abandoned that after a while due to the increasing toxicity, and the increasingly large lack of features or development by the one person doing it.
I might judge someone based off the usage of “tar me with that brush”
Don't worry too much about it; downvote and move on.
My advice would be to just ignore people like that who rush to name calling without contributing anything to the discussion.
Just another asshole on the internet...
Oh look, another .marxist-lennonist who served themselves up to my blocklist =D
Never knew this was a thing. I just choose a random instance when I joined Lemmy.
Got banned recently for being critical about "Apple & China relationship" and sourced a few articles in privacy channel or whatever its called.
I didn't know why I was banned because according to their rules and didn't break any rules, so I messaged a few mods for a response.
Please don't ban me... I joined .ml because it was privacy, security and FOSS focused! I had no idea about the ancillary political focus now associated with it.
1: I'm just a user, if its just me blocking you, it's likely not going to impact your lemmy experience much
2: While the .ml tag means I instantly am wary/distrust you, the autoblock happens when you try and justify anything Russia and China has done.
Maybe Ukraine deserved to be invaded? Block
Countries surrounding Russia lining up to join Nato is a sign of expanding US Hegemony? Block
Isreali citizens deserved to be gunned down and r***** because they are settlers and not human? You better believe thats an autoblock
(China's not currently on this example list because they havent done anything in the last few months. I guess you could replace Ukraine for Taiwan in the first example)
(But really, if you are still in .ml and not a Tankie, you should move instances, that instance is too far gone for it to recover)
edit: And before one of you fucknuts "WHATABOUT GAZA" 's me, yeah FUCK the GOVERNMENT of Isreal for what they are doing to Gaza currently, two warcrimes dont make a right
The mind of the tankie cannot comprehend such logical consistency
Mention Gaza? Block. Straight to block.
Take too long to denounce Russia? Block.
Denounce Russia too fast? Believe it or not, block. Straight to block.
We have the best echo chamber in the world, because of block.
I'm joking, obviously. Putin can die in a fire, and I want him to live long enough to suffer from it first. I just ALSO have no faith in the West to be much better. Seems like around here if you're not firmly in one camp, you must be in the other.
Look man, North America sucks, but I'd rather have the States as a Superpower than Russia or China. So if you're gonna suck those two off by defending the invasion of Ukraine or suggesting Taiwan should merge back with China, I dont have time for that. And for the Gaza thing? I dont particularly value the opinions of those who relish the thought of dehumanizing a population, The Isreal/Gaza situation is a horrific generational clusterfuck and both Hamas and the Israeli Government can go fuck theirselves, a terrorist attack, while "understandable" is never something to celebrate, and what the Isreali Government is using that as an excuse to do is abhorrent.
Edit: (Trump getting in again would definitely fuck with whether or not I'd prefer the States being the Superpower tho, although I'm not sure yet how that'd change the rankings)
But… it is, isn’t it?
Go ahead and block if you want. The important thing is that you don’t encounter any ideas that make you uncomfortable.
I wonder why its specifically the Countries surrounding Russia. You arent adding anything to my worldview with braindead takes like yours
Any countries joining Nato would be a sign of growing US hegemony, not just the countries around Russia.
Yeah, its a large instance, and you need some inside knowledge to know about the political leanings.
Fun fact, they chose .ml to abbreviate marxist-leninist
Sort of the joke in all this. The .ml users are "raiding" the sub because they like the advanced feature set.
I chose whatever I am because it was the first one I saw when I made the jump
I'm not saying all world members are Tankies, I'm just saying that I'm seeing a whole lot more Russian apologia coming from .world users (China hasnt done something fucked in the news recently aside from that fuel/food thing that hit front page today) than I used to. Which is a similar pattern that I saw with .ml once most of us wised up to banning the fuck out of hexbear
The difference is that .world admins will ban those people if they break the rules, while .ml ones will ban those who report them.
Yeah, I'm not raising pitchforks yet, just noting an observation. If this becomes a treadmill it'd just make curating lemmy more tiring than it already is
edit: Fine, I'll rephrase. Unless mod infiltration happens, I likely wont ever raise pitchforks towards .world.
.ml and Hexbear got as bad as they did because they encouraged and sheltered Tankies, which I agree with you doesnt happen in world
On a certain level it's healthy that people who have ideologies we disagree with are allowed to participate in discussions, on the other hand on lemmy tankies are an endemic threat because they themselves don't accept or tolerate opposition, and openly abuse tolerance whenever it's extended to them.
I suggested this elsewhere but I do think the liberal side of fediverse should build some sort of moderation compact to ensure that neutrality is maintained and that subverting an instance becomes at least harder, if not impossible.
So like, I get that first point, echo chambers arent particularly healthy, but I have two points counter to that
1: The people I've decided to shut out arent really driving any real nuanced discussion. Its heavily "America Bad, Russia Good". Sure we can talk about American Hegemony, but if you want to bring it up in response to Countries seeing one of their neighbors invading another neighbor and seeking military protection from being invaded themselves, yeah no, America wasnt the driving force behind this recent push. Further, it was the most recent ignition of the Isreal Gaza clusterfuck that drove my particular hatred of Tankies. You see enough people cheering on a massacre and you dont really want to listen to them anymore
2: I'm on the internet in my free time, I'm not paid to be here, nor am I here to make the world a better place, my own mental health takes priority over contributing to a more fair and varied discussions, and Tankies are particularly bad for engaging in bad faith discussions and I dont want to get 4-5 comments into an arguement before I realise that half of what a person is saying to me is manipulative bulshit, so if they are showing all the red flags of being a Tankie, I'm just going to remove them from being a problem for my future. I've half quit Lemmy about 3 times already because of the extremism present here. I dont particularly want to hang out on r/thedonald to see the rights opinion, I'm not gonna listen to a tankie to try and figure out what a reasonable communist might think
I’m trying, but I don’t understand what this has to do with Ukraine NATO membership.
Tankies in shambles.
Tankies are never in shambles. If Ukraine doesn't join NATO they'll say "See, NATO was just using Ukraine" and if Ukraine joins NATO they'll say "See, NATO is expanding east again". Tankies are never wrong when it comes to believing their own delusions.
Sounds like a cult that would follow a racist rapist with 34 felonies.
Nah, their preferred leaders typically have the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people on their conscience.
You're in luck! The racist rapist with 34 felonies is on record saying he would finish the genocide FASTER. Ya'll like that right?
Ah so give him time to impress them then?
Well both seem to abhor democracy, so I guess..
bOtH sIdEz
You posting this screenshot around means you don't understand that this is a self own on your part. Captain_Pronina is undoubtably correct. The people who believe the Uyghur genocide is happening are morally correct even if they get proven wrong in the future. This is because their stance is against genocide no matter what, which is a just stance. Tankies, on the other hand, don't care about genocide, they care about simping for the CCP. That is why they're participating in genocide denial now with Ukraine, Tibet, and the Uyghurs. Genocide denial, especially when it's plausible, is immoral. So even if their denial turned out to be correct, they're still evil morons because their initial reaction was to deny the genocide rather to stand against it or figure out the truth.
I mean, I've seen tankies spin anything to fit their narrative, I'm sure they'll continue to do so. Remember, anything resembling support of Ukraine is an act of aggression against Russia, and tantamount to unilaterally starting WWIII.
Tankies in disarray!
I just have to wonder what the state of the NATO coalition is going to be if Trump takes office a second time.
Probably dented for quite a while but Europe is already in the process of re-arming and there are no existential threats that could prevent it buffalo buffalo buffalo from doing so. Russia can't take all of the EU or European NATO countries at once and Chinas military and navy aren't set up with long distance power projection in mind. The only exception would be the US itself if they really went off the deep end on a second Trump term.
They're in the process of shoveling fortunes into a ravenous private sector arms industry.
None of these countries want a repeat of WW2. Quite a few have large right wing nationalist blocks sympathetic to Putin's United Russia white nationalist model.
This won't be a fight between Russia and the EU. It will be a war of economic attrition that favors the international arms industry and cripples the domestic service sector, to the outrage of domestic people.
Zbigniew Brzezinski is disappointed with you.
My God, it's like the 80s took a shit
Tankies have blood shooting out their penises
Hip hip hooray!
That was a way worse path to NATO membership than just fixing the corruption issues that were keeping them out of NATO in the first place.
I thought they denied membership to Ukraine for being too corrupt
I don't think the decision was ever on the table. But corruption is present in all countries, including the NATO members, so that'd be a bit hypocritical, especially now considering they're fighting for freedom and democracy. Supposedly what the alliance exists for.
What? It's been founded by a bunch of colonial nations (not ex-colonial at that point) still from time to time fighting colonial wars with war crimes and such. It has Turkey of all genocidal bastards as an important member.
The only reason for its existence was accumulating power. Well, as with all alliances.
Of course, kinda motivated by USSR redesigning its ground forces for capturing large parts of the world after they've been nuked. I'm not joking, that's the reason ex-Soviet militaries so terribly suck at actually fighting - they are sort of a different mechanism, more like huge mobile garrisons to deploy in wastelands. Their analog of western ground forces was, say, VDV in Russia ; which is why despite nominally having the narrow function of paradropped assault troops, they've been used for every kind of thing important.
Yes, and also weird.
Yes, when after 2 years of war and hundreds of thousands dead they meet and sign something about "discussing help to Ukraine" in case fighting gets more intensive by not clear which criterion - it means Ukraine is not becoming a member.
About "irreversible path" - they've said such things about Georgia too. Ivanishvili's party is not good, but there's been plenty of time before they started acting like now.
I'm not familiar with that so I looked it up and found this article:
Maybe opinions have changed amongst NATO decision makers.
Just vague memories from a random on the web. But IIRC, they were not welcome in part because of corruption of the previous leader's administration, and one of the first things Zalensky did was crack down on that.
Rather replace Russia-dependent corruption with more generalized corruption.
That was something the current administration cracked down on. Plus with the war, there isn't a lot of loose money floating around, but there's lots being spent on military and infrastructure, so they're making enough in legit business to not need to use corrupt means to get it. And a lot of the Russian oligarchy has left which was part of why they didn't want them.
Nuke time
On one hand, Russia deserves to be nuked. On the other hand, I don't want innocent people to die. So unfortunately no nukes.