Looking to dip my toes into Linux for the first time. I have a 2016 Intel MacBook Pro with pretty solid specs collecting dust right now that I think I’m going to use. Research so far has indicated to
BolexForSoup@kbin.social to 
Looking to dip my toes into Linux for the first time. I have a 2016 Intel MacBook Pro with pretty solid specs collecting dust right now that I think I’m going to use. Research so far has indicated to me that the two best options for me are likely Mint or Elementary OS. Does anyone have any insight? Also open to other OS’s. I would consider myself decently tech savvy but I am not a programmer or anything. Comfortable dipping into the terminal when the need arises and all that.
Mint is full easy-mode. Definitely try that for your first. You can even run it off the USB as a live distro and get a feel for it. Go for the Gnome desktop version, it is prettier than XFCE, just a little heavier.
Mess around with that, break it, fix it, have fun.
@luthis
@linux
Thanks!
There is no "gnome" version of linux mint, but they probably meant the "cinnamon" version (which I would also recommend for a newcomer).
@words_number
@linux @luthis
Appreciate the clarification!
Give fedora a try. It has everything you would need from a modern “vanilla” linux distro and no user telemetry tracking.
Another vote for Fedora. I run it on a 2008 Mac Pro daily just fine. Good luck.
@neinhorn
@linux
No telemetry is definitely a priority. Does Mint track?
To be fair, Fedora has opt-in telemetry. It's 100% anonymized, though, and helps with development. I always say yes when I'm running a beta (like now).
That having been said, you should always check the privacy policies of any given distro. They tend to all be pretty up front about it (kinda hard to lie about it when anyone can check your source code...).
AFAIK, though, neither Mint nor Elementary collect telemetry by default, although they might have opt-in like Fedora. Both are based on Ubuntu LTS, but they also both scrape out so much stuff that they're devoid of most of the Canonical junk.
No Linux distro "tracks" like Windows, Android, iOS or macOS do. This is nonsense. Fedora may introduce opt-something telemitry that will just help make the Distro better, and via one single setting you can always enable or disable it.
I have full data sharing on KDE and also report lots of bugs.
Pro-tip: set your username as "user" do avoid doxxing yourself uploading debug logs
Mint doesn’t by default, but it is based on Canonical’s Ubuntu which is not the most privacy friendly distro. Depending on how you install your software, some telemetry might go to Canonical.
Honestly, any general purpose distro will do fine. I’d watch a YouTube review of Elementary and Mint and see what you think. I’d also throw in Ubuntu and Fedora, as they run a more modern desktop that might be more interesting to you as a Mac user than Mint, which is Windows-like out of the box.
Keep in mind: choosing a distro is sort of like choosing your first car. It’s fine to have a taste, but don’t let the decision paralyze you, because 90% of learning to drive will be exactly the same regardless of what car you choose. Likewise, 90% of linux will be the same regardless of your distro.
@Moobythegoldensock
@linux
Thank you!
Pick something and use it. Don't listen to any of us (but my suggestion is PopOS)
TL;Dr elementary will give you what you want if you like Mac's interface. Depending on the complexity of the thing you're doing you won't need to dip into the terminal too much
Elementary was my favourite out of all of em until I moved to NixOS so I'd recommend that especially coming from Mac
Realistically distro doesn't really matter that much with a few exceptions (arch, NixOS, qubes all do something different) the thing you'll want to pay more attention to is desktop environment
Main 3 imo are GNOME (looks kinda like android, everything is setup sensibly but not much customisation) KDE (looks like windows 10 out of the box and functions in a similar way, very customisable) XFCE (looks kinda like windows XP/7, one of the most lightweight ones)
Elementary uses a modified version of gnome (I believe) called Pantheon
Pop uses their own spin on gnome though they're currently writing their own
Mint uses their own DE called Cinnanon
Ubuntu and fedora I believe both use gnome by default but can also be installed with others
I've been running Linux on my 2015 MacBook Pro for years, as well as my older Mac Mini which I still use.
I've tried all the distros and my recommendation is this:
Don't use Ubuntu or Fedora because they've been giving the community a hard time lately and are becoming too corporate.
Use opensuse, Debian, PopOS or EndeavourOS. They all offer the Gnome desktop which you'll choose when installing.
Gnome also looks the most like macos if you want to retain that familiarity.
It comes in two versions: Linux Mint which is Ubuntu based and LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition) which is Debian based. I use LMDE 6 because I want to move away from Ubuntu, but either is fine. As a new user I'd recommend LM with the Ubuntu base.
Your iSight camera won't work because it needs a proprietary driver which Apple doesn't supply. There is a reverse engineered driver on GitHub over here: https://github.com/patjak/facetimehd/wiki
I've not tried it but apparently it works.
When installing whichever distro you will use, it's important that you are connected to the net via ethernet cable. Because Linux will have to search for the proprietary WiFi drivers and install those either during install or post install. So your WiFi likely won't work post install and you'll have to tell Linux to install the Broadcom drivers.
LM and LMDE (and I think PopOS too) make this easy because they have a driver manager GUI which will identify the driver and let you select it using a radio button. At which point it will install it and you're good to go.
On opensuse, Debian and Endeavour (Arch) you'll probably not have that tool and will have to find the driver in the software repo. You might have to use some commands to look up your WiFi Broadcom hardware and then search the net to find out which driver will work.
It sounds tricky but it's not too bad, there's normally lots of info online. Plus with Linux there are times when you will need to look up stuff, commands etc. It's the Linux way, being a slightly more hands on OS.
Avoid Elementary OS. They are Ubuntu based but trying hard to be like Apple and sadly adopting some of Apple's anti-libre practices like limiting what software you can install and charging money for apps. As well as trying to get Devs to make apps only for Elementary which all use the same design guidelines and therefore can't be used on other Linux distros... It's a disgusting and disgraceful blotch on the FOSS community because GNU/Linux is all about User Freedom and interoperability, whereas Elementary are the opposite and shouldn't exist.
A bit lengthy but I wish I knew this at the beginning. Would have saved me a lot of pain.
I really struggled between deciding to up- or to downvote. I disagree strongly with most you wrote, but I decided for upvoting, since you put a lot of effort in your reply.
I don't see much difference between Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSuse and PopOS. They are all "Corporate" (owned or backed by a private company).
That fact alone doesn't matter much for the end user. What matters is how fair they treat their userbase and how sustainable the company is. Fedora for example is a community project, backed by RedHat. So, the community decides pretty much everything and RH gives us devs and $$$. This symbiotic relationship ensures stability and enough manpower. I'm anti-capitalist myself, but find this concept not bad. Still, you're partially right. They are independent on paper, but in reality dependend on RHs money and devs.
If one dislikes this, we can always use and support independend distros like Arch or Debian.
Even Ubuntu isn't as bad as everyone says, even though I wouldn't recommend or use it myself.
No, Gnome looks like Gnome. They do their own thing and don't copy other UIs. I would recommend KDE (maybe with some themes and two bars) instead if you want it to look familiar to MacOS.
But I would honestly recommend exactly this: Gnome. It works different UI wise, and this unfamiliarity gives the new user the hint "You shouldn't do it like you used to, this is another OS that works different".
On Mint for example, people often download their apps through the browser, since it looks and often works exactly like Windows.
They don't limit you in any way. You can always install Flatpaks and everything else, they just offer their own repo with curated software, developed by themselves and optimized for their best UX, by default.
The option to support the devs financially is a revolutionary idea in the Linux world. Flathub also decided to copy that idea.
And I like the centralized tipping-system. I always wanted to support the devs, but don't have 1000 payment options. I want to appreciate the work they do and don't mind spending a buck or two for their great app I enjoy using.
The apps are all FOSS. You can rebuild or get them anytime you want.
if I could give you two up votes I would, you summarized all my thoughts better than even I would've
I started on Linux with some old distros that aren't around anymore but went to Ubuntu eventually and then played with different distros after that. There is a lot of opinions on how things should be in the Linux world and that's what makes choice so awesome.
I say start with Ubuntu because there is TONS of documentation and help on forums, users are generally super helpful unlike some other distros and it's a solid STARTING point. Honestly you'll end up distro hoping like we all are guilty of so you won't stay on one for a long time.
Mint is another solid choice as is pop_OS!
Debian is great as a base but I found it lacking in bells and whistles early into my Linux days. Stay away from the Chinese distros, they'll make you sad (not because they're Chinese made but the lack of work being put into them).
Have fun trying every flavor out and enjoy breaking your system from time to time and eventually try Arch or even Gentoo lol
I think mint and pop are generally the distros people recommend over Ubuntu nowadays
Documentation for Ubuntu generally works for anything Ubuntu based and they're specifically designed for newbies coming from Windows
That said they're coming from Mac so elementary might be better
They never said they were coming from Mac. You are correct in regards to Mint and pop_OS! tho, I just think the recommending of other Ubuntu based or even other based distros nowadays is just so "political". Canonical isn't the darling it once was but it's still a good distros to cut teeth on especially because you can easily hope to another spin for a new DE and still be on "Ubuntu".
One of the things that makes Linux so great is the freedom of choice and the shear amount of options available so we can all use a distro from a person/community/company that shares in our values/ideals that we can then go on to tell everyone that they should be running it lol.
I've had numerous issues running Ubuntu and any Ubuntu based distros on my laptop, that's why I personally dislike it
The fact that they're starting to make questionable decisions around snap is just extra reason imo
Also op didn't say they were coming from Mac but did say they were planning to put Linux on one they already have, think it's a safe guess that they might be used to macos
Laptops are always iffy when running Linux, so many proprietary things in them but I am surprised you had so much trouble with an Ubuntu based distro.
I'm not used to MacOS myself but I did have a MacBook and I currently have an iMac running Lubuntu. Multiple environments makes things interesting lol.
I think the reason I ran into problems was mainly Nvidia drivers to be fair
I had issues with them to on a laptop I had and built in webcam.
Out of all the distro hopping I've found NixOS is the most solid. That said, my built in microphone sounds atrocious for some reason on nix
I've been wanting to give Nix a try but I can't find a use case for it's best feature. The list is long of distros to try (Clear, Garuda, rhino, and so on) but I really do need to give Nix a go.
It's quite good as an all rounder really, I'm using it on my gaming pc, laptop and raspberry pi for some self hosting stuff currently, all of which use a modular config file so I've got the same installed programs, hotkeys, user profile etc whatever machine I'm using
That's its best feature I'm talking about. I don't use the same OS on two different machines so I can't make use of the config file. I never thought about running it on a Pi so maybe I can just toss it on a SD card and give it a whirl (I like using actual hardware instead of VMs).
Absolutely same with the actual hardware thing you can't get a good feel for an os on a VM
Nix package manager and home manager runs on any distro and even Mac so you can use a home manager config cross machine
There are other benefits though like the fact that you can configure services, system components and other software with like 2 lines of code most the time and it just works
Time to go install Gentoo!
Masochist
I've done LFS and it was really boring. Apparently with Gentoo you learn more.
You're a glutton for punishment aren't you lol
Challenge more like
I didn't enjoy Gentoo, the process was long and slow (3rd Gen Core i5 system at the time) and spending hours just getting things up and running wasn't my cup of tea. I can see the appeal but can't understand the elitism but to each their own. Good luck and enjoy your journey!
Well, I'm doing it for the learning process, and armed with a Ryzen 5 4500U, time and patience (and the knowledge that a kernel takes 40 mins to compile on LFS when on Virtualbox using half my cores), I think I'll be alright.
You're way ahead of where I was lol. I haven't touched LFS but I hear Gentoo is easier so you should be alright. Have fun learning!
Thanks. To be honest, wirh LFS you just follow the book. The only thing you really learn is how to unpack tar archives, and the fact that it takes super long to compile software.
Hope this can be understood as semi-on-topic harmless fun here:
Yuki installs Gentoo
@jmbreuer
@linux @mogul @theshatterstone54
Autism jokes aside because it’s 2023 and we really shouldn’t make that the butt of a joke, that was funny.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
Yuki installs Gentoo
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Pop!_OS runs great on my intel MBP.
Mint and Pop OS are fantastic. Both have great support out of the box and lots of help out there on the Internet.
If you're trying to game I would flatly say Pop OS. General computing, both are a tie for me. They just work (as far as Linux goes).
Does your Mac have Touch Bar? If so, you should try using t2linux-provided ISOs. Although 2016 MBP isn't T2 equipped Mac, the Touch Bar driver should be compatible AFAIK.
Cool! That was my concern. A cursory search shown a lot of driver issues for macs, albeit some were rather old.
This is an actually useful recommendation
As a long time dabbler and recent full on Mint user, I would recommended either Ubuntu or Mint for a first timer for sure. I would say that I enjoy Mint more just because I like the look and feel of the Cinnamon DE more over the Gnome DE or whatever it is that Ubuntu ships default with. Mint is very easy to use, doesn't have lots of major updates all the time so it doesn't break and it's relatively light weight.
Use Debian, install with GNOME and enjoy everything working from the start and a very stable system. No further fuzz about other distros required. Common comment "oh but debian doesn't have the latest version of application X" - configure flatpak and you'll be able to the that latest version from the GNOME Software "store". All the stability with the latest stuff. Enjoy.
As someone who got started with Linux using Mint too years ago I think you got a great selection there and I wouldn'tup listen too much to the comments, big oarts of the Linux crowd on Lemmy came from Lemmy and it's toxic and shitty so they will tell you you are wrong no matter what you do or say and recommend terribble things to newcomers! Just flash Mint Cinnamon or Elementary on a USB stick, boot them up and play around with both before you decide which you want to install. I am a Fedora Gnome user myself and as someone who probably values simplicity (mac user) Gnome could be interesting to check out too but it's very different to anything else out there and you already got two great options to try there! :)
@Gamey
@linux
Thanks! After reading everything I think your comment is tilting me towards mint cinnamon
It's a fantastic distro to get started, I think the main advantage are various GUI tools for more advanced things that other distros usually require the Terminal for which can be a bit scarry at first. Elementary looks a lot more like MacOS and might be a little more familiar at first while Mint has a fairly similar layout to traditional Windows (7/10), keep in mind that nether of them is a copy tho and you will run into differences. I do think that Mint is the best beginner Distro because of those GUI tools but it can't hurt to try both, almost all Linux distros have live boot to play with them from a USB stick first so you won't have to actually install anything to check them out. In case you go for Mint make sure to pay attention to the welcome screen once you installed it, that guides you through a lot of stuff like configuring automatic backups and the driver manager to download potentialky missing drivers!
@Gamey
@linux
While I would never say I'm proficient at it, I am ok at navigating via terminal commands and such. Following directions in particular isn't an issue. But yes I would prefer to use a GUI when possible of course.
The terminal is fantastic once you roughly understand what the commands you execute do but that requires a bit of experience and it's great to have GUI tools for certain things. Modern Linux usually covers everything a normal user should need with GUI tools but there are always edge cases where you have to do something more advanced and I feel like especially those are tough to do in a terminal for new users which is why I appreciate Mint so much! It's been quite a few years since I switched so many things are different by now but I moved back to Windows two times myself from Kubuntu and Manjaro before I discovered Mint so I never get tired to recommend it. Good luck on your journey! ;)
You will get very different opinions here. Important are what you want to do
I would recommend Fedora Kinoite. Install the official image or use the Ublue image. They are recent but checked updates, versioned, resettable, etc. With Fedora and lots of other distros you have automatic backups, if an update may break something.
Its basically the future of Linux, at least for most use cases.
PS: I literally broke evey other Distro, most of the recommended ones here.
While disagreeing, I still upvoted. I think more people should see this suggestion and add their opinion too.
I'm a huge fan of SB/ uBlue, but I don't know if I would recommend it to a new user.
For me personally, it's the best distro ever. It's reliable, modern, AND it doesn't break.
I'm the most talented person ever to break my stuff. I already managed to do that, even on on SB and fixing the kernel panic (+other breakages), which I would have done by reinstalling, was only one reboot and boom, it worked again. I just want to get my tasks done (gaming, etc.) and knowing I never have to spend a weekend reinstalling is godsend.
BUT, things just work differently, and sometimes more complicated. You never install something traditionally, only per container (e.g. Distrobox or Flatpak), which is extremely uncommon. And, there are still here and there some limitations. For example, you will never install a VPN client, since they want to interact and change the base system, which they can't
I would recommend something Debian-based, like Mint. If you don't tinker, they also never break. And most guides are for exactly those distros.
SB is more for either people you KNOW that they will never explore the system (e.g. my mum) and only use their device like a tablet,
or who are exactly this advanced in their Linux journey that they begin tinkering without knowing what they're doing, breaking their system and not being able to fix it themselves. Or they begin distrohopping.
I for example always broke any distro somehow "without doing anything wrong". Reinstalling was always easier than fixing for me.
And I was a huge distrohopper too, which is fixed by now.
Yes I also broke lots of distros, (Linux Mint, Kubuntu, KDE Neon, Fedora KDE) and switched away from MXLinux (too old) and Manjaro (bad reputation even though great experience)
You can install packages normally? I think you got something wrong here.
Just do
rpm-ostree install apporrpm-ostree install /path/to/app.rpmfor local RPMs. Like normal actually.Yes agree and agree, I broke everything else.
I disagree with Debian. Apt is horrible, updates are bad. Linux Mint is nice, but the Desktop is still X11 which is now basically unmaintained. You will probably get no real support for X11, and I dont know how long it will take the devs to get XFCE / Cinnamon to Wayland.
I mean I literally had an issue with the otherwise great MXLinux, where my Nextcloud simply didnt work, because the client was a vew versions too old.
Debian is all about preinstalling stuff, which is pretty annoying, and thus native packages. Debian with auto updates and only Flatpaks maybe, but like it is, no way.
Yeah, you can, that's right. But it's absolutely not recommended (except drivers or stuff like that). You only do that when there is absolutely no other way.
But I'm not that exactly sure on how "bad" it is on rpm-ostree tbh. I've definitively done my research when I switched to Silverblue, and reason for the direct-install-disrecommendation didn't get explained good enough for me. Afaik it is only an additional layer on top of the base, so it is also not OS-changing. Please do me the favor and explain it to me if you can :)
I said "Debian based", not plain Debian. I never got warm with it tbh, for deskop I prefer rpm-based distros, I don't even know why. But, like it or not, Ubuntu (and therefore Debian) is just the standard if you google " how to do x on Linux". And a newcomer, who doesn't know the difference between apt and dnf for example, will get into trouble sooner or later.
True Ubuntu and debian is standard and to this day many external Devs just provide .deb files or now even snaps XD
So layering, as far as I understood:
If you install/layer additional RPMs, after 3. you have an additional step, where rpm-ostree also uses traditional Fedora repos and downloads regular RPMs to your system. You can use any regular Repos, even COPR but you need to add the .repo files manually to
/etc/yum.repos.d/. RPMFusion has a fancy way where you layer a package and that handles the updating of the repo files to your current version, really nice.So this package is installed along, and as its done through rpm-ostree its very well traced. It will do changes but an
rpm-ostree uninstall PACKAGEwill completely remove it again. If you are not entirely surerpm-ostree resetwill completely reset your system to be a mirror of the ostree remote.If you have a background service, you could reset the system every month or so. Not necessary but this would make extra sure your system directories are not weirdly modified. You would do this through
Or maybe that doesnt work, not sure, and you need
Here you can also remove added packages like Kwrite or firefox + firefox-langpacks
I run Pop!_OS on an Early 2015 MBP 13. It's pretty much flawless. The only thing that doesn't work is the webcam, which is a bonus for my ugly mug.
PopOs and Ubuntu are very user friendly and pretty similar to a Mac out of the box.
The last time I tried installing on a MacBook I had all kinds of problems. Maybe it is better now, but I'd suggest starting with a traditional PC if you're brand new to Linux
How is UEFI on Macbooks? Its not Microsoft stuff, where Ubuntu and Fedora are having officially signed images.
@ZephyrXero
@linux
What kind of problems?
Mainly with the bootloader, but also a few device drivers. But this was like 6 years ago and UEFI was still new. So maybe it's better now. Generally the older your hardware the more likely it is to be supported
@ZephyrXero
@linux
I feel like the 2016 intel mbpro is a pretty safe bet. If not then it’s easy enough for me to reload it with mac OS and Time Machine it back
To provide a different experience, I have installed Linux on my late 2011 MacBook pro last week. Everything worked out of the box. If the CPU is Intel the support is there. Wi-fi drivers may require troubleshooting but they'll work.
I just installed antiX and then MX on a 2008 macbook pro. It didn't want to boot from a USB so I burned a DVD.
Chromeos flex?
Perhaps Arch Linux? Maybe a bit too much for a toe dip though, I wouldn't know. You'll likely run into driver issues (wifi, audio and apple specific hardware) and Arch ostensibly has the latest drivers. Will happily be corrected though, I've been languishing on Ubuntu and haven't had to fix anything in years.
Arch is not a beginner OS.
OP: give Mint or PoPOS a try or start off directly with Debian stable. As far as driver issues go, make sure to enable the
non-freeandnon-free-firmwarefor newer Debian versions and you should be okay.I don't want to be rude, but recommending Arch to a newbie who wants to dip their toe in is just mean. Why not tell them to set up an OpenBSD desktop while they're at it.
And the laptop they're using is from 2015. Why would you need the latest drivers for that?
I am using Linux for 3 years or so now. Even with BTFRS snapshots, no AUR and other things I would not use Arch over Fedora Kinoite. I have no idea how to chroot into anything and suffer from enough daily KDE bugs (bts the KDE components are basically the same version as on Arch).