Right, nearing mass production is what we call it when their PR department announced just a couple weeks ago that they're delaying the project until 2025, and they've been working on it for a decade.
These posts need to stop. Their only purpose is to lead gullible people on while the company desperately wishes for a magical fix to all their problems.
I'll believe it when it's actually in production. Toyota has been making claims about this for a long time now and it always seems to be "just a few years" away.
That's where I am, too. We've been hearing that fully practical electrification of transportation is Just Around The Corner! since the '90's. I'm still waiting for it to actually happen.
But I'm ready. Bring it on already.
On the bright side, with several almost completely practical BEV's on the market already we're much closer than we've ever been.
Thing is, if you're willing to go down to a Geo Metro type of car, BEVs would have been easily viable quite some time ago. Safety demands (for the passengers, not pedestrians) have made it impossible to remake anything like the Geo Metro, and general market trends have pushed cars even bigger and heavier. Meanwhile, we've increased pedestrian deaths with all these huge cars.
One of the biggest problems in the BEV market right now isn't the technology, but that manufacturers focused on gigantic luxury SUVs and trucks first.
Yep, thankfully there's more manufacturers trying to make it work. Samsung sounds promising
Other companies have also made progress recently. Chinese battery maker CATL revealed it was preparing to mass-produce its semi-solid batteries before the year’s end, while South Korea’s Samsung SDI has completed a fully automated pilot line for solid-state batteries.
A Samsung car would have pop-up ads on the windshield
And parts to repair it be unavailable after a year
Toyota president Koji Sato also admitted that production volumes of solid-state batteries were likely to be small when the company rolls them out in electric vehicles as early as 2027. “I think the most important thing at the moment is to put out [the solid-state batteries] into the world and we will consider expansion in volume from there,” he said.
SOOOOO not really close.. another press release hyping this up. How small is SMALL? Hundreds?
They clearly are still having trouble scaling production of this technology. It has EXISTED for some time but isn't of use to cars if they can't make hundreds of thousands of them.
they're using the promise of better batteries to make people reconsider buying full electric vehicles now. I expect it to be exactly like fusion, always a few years away.
Commercial fusion is not a few years away, and I've never seen the claim apart from deranged individuals on Twitter.
If everything goes to plan, commercial fusion won't be here for a few decades.
What the claim may have been is experimental fusion, which does exist right now, we have generated power using fusion, and we even made more power than we put into it recently. It's moving, but it's slow, as planned for the last few decades.
And even that "more power than we put into it" comes with a big asterisk. The power being output by the laser is smaller than the power being output by fusion. Big lasers tend to be grossly inefficient things. We'll need at least 10 times the output in order to generate enough to power the laser. That's not even considering the power usage of the facility around it.
So, yeah, we're at least a few years away from enough power for the laser to sustain itself, at least a few more to be able to run the facility and still have net power, and then at least a decade after that to get to commercialization.
Not even a press release, but an FT post. Which is worth less than a press release somehow.
As far as electrification goes, Toyota is virtually at the bottom of the list of car manufacturer . I'll see it when I believe it.
F.U.D. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. A favorite tactic of IBM, then Microsoft, now Toyota. If you can’t compete, announce an upcoming “breakthrough” so customers will delay purchases from competitors
Truth, these type of announcements are meant to instill a sense if something better is coming if we just wait. It's a honest strategy if there is truly something in the works but right now a lot of misinformation is just making it an bad strategy to use.
Yeah with car manufacturers the usual tactic is 'concept' cars of 'the next model' containing every single thing a consumer could wish for.. which of course never get built.
Pontiac Aztec was the worst ever. The concept was so cool and they claimed almost ready for production. It would have been YUGE! ….. then somehow they released a completely different disaster of a vehicle that is now part of history as one of the worst ever
Wtf is this linked to? A good dozen tries and I can’t pass the captcha? Am I just a sentient robot who is unaware or this a mechanical Turk thing where I’m helping some bot pass l
Do you use Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)? They block it because they remove some trackable information from requests.
That's fucking stupid. But yes, I had the same problem, and the article is behind a paywall 😥
Not intentionally, but I’m on iOS which ma becrelevant
Same here - not sure if this is a cloudflare problem, but i've been getting these more and more. I'm on a Mac, I'm pretty darn sure I don't have a virus, so I don't know what's going on.
Never did get to the article, btw.
Someone enlighten me: what is a non-solid-state battery?
One with a fluid electrolyte. That includes current Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Polymer batteries, as well as the older Nickle-Metal Hydride and Lead-Acid batteries.
A lithium-ion battery is composed of cathode, anode, separator and electrolyte. Lithium-ion batteries for smartphones, power tools and EVs uses liquid electrolyte solution. On the other hand, a solid-state battery uses solid electrolyte, not liquid.
If you puncture one with a nail or something, you can see the liquid drip out... /s
If you can look past the fire and toxic fumes
It's pretty tasty too, but quite spicy
Liquid in the scientific sense, it's more of a paste. Lithium hexafluorophosphate(aka LiFPO) mixed with Dimethyl carbonate or Diethyl carbonate which are just there to float the Lithium between the plates without letting it burst into flame from any humidity that might happen to reach in.
Very interested to see what things look like not when it releases but a few years after.
Problems include the extreme sensitivity of the batteries to moisture and oxygen, as well as the mechanical pressure needed to hold them together
Not quite the ideal thing to have in a real world car. For example, what happens after a little accident leaves an opening in the hull of such a battery? Or creates some more pressure than needed here and there?
Probably safer than current ev batteries
Not at all.
Why? Solid state batteries don't use a flammable electrolyte
The electrolyte isn't the only flammable material in lithium cells.
No, but it's the difference between solid state and lithium cells. There's still a fire risk with solid state, but then there's a fire risk with ICE. It just needs better engineering like they've done with current ev batteries
That isn't what's being discussed. We're comparing cells to cells, not ICE to BEV.
I know... solid state doesn't have a flammable liquid electrolyte
If it contains energy, there's probably a way to make that energy release in an uncontrolled fashion. As energy densities increase, so does the risk if that happens.
Luckily batteries are built such that it's actually quite hard to ignite them. As are fuel tanks for the same reason.
Cool. That's not the only combustible material in a cell. And since a solid state battery only changes the electrolyte, everything else is unchanged. Meaning they are not significantly safer, because several types of liquid electrolyte aren't flammable. Crucially, this is also a reason why solid state batteries are pointless for the foreseeable future, and only bring negatives to the table.
They are significantly safer. Current li-ion in cars have some very bad failure modes; just puncturing them can release a massive, uncontrollable fire that could potentially keep itself going while fully submerged in water. Now, even those are somewhat overblown--they're pretty well protected in cars--but these problems aren't universal to all lithium chemistries, much less all batteries in general.
Yes, they can catch fire. No, you don't need four fire trucks worth of water tanks to put them out. This matters.
So you're more than a decade behind on LiB tech. Got it. Now it makes sense why you think this boondoggle is even worth discussing.
Other than the massive difference in mileage and reduction in charge time? Sure
Why do you think there are so many manufacturers trying to scale solid state? For fun?
As in solid state has lower range, lower cycle life, and higher cost. Quite an amazing hill to be attempting to defend. lmfao
As for "so many" manufacturers, there aren't many. And they've been working on this research project for two decades. Are you also a proponent of perpetual motion generators because people "have been working on them" for so long? It's long term R&D because you have to hedge your bets. The battery tech itself still sucks.
The potential benefits are enough for Samsung to be building a pilot line. That's an investment, a bet, and there are reasons why:
Higher energy density, which means more power in a smaller size and weight.
Higher safety, as the solid electrolyte is non-flammable and less prone to catch fire.
Shorter charging times, as the solid electrolyte allows faster movement of ions.
A wider range of operating temperatures, as the solid electrolyte is more stable and less affected by heat or cold.
Longer lifespan, as the solid electrolyte reduces the degradation of the electrodes
Right, nearing mass production is what we call it when their PR department announced just a couple weeks ago that they're delaying the project until 2025, and they've been working on it for a decade.
These posts need to stop. Their only purpose is to lead gullible people on while the company desperately wishes for a magical fix to all their problems.
I'll believe it when it's actually in production. Toyota has been making claims about this for a long time now and it always seems to be "just a few years" away.
That's where I am, too. We've been hearing that fully practical electrification of transportation is Just Around The Corner! since the '90's. I'm still waiting for it to actually happen.
But I'm ready. Bring it on already.
On the bright side, with several almost completely practical BEV's on the market already we're much closer than we've ever been.
Thing is, if you're willing to go down to a Geo Metro type of car, BEVs would have been easily viable quite some time ago. Safety demands (for the passengers, not pedestrians) have made it impossible to remake anything like the Geo Metro, and general market trends have pushed cars even bigger and heavier. Meanwhile, we've increased pedestrian deaths with all these huge cars.
One of the biggest problems in the BEV market right now isn't the technology, but that manufacturers focused on gigantic luxury SUVs and trucks first.
Yep, thankfully there's more manufacturers trying to make it work. Samsung sounds promising
A Samsung car would have pop-up ads on the windshield
And parts to repair it be unavailable after a year
SOOOOO not really close.. another press release hyping this up. How small is SMALL? Hundreds?
They clearly are still having trouble scaling production of this technology. It has EXISTED for some time but isn't of use to cars if they can't make hundreds of thousands of them.
they're using the promise of better batteries to make people reconsider buying full electric vehicles now. I expect it to be exactly like fusion, always a few years away.
Commercial fusion is not a few years away, and I've never seen the claim apart from deranged individuals on Twitter. If everything goes to plan, commercial fusion won't be here for a few decades.
What the claim may have been is experimental fusion, which does exist right now, we have generated power using fusion, and we even made more power than we put into it recently. It's moving, but it's slow, as planned for the last few decades.
And even that "more power than we put into it" comes with a big asterisk. The power being output by the laser is smaller than the power being output by fusion. Big lasers tend to be grossly inefficient things. We'll need at least 10 times the output in order to generate enough to power the laser. That's not even considering the power usage of the facility around it.
So, yeah, we're at least a few years away from enough power for the laser to sustain itself, at least a few more to be able to run the facility and still have net power, and then at least a decade after that to get to commercialization.
Not even a press release, but an FT post. Which is worth less than a press release somehow.
As far as electrification goes, Toyota is virtually at the bottom of the list of car manufacturer . I'll see it when I believe it.
F.U.D. Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. A favorite tactic of IBM, then Microsoft, now Toyota. If you can’t compete, announce an upcoming “breakthrough” so customers will delay purchases from competitors
Truth, these type of announcements are meant to instill a sense if something better is coming if we just wait. It's a honest strategy if there is truly something in the works but right now a lot of misinformation is just making it an bad strategy to use.
Yeah with car manufacturers the usual tactic is 'concept' cars of 'the next model' containing every single thing a consumer could wish for.. which of course never get built.
Pontiac Aztec was the worst ever. The concept was so cool and they claimed almost ready for production. It would have been YUGE! ….. then somehow they released a completely different disaster of a vehicle that is now part of history as one of the worst ever
Wtf is this linked to? A good dozen tries and I can’t pass the captcha? Am I just a sentient robot who is unaware or this a mechanical Turk thing where I’m helping some bot pass l
Just archive.ph?
Here's the original link, post it on archive.ph
https://www.ft.com/content/6224f235-568c-4e2f-8247-e7dacf0ef20c
https://archive.ph/mT0jx
Do you use Cloudflare DNS (1.1.1.1)? They block it because they remove some trackable information from requests.
That's fucking stupid. But yes, I had the same problem, and the article is behind a paywall 😥
Not intentionally, but I’m on iOS which ma becrelevant
Same here - not sure if this is a cloudflare problem, but i've been getting these more and more. I'm on a Mac, I'm pretty darn sure I don't have a virus, so I don't know what's going on.
Never did get to the article, btw.
Someone enlighten me: what is a non-solid-state battery?
One with a fluid electrolyte. That includes current Lithium-Ion and Lithium-Polymer batteries, as well as the older Nickle-Metal Hydride and Lead-Acid batteries.
A lithium-ion battery is composed of cathode, anode, separator and electrolyte. Lithium-ion batteries for smartphones, power tools and EVs uses liquid electrolyte solution. On the other hand, a solid-state battery uses solid electrolyte, not liquid.
https://www.samsungsdi.com/column/technology/detail/56462.html
I was unaware that a lithium battery was liquid.
TIL, thank you, kind Lemmer.
If you puncture one with a nail or something, you can see the liquid drip out... /s
If you can look past the fire and toxic fumes
It's pretty tasty too, but quite spicy
Liquid in the scientific sense, it's more of a paste. Lithium hexafluorophosphate(aka LiFPO) mixed with Dimethyl carbonate or Diethyl carbonate which are just there to float the Lithium between the plates without letting it burst into flame from any humidity that might happen to reach in.
Very interested to see what things look like not when it releases but a few years after.
Not quite the ideal thing to have in a real world car. For example, what happens after a little accident leaves an opening in the hull of such a battery? Or creates some more pressure than needed here and there?
Probably safer than current ev batteries
Not at all.
Why? Solid state batteries don't use a flammable electrolyte
The electrolyte isn't the only flammable material in lithium cells.
No, but it's the difference between solid state and lithium cells. There's still a fire risk with solid state, but then there's a fire risk with ICE. It just needs better engineering like they've done with current ev batteries
That isn't what's being discussed. We're comparing cells to cells, not ICE to BEV.
I know... solid state doesn't have a flammable liquid electrolyte
If it contains energy, there's probably a way to make that energy release in an uncontrolled fashion. As energy densities increase, so does the risk if that happens.
Luckily batteries are built such that it's actually quite hard to ignite them. As are fuel tanks for the same reason.
Cool. That's not the only combustible material in a cell. And since a solid state battery only changes the electrolyte, everything else is unchanged. Meaning they are not significantly safer, because several types of liquid electrolyte aren't flammable. Crucially, this is also a reason why solid state batteries are pointless for the foreseeable future, and only bring negatives to the table.
They are significantly safer. Current li-ion in cars have some very bad failure modes; just puncturing them can release a massive, uncontrollable fire that could potentially keep itself going while fully submerged in water. Now, even those are somewhat overblown--they're pretty well protected in cars--but these problems aren't universal to all lithium chemistries, much less all batteries in general.
Yes, they can catch fire. No, you don't need four fire trucks worth of water tanks to put them out. This matters.
So you're more than a decade behind on LiB tech. Got it. Now it makes sense why you think this boondoggle is even worth discussing.
Other than the massive difference in mileage and reduction in charge time? Sure
Why do you think there are so many manufacturers trying to scale solid state? For fun?
As in solid state has lower range, lower cycle life, and higher cost. Quite an amazing hill to be attempting to defend. lmfao
As for "so many" manufacturers, there aren't many. And they've been working on this research project for two decades. Are you also a proponent of perpetual motion generators because people "have been working on them" for so long? It's long term R&D because you have to hedge your bets. The battery tech itself still sucks.
The potential benefits are enough for Samsung to be building a pilot line. That's an investment, a bet, and there are reasons why:
Higher energy density, which means more power in a smaller size and weight.
Higher safety, as the solid electrolyte is non-flammable and less prone to catch fire.
Shorter charging times, as the solid electrolyte allows faster movement of ions.
A wider range of operating temperatures, as the solid electrolyte is more stable and less affected by heat or cold.
Longer lifespan, as the solid electrolyte reduces the degradation of the electrodes
Wake me when it happens