US never did anything when Israel bombed the USS Liberty (oh and also dropped napalm, torpedos and killed 34 US sailors and destroyed the most advanced naval vessel at the time). So why would anyone stop Israel from bombing a UN run refugee school?
I, for one, support this bombing.
Those dead children didn't condemn Hamas enough before they bled to death.
Or, you know, Hamas could stop hiding in civilian populations. Or even better they could release the remaining hostages and surrender. All deaths here are solely their responsibility.
Hamas could stop hiding in civilian populations.
Is there anything you fools don't gobble up and repeat like a mantra? Do you question anything you hear at all?
Having met many Israelis, no they do not. They (for the most part) swallow the government propaganda hook line and sinker.
Say the people who get their news from Al Jazeera. A Qatari state-owned outlet.
I'm not denying the "other side" isn't equally brainwashed, I was only relaying my experiences.
Surrender and do what? Get genocided like the West Bank?
There is no genocide in the West Bank. What the fuck.
The literal policy of the current ruling coalition in Isreal is to ethnically cleanse Palestinians out of the West Bank with Jewish settlers.
[Citation needed.]
And no, Al Jazeera doesn't count.
Edit: Lol, lot's of downvotes - and not a single person providing proof for a policy of ethnic cleansing that's not coming from a literal anti-Israel propaganda outlet (or even from the propaganda outlet). You guys sure you aren't just being antisemitic? Because you don't seem to have any real ground to stand on.
How about publications like Vox (who in turn refer to publications like the Jerusalem Times and Haretz).
In 2017, Israeli far-right parliamentarian Bezalel Smotrich proposed what he termed a “decisive plan” to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Smotrich, who is now serving as finance minister in Netanyahu’s cabinet, argued (correctly) that the root of the conflict was competing claims to the same land from two distinct national groups. But, unlike his centrist peers, Smotrich claimed that these ambitions were incommensurable: that no territorial compromise could ever be reached between Israelis and Palestinians. In such a zero-sum conflict, one side has to win and the other has to lose.
The key to Israel winning such a total victory, he wrote, is simple: Break the Palestinians’ spirit.
“Terrorism derives from hope — a hope to weaken us,” Smotrich argued. “The statement that the Arab yearning for national expression in the Land of Israel cannot be ‘repressed’ is incorrect.”
Doing this, he continued, begins by annexing the West Bank and rapidly expanding Jewish settlements there. Once Israel has declared its intention to never let that land go, and created realities on the ground that make its withdrawal unimaginable, the Palestinians will reconcile themselves to the new reality — accept a second-class form of citizenship, leave voluntarily, or attempt violent resistance and be crushed.
Smotrich has used his time in Netanyahu’s cabinet to try to implement this plan — working both to de facto annex the West Bank and to rapidly expand Jewish settlement. The result has been the exact opposite of what Smotrich thought would happen: Atrocities by emboldened settler extremists ignited Palestinian anger. Atrocities committed by Palestinians led to settler retaliation, creating an unstable situation requiring a significant redeployment of Israel Defense Forces resources to the West Bank — whose raids themselves became a source of Palestinian grievance.
Why believe Netanyahu's cabinet Ministers when they openly speak of ethnic cleansing and destroying any chance of a Palestinian state?
That's a significantly better source, thank you. But I'm still not seeing genocide. The ramblings of one cabinet minister in a coalition government don't make something government policy. The only thing that Israel is actually doing is expanding its settlements, which is bad because it makes a two-state solution less likely, but it's not genocidal.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
The mask has slipped pal.
Psychopath logic.
What are the chances Israel blew up their own hostages?
No way, they have taped conversation from Hamas operatives admitting culpability.
High. If there were still any alive.
I suspect as a hostage I would prefer a quick death to more weeks or months of Hamas „hospitality“. We have seen what those animals do to people.
Don't know if that goes for all the hostages, but it paints another picture than your assumptions.
And there's video evidence of Hamas dragging mostly undressed women through the streets to be spit on (after doing God knows what to them). Their treatment of hostages seems to be at best uneven.
Wasn't that from the initial assault where they went out of their way to kill innocents? I'm only talking about the hostages here, not the other atrocities.
And I want to make it extremely clear that I don't support neither Hamas not Israel, they are both despicable for attacking civilians.
The only animals in this picture are the Israeli fascists who refuse to stop killing innocent people in the name of self defense.
no they are not. what a psycho pov "you made me do this" wyf
Let's get Hamas to stand in a line and walk into a field about 100ft away from a line of IDF. They can take turns shooting one volley each direction until one side decides to charge.
This is correct... If there are any Palestinians left after this they will all collectively be safer once HAMAS is eradicated.
And despite all of this, the Palestinians are still safer in Israel than they would be in Jordan or Egypt who would have every man, woman, and child seeking refuge shot at the borders.
How dumb do you need to be to think that this is about Hamas? Tell me, how long did you fall for the weapons of mass destruction excuse in Iraq?
Well actually it's HAMAS... And you should research the al muthanna chemical weapons facility.
You mean the facility that was shutdown in 1991 and since then was only used for the destruction of chemical weapons?
Seems like a legit reason to invade a country and kill thousands of people there, 12 years later /s
How did ISIS seize it in 2014 if it was all destroyed?
And why are people still dying when they walk anywhere near it?
True it's not in production but no one is destroying the chemical weapons stored there, frankly it's because they are so incredibly dangerous and in poor condition that they cannot be safely handled. The weapons are still there though, all of the various nerve and blister agents and all of their precursory materials.
It's bizarre you are so smart but don't really know what you are talking about. I know it's incredibly difficult to find truth in our media right now (and frankly it doesn't even matter what political persuasion you subscribe to... They are all full of shit). But still you are buying the narrative hard.
But you should at least take account of first hand knowledge. I was boots on ground in Iraq through the most violent and dangerous times. No we shouldn't have been there, but it's not like the lies about WMDs were farfetched... Saddam had stockpiles of chemical weapons and had already produced proven warheads to deliver chemical weapons on various platforms including their infamous SCUD platform.
not really, i mean not like this. hamas 2.0 will rise from the ashes with the thousands of people being radicalized as we speak by war crimes.
That's fine... And they will be allowed to exist until they murder, rape, behead children, kidnap hostages, and torture people.
Then they have to be eradicated as well...
No apologies for HAMAS.
Then they have to be eradicated as well…
you dont understand how this works right? this means constant terrorism threat for israeli people. how is that smart exactly?
No apologies for HAMAS.
?? what do you mean i didnt see any apologies
What exactly is your point then? You think that HAMAS should be allowed to get away with their crimes because by fighting them it would create a second wave?
I'm sorry but not good enough. HAMAS teaches Palestinian children that their greatest achievements in life is to sacrifice themselves in the great jihad. They wrap children in suicide vests and march them around on TV.
Destroying HAMAS is protecting Palestinians. Collateral loss of life is a tragic cost of war... But the mission here is clear.. destroy HAMAS, do not let them flee to their rat holes. HAMAS will always attempt to maximize civilian casualties. When will they release the hostages they are holding? These aren't prisoners of war... They are civilians, non combatants... Why don't we just start with HAMAS releases the innocent people they have taken hostage?
What exactly is your point then? You think that HAMAS should be allowed to get away with their crimes because by fighting them it would create a second wave?
nope
I’m sorry but not good enough.
brother you are talking to yourself.
Destroying HAMAS is protecting Palestinians.
is it? with random bombing? because right now palestinians are dying and are not getting closer to freedom. Whatever replaces hamas now will have 10x forces which ultimately will hurt israeli and palestinians.
the solution is OBVIOUS, you need to stop the oppression. no different that what happened in south africa. no oppression no reason for people to radicalize.
If you think Israel is randomly bombing buildings you haven't been paying attention.
i put that there on purpose. i KNEW you would only reply to that and ignore the rest.
you are all the same.
Nobody wants Palestinians to die. Not even people who throw bombs on them in hopes that there are hamas members somewhere among the population. They throw their bombs hoping they don't kill anyone, that's very advance wish-based system
It's like you guys are just learning that war is terrible...
People die in wars. Combatants, non-combatants, men, women, children, bystanders, supporters, journalists, doctors, criminals, religious people, atheists.
We don't want war... It's bad.
So if you don't want war, you should conduct massive brutal attacks on civilian populations... Because that's how you get war.
HAMAS did this... They hold their own women and children at gun point inside of buildings they know Israel is about to strike to maximize the propaganda value out of the strike. The Arab nations refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to enter their countries in order to get them out of the conflict areas. Iran has purposefully financed HAMAS in order to allow it to disrupt the Palestinian Government and prevent any real opportunities for real sustainable peace. HAMAS build hospitals and schools with Iranian money... not to provide for the Palestinian people but to ensure they can wrap themselves in human body armor as they build caches and facilitation networks which is 100% in violation of international law and is not just criminal but utterly despicable.
Meanwhile these groups and countries have never been shy at announcing that their only stated goal is the genocidal ethnic cleansing of Israelis and the destruction of the state of Israel.
Who would have thought that all those years ago when Jordan and Egypt decided to take military action against a displaced refugee encampment all of those years ago that we would be at this point.
Or when they did it the second time..
Or the third time...
It's unreal that Egypt and Jordan just abandoned their own people in Israel and refuse to allow them to return to the nations they were originally citizens.
It's like you guys are just learning that war is terrible...
People die in wars. Combatants, non-combatants, men, women, children, bystanders, supporters, journalists, doctors, criminals, religious people, atheists.
We don't want war... It's bad.
So if you don't want war, you should conduct massive brutal attacks on civilian populations... Because that's how you get war.
HAMAS did this... They hold their own women and children at gun point inside of buildings they know Israel is about to strike to maximize the propaganda value out of the strike. The Arab nations refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to enter their countries in order to get them out of the conflict areas. Iran has purposefully financed HAMAS in order to allow it to disrupt the Palestinian Government and prevent any real opportunities for real sustainable peace. HAMAS build hospitals and schools with Iranian money... not to provide for the Palestinian people but to ensure they can wrap themselves in human body armor as they build caches and facilitation networks which is 100% in violation of international law and is not just criminal but utterly despicable.
Meanwhile these groups and countries have never been shy at announcing that their only stated goal is the genocidal ethnic cleansing of Israelis and the destruction of the state of Israel.
Who would have thought that all those years ago when Jordan and Egypt decided to take military action against a displaced refugee encampment all of those years ago that we would be at this point.
Or when they did it the second time..
Or the third time...
It's unreal that Egypt and Jordan just abandoned their own people in Israel and refuse to allow them to return to the nations they were originally citizens.
If you're going to troll, pretending to be an ass to get people to be pro Hamas, you need to mix up your comments a bit. Otherwise it becomes too obvious.
You're welcome.
What a simplistic little view of the world. It would fit nicely for a 15yo, but anyone older than 20 should understand that war is not football. You don't just pick a team, consider them the saviours of the world and demonize the others.
Especially not in a conflict as complicated as this one.
Not everyone who thinks that killing children en masse isn't exactly great is pro Hamas.
Multiple things can be true at the same time:
Hamas is a terror organisation that kills civilians
The Israeli government is killing thousands of civilians, people in the government are openly advocating for dropping nuclear bombs on Gaza and Netanjahu has used scripture to advocate for killing all Palestinians, including children. They are currently starving 2 million civilians down there.
Most Palestinians and Israelis are civilians who mostly just want to live their lives without getting murdered.
There is literally nothing that can justify your support of killing kids. It can be that simplistic.
~1000 Israelis killed since the beginning of the conflict vs 4108 Palestinian Children and 10022 Palestinians total.
Couldn't find a single report about Israeli kids killed by Palestinians in 2023.
Oh, well that justifies being okay with children death. As long as the scales balance, then it's fine. Right?
If you truly cannot have empathy for literal children just because they're on the opposing side of a conflict, then you have forgone your humanity. You are a part of the species that we really need to leave behind, if we're ever to prevent future, ridiculous, conflicts like this.
I think you misstook me. Please read my comment two up.
Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government are justified. They are both monsters that would erradicate the other side if they wheren't held by their DIY weapons and the international community respectively.
If Israel wouldn't care about their position in geopolitics, they'd have nuked Gaza a long time ago, and the West Bank as well.
If Hamas had access to better weapons than glorified fireworks, guns from the 50s and diggers, they would have also erradicated Israel by now.
And no, one party's violence does never justify attacking civilians and among them children.
The people caught in the cross fire are civilians and among them very many children.
Oh, sorry, I thought you were three original idiot I replied to say the start. The one that said he was fine with kids dying because they didn't protest enough.
That makes sense then. I think/hope, the comment you referred to was sarcasm. But you never know, some people write crazy stuff like that unironically.
Waiting to see how the "the price of war" crowd is going to justify this one.
At some point, I don't think they'll even try to hide it.
"We killed them for revenge. Plain and simple."
Israel bombs terrorist hideout/rocket launchers/… below/next to UN school in third major attack on Hamas hiding behind civilian infrastructure in Jabalia city
ftfy
You know that bombing schools and hospitals is STILL a heinous war crime even IF (gigantic if) it's true that Hamas is hiding under every single one of them like you genocide apologists keep claiming, right?
Both sides here 100% want to genocide the other. They will both continue to try to do so, they're leadership has said exactly that. Is it just to blame Israel just for winning?
Massacring civilians to accomplish nothing except temporarily sating blood lust isn't winning. Not when Hamas does it and not when Israeli forces do it.
Besides, it's not like Hamas has anything near a thousandth of the military power that Israel does. As the stronger of the parties and the ones who make all the rules, they bear the majority of the responsibility and thus the majority of the blame.
They are taking that responsibility, and using it to ensure a permanent end to the conflict. It's the same thing Palestine would do if they could.
They are taking that responsibility, and using it to ensure a permanent end to the conflict.
If you truly believe that, I have oceanfront property in Lichtenstein to sell you 🙄
They're at least doing their best.
It's adorable that you think so but no, they're not. They're making everything worse.
Most things get worse before they get better. Once Palestine is gone, there won't be a conflict anymore. At least not an Israel / Palestine conflict.
And yes, this is horrible. Palestine wants the same for Israel. It's all horrible. There can't be peace there, it's impossible. There can only be a winner.
No. Even IF that's true (again, enormous if), the war crime is definitely the bombing of civilians, not hiding from people who want to kill you. I'm not saying that the Hamas aren't heinous terrorists, but that doesn't excuse the wholesale slaughter of innocents.
Especially since it only INCREASES hostilities, leading to more civilian deaths on both sides of the border.
Um, you're wrong, it's known as Perfidy and is a violation of Protocol 1 Article 37 of the Geneva Convention
It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy. Acts inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict, with intent to betray that confidence, shall constitute perfidy. The following acts are examples of perfidy:
(a) The feigning of an intent to negotiate under a flag of truce or of a surrender;
(b) The feigning of an incapacitation by wounds or sickness;
(c) The feigning of civilian, non-combatant status; and
(d) The feigning of protected status by the use of signs, emblems or uniforms of the United Nations or of neutral or other States not Parties to the conflict.
That's not what they're doing, though. And even if they were, that would still NOT excuse the war crimes of the IDF.
This response is the equivalent of a child saying nuh uh and walking off. Also, no one said that it did excuse the war crimes committed by the IDF. The problem I have is that you're clearly misrepresenting Hamas as innocent.
This response is the equivalent of a child saying nuh uh and walking off.
You want me to elaborate about how false what you're saying is? Walking off rather than continuing to waste my time and effort on the likes of you sounds tempting, though.
Also, no one said that it did excuse the war crimes committed by the IDF
That's not true. You heavily implied as much and the other apartheid defender flat out said so.
The problem I have is that you're clearly misrepresenting Hamas as innocent.
I'm doing no such thing. I'm always clear about the fact that Hamas are heinous terrorists guilty of atrocities.
That doesn't justify any of IDF's atrocities like you're pretending that you're not implying, though.
Hiding isn't a war crime. Trying to blend in with a civilian population while you're an active combatant, however, is. Precisely because it makes strikes with mass civilian casualties a military necessity.
First of all, no it isn't. Second of all, nobody's forcing the IDF to go through with the bombings anyway, sacrificing thousands of civilians while gaining nothing but the potential deaths of a few replaceable terrorists.
Oddly enough it's not a war crime to attack a military target that is using a civilian population as cover. The military action has to use the principle of proportionality to limit risks to civilians, but doesn't ban the attack. Attacking such a site would only be a war crime if there is no valid military target.
The use of a civilian population as soft cover (as in not actively being human shields, but not getting out of the way) could be a war crime depending on the amount of obfuscation the hiding party is using. In the instance of Hamas they built their bases directly under hospitals so I'd say that meets the bar for war crimes.
Also, the current news is that Hamas is blocking evacuations from this region. So that moves it from soft human shields to forced human shields.
it's not a war crime to attack a military target that is using a civilian population as cover
It absolutely 100% is.
The military action has to use the principle of proportionality
Which Israel doesn't do either, not even close
Attacking such a site would only be a war crime if there is no valid military target.
Which we only have the word of a notoriously dishonest government that there always is
Also, the current news is that Hamas is blocking evacuations from this region. So that moves it from soft human shields to forced human shields.
You mean like when Israel told Palestinians to go somewhere and then bombed them as they complied?
You can try all the whataboutism you'd like to excuse the atrocities of the apartheid regime but, apart from the fact that the atrocities of Hamas doesn't justify any of those of Israel, most of the time the IDF have done the same thing (including for example using human shields) or something even worse.
It absolutely 100% is.
The Geneva Convention disagrees:
"Geneva Convention IV: Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: 'The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.'"
"Additional Protocol I: Article 51(7) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations"
Which Israel doesn’t do either, not even close
That's not true, obviously Israel is using the principal of proportionality or else they would have just leveled the entire place. Whether this constitutes a war crime would be if their level of response was appropriate enough, that's why people say it "may" constitute a war crime. The truth is that this is a subjective argument that would need to be determined in an international court of law to be certain of.
Which we only have the word of a notoriously dishonest government that there always is
You mean like when Israel told Palestinians to go somewhere and then bombed them as they complied?
Maybe you should actually check the news, Hamas leadership has been telling it's people to stay and, while you don't believe the IDF, they have satellite and surveillance footage of vehicles and barricades to block travel in Gaza. Also, reporters inside of Gaza are reporting that Hamas is shooting evacuating people.
You can try all the whataboutism you’d like to excuse the atrocities of the apartheid regime but, apart from the fact that the atrocities of Hamas doesn’t justify any of those of Israel, most of the time the IDF have done the same thing (including for example using human shields) or something even worse.
I've not tried to excuse any atrocities, I'm clearly pointing out that the term "War Crime" has a specific meaning of which you have twice incorrectly used. Throughout our discussions I have used a number of reasonable sources and references. It funny you accuse me of an argument I haven't made and for using whataboutisms, but the only whataboutisms have come from your own post. I don't like what the IDF is doing either, but you can't call things war crimes that would literally take a prolonged international league case to determine (principle of proportionality). Likewise when something is very clearly defined as a war crime, you can't say that it isn't (perfidy). Also, it's a really poor argument to say that sources (albeit biased) are illegitimate because they came from Israel (I showed that an outside entity and the Palestinian Health Ministry backed up the IDFs claims a decade earlier).
Aaand we've reached the point where you repeat bullshit I've already refuted and insist that two war crimes would make a justified military action. We're done here, genocide apologist.
1.) Presented with sources, definitions, and a fairly detailed description of war crimes.
2.) Presented with third party sources about claims.
3.) Clearly told that the person they are arguing with doesn't support the IDF
4.) Uses strawman attacks on the person they are arguing with
5.) Provides no real source, argument, or rebutall
6.) Says they refuted my argument
7.) Puts words in my mouth
8.) Calls me a genocide apologist when I clearly am not
US never did anything when Israel bombed the USS Liberty (oh and also dropped napalm, torpedos and killed 34 US sailors and destroyed the most advanced naval vessel at the time). So why would anyone stop Israel from bombing a UN run refugee school?
I, for one, support this bombing.
Those dead children didn't condemn Hamas enough before they bled to death.
Or, you know, Hamas could stop hiding in civilian populations. Or even better they could release the remaining hostages and surrender. All deaths here are solely their responsibility.
Is there anything you fools don't gobble up and repeat like a mantra? Do you question anything you hear at all?
Having met many Israelis, no they do not. They (for the most part) swallow the government propaganda hook line and sinker.
Say the people who get their news from Al Jazeera. A Qatari state-owned outlet.
I'm not denying the "other side" isn't equally brainwashed, I was only relaying my experiences.
Did you seriously just claim there are no tunnels below civilians' or public property?
quesTion EverYthIng
Surrender and do what? Get genocided like the West Bank?
There is no genocide in the West Bank. What the fuck.
The literal policy of the current ruling coalition in Isreal is to ethnically cleanse Palestinians out of the West Bank with Jewish settlers.
[Citation needed.]
And no, Al Jazeera doesn't count.
Edit: Lol, lot's of downvotes - and not a single person providing proof for a policy of ethnic cleansing that's not coming from a literal anti-Israel propaganda outlet (or even from the propaganda outlet). You guys sure you aren't just being antisemitic? Because you don't seem to have any real ground to stand on.
How about publications like Vox (who in turn refer to publications like the Jerusalem Times and Haretz).
Must be anti-Isreal propaganda as well.
https://www.vox.com/23910085/netanyahu-israel-right-hamas-gaza-war-history
Why believe Netanyahu's cabinet Ministers when they openly speak of ethnic cleansing and destroying any chance of a Palestinian state?
That's a significantly better source, thank you. But I'm still not seeing genocide. The ramblings of one cabinet minister in a coalition government don't make something government policy. The only thing that Israel is actually doing is expanding its settlements, which is bad because it makes a two-state solution less likely, but it's not genocidal.
There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
The mask has slipped pal.
Psychopath logic.
What are the chances Israel blew up their own hostages?
No way, they have taped conversation from Hamas operatives admitting culpability.
High. If there were still any alive. I suspect as a hostage I would prefer a quick death to more weeks or months of Hamas „hospitality“. We have seen what those animals do to people.
Well, the two elderly ladies that were released said that they were treated very humanely. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hostage-released-hamas-yochaved-lifshitz-gaza-palestinians/
Don't know if that goes for all the hostages, but it paints another picture than your assumptions.
And there's video evidence of Hamas dragging mostly undressed women through the streets to be spit on (after doing God knows what to them). Their treatment of hostages seems to be at best uneven.
Wasn't that from the initial assault where they went out of their way to kill innocents? I'm only talking about the hostages here, not the other atrocities. And I want to make it extremely clear that I don't support neither Hamas not Israel, they are both despicable for attacking civilians.
The only animals in this picture are the Israeli fascists who refuse to stop killing innocent people in the name of self defense.
no they are not. what a psycho pov "you made me do this" wyf
Let's get Hamas to stand in a line and walk into a field about 100ft away from a line of IDF. They can take turns shooting one volley each direction until one side decides to charge.
This is correct... If there are any Palestinians left after this they will all collectively be safer once HAMAS is eradicated.
And despite all of this, the Palestinians are still safer in Israel than they would be in Jordan or Egypt who would have every man, woman, and child seeking refuge shot at the borders.
How dumb do you need to be to think that this is about Hamas? Tell me, how long did you fall for the weapons of mass destruction excuse in Iraq?
Well actually it's HAMAS... And you should research the al muthanna chemical weapons facility.
You mean the facility that was shutdown in 1991 and since then was only used for the destruction of chemical weapons?
Seems like a legit reason to invade a country and kill thousands of people there, 12 years later /s
How did ISIS seize it in 2014 if it was all destroyed?
And why are people still dying when they walk anywhere near it?
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/10/14/world/middleeast/us-casualties-of-iraq-chemical-weapons.html
True it's not in production but no one is destroying the chemical weapons stored there, frankly it's because they are so incredibly dangerous and in poor condition that they cannot be safely handled. The weapons are still there though, all of the various nerve and blister agents and all of their precursory materials.
It's bizarre you are so smart but don't really know what you are talking about. I know it's incredibly difficult to find truth in our media right now (and frankly it doesn't even matter what political persuasion you subscribe to... They are all full of shit). But still you are buying the narrative hard.
But you should at least take account of first hand knowledge. I was boots on ground in Iraq through the most violent and dangerous times. No we shouldn't have been there, but it's not like the lies about WMDs were farfetched... Saddam had stockpiles of chemical weapons and had already produced proven warheads to deliver chemical weapons on various platforms including their infamous SCUD platform.
So ethnically cleanse Palestine. That's the Zionist wet dream.
Nobody wants Palestinians to die. They are in an impossible situation. But HAMAS has to be destroyed.
I don't understand what you are missing here.
'Nobody wants Palestinians to die"
Citation needed.
not really, i mean not like this. hamas 2.0 will rise from the ashes with the thousands of people being radicalized as we speak by war crimes.
That's fine... And they will be allowed to exist until they murder, rape, behead children, kidnap hostages, and torture people.
Then they have to be eradicated as well...
No apologies for HAMAS.
you dont understand how this works right? this means constant terrorism threat for israeli people. how is that smart exactly?
?? what do you mean i didnt see any apologies
What exactly is your point then? You think that HAMAS should be allowed to get away with their crimes because by fighting them it would create a second wave?
I'm sorry but not good enough. HAMAS teaches Palestinian children that their greatest achievements in life is to sacrifice themselves in the great jihad. They wrap children in suicide vests and march them around on TV.
Destroying HAMAS is protecting Palestinians. Collateral loss of life is a tragic cost of war... But the mission here is clear.. destroy HAMAS, do not let them flee to their rat holes. HAMAS will always attempt to maximize civilian casualties. When will they release the hostages they are holding? These aren't prisoners of war... They are civilians, non combatants... Why don't we just start with HAMAS releases the innocent people they have taken hostage?
nope
brother you are talking to yourself.
is it? with random bombing? because right now palestinians are dying and are not getting closer to freedom. Whatever replaces hamas now will have 10x forces which ultimately will hurt israeli and palestinians.
the solution is OBVIOUS, you need to stop the oppression. no different that what happened in south africa. no oppression no reason for people to radicalize.
If you think Israel is randomly bombing buildings you haven't been paying attention.
i put that there on purpose. i KNEW you would only reply to that and ignore the rest.
you are all the same.
Nobody wants Palestinians to die. Not even people who throw bombs on them in hopes that there are hamas members somewhere among the population. They throw their bombs hoping they don't kill anyone, that's very advance wish-based system
It's like you guys are just learning that war is terrible...
People die in wars. Combatants, non-combatants, men, women, children, bystanders, supporters, journalists, doctors, criminals, religious people, atheists.
We don't want war... It's bad.
So if you don't want war, you should conduct massive brutal attacks on civilian populations... Because that's how you get war.
HAMAS did this... They hold their own women and children at gun point inside of buildings they know Israel is about to strike to maximize the propaganda value out of the strike. The Arab nations refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to enter their countries in order to get them out of the conflict areas. Iran has purposefully financed HAMAS in order to allow it to disrupt the Palestinian Government and prevent any real opportunities for real sustainable peace. HAMAS build hospitals and schools with Iranian money... not to provide for the Palestinian people but to ensure they can wrap themselves in human body armor as they build caches and facilitation networks which is 100% in violation of international law and is not just criminal but utterly despicable.
Meanwhile these groups and countries have never been shy at announcing that their only stated goal is the genocidal ethnic cleansing of Israelis and the destruction of the state of Israel.
Who would have thought that all those years ago when Jordan and Egypt decided to take military action against a displaced refugee encampment all of those years ago that we would be at this point.
Or when they did it the second time..
Or the third time...
It's unreal that Egypt and Jordan just abandoned their own people in Israel and refuse to allow them to return to the nations they were originally citizens.
It's like you guys are just learning that war is terrible...
People die in wars. Combatants, non-combatants, men, women, children, bystanders, supporters, journalists, doctors, criminals, religious people, atheists.
We don't want war... It's bad.
So if you don't want war, you should conduct massive brutal attacks on civilian populations... Because that's how you get war.
HAMAS did this... They hold their own women and children at gun point inside of buildings they know Israel is about to strike to maximize the propaganda value out of the strike. The Arab nations refuse to allow Palestinian refugees to enter their countries in order to get them out of the conflict areas. Iran has purposefully financed HAMAS in order to allow it to disrupt the Palestinian Government and prevent any real opportunities for real sustainable peace. HAMAS build hospitals and schools with Iranian money... not to provide for the Palestinian people but to ensure they can wrap themselves in human body armor as they build caches and facilitation networks which is 100% in violation of international law and is not just criminal but utterly despicable.
Meanwhile these groups and countries have never been shy at announcing that their only stated goal is the genocidal ethnic cleansing of Israelis and the destruction of the state of Israel.
Who would have thought that all those years ago when Jordan and Egypt decided to take military action against a displaced refugee encampment all of those years ago that we would be at this point.
Or when they did it the second time..
Or the third time...
It's unreal that Egypt and Jordan just abandoned their own people in Israel and refuse to allow them to return to the nations they were originally citizens.
I'm convinced. Israel is going to get exactly what it deserves.
Except they don't shoot them at the borders do they.
That was the Israelis, telling them to leave, then bombing them as they left.
If you're going to troll, pretending to be an ass to get people to be pro Hamas, you need to mix up your comments a bit. Otherwise it becomes too obvious.
You're welcome.
What a simplistic little view of the world. It would fit nicely for a 15yo, but anyone older than 20 should understand that war is not football. You don't just pick a team, consider them the saviours of the world and demonize the others.
Especially not in a conflict as complicated as this one.
Not everyone who thinks that killing children en masse isn't exactly great is pro Hamas.
Multiple things can be true at the same time:
There is literally nothing that can justify your support of killing kids. It can be that simplistic.
~1000 Israelis killed since the beginning of the conflict vs 4108 Palestinian Children and 10022 Palestinians total.
Source: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/middleeast/palestinian-israeli-deaths-gaza-dg/index.html
Couldn't find a single report about Israeli kids killed by Palestinians in 2023.
Oh, well that justifies being okay with children death. As long as the scales balance, then it's fine. Right?
If you truly cannot have empathy for literal children just because they're on the opposing side of a conflict, then you have forgone your humanity. You are a part of the species that we really need to leave behind, if we're ever to prevent future, ridiculous, conflicts like this.
I think you misstook me. Please read my comment two up.
Neither Hamas nor the Israeli government are justified. They are both monsters that would erradicate the other side if they wheren't held by their DIY weapons and the international community respectively.
If Israel wouldn't care about their position in geopolitics, they'd have nuked Gaza a long time ago, and the West Bank as well.
If Hamas had access to better weapons than glorified fireworks, guns from the 50s and diggers, they would have also erradicated Israel by now.
And no, one party's violence does never justify attacking civilians and among them children.
The people caught in the cross fire are civilians and among them very many children.
Oh, sorry, I thought you were three original idiot I replied to say the start. The one that said he was fine with kids dying because they didn't protest enough.
That makes sense then. I think/hope, the comment you referred to was sarcasm. But you never know, some people write crazy stuff like that unironically.
Waiting to see how the "the price of war" crowd is going to justify this one.
At some point, I don't think they'll even try to hide it.
"We killed them for revenge. Plain and simple."
Israel bombs terrorist hideout/rocket launchers/… below/next to UN school in third major attack on Hamas hiding behind civilian infrastructure in Jabalia city
ftfy
You know that bombing schools and hospitals is STILL a heinous war crime even IF (gigantic if) it's true that Hamas is hiding under every single one of them like you genocide apologists keep claiming, right?
Both sides here 100% want to genocide the other. They will both continue to try to do so, they're leadership has said exactly that. Is it just to blame Israel just for winning?
Massacring civilians to accomplish nothing except temporarily sating blood lust isn't winning. Not when Hamas does it and not when Israeli forces do it.
Besides, it's not like Hamas has anything near a thousandth of the military power that Israel does. As the stronger of the parties and the ones who make all the rules, they bear the majority of the responsibility and thus the majority of the blame.
They are taking that responsibility, and using it to ensure a permanent end to the conflict. It's the same thing Palestine would do if they could.
If you truly believe that, I have oceanfront property in Lichtenstein to sell you 🙄
They're at least doing their best.
It's adorable that you think so but no, they're not. They're making everything worse.
Most things get worse before they get better. Once Palestine is gone, there won't be a conflict anymore. At least not an Israel / Palestine conflict.
And yes, this is horrible. Palestine wants the same for Israel. It's all horrible. There can't be peace there, it's impossible. There can only be a winner.
The war crime is hiding there in the first place.
No. Even IF that's true (again, enormous if), the war crime is definitely the bombing of civilians, not hiding from people who want to kill you. I'm not saying that the Hamas aren't heinous terrorists, but that doesn't excuse the wholesale slaughter of innocents.
Especially since it only INCREASES hostilities, leading to more civilian deaths on both sides of the border.
Um, you're wrong, it's known as Perfidy and is a violation of Protocol 1 Article 37 of the Geneva Convention
That's not what they're doing, though. And even if they were, that would still NOT excuse the war crimes of the IDF.
This response is the equivalent of a child saying nuh uh and walking off. Also, no one said that it did excuse the war crimes committed by the IDF. The problem I have is that you're clearly misrepresenting Hamas as innocent.
You want me to elaborate about how false what you're saying is? Walking off rather than continuing to waste my time and effort on the likes of you sounds tempting, though.
That's not true. You heavily implied as much and the other apartheid defender flat out said so.
I'm doing no such thing. I'm always clear about the fact that Hamas are heinous terrorists guilty of atrocities.
That doesn't justify any of IDF's atrocities like you're pretending that you're not implying, though.
Hiding isn't a war crime. Trying to blend in with a civilian population while you're an active combatant, however, is. Precisely because it makes strikes with mass civilian casualties a military necessity.
First of all, no it isn't. Second of all, nobody's forcing the IDF to go through with the bombings anyway, sacrificing thousands of civilians while gaining nothing but the potential deaths of a few replaceable terrorists.
Oddly enough it's not a war crime to attack a military target that is using a civilian population as cover. The military action has to use the principle of proportionality to limit risks to civilians, but doesn't ban the attack. Attacking such a site would only be a war crime if there is no valid military target.
The use of a civilian population as soft cover (as in not actively being human shields, but not getting out of the way) could be a war crime depending on the amount of obfuscation the hiding party is using. In the instance of Hamas they built their bases directly under hospitals so I'd say that meets the bar for war crimes.
Also, the current news is that Hamas is blocking evacuations from this region. So that moves it from soft human shields to forced human shields.
It absolutely 100% is.
Which Israel doesn't do either, not even close
Which we only have the word of a notoriously dishonest government that there always is
You mean like when Israel told Palestinians to go somewhere and then bombed them as they complied?
You can try all the whataboutism you'd like to excuse the atrocities of the apartheid regime but, apart from the fact that the atrocities of Hamas doesn't justify any of those of Israel, most of the time the IDF have done the same thing (including for example using human shields) or something even worse.
The Geneva Convention disagrees: "Geneva Convention IV: Article 28 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: 'The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.'"
"Additional Protocol I: Article 51(7) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides: The presence or movements of the civilian population or individual civilians shall not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations, in particular in attempts to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield, favour or impede military operations. The Parties to the conflict shall not direct the movement of the civilian population or individual civilians in order to attempt to shield military objectives from attacks or to shield military operations"
That's not true, obviously Israel is using the principal of proportionality or else they would have just leveled the entire place. Whether this constitutes a war crime would be if their level of response was appropriate enough, that's why people say it "may" constitute a war crime. The truth is that this is a subjective argument that would need to be determined in an international court of law to be certain of.
Amnesty International reported the same in 2014 (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2015/05/gaza-palestinians-tortured-summarily-killed-by-hamas-forces-during-2014-conflict/) and the Palestinian Health Ministry in 2009 (www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3668018,00.html).
Maybe you should actually check the news, Hamas leadership has been telling it's people to stay and, while you don't believe the IDF, they have satellite and surveillance footage of vehicles and barricades to block travel in Gaza. Also, reporters inside of Gaza are reporting that Hamas is shooting evacuating people.
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryjyna7qa
I've not tried to excuse any atrocities, I'm clearly pointing out that the term "War Crime" has a specific meaning of which you have twice incorrectly used. Throughout our discussions I have used a number of reasonable sources and references. It funny you accuse me of an argument I haven't made and for using whataboutisms, but the only whataboutisms have come from your own post. I don't like what the IDF is doing either, but you can't call things war crimes that would literally take a prolonged international league case to determine (principle of proportionality). Likewise when something is very clearly defined as a war crime, you can't say that it isn't (perfidy). Also, it's a really poor argument to say that sources (albeit biased) are illegitimate because they came from Israel (I showed that an outside entity and the Palestinian Health Ministry backed up the IDFs claims a decade earlier).
Aaand we've reached the point where you repeat bullshit I've already refuted and insist that two war crimes would make a justified military action. We're done here, genocide apologist.
1.) Presented with sources, definitions, and a fairly detailed description of war crimes.
2.) Presented with third party sources about claims.
3.) Clearly told that the person they are arguing with doesn't support the IDF
4.) Uses strawman attacks on the person they are arguing with
5.) Provides no real source, argument, or rebutall
6.) Says they refuted my argument
7.) Puts words in my mouth
8.) Calls me a genocide apologist when I clearly am not
You're clearly a troll and I'm done feeding you
Two things can be war crimes.
Try harder Hasbara
I guess we know where the average lemmy user lays on the 'a war crime is a war crime - regardless of how your EVIL CORP pr department spins it.