I really despise this kind of both sidesism. Because the sides are demonstrably different.
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. From an European perspective you do basically only have one party. It ranges from quite a bit to the right to the right extreme. You don't get to choose through elections - the two wings of the party decide whom you get to choose from. That's not to dissimilar to the system in obvious dictatorships like Iran, where the candiates are pre-selected by the powers that be.
Obviously voting for the quite a bit to the right neoliberals is less bad than voting for the extreme right fascists. That goes without saying. But don't pretend like there is a real choice here.
From a perspective ignorant to the competing factions within our parties and their influence, I understand. However, I'm not going to pretend it's an accurate or useful perspective.
I had a similar discussion with a Chinese person criticising their ruling party.
From a perspective ignorant to the competing factions within our parties and their influence, I understand.
This is almost exactly the same thing they said.
I'm not trying to put down the USA. I'm trying to make people aware that improvement is needed and that their democracy isn't as democratic as it should be, or as they might think it to be.
That's the beautiful part. I don't blame CCP members doing their best to make things better in a shitty system. We must all do what we can to improve things for everyone with the hand we're dealt. That's all we can ever do and all we can ask of each other.
There are things worse about the American system than China's, but the ability to criticize our government means there's more we can do to organize ourselves and undermine the popularity of plutocrats. Our system sucks, but I can't stand people who take that as a reason to sit at home doing nothing.
Before I went further and further left, I’d agree that both sides are different, since I could easily see where they were different.
The further left I got, the more similar they looked, since the left wing and right wing of the tiny american overton window is not far apart at all, to the point you could possibly call them different wings of the same party.
Sure, that comparison has fallen apart with American fascism entering the mainstream, and for people wedged by the anti-lgbt republicans the differences are very obvious and simple. Even for a radical leftist like myself, there is an obvious better party, but I feel like my hand is forced. I’m voting for a party that doesn’t support my views (other than some social issues) solely because the alternative is fascism, and that’s a shitty feeling.
Unfortunately, people who have no representation within the US politics, notably leftists, see that both parties have the same views on most issues they truly care about. For example, someone who wants the repeal of the patriot act will notice that both parties support it (even though there are some democrats dissenting). Someone who wants real climate protections will be disappointed to notice that the changes supported by the democrats is not going to do much, if anything at all. Granted, they don’t support the rolling back of protections. God forbid you are a socialist and see the most socialist person in congress is Sanders. Even worse if you are an anarchist and see that everyone (or at least everyone I know of) is pro big-government (especially the so called libertarians). I could go on with police reform/abolition, indigenous rights, prison reform/abolition, healthcare, military policy, Palestine, and others.
The privileged perspective of those that don't have their rights controlled by politics.
Yeah, Missouri republicans tried to make it illegal to get trans related healthcare even as an adult if you had autism. But sure both sides are the same. I guess from their ivory bunker.
Yeah, shit like this is a big part of why I haven't sought diagnosis or help for my autism or gender shit even though they're ruining my fucking life. Hahahahahahahelpme
On the other hand, China.
everyone's rights are controlled by politics
Lol sure, but wealthy straight cis white men have always had full right to marry, arms, or vote. Every other group of people has had to argue for those freedoms, while others are considered the "default person".
Do trans people vote for someone that will allow them Healthcare or the one calling their existance pedophilia? That's not a choice, but it's a position many trans people are uniquely in. Just as black Americans had to argue for their freedom, to vote, to self protection. Just as women have to vote and own property. Just as queer folk have to marry.
Indifference to these situations means you're rights are so taken for granted that they will never be stripped away, so you are afforded the luxury of swing both parties the same
This is so far removed from the current political context that it's like comparing apples and oranges to apples and stones.
Or more acutely, a brain and a steaming smooth pile of shit that the republicans choose to use instead.
Okay but which side is chanting "kill f*ggots, kill all transgenders" at the rally?
The democrat side is objectively worse. You have to walk to the opposite side of the well to reach the handle. What did the artist mean by this?
Nah, it's good planning. While you stand there turning the handle, you have an excellent view of the town and all that's going on. On the Republican side, you have to work with your back to all that's going on, with little to look at but the fence
Bothe sydes badde
This but unironically, as a european I can't imagine having only two choices on such an enormously important choice for a democracy
I hope when the fascists rise in your country you recognize that liberals are indescribably better than the least evil fascist. If Trump wins, I'm dead, voting is dead, and leftists will be the first against the wall. If Biden wins, the presidency remains only a small part of the equation.
Elections for representatives are often more consequential than having a more progressive president. State races are more obviously important thanks to issues like abortion, but they've always mattered. Some states even have a certain degree of direct democracy. Whether one should vote against a fascist dictator shouldn't even be a conversation. We really should discuss the rest of the ballot and how we can get active in our community, but noooo. We have to talk about what should be the easiest fucking choice in our lives.
I hope when the fascists rise in your country you [...]
Sanest US policy wonk.
I don't know even know of a well informed, good faith position, left or right, where one would deny that Republicans are fascists. Some foolish leftists might say that all capitalists are fascists, but they still recognize Republicans as basically Nazis. Some fascists might argue they aren't fascists, but if you actually fall for that, you're dumber than dirt. A brain smoother than a mirror and smaller than a pea.
[Comment on electoral diversity]
[Fascism rant]
[Comment on insanity of fascism rant]
[Fascism rant]
Sanest US policy wonk.
If I'm reading between the lines right, I think their issue is that they're objecting to the notion of there being two parties to choose from. In their eyes there's only one choice, as the other is undesirable. Which if anything supports your point (possibly unintentionally).
That said responding to a comment on electoral diversity with talk about getting shot next to a wall is unhinged.
Their issue is that US politics gives you brainworms. "I voted for Kodos" was already a joke in 1996, and as the argument gets less and less convincing the advocacy will get more and more unhinged.
I'm vaguely reminded about a comment I read about the poorest Americans voting for tax cuts and against welfare: The argument is that they were so immiserated that they're grasping for any straw offered; And if you try and get them to stop and think about what they're doing, they start ranting at you, because they don't have time for debate and game theory, they're barely threading water as is, they need help now.
It's absurdly ironic that you liken my "rant about fascism" to poor Americans refusing to question their vote "for tax cuts and against welfare." In the situation that your enlightened ass vaguely remembers, those poor Americans didn't vote directly for those policies that go against their self interest; they voted for the worse candidate out of the two options they had.
If the you view both parties as equally bad and voting for the better candidate as foolish, then those poor Americans couldn't have actually voted in their best interests in the other situation. You argue that some Americans simultaneously vote for the worse choice, and that they don't have a worse or better choice. Which is it? Are Democrats and Republicans equally evil aliens that will enslave humanity, or is one worse than the other?
You act like I'm unhinged and have brain worms for talking about fascism in the US, yet you cherry pick what sounds right from incompatible arguments to inform your worldview. You start from your existing opinion and Frankenstein facts together to argue for it. If I had to guess, you're tired of hearing about American politics and think it's simpler than it actually is. Maybe you're cynical and think it's all just a waste of time, but remain willfully ignorant about the serious consequences of our elections because it might make you feel guilty for promoting apathy.
I'm not talking in general hypotheticals, The comment was made under a vox populi segment, where a woman wanted to "end welfare" so the government would have more money for "her food stamps". And when the interviewer told her those are the same thing, she went into a rant about how she's not letting welfare queens get her money when she can't afford to feed her kids. In other words, she was so panicked and desperate she was unable to see the bigger picture, and reacted with hostility. The parallel is kinda stark. The start of this thread was "honestly, both choices are bad, Americans should have a better option" and your response was to rant about people against the wall.
I am not arguing both parties are equally bad. I am not saying voting is foolish. I made no argument about voting. I am not the having that conversation with you,your brainworms are. You are now on comment 3, and you still think I'm talking about the 2024 election. I'm not. I, and hopefully the rest of non-Americans in this thread, are making a broader point about the overall trajectory of US politics, which is that it's not looking good.
Consider, for example: Why do the evil aliens have to be the same? Why can't one of the evil aliens be worse than the other? Maybe Kang instituted a 4-day workweek. Maybe Kang offered free healthcare. Maybe Kang is vegan, and Kodos eats kids. In this case, it would be entirely justified to vote for Kang, since he is by far the better option compared to Kodos. But the joke would still work, unchanged, because the setup for the punchline is "why are we building a death ray?". I act like you're unhinged because you answer "Why the death ray?" with "Kodos is a fascist!".
If the death ray is the two party system, then some members from one party support plans to dismantle the death ray, while the other party wants to build something even worse than the death ray. If the death ray is shitty things both parties agree on in general, they usually have a solid majority of the population in support of the death ray. However, even explaining this to you is more of a response than you deserve.
You called me a wonk with brainworms for calling fascists what they are, ignoring everything I said after that about shifting the narrative to more important topics. I even explained how identifying fascists isn't unhinged, yet you doubled down because you never actually cared about good faith discussion. It's too late to walk back to a reasonable position when you made it obvious that you think taking politics seriously is stupid.
"There's no shark in the water. Open the beaches so you don't ruin the 4th of July weekend Brody. Quit being alarmist. It's not like that many people will die anyways."
Few things are more pathetic than lazy slimeballs like you, smug in their apathy.
I don't want to take away your food stamps. That's the worms talking again.
Because there's no PR, anyone who wants to be effective has to join one of the parties. Because of that, diversity in each party is way higher than you see in places that use party list PR.
For example, the Democrats have both Alrxandria Ocasio Cortez, who describes herself as a democratic socialist, and Joe Manchin, a fairly conservative former coal exec from West Virginia.
The real interesting bit of American elections tends to be the primaries, where all the voters registered with a party vote on who their candidate should be. Alexandria Ocasio Cortez got elected because she defeated the incumbent Democrat in the primary.
In 2020, everyone from Bernie Sanders to billionaire Michael Bloomberg ran in the Democratic primary. There was some real choice there until Biden won and it became just Trump vs Biden.
I really despise this kind of both sidesism. Because the sides are demonstrably different.
I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. From an European perspective you do basically only have one party. It ranges from quite a bit to the right to the right extreme. You don't get to choose through elections - the two wings of the party decide whom you get to choose from. That's not to dissimilar to the system in obvious dictatorships like Iran, where the candiates are pre-selected by the powers that be.
Obviously voting for the quite a bit to the right neoliberals is less bad than voting for the extreme right fascists. That goes without saying. But don't pretend like there is a real choice here.
From a perspective ignorant to the competing factions within our parties and their influence, I understand. However, I'm not going to pretend it's an accurate or useful perspective.
I had a similar discussion with a Chinese person criticising their ruling party.
This is almost exactly the same thing they said.
I'm not trying to put down the USA. I'm trying to make people aware that improvement is needed and that their democracy isn't as democratic as it should be, or as they might think it to be.
That's the beautiful part. I don't blame CCP members doing their best to make things better in a shitty system. We must all do what we can to improve things for everyone with the hand we're dealt. That's all we can ever do and all we can ask of each other.
There are things worse about the American system than China's, but the ability to criticize our government means there's more we can do to organize ourselves and undermine the popularity of plutocrats. Our system sucks, but I can't stand people who take that as a reason to sit at home doing nothing.
Before I went further and further left, I’d agree that both sides are different, since I could easily see where they were different.
The further left I got, the more similar they looked, since the left wing and right wing of the tiny american overton window is not far apart at all, to the point you could possibly call them different wings of the same party.
Sure, that comparison has fallen apart with American fascism entering the mainstream, and for people wedged by the anti-lgbt republicans the differences are very obvious and simple. Even for a radical leftist like myself, there is an obvious better party, but I feel like my hand is forced. I’m voting for a party that doesn’t support my views (other than some social issues) solely because the alternative is fascism, and that’s a shitty feeling.
Unfortunately, people who have no representation within the US politics, notably leftists, see that both parties have the same views on most issues they truly care about. For example, someone who wants the repeal of the patriot act will notice that both parties support it (even though there are some democrats dissenting). Someone who wants real climate protections will be disappointed to notice that the changes supported by the democrats is not going to do much, if anything at all. Granted, they don’t support the rolling back of protections. God forbid you are a socialist and see the most socialist person in congress is Sanders. Even worse if you are an anarchist and see that everyone (or at least everyone I know of) is pro big-government (especially the so called libertarians). I could go on with police reform/abolition, indigenous rights, prison reform/abolition, healthcare, military policy, Palestine, and others.
The privileged perspective of those that don't have their rights controlled by politics.
Yeah, Missouri republicans tried to make it illegal to get trans related healthcare even as an adult if you had autism. But sure both sides are the same. I guess from their ivory bunker.
Yeah, shit like this is a big part of why I haven't sought diagnosis or help for my autism or gender shit even though they're ruining my fucking life. Hahahahahahahelpme
On the other hand, China.
everyone's rights are controlled by politics
Lol sure, but wealthy straight cis white men have always had full right to marry, arms, or vote. Every other group of people has had to argue for those freedoms, while others are considered the "default person".
Do trans people vote for someone that will allow them Healthcare or the one calling their existance pedophilia? That's not a choice, but it's a position many trans people are uniquely in. Just as black Americans had to argue for their freedom, to vote, to self protection. Just as women have to vote and own property. Just as queer folk have to marry.
Indifference to these situations means you're rights are so taken for granted that they will never be stripped away, so you are afforded the luxury of swing both parties the same
This is so far removed from the current political context that it's like comparing apples and oranges to apples and stones.
Or more acutely, a brain and a steaming smooth pile of shit that the republicans choose to use instead.
Okay but which side is chanting "kill f*ggots, kill all transgenders" at the rally?
The democrat side is objectively worse. You have to walk to the opposite side of the well to reach the handle. What did the artist mean by this?
Nah, it's good planning. While you stand there turning the handle, you have an excellent view of the town and all that's going on. On the Republican side, you have to work with your back to all that's going on, with little to look at but the fence
Bothe sydes badde
This but unironically, as a european I can't imagine having only two choices on such an enormously important choice for a democracy
I hope when the fascists rise in your country you recognize that liberals are indescribably better than the least evil fascist. If Trump wins, I'm dead, voting is dead, and leftists will be the first against the wall. If Biden wins, the presidency remains only a small part of the equation.
Elections for representatives are often more consequential than having a more progressive president. State races are more obviously important thanks to issues like abortion, but they've always mattered. Some states even have a certain degree of direct democracy. Whether one should vote against a fascist dictator shouldn't even be a conversation. We really should discuss the rest of the ballot and how we can get active in our community, but noooo. We have to talk about what should be the easiest fucking choice in our lives.
Sanest US policy wonk.
I don't know even know of a well informed, good faith position, left or right, where one would deny that Republicans are fascists. Some foolish leftists might say that all capitalists are fascists, but they still recognize Republicans as basically Nazis. Some fascists might argue they aren't fascists, but if you actually fall for that, you're dumber than dirt. A brain smoother than a mirror and smaller than a pea.
Sanest US policy wonk.
If I'm reading between the lines right, I think their issue is that they're objecting to the notion of there being two parties to choose from. In their eyes there's only one choice, as the other is undesirable. Which if anything supports your point (possibly unintentionally).
That said responding to a comment on electoral diversity with talk about getting shot next to a wall is unhinged.
Their issue is that US politics gives you brainworms. "I voted for Kodos" was already a joke in 1996, and as the argument gets less and less convincing the advocacy will get more and more unhinged.
I'm vaguely reminded about a comment I read about the poorest Americans voting for tax cuts and against welfare: The argument is that they were so immiserated that they're grasping for any straw offered; And if you try and get them to stop and think about what they're doing, they start ranting at you, because they don't have time for debate and game theory, they're barely threading water as is, they need help now.
It's absurdly ironic that you liken my "rant about fascism" to poor Americans refusing to question their vote "for tax cuts and against welfare." In the situation that your enlightened ass vaguely remembers, those poor Americans didn't vote directly for those policies that go against their self interest; they voted for the worse candidate out of the two options they had.
If the you view both parties as equally bad and voting for the better candidate as foolish, then those poor Americans couldn't have actually voted in their best interests in the other situation. You argue that some Americans simultaneously vote for the worse choice, and that they don't have a worse or better choice. Which is it? Are Democrats and Republicans equally evil aliens that will enslave humanity, or is one worse than the other?
You act like I'm unhinged and have brain worms for talking about fascism in the US, yet you cherry pick what sounds right from incompatible arguments to inform your worldview. You start from your existing opinion and Frankenstein facts together to argue for it. If I had to guess, you're tired of hearing about American politics and think it's simpler than it actually is. Maybe you're cynical and think it's all just a waste of time, but remain willfully ignorant about the serious consequences of our elections because it might make you feel guilty for promoting apathy.
I'm not talking in general hypotheticals, The comment was made under a vox populi segment, where a woman wanted to "end welfare" so the government would have more money for "her food stamps". And when the interviewer told her those are the same thing, she went into a rant about how she's not letting welfare queens get her money when she can't afford to feed her kids. In other words, she was so panicked and desperate she was unable to see the bigger picture, and reacted with hostility. The parallel is kinda stark. The start of this thread was "honestly, both choices are bad, Americans should have a better option" and your response was to rant about people against the wall.
I am not arguing both parties are equally bad. I am not saying voting is foolish. I made no argument about voting. I am not the having that conversation with you, your brainworms are. You are now on comment 3, and you still think I'm talking about the 2024 election. I'm not. I, and hopefully the rest of non-Americans in this thread, are making a broader point about the overall trajectory of US politics, which is that it's not looking good.
Consider, for example: Why do the evil aliens have to be the same? Why can't one of the evil aliens be worse than the other? Maybe Kang instituted a 4-day workweek. Maybe Kang offered free healthcare. Maybe Kang is vegan, and Kodos eats kids. In this case, it would be entirely justified to vote for Kang, since he is by far the better option compared to Kodos. But the joke would still work, unchanged, because the setup for the punchline is "why are we building a death ray?". I act like you're unhinged because you answer "Why the death ray?" with "Kodos is a fascist!".
If the death ray is the two party system, then some members from one party support plans to dismantle the death ray, while the other party wants to build something even worse than the death ray. If the death ray is shitty things both parties agree on in general, they usually have a solid majority of the population in support of the death ray. However, even explaining this to you is more of a response than you deserve.
You called me a wonk with brainworms for calling fascists what they are, ignoring everything I said after that about shifting the narrative to more important topics. I even explained how identifying fascists isn't unhinged, yet you doubled down because you never actually cared about good faith discussion. It's too late to walk back to a reasonable position when you made it obvious that you think taking politics seriously is stupid.
"There's no shark in the water. Open the beaches so you don't ruin the 4th of July weekend Brody. Quit being alarmist. It's not like that many people will die anyways."
Few things are more pathetic than lazy slimeballs like you, smug in their apathy.
I don't want to take away your food stamps. That's the worms talking again.
Anyway, enjoy the death ray.
The US parties are weird.
Because there's no PR, anyone who wants to be effective has to join one of the parties. Because of that, diversity in each party is way higher than you see in places that use party list PR.
For example, the Democrats have both Alrxandria Ocasio Cortez, who describes herself as a democratic socialist, and Joe Manchin, a fairly conservative former coal exec from West Virginia.
The real interesting bit of American elections tends to be the primaries, where all the voters registered with a party vote on who their candidate should be. Alexandria Ocasio Cortez got elected because she defeated the incumbent Democrat in the primary.
In 2020, everyone from Bernie Sanders to billionaire Michael Bloomberg ran in the Democratic primary. There was some real choice there until Biden won and it became just Trump vs Biden.
These other guys are insane! Just look at their well!
Not to mention their audacity for choosing that kind of bell for their chapel!
Also they enslave brown people over there.
Just look at those weirdos, living on the red side if the fence (I'm assuming they're red on both sides)
Maybe americans are poorly divided into two groups.
A poor Democrat and a poor Republican have more in common than a poor Democrat/Republican and a rich Democrat/Republican.
You can watch the animation this is from at https://youtu.be/MJ_EDzA6yJk
This frame is around 1:04
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/MJ_EDzA6yJk
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.