If they actually want to commit genocide, why are they telling the population to leave the dangerous areas, perform roof knocking, etc.?
They told like half of Gaza to clear out in 24 hours, that's well over a million people, it's literally impossible to accomplish that. It's to get deniability when killing civilians.
They also then bombed the evacuation route, lol. Mustache twirling evil.
So Israel wants to kill civilians in Gaza? How ludicrous! They must have been doing exactly that for all these years, every single day! I wonder what happened right now that their drive to kill civilians peaked so much! Palestinians are totally innocent and don't want to kill civilians in Israel though, right? This never happened, or did I miss anything?
Of course they don't. I think you're mistaking Hamas for the general palestinian population
That's only because hamas actively tries to be mistaken for general Palestinian population.
Then don't fall for it
Israel tries, as we can see. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't care about whether it is military or citizens.
No... they don't actually. Using white phosphorus on a heavily populated city doesn't look like doing your best to pick out the good from the bad, it looks like killing everything that can die.
Want to use one example to win an argument? I could do the same: using a baby doll to try to convince the public that Palestinian babies are getting killed by Israel makes you look like a lying scum instead of a victim.
Bro that means you're literally trying to help Hamas
How exactly?
This is the exact mindset that led to the Internment of Japanese Americans, or the frequent racism against Muslims for years after 9-11(and still going on to this day). People from a place do no represent the place they're from, and a group of terrorists do not represent millions of people.
Come up with a better plan to stop a terrorist group in Gaza then? Without letting them proceed with their violence.
To give the illusion of escape.
Telling them to leave, but not actually letting them go...
Telling them to go to bomb shelters that don't actually exist...
Who is not letting them go to south Gaza? Certainly not Israel. Hamas does actually, because more victims are what they want, since it gives them more power.
Have you never seen a disaster movie? Have you never been stuck in traffic on a holiday weekend where lots of people are traveling? I can't imagine how it's possible that you think a million people are just going to pack up and move, all at once, in a 24 hour window, like that is in anyway a reasonable request. Especially after these people were cut off from from food, water, and fuel (you know, the stuff you need for traveling) almost a week ago. And have all those people go to an area where there isn't space, and still no food, water, or electricity. Common guy really?
Israel is not operating in good faith, that is abundantly clear. This warning is just for the record, so that after Israel commits genocide they can point to that warning and say it's the civilians fault for not leaving like we told them too.
Your probably right about Hamas motives. Fine. But what your ignoring is that the Israeli government views all Palestinians as subhuman, and they intend to exact revenge on all of the people. Hamas and Israel are both happy with Palestinian civilian casualties, but for different reasons. The only differences between them is one side basically admits it's a terrorist organization, while the other side benefits from the political and military support of the west, as well as people like you who are eager to make excuses for outright genocide. Remember, where here in the comments on an article about Israel using white phosphorus in a populated area which is a fucking war crime.
I don't know if they see them as sub human. What makes you think so?
They know they are going to kill some, especially given how Hamas uses them as meat shields, and they are obviously accepting that. They still try to minimize the number with roof knocking etc.
That they accept civilian casualties should be the topic of the discussion, not black and white nonsense like everywhere. If we look at history, the same happened in Germany in WW2. How to defeat such terrorists / evil states? Is it possible without killing innocent people? Holy fuck this is not something simple.
Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."
Both israelites and palestinians dislike each others, that is much a fact no need to debate.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
That was not what I was asking. They avoid killing them quite a bit, given the circumstances. Why would they do that if their goal was genocide?
Look up what plausible deniability is. The goal is genocide, but they can't just do genocide without pissing off the world. So they basically imprison 2.2 million people in a space the size of Seattle, destroy entire buildings, shoot unarmed people in Palestinian territory, bulldoze Palestinian homes or outright take them and give them to Israeli settlers. This naturally pisses people off. Hamas fires rockets in response. Israel blows even more shit up in response. They perpetuate the cycle put into motion when the UK stole Palestinian land and gave it to Israel.
Let's not get the sequence of events wrong. Israel faced existential threads from day one of declaring independence, where the surrounding states immediately attacked. There was and is no compromise for Palestine, they want to destroy Israel. That is their official goal, not some secret or conspiracy.
Palestine is not a prison because they are super nice people and Israel is evil. The issue is terrorism. Israel needs to deal with it some way. You can argue that there are better ways, certainly. And that Israel is doing a crap job, like US prisons.
What is Israel supposed to do now? What would your plan be? More than one out of every 10'000 of your fellow people just got murdered. That's like 46'000 people if it were the USA. That is the scale.
If we look at history, for example Nazis, do you think it was right to bomb Germany to the ground?
They have another, competing goal of getting cheap labor out of the Palestinians.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
They told people to gather in the city center, and then they bombed the city center
There's reports of them bombing the exit corridor.
I didn't bother sourcing since this was all easy to find, but happy to provide.
Thank you kindly.
Hamas bombed the escape routes. They need their human shields.
Source? Or is that just a hunch that you're presenting as fact?
In fact, I'd be wary of saying anything without "reportedly" heavily attached in this kinda situation. There is so much propaganda and misinformation that stating anything as fact is dangerous.
I don't know of one trust worthy source. But you can start reading from here.
As this is a very hot topic, follow links, read edit history and discussion. If you can, also read in different languages.
So you're just talking out your ass and presenting as fact.
I asked for sources for your claim because I couldn't find a single source saying it was Hamas, while multiple claimed Israel.
I'm the one actually doing research and being responsible about how I discuss this topic. You presented as fact something you couldn't provide a single source for. I said "there's reports" and was able to provide a handful of reports when asked.
I've read multiple books on the conflict, I know pretty detailed history going back to just prior to 1917. I don't need a wikipedia article that goes back less than 20 years, thanks.
iF yOu CaN, aLSo rEaD iN diFFeReNT lAnGuAGes
How about if you can, don't present complete bullshit as fact? For starters, at least. Then maybe you can get on some goofy-ass multilingual high horse 🤦♂️
They stopped roof knocking last week.
Telling people to leave when there is nowhere to go, Egypt is refusing to open their border and I doubt Israel is going to open theirs, isn't not wanting to commit genocide: it's a way to save face, to say "well they didn't evacuate so it's their problem."
How? Hamas attacked Israel. So Hamas is committing genocide on itself? Seems like a leopard eating you face move.
We got a big brain over hurrr
You'll find that I'm critical of both sides in this conflict. I believe Israel and Hamas governments are in the wrong, have killed innocent people, and both should be dissolved and held accountable. This is the result of putting extremists in power.
And one of them enjoys unconditional support from the most powerful military in the world. It's completely asymmetrical.
I wonder why nobody supports the Palestine people, not even the Arab countries around. Perhaps because of all the terrorist attacks?
Or racism. Probably racism. One of the biggest driving factors in checks papers ah, genocide.
Israel creates terrorists out of Palestinians by the constant chokehold in the form of an apartheid state. Almost like if you abuse a group of people repeatedly over years, eventually, some of them get the whacky idea to hit back.
They attacked Israel one day after it declared independence. With the, ever since, stated goal of destroying Israel. Not accepting any sort of agreement. Pure hate and destruction.
But Israel are the bad guys because of racism? They are the abusers, because they fight back and don't want to get destroyed? They are certainly not saints by any means, but what a twisted view is that? That is the type of bullshit like Russia had to attack Ukraine because of NATO.
Hey boss, when you have a group of people suddenly declare a holy site and that they're a new country inside an existing country, that's usually met with force of "No, fuck off". Try it in the United States, I can guarantee you it will not last a week. They started the conflict on 'religious grounds' and have been pushing Palestinians out of their homes, by force, while also trying to make themselves synonymous with Jews as a whole so suckers like you think they're the victims. Hell, the United States sent them the Iron Dome infrastructure and they used that protection to do more slaughtering of Palestinians and take more land.
Yes. Israel are the bad guys for using white fucking phosphorus as a weapon. They aren't defending themselves. They're literally stealing homes and land and when Palestinians try to take it back they're killed. Look at the map of their border for the last couple decades. Absolutely fuck Israel. They not only started this conflict but put Palestinians into an open air prison from which they cannot escape. Look up what an apartheid state is because that's the chokehold Israel has had over the Palestinians for years upon years. This is not new. Israel has always been the bad guys and will continue to be. This shouldn't be controversial and it boggles my mind how so many people can be so poorly informed about this conflict and simply take the side of Israel because daddy Biden and the Western countries default to it.
Israel does not mean all jews. Israel does not get a free genocide pass because Jews faced their own genocide 80 years ago. They do not get to use chemical weapons because they themselves were gassed. They do not get to become the monsters they once fought against.
Israel has always been the bad guys and will continue to be.
When you put it like that it suggests there's only one group of bad guys. Hamas clearly have their own very bad guys, as we saw last week. Yes, Israel can be brutal and there's a history to this, but it's never going to work to pick just one side and say "You're the baddies."
No to be clear, there's only one group of bad guys. You don't blame victims of abuse for fighting back and as far as I'm concerned this was a proportional response to being ethnically fucking cleansed. Obviously in a civilized world there'd be no need for Hamas but again, Israel is to blame for their entire existence.
You don't think there's anything bad about murdering hundreds of people at a music festival and in their homes?
I think over 60 years of senselessly slaughtering Palestinians over a dogshit reason like religion can cause brutal retaliation in the form of militant extremists. What Hamas did is the fault of Israel. Fuck Israel.
The IDF are the bigger terrorists.
I think once you start using chemical weapons such as white phosphorus, a chemical agent so controversial Call of Duty had to remove it as a killstreak after backlash, you have lost the plot so hard that anyone willing to defend Israel after this are just transparently ignorant or monsters.
White phosphorus is used in smoke and illumination kits. It is not only used as an incendiary weapon.
It is only legal to be used in smoke or illumination purposes.
It is being used for neither by Israel.
Got a source?
Yeah you're literally commenting on it.
From the article:
Reuters could not independently verify the rights group's accounts.
The fucking hubris on some of you guys is insane.
And you're fucking retarded.
Human Rights Watch on Thursday accused Israel of using white phosphorus munitions in its military operations in Gaza and Lebanon, saying the use of such weapons puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injury.
I don't give two fucks what Reuters could independently verify. We have confirmed reports, images, and videos of children with holes burned into their bodies. They did this shit in 2009 as well. You're on Lemmy but incapable of figuring out a fucking search engine? I don't have patience for morons anymore.
IDF is doing enough shitty stuff already I don't know why you think we need to spread misinformation to muddy the waters. Nothing you added supports your previous statement. I understand there's a lot of anger around but you're playing into their hands
I literally posted a source of them doing it prior and the article you're still fucking commenting on is claiming they're doing it again but sure, give them the benefit of the doubt when we have evidence they've already been doing it. My anger is shared between Israel and the people trying to defend the IDF when shown clear proof of the war criminals they are. What else could they fucking do before you're willing to condemn them? Fuck, may as well take a plane to Egypt and head on over to see it yourself. Just keep in mind white phosphorus will choke you to death if it doesn't land on you, in which case, there's no way to put the fire out. Enjoy.
Right now by bombing one of the worlds most densely populated areas with white phosphors.
The White Phosphorus is in the flares, not the bombs.
Flare, bombs. Doesn't matter how you think it's being delivered, it's still being chucked into Gaza in large amounts.
It's a target market.
4 weeks of Napoleonic artillery would level the strip. You need markers like wp and "smart" artillery munitions that can course correct mid flight to avoid flattening the damn city.
Yes, but your implying something that isn't happening. It's bad enough just sticking to actual events.
Genocide
If they actually want to commit genocide, why are they telling the population to leave the dangerous areas, perform roof knocking, etc.?
They told like half of Gaza to clear out in 24 hours, that's well over a million people, it's literally impossible to accomplish that. It's to get deniability when killing civilians.
They also then bombed the evacuation route, lol. Mustache twirling evil.
So Israel wants to kill civilians in Gaza? How ludicrous! They must have been doing exactly that for all these years, every single day! I wonder what happened right now that their drive to kill civilians peaked so much! Palestinians are totally innocent and don't want to kill civilians in Israel though, right? This never happened, or did I miss anything?
Of course they don't. I think you're mistaking Hamas for the general palestinian population
That's only because hamas actively tries to be mistaken for general Palestinian population.
Then don't fall for it
Israel tries, as we can see. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't care about whether it is military or citizens.
No... they don't actually. Using white phosphorus on a heavily populated city doesn't look like doing your best to pick out the good from the bad, it looks like killing everything that can die.
Want to use one example to win an argument? I could do the same: using a baby doll to try to convince the public that Palestinian babies are getting killed by Israel makes you look like a lying scum instead of a victim.
Bro that means you're literally trying to help Hamas
How exactly?
This is the exact mindset that led to the Internment of Japanese Americans, or the frequent racism against Muslims for years after 9-11(and still going on to this day). People from a place do no represent the place they're from, and a group of terrorists do not represent millions of people.
Come up with a better plan to stop a terrorist group in Gaza then? Without letting them proceed with their violence.
To give the illusion of escape.
Telling them to leave, but not actually letting them go...
Telling them to go to bomb shelters that don't actually exist...
Who is not letting them go to south Gaza? Certainly not Israel. Hamas does actually, because more victims are what they want, since it gives them more power.
Have you never seen a disaster movie? Have you never been stuck in traffic on a holiday weekend where lots of people are traveling? I can't imagine how it's possible that you think a million people are just going to pack up and move, all at once, in a 24 hour window, like that is in anyway a reasonable request. Especially after these people were cut off from from food, water, and fuel (you know, the stuff you need for traveling) almost a week ago. And have all those people go to an area where there isn't space, and still no food, water, or electricity. Common guy really?
Israel is not operating in good faith, that is abundantly clear. This warning is just for the record, so that after Israel commits genocide they can point to that warning and say it's the civilians fault for not leaving like we told them too.
Your probably right about Hamas motives. Fine. But what your ignoring is that the Israeli government views all Palestinians as subhuman, and they intend to exact revenge on all of the people. Hamas and Israel are both happy with Palestinian civilian casualties, but for different reasons. The only differences between them is one side basically admits it's a terrorist organization, while the other side benefits from the political and military support of the west, as well as people like you who are eager to make excuses for outright genocide. Remember, where here in the comments on an article about Israel using white phosphorus in a populated area which is a fucking war crime.
I don't know if they see them as sub human. What makes you think so? They know they are going to kill some, especially given how Hamas uses them as meat shields, and they are obviously accepting that. They still try to minimize the number with roof knocking etc.
That they accept civilian casualties should be the topic of the discussion, not black and white nonsense like everywhere. If we look at history, the same happened in Germany in WW2. How to defeat such terrorists / evil states? Is it possible without killing innocent people? Holy fuck this is not something simple.
Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:
https://twitter.com/MahaGaza/status/1711322657545765318
Interesting. I swear i've heard that "our victims are animals and not people" rhetoric before. Somewhere. Can't put my finger on it.
If anyone needs a hint: it's the Nazis. If you needed a hint for that, learn.
I mean, it's actually everyone who has ever wanted to do a genocide but yeah there's one group in particular. See, for example: https://www.npr.org/2011/03/29/134956180/criminals-see-their-victims-as-less-than-human
Both israelites and palestinians dislike each others, that is much a fact no need to debate.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
That was not what I was asking. They avoid killing them quite a bit, given the circumstances. Why would they do that if their goal was genocide?
Look up what plausible deniability is. The goal is genocide, but they can't just do genocide without pissing off the world. So they basically imprison 2.2 million people in a space the size of Seattle, destroy entire buildings, shoot unarmed people in Palestinian territory, bulldoze Palestinian homes or outright take them and give them to Israeli settlers. This naturally pisses people off. Hamas fires rockets in response. Israel blows even more shit up in response. They perpetuate the cycle put into motion when the UK stole Palestinian land and gave it to Israel.
Let's not get the sequence of events wrong. Israel faced existential threads from day one of declaring independence, where the surrounding states immediately attacked. There was and is no compromise for Palestine, they want to destroy Israel. That is their official goal, not some secret or conspiracy.
Palestine is not a prison because they are super nice people and Israel is evil. The issue is terrorism. Israel needs to deal with it some way. You can argue that there are better ways, certainly. And that Israel is doing a crap job, like US prisons.
What is Israel supposed to do now? What would your plan be? More than one out of every 10'000 of your fellow people just got murdered. That's like 46'000 people if it were the USA. That is the scale.
If we look at history, for example Nazis, do you think it was right to bomb Germany to the ground?
They have another, competing goal of getting cheap labor out of the Palestinians.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
They told people to gather in the city center, and then they bombed the city center
There's reports of them bombing the exit corridor.
Source please.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-c8b4fc20e4fd2ef381d5edb7e9e8308c
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-airstrike-kills-women-children-fleeing-evacuation-route-northern-gaza-2023-10
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-bombs-hit-only-exit-route-for-gaza-residents-4469430
And an eyewitness report: https://www.972mag.com/gaza-salah-al-din-road/
I didn't bother sourcing since this was all easy to find, but happy to provide.
Thank you kindly.
Hamas bombed the escape routes. They need their human shields.
Source? Or is that just a hunch that you're presenting as fact?
In fact, I'd be wary of saying anything without "reportedly" heavily attached in this kinda situation. There is so much propaganda and misinformation that stating anything as fact is dangerous.
I don't know of one trust worthy source. But you can start reading from here. As this is a very hot topic, follow links, read edit history and discussion. If you can, also read in different languages.
So you're just talking out your ass and presenting as fact.
I asked for sources for your claim because I couldn't find a single source saying it was Hamas, while multiple claimed Israel.
I'm the one actually doing research and being responsible about how I discuss this topic. You presented as fact something you couldn't provide a single source for. I said "there's reports" and was able to provide a handful of reports when asked.
I've read multiple books on the conflict, I know pretty detailed history going back to just prior to 1917. I don't need a wikipedia article that goes back less than 20 years, thanks.
How about if you can, don't present complete bullshit as fact? For starters, at least. Then maybe you can get on some goofy-ass multilingual high horse 🤦♂️
They stopped roof knocking last week.
Telling people to leave when there is nowhere to go, Egypt is refusing to open their border and I doubt Israel is going to open theirs, isn't not wanting to commit genocide: it's a way to save face, to say "well they didn't evacuate so it's their problem."
How? Hamas attacked Israel. So Hamas is committing genocide on itself? Seems like a leopard eating you face move.
We got a big brain over hurrr
You'll find that I'm critical of both sides in this conflict. I believe Israel and Hamas governments are in the wrong, have killed innocent people, and both should be dissolved and held accountable. This is the result of putting extremists in power.
And one of them enjoys unconditional support from the most powerful military in the world. It's completely asymmetrical.
I wonder why nobody supports the Palestine people, not even the Arab countries around. Perhaps because of all the terrorist attacks?
Or racism. Probably racism. One of the biggest driving factors in checks papers ah, genocide.
Israel creates terrorists out of Palestinians by the constant chokehold in the form of an apartheid state. Almost like if you abuse a group of people repeatedly over years, eventually, some of them get the whacky idea to hit back.
They attacked Israel one day after it declared independence. With the, ever since, stated goal of destroying Israel. Not accepting any sort of agreement. Pure hate and destruction.
But Israel are the bad guys because of racism? They are the abusers, because they fight back and don't want to get destroyed? They are certainly not saints by any means, but what a twisted view is that? That is the type of bullshit like Russia had to attack Ukraine because of NATO.
Hey boss, when you have a group of people suddenly declare a holy site and that they're a new country inside an existing country, that's usually met with force of "No, fuck off". Try it in the United States, I can guarantee you it will not last a week. They started the conflict on 'religious grounds' and have been pushing Palestinians out of their homes, by force, while also trying to make themselves synonymous with Jews as a whole so suckers like you think they're the victims. Hell, the United States sent them the Iron Dome infrastructure and they used that protection to do more slaughtering of Palestinians and take more land.
Yes. Israel are the bad guys for using white fucking phosphorus as a weapon. They aren't defending themselves. They're literally stealing homes and land and when Palestinians try to take it back they're killed. Look at the map of their border for the last couple decades. Absolutely fuck Israel. They not only started this conflict but put Palestinians into an open air prison from which they cannot escape. Look up what an apartheid state is because that's the chokehold Israel has had over the Palestinians for years upon years. This is not new. Israel has always been the bad guys and will continue to be. This shouldn't be controversial and it boggles my mind how so many people can be so poorly informed about this conflict and simply take the side of Israel because daddy Biden and the Western countries default to it.
Israel does not mean all jews. Israel does not get a free genocide pass because Jews faced their own genocide 80 years ago. They do not get to use chemical weapons because they themselves were gassed. They do not get to become the monsters they once fought against.
When you put it like that it suggests there's only one group of bad guys. Hamas clearly have their own very bad guys, as we saw last week. Yes, Israel can be brutal and there's a history to this, but it's never going to work to pick just one side and say "You're the baddies."
No to be clear, there's only one group of bad guys. You don't blame victims of abuse for fighting back and as far as I'm concerned this was a proportional response to being ethnically fucking cleansed. Obviously in a civilized world there'd be no need for Hamas but again, Israel is to blame for their entire existence.
You don't think there's anything bad about murdering hundreds of people at a music festival and in their homes?
I think over 60 years of senselessly slaughtering Palestinians over a dogshit reason like religion can cause brutal retaliation in the form of militant extremists. What Hamas did is the fault of Israel. Fuck Israel.
The IDF are the bigger terrorists.
I think once you start using chemical weapons such as white phosphorus, a chemical agent so controversial Call of Duty had to remove it as a killstreak after backlash, you have lost the plot so hard that anyone willing to defend Israel after this are just transparently ignorant or monsters.
White phosphorus is used in smoke and illumination kits. It is not only used as an incendiary weapon.
It is only legal to be used in smoke or illumination purposes.
It is being used for neither by Israel.
Got a source?
Yeah you're literally commenting on it.
From the article:
The fucking hubris on some of you guys is insane.
And you're fucking retarded.
I don't give two fucks what Reuters could independently verify. We have confirmed reports, images, and videos of children with holes burned into their bodies. They did this shit in 2009 as well. You're on Lemmy but incapable of figuring out a fucking search engine? I don't have patience for morons anymore.
IDF is doing enough shitty stuff already I don't know why you think we need to spread misinformation to muddy the waters. Nothing you added supports your previous statement. I understand there's a lot of anger around but you're playing into their hands
I literally posted a source of them doing it prior and the article you're still fucking commenting on is claiming they're doing it again but sure, give them the benefit of the doubt when we have evidence they've already been doing it. My anger is shared between Israel and the people trying to defend the IDF when shown clear proof of the war criminals they are. What else could they fucking do before you're willing to condemn them? Fuck, may as well take a plane to Egypt and head on over to see it yourself. Just keep in mind white phosphorus will choke you to death if it doesn't land on you, in which case, there's no way to put the fire out. Enjoy.
Right now by bombing one of the worlds most densely populated areas with white phosphors.
The White Phosphorus is in the flares, not the bombs.
Flare, bombs. Doesn't matter how you think it's being delivered, it's still being chucked into Gaza in large amounts.
It's a target market.
4 weeks of Napoleonic artillery would level the strip. You need markers like wp and "smart" artillery munitions that can course correct mid flight to avoid flattening the damn city.
Yes, but your implying something that isn't happening. It's bad enough just sticking to actual events.