If they actually want to commit genocide, why are they telling the population to leave the dangerous areas, perform roof knocking, etc.?
They told like half of Gaza to clear out in 24 hours, that's well over a million people, it's literally impossible to accomplish that. It's to get deniability when killing civilians.
They also then bombed the evacuation route, lol. Mustache twirling evil.
So Israel wants to kill civilians in Gaza? How ludicrous! They must have been doing exactly that for all these years, every single day! I wonder what happened right now that their drive to kill civilians peaked so much! Palestinians are totally innocent and don't want to kill civilians in Israel though, right? This never happened, or did I miss anything?
Of course they don't. I think you're mistaking Hamas for the general palestinian population
That's only because hamas actively tries to be mistaken for general Palestinian population.
Then don't fall for it
Israel tries, as we can see. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't care about whether it is military or citizens.
No... they don't actually. Using white phosphorus on a heavily populated city doesn't look like doing your best to pick out the good from the bad, it looks like killing everything that can die.
Want to use one example to win an argument? I could do the same: using a baby doll to try to convince the public that Palestinian babies are getting killed by Israel makes you look like a lying scum instead of a victim.
Bro that means you're literally trying to help Hamas
How exactly?
This is the exact mindset that led to the Internment of Japanese Americans, or the frequent racism against Muslims for years after 9-11(and still going on to this day). People from a place do no represent the place they're from, and a group of terrorists do not represent millions of people.
Come up with a better plan to stop a terrorist group in Gaza then? Without letting them proceed with their violence.
To give the illusion of escape.
Telling them to leave, but not actually letting them go...
Telling them to go to bomb shelters that don't actually exist...
Who is not letting them go to south Gaza? Certainly not Israel. Hamas does actually, because more victims are what they want, since it gives them more power.
Have you never seen a disaster movie? Have you never been stuck in traffic on a holiday weekend where lots of people are traveling? I can't imagine how it's possible that you think a million people are just going to pack up and move, all at once, in a 24 hour window, like that is in anyway a reasonable request. Especially after these people were cut off from from food, water, and fuel (you know, the stuff you need for traveling) almost a week ago. And have all those people go to an area where there isn't space, and still no food, water, or electricity. Common guy really?
Israel is not operating in good faith, that is abundantly clear. This warning is just for the record, so that after Israel commits genocide they can point to that warning and say it's the civilians fault for not leaving like we told them too.
Your probably right about Hamas motives. Fine. But what your ignoring is that the Israeli government views all Palestinians as subhuman, and they intend to exact revenge on all of the people. Hamas and Israel are both happy with Palestinian civilian casualties, but for different reasons. The only differences between them is one side basically admits it's a terrorist organization, while the other side benefits from the political and military support of the west, as well as people like you who are eager to make excuses for outright genocide. Remember, where here in the comments on an article about Israel using white phosphorus in a populated area which is a fucking war crime.
I don't know if they see them as sub human. What makes you think so?
They know they are going to kill some, especially given how Hamas uses them as meat shields, and they are obviously accepting that. They still try to minimize the number with roof knocking etc.
That they accept civilian casualties should be the topic of the discussion, not black and white nonsense like everywhere. If we look at history, the same happened in Germany in WW2. How to defeat such terrorists / evil states? Is it possible without killing innocent people? Holy fuck this is not something simple.
Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:
"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly."
Both israelites and palestinians dislike each others, that is much a fact no need to debate.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
That was not what I was asking. They avoid killing them quite a bit, given the circumstances. Why would they do that if their goal was genocide?
Look up what plausible deniability is. The goal is genocide, but they can't just do genocide without pissing off the world. So they basically imprison 2.2 million people in a space the size of Seattle, destroy entire buildings, shoot unarmed people in Palestinian territory, bulldoze Palestinian homes or outright take them and give them to Israeli settlers. This naturally pisses people off. Hamas fires rockets in response. Israel blows even more shit up in response. They perpetuate the cycle put into motion when the UK stole Palestinian land and gave it to Israel.
Let's not get the sequence of events wrong. Israel faced existential threads from day one of declaring independence, where the surrounding states immediately attacked. There was and is no compromise for Palestine, they want to destroy Israel. That is their official goal, not some secret or conspiracy.
Palestine is not a prison because they are super nice people and Israel is evil. The issue is terrorism. Israel needs to deal with it some way. You can argue that there are better ways, certainly. And that Israel is doing a crap job, like US prisons.
What is Israel supposed to do now? What would your plan be? More than one out of every 10'000 of your fellow people just got murdered. That's like 46'000 people if it were the USA. That is the scale.
If we look at history, for example Nazis, do you think it was right to bomb Germany to the ground?
They have another, competing goal of getting cheap labor out of the Palestinians.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
They told people to gather in the city center, and then they bombed the city center
There's reports of them bombing the exit corridor.
I didn't bother sourcing since this was all easy to find, but happy to provide.
Thank you kindly.
Hamas bombed the escape routes. They need their human shields.
Source? Or is that just a hunch that you're presenting as fact?
In fact, I'd be wary of saying anything without "reportedly" heavily attached in this kinda situation. There is so much propaganda and misinformation that stating anything as fact is dangerous.
I don't know of one trust worthy source. But you can start reading from here.
As this is a very hot topic, follow links, read edit history and discussion. If you can, also read in different languages.
So you're just talking out your ass and presenting as fact.
I asked for sources for your claim because I couldn't find a single source saying it was Hamas, while multiple claimed Israel.
I'm the one actually doing research and being responsible about how I discuss this topic. You presented as fact something you couldn't provide a single source for. I said "there's reports" and was able to provide a handful of reports when asked.
I've read multiple books on the conflict, I know pretty detailed history going back to just prior to 1917. I don't need a wikipedia article that goes back less than 20 years, thanks.
iF yOu CaN, aLSo rEaD iN diFFeReNT lAnGuAGes
How about if you can, don't present complete bullshit as fact? For starters, at least. Then maybe you can get on some goofy-ass multilingual high horse 🤦♂️
They stopped roof knocking last week.
Telling people to leave when there is nowhere to go, Egypt is refusing to open their border and I doubt Israel is going to open theirs, isn't not wanting to commit genocide: it's a way to save face, to say "well they didn't evacuate so it's their problem."
How? Hamas attacked Israel. So Hamas is committing genocide on itself? Seems like a leopard eating you face move.
We got a big brain over hurrr
You'll find that I'm critical of both sides in this conflict. I believe Israel and Hamas governments are in the wrong, have killed innocent people, and both should be dissolved and held accountable. This is the result of putting extremists in power.
And one of them enjoys unconditional support from the most powerful military in the world. It's completely asymmetrical.
I wonder why nobody supports the Palestine people, not even the Arab countries around. Perhaps because of all the terrorist attacks?
Or racism. Probably racism. One of the biggest driving factors in checks papers ah, genocide.
Israel creates terrorists out of Palestinians by the constant chokehold in the form of an apartheid state. Almost like if you abuse a group of people repeatedly over years, eventually, some of them get the whacky idea to hit back.
They attacked Israel one day after it declared independence. With the, ever since, stated goal of destroying Israel. Not accepting any sort of agreement. Pure hate and destruction.
But Israel are the bad guys because of racism? They are the abusers, because they fight back and don't want to get destroyed? They are certainly not saints by any means, but what a twisted view is that? That is the type of bullshit like Russia had to attack Ukraine because of NATO.
Hey boss, when you have a group of people suddenly declare a holy site and that they're a new country inside an existing country, that's usually met with force of "No, fuck off". Try it in the United States, I can guarantee you it will not last a week. They started the conflict on 'religious grounds' and have been pushing Palestinians out of their homes, by force, while also trying to make themselves synonymous with Jews as a whole so suckers like you think they're the victims. Hell, the United States sent them the Iron Dome infrastructure and they used that protection to do more slaughtering of Palestinians and take more land.
Yes. Israel are the bad guys for using white fucking phosphorus as a weapon. They aren't defending themselves. They're literally stealing homes and land and when Palestinians try to take it back they're killed. Look at the map of their border for the last couple decades. Absolutely fuck Israel. They not only started this conflict but put Palestinians into an open air prison from which they cannot escape. Look up what an apartheid state is because that's the chokehold Israel has had over the Palestinians for years upon years. This is not new. Israel has always been the bad guys and will continue to be. This shouldn't be controversial and it boggles my mind how so many people can be so poorly informed about this conflict and simply take the side of Israel because daddy Biden and the Western countries default to it.
Israel does not mean all jews. Israel does not get a free genocide pass because Jews faced their own genocide 80 years ago. They do not get to use chemical weapons because they themselves were gassed. They do not get to become the monsters they once fought against.
Israel has always been the bad guys and will continue to be.
When you put it like that it suggests there's only one group of bad guys. Hamas clearly have their own very bad guys, as we saw last week. Yes, Israel can be brutal and there's a history to this, but it's never going to work to pick just one side and say "You're the baddies."
No to be clear, there's only one group of bad guys. You don't blame victims of abuse for fighting back and as far as I'm concerned this was a proportional response to being ethnically fucking cleansed. Obviously in a civilized world there'd be no need for Hamas but again, Israel is to blame for their entire existence.
You don't think there's anything bad about murdering hundreds of people at a music festival and in their homes?
I think once you start using chemical weapons such as white phosphorus, a chemical agent so controversial Call of Duty had to remove it as a killstreak after backlash, you have lost the plot so hard that anyone willing to defend Israel after this are just transparently ignorant or monsters.
White phosphorus is used in smoke and illumination kits. It is not only used as an incendiary weapon.
It is only legal to be used in smoke or illumination purposes.
It is being used for neither by Israel.
Got a source?
Yeah you're literally commenting on it.
From the article:
Reuters could not independently verify the rights group's accounts.
The fucking hubris on some of you guys is insane.
And you're fucking retarded.
Human Rights Watch on Thursday accused Israel of using white phosphorus munitions in its military operations in Gaza and Lebanon, saying the use of such weapons puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injury.
I don't give two fucks what Reuters could independently verify. We have confirmed reports, images, and videos of children with holes burned into their bodies. They did this shit in 2009 as well. You're on Lemmy but incapable of figuring out a fucking search engine? I don't have patience for morons anymore.
IDF is doing enough shitty stuff already I don't know why you think we need to spread misinformation to muddy the waters. Nothing you added supports your previous statement. I understand there's a lot of anger around but you're playing into their hands
Right now by bombing one of the worlds most densely populated areas with white phosphors.
The White Phosphorus is in the flares, not the bombs.
Flare, bombs. Doesn't matter how you think it's being delivered, it's still being chucked into Gaza in large amounts.
It's a target market.
4 weeks of Napoleonic artillery would level the strip. You need markers like wp and "smart" artillery munitions that can course correct mid flight to avoid flattening the damn city.
Yes, but your implying something that isn't happening. It's bad enough just sticking to actual events.
We, the ones who realize this is horror, are not the worst. The worst are those who use chemical weapons and feel justified in doing so. The worst are those who are comfortable murdering innocent people with methods so gruesome they were internationally banned.
Fuck Hamas for the war crimes of murdering innocent civilians. Fuck Israel for the war crimes of murdering innocent civilians, pushing people from their homes, and now using chemical weapons on par with napalm. The only prayers I give, to a god I don't serve, are to Palestine and those just trying to live peaceful lives.
White phosphorus is considered an incendiary weapon under Protocol III of the Convention on the Prohibition of Use of Certain Conventional Weapons. The protocol prohibits using incendiary weapons against military targets located among civilians, although Israel has not signed it and is not bound by it.
Why the fuck do we give them any military support then? If their reason is true ("we need help to defend ourselves"), there is no reason why they couldn't sign a fucking protocol for minimizing casualties.
Because we want Israel to use wp. Wp rounds in guns are the "tracer" rounds and can be used to correct long distance fire.. And with modern "smart" artillery shells you can have them hit a course correct in flight to hit a "hot spot* that a drone or operative lit up. This allows you to use artillery without having to flatten several city blocks to hit one target.
Without the use of these sorts of rounds artillery would have to fire significantly less accurate rounds. And like in the Ukraine War, Gaza would be reduced to nothing but rubble. Gaza is so small that Nort Korea has the ability to flatten it with its Artillery setup.
Reasonable. But what I mean is: we should completely deny any military help until they vow to uphold the same military standards as we do. And with "vow" I mean "sign". In writing.
War is fucked up anyway so demanding upholding some standards isn't too much to ask in exchange for help, IMO
But what I mean is: we should completely deny any military help until they vow to uphold the same military standards as we do.
We do. Our military uses wp rounds too.
The problem is not that wp rounds are used, but how.
Israel isn't firing off whole volleys of wp rounds. That would be prohibitively expensive.
It's because both combative parties(Israel Government, Hamas) are out for nothing but blood. They don't care who's blood it is, they just want it.
Human Rights are not Zionist Rights.
Wait, I thought chemical warfare was a war crime or something.
Look at Russia, it don’t matter because everything is fucked to shit right now in regards to international law
Also look at the US: who gave Ukraine white phosphorus to use against the Russians. I'm not saying I support Russia what so ever but there are international laws that protect human rights and the west clearly thinks it doesn't apply to them
I'm trying to find something about this, but all I can find is articles saying Russia used white phosphorus. Where did you see this?
Russia uses cluster bombs too though? Cluster bombs are bad because unexploded munitions are a lot like mines. The fighting is happening in Ukraine, not in Russia, and Ukraine is already littered with mines and unexploded munitions because of Russia's use of both from the start of the war.
On top of that Israel's President Herzog basically admitting to collective punishment but everyone is treating it like just another Saturday in Suburbia.
The thing about laws is...
Well, someone has to enforce them.
So when the people breaking the law are also the people primarily tasked with enforcing it...
White phosphorus munitions can legally be used on battlefields to make smoke screens, generate illumination, mark targets or burn bunkers and buildings. Because it has legal uses, white phosphorus is not banned as a chemical weapon under international conventions, but it can cause serious burns and start fires.
You just can't use it to hit people (I don't think you're allowed set buildings on fire to kill people either)
And Israel is on thin ice because they used white phosphorous before in '09 (not claiming they used it illegally because I can't find a source that will say one way or the other)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_munitions#International_lawArticle 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target". Article 2 of the same protocol prohibits the deliberate use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions)
Depends on what they used it for. White phosphorus is the best known substance for creating smokescreens. It also happens to brutally mutilate people who are directly hit with the stuff.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
JERUSALEM, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Human Rights Watch on Thursday accused Israel of using white phosphorus munitions in its military operations in Gaza and Lebanon, saying the use of such weapons puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injury.
Israel has been bombarding Gaza in retaliation for a Hamas rampage in southern Israeli towns that killed at least 1,300 people this week.
It provided links to two videos posted on social media that it said show "155mm white phosphorus artillery projectiles being used, apparently as smokescreens, marking, or signaling".
Palestinian TV channels have broadcast video in recent days showing thin plumes of white smoke lining the sky over Gaza that they say was caused by such munitions.
Israel's military in 2013 said it was phasing out white phosphorus smokescreen munitions used during its 2008-2009 offensive in Gaza, which drew war crimes allegations from various rights groups.
White phosphorus munitions can legally be used on battlefields to make smoke screens, generate illumination, mark targets or burn bunkers and buildings.
The original article contains 404 words, the summary contains 169 words. Saved 58%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Damn, I just joined Lemmy and already my block list is greater than it ever was on reddit
ITT: a bunch of fucktards that don't know the difference between smoke, flare and chemical weapons.
News flash: white phosphorus is used to create smoke and light with no damage to civilians.
HRW is a organization that does not have a reputation for flying off the handle.
There is not a single sentence in that article that claims that white phosphorus is used as a weapon. It is used for smokescreens and to mark areas in a war.
It isn't supposed to be used in densely populated areas because its extremely dangerous. Even if it wasn't intentionally used as a weapon (which it very obviously was), then its still not excusable because it still causes a lot of harm to civilians.
The issue is that it is not supposed to be used in populated areas because it can still encounter civilians.
How the fuck are you so god damn stupid that you either aren't aware or don't understand there are secondary effects to the use of White Phosphorus? Saying it isn't being used primarily as a weapon is a sloppy justification for the use of chemical weapons by an organized military that is 1000% aware of the horrific effects of using White Phosphorous where there can obviously be spill over into civilian areas.
Really living up to the username there.
I have a chisel. It is used for shaping wood. If I stab people with it, it is now a weapon. You can’t say “it’s not a weapon, it’s meant for shaping wood” about the chisel that I used to stab people.
I could throw a granade right into the town square and tell the cops I was just trying to mark the area. You can choose to believe that I guess but it's a pretty obvious lie since there are methods to mark things that are infinitely less deadly.
They could use something else, but WP is used as a "marker" for the places they will bomb with explosives, and in doing that, they're still launching WP at the thing they are trying to attack
Why would you embarrass yourself like this? You didn't have to.
Genocide
If they actually want to commit genocide, why are they telling the population to leave the dangerous areas, perform roof knocking, etc.?
They told like half of Gaza to clear out in 24 hours, that's well over a million people, it's literally impossible to accomplish that. It's to get deniability when killing civilians.
They also then bombed the evacuation route, lol. Mustache twirling evil.
So Israel wants to kill civilians in Gaza? How ludicrous! They must have been doing exactly that for all these years, every single day! I wonder what happened right now that their drive to kill civilians peaked so much! Palestinians are totally innocent and don't want to kill civilians in Israel though, right? This never happened, or did I miss anything?
Of course they don't. I think you're mistaking Hamas for the general palestinian population
That's only because hamas actively tries to be mistaken for general Palestinian population.
Then don't fall for it
Israel tries, as we can see. Hamas, on the other hand, doesn't care about whether it is military or citizens.
No... they don't actually. Using white phosphorus on a heavily populated city doesn't look like doing your best to pick out the good from the bad, it looks like killing everything that can die.
Want to use one example to win an argument? I could do the same: using a baby doll to try to convince the public that Palestinian babies are getting killed by Israel makes you look like a lying scum instead of a victim.
Bro that means you're literally trying to help Hamas
How exactly?
This is the exact mindset that led to the Internment of Japanese Americans, or the frequent racism against Muslims for years after 9-11(and still going on to this day). People from a place do no represent the place they're from, and a group of terrorists do not represent millions of people.
Come up with a better plan to stop a terrorist group in Gaza then? Without letting them proceed with their violence.
To give the illusion of escape.
Telling them to leave, but not actually letting them go...
Telling them to go to bomb shelters that don't actually exist...
Who is not letting them go to south Gaza? Certainly not Israel. Hamas does actually, because more victims are what they want, since it gives them more power.
Have you never seen a disaster movie? Have you never been stuck in traffic on a holiday weekend where lots of people are traveling? I can't imagine how it's possible that you think a million people are just going to pack up and move, all at once, in a 24 hour window, like that is in anyway a reasonable request. Especially after these people were cut off from from food, water, and fuel (you know, the stuff you need for traveling) almost a week ago. And have all those people go to an area where there isn't space, and still no food, water, or electricity. Common guy really?
Israel is not operating in good faith, that is abundantly clear. This warning is just for the record, so that after Israel commits genocide they can point to that warning and say it's the civilians fault for not leaving like we told them too.
Your probably right about Hamas motives. Fine. But what your ignoring is that the Israeli government views all Palestinians as subhuman, and they intend to exact revenge on all of the people. Hamas and Israel are both happy with Palestinian civilian casualties, but for different reasons. The only differences between them is one side basically admits it's a terrorist organization, while the other side benefits from the political and military support of the west, as well as people like you who are eager to make excuses for outright genocide. Remember, where here in the comments on an article about Israel using white phosphorus in a populated area which is a fucking war crime.
I don't know if they see them as sub human. What makes you think so? They know they are going to kill some, especially given how Hamas uses them as meat shields, and they are obviously accepting that. They still try to minimize the number with roof knocking etc.
That they accept civilian casualties should be the topic of the discussion, not black and white nonsense like everywhere. If we look at history, the same happened in Germany in WW2. How to defeat such terrorists / evil states? Is it possible without killing innocent people? Holy fuck this is not something simple.
Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant:
https://twitter.com/MahaGaza/status/1711322657545765318
Interesting. I swear i've heard that "our victims are animals and not people" rhetoric before. Somewhere. Can't put my finger on it.
If anyone needs a hint: it's the Nazis. If you needed a hint for that, learn.
I mean, it's actually everyone who has ever wanted to do a genocide but yeah there's one group in particular. See, for example: https://www.npr.org/2011/03/29/134956180/criminals-see-their-victims-as-less-than-human
Both israelites and palestinians dislike each others, that is much a fact no need to debate.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
That was not what I was asking. They avoid killing them quite a bit, given the circumstances. Why would they do that if their goal was genocide?
Look up what plausible deniability is. The goal is genocide, but they can't just do genocide without pissing off the world. So they basically imprison 2.2 million people in a space the size of Seattle, destroy entire buildings, shoot unarmed people in Palestinian territory, bulldoze Palestinian homes or outright take them and give them to Israeli settlers. This naturally pisses people off. Hamas fires rockets in response. Israel blows even more shit up in response. They perpetuate the cycle put into motion when the UK stole Palestinian land and gave it to Israel.
Let's not get the sequence of events wrong. Israel faced existential threads from day one of declaring independence, where the surrounding states immediately attacked. There was and is no compromise for Palestine, they want to destroy Israel. That is their official goal, not some secret or conspiracy.
Palestine is not a prison because they are super nice people and Israel is evil. The issue is terrorism. Israel needs to deal with it some way. You can argue that there are better ways, certainly. And that Israel is doing a crap job, like US prisons.
What is Israel supposed to do now? What would your plan be? More than one out of every 10'000 of your fellow people just got murdered. That's like 46'000 people if it were the USA. That is the scale.
If we look at history, for example Nazis, do you think it was right to bomb Germany to the ground?
They have another, competing goal of getting cheap labor out of the Palestinians.
Well, you generally don’t declare to the world you’re doing genocide. You ask for forgiveness, not permission.
They told people to gather in the city center, and then they bombed the city center
There's reports of them bombing the exit corridor.
Source please.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-c8b4fc20e4fd2ef381d5edb7e9e8308c
https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-airstrike-kills-women-children-fleeing-evacuation-route-northern-gaza-2023-10
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/14/gaza-civilians-afraid-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-bombs-hit-only-exit-route-for-gaza-residents-4469430
And an eyewitness report: https://www.972mag.com/gaza-salah-al-din-road/
I didn't bother sourcing since this was all easy to find, but happy to provide.
Thank you kindly.
Hamas bombed the escape routes. They need their human shields.
Source? Or is that just a hunch that you're presenting as fact?
In fact, I'd be wary of saying anything without "reportedly" heavily attached in this kinda situation. There is so much propaganda and misinformation that stating anything as fact is dangerous.
I don't know of one trust worthy source. But you can start reading from here. As this is a very hot topic, follow links, read edit history and discussion. If you can, also read in different languages.
So you're just talking out your ass and presenting as fact.
I asked for sources for your claim because I couldn't find a single source saying it was Hamas, while multiple claimed Israel.
I'm the one actually doing research and being responsible about how I discuss this topic. You presented as fact something you couldn't provide a single source for. I said "there's reports" and was able to provide a handful of reports when asked.
I've read multiple books on the conflict, I know pretty detailed history going back to just prior to 1917. I don't need a wikipedia article that goes back less than 20 years, thanks.
How about if you can, don't present complete bullshit as fact? For starters, at least. Then maybe you can get on some goofy-ass multilingual high horse 🤦♂️
They stopped roof knocking last week.
Telling people to leave when there is nowhere to go, Egypt is refusing to open their border and I doubt Israel is going to open theirs, isn't not wanting to commit genocide: it's a way to save face, to say "well they didn't evacuate so it's their problem."
How? Hamas attacked Israel. So Hamas is committing genocide on itself? Seems like a leopard eating you face move.
We got a big brain over hurrr
You'll find that I'm critical of both sides in this conflict. I believe Israel and Hamas governments are in the wrong, have killed innocent people, and both should be dissolved and held accountable. This is the result of putting extremists in power.
And one of them enjoys unconditional support from the most powerful military in the world. It's completely asymmetrical.
I wonder why nobody supports the Palestine people, not even the Arab countries around. Perhaps because of all the terrorist attacks?
Or racism. Probably racism. One of the biggest driving factors in checks papers ah, genocide.
Israel creates terrorists out of Palestinians by the constant chokehold in the form of an apartheid state. Almost like if you abuse a group of people repeatedly over years, eventually, some of them get the whacky idea to hit back.
They attacked Israel one day after it declared independence. With the, ever since, stated goal of destroying Israel. Not accepting any sort of agreement. Pure hate and destruction.
But Israel are the bad guys because of racism? They are the abusers, because they fight back and don't want to get destroyed? They are certainly not saints by any means, but what a twisted view is that? That is the type of bullshit like Russia had to attack Ukraine because of NATO.
Hey boss, when you have a group of people suddenly declare a holy site and that they're a new country inside an existing country, that's usually met with force of "No, fuck off". Try it in the United States, I can guarantee you it will not last a week. They started the conflict on 'religious grounds' and have been pushing Palestinians out of their homes, by force, while also trying to make themselves synonymous with Jews as a whole so suckers like you think they're the victims. Hell, the United States sent them the Iron Dome infrastructure and they used that protection to do more slaughtering of Palestinians and take more land.
Yes. Israel are the bad guys for using white fucking phosphorus as a weapon. They aren't defending themselves. They're literally stealing homes and land and when Palestinians try to take it back they're killed. Look at the map of their border for the last couple decades. Absolutely fuck Israel. They not only started this conflict but put Palestinians into an open air prison from which they cannot escape. Look up what an apartheid state is because that's the chokehold Israel has had over the Palestinians for years upon years. This is not new. Israel has always been the bad guys and will continue to be. This shouldn't be controversial and it boggles my mind how so many people can be so poorly informed about this conflict and simply take the side of Israel because daddy Biden and the Western countries default to it.
Israel does not mean all jews. Israel does not get a free genocide pass because Jews faced their own genocide 80 years ago. They do not get to use chemical weapons because they themselves were gassed. They do not get to become the monsters they once fought against.
When you put it like that it suggests there's only one group of bad guys. Hamas clearly have their own very bad guys, as we saw last week. Yes, Israel can be brutal and there's a history to this, but it's never going to work to pick just one side and say "You're the baddies."
No to be clear, there's only one group of bad guys. You don't blame victims of abuse for fighting back and as far as I'm concerned this was a proportional response to being ethnically fucking cleansed. Obviously in a civilized world there'd be no need for Hamas but again, Israel is to blame for their entire existence.
You don't think there's anything bad about murdering hundreds of people at a music festival and in their homes?
The IDF are the bigger terrorists.
I think once you start using chemical weapons such as white phosphorus, a chemical agent so controversial Call of Duty had to remove it as a killstreak after backlash, you have lost the plot so hard that anyone willing to defend Israel after this are just transparently ignorant or monsters.
White phosphorus is used in smoke and illumination kits. It is not only used as an incendiary weapon.
It is only legal to be used in smoke or illumination purposes.
It is being used for neither by Israel.
Got a source?
Yeah you're literally commenting on it.
From the article:
The fucking hubris on some of you guys is insane.
And you're fucking retarded.
I don't give two fucks what Reuters could independently verify. We have confirmed reports, images, and videos of children with holes burned into their bodies. They did this shit in 2009 as well. You're on Lemmy but incapable of figuring out a fucking search engine? I don't have patience for morons anymore.
IDF is doing enough shitty stuff already I don't know why you think we need to spread misinformation to muddy the waters. Nothing you added supports your previous statement. I understand there's a lot of anger around but you're playing into their hands
Right now by bombing one of the worlds most densely populated areas with white phosphors.
The White Phosphorus is in the flares, not the bombs.
Flare, bombs. Doesn't matter how you think it's being delivered, it's still being chucked into Gaza in large amounts.
It's a target market.
4 weeks of Napoleonic artillery would level the strip. You need markers like wp and "smart" artillery munitions that can course correct mid flight to avoid flattening the damn city.
Yes, but your implying something that isn't happening. It's bad enough just sticking to actual events.
This is all around horror, we are the worst.
We, the ones who realize this is horror, are not the worst. The worst are those who use chemical weapons and feel justified in doing so. The worst are those who are comfortable murdering innocent people with methods so gruesome they were internationally banned.
Fuck Hamas for the war crimes of murdering innocent civilians. Fuck Israel for the war crimes of murdering innocent civilians, pushing people from their homes, and now using chemical weapons on par with napalm. The only prayers I give, to a god I don't serve, are to Palestine and those just trying to live peaceful lives.
https://piped.video/watch?v=ECscKICzsJ0
Perfect. No notes.
That last sentence pisses me off:
Why the fuck do we give them any military support then? If their reason is true ("we need help to defend ourselves"), there is no reason why they couldn't sign a fucking protocol for minimizing casualties.
Because we want Israel to use wp. Wp rounds in guns are the "tracer" rounds and can be used to correct long distance fire.. And with modern "smart" artillery shells you can have them hit a course correct in flight to hit a "hot spot* that a drone or operative lit up. This allows you to use artillery without having to flatten several city blocks to hit one target.
Without the use of these sorts of rounds artillery would have to fire significantly less accurate rounds. And like in the Ukraine War, Gaza would be reduced to nothing but rubble. Gaza is so small that Nort Korea has the ability to flatten it with its Artillery setup.
Reasonable. But what I mean is: we should completely deny any military help until they vow to uphold the same military standards as we do. And with "vow" I mean "sign". In writing.
War is fucked up anyway so demanding upholding some standards isn't too much to ask in exchange for help, IMO
We do. Our military uses wp rounds too.
The problem is not that wp rounds are used, but how.
Israel isn't firing off whole volleys of wp rounds. That would be prohibitively expensive.
It's because both combative parties(Israel Government, Hamas) are out for nothing but blood. They don't care who's blood it is, they just want it.
Human Rights are not Zionist Rights.
Wait, I thought chemical warfare was a war crime or something.
Look at Russia, it don’t matter because everything is fucked to shit right now in regards to international law
Also look at the US: who gave Ukraine white phosphorus to use against the Russians. I'm not saying I support Russia what so ever but there are international laws that protect human rights and the west clearly thinks it doesn't apply to them
I'm trying to find something about this, but all I can find is articles saying Russia used white phosphorus. Where did you see this?
Maybe it was cluster bombs which are also against international law, but I swear I heard that today either on the news or read it somewhere. I'll keep looking [https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/us-provide-cluster-munitions-ukraine-part-new-military-100836526]
Russia uses cluster bombs too though? Cluster bombs are bad because unexploded munitions are a lot like mines. The fighting is happening in Ukraine, not in Russia, and Ukraine is already littered with mines and unexploded munitions because of Russia's use of both from the start of the war.
On top of that Israel's President Herzog basically admitting to collective punishment but everyone is treating it like just another Saturday in Suburbia.
The thing about laws is...
Well, someone has to enforce them.
So when the people breaking the law are also the people primarily tasked with enforcing it...
You just can't use it to hit people (I don't think you're allowed set buildings on fire to kill people either)
And Israel is on thin ice because they used white phosphorous before in '09 (not claiming they used it illegally because I can't find a source that will say one way or the other)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_munitions#International_law
Article 1 of Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines an incendiary weapon as "any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target". Article 2 of the same protocol prohibits the deliberate use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets (already forbidden by the Geneva Conventions)Depends on what they used it for. White phosphorus is the best known substance for creating smokescreens. It also happens to brutally mutilate people who are directly hit with the stuff.
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
JERUSALEM, Oct 13 (Reuters) - Human Rights Watch on Thursday accused Israel of using white phosphorus munitions in its military operations in Gaza and Lebanon, saying the use of such weapons puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injury.
Israel has been bombarding Gaza in retaliation for a Hamas rampage in southern Israeli towns that killed at least 1,300 people this week.
It provided links to two videos posted on social media that it said show "155mm white phosphorus artillery projectiles being used, apparently as smokescreens, marking, or signaling".
Palestinian TV channels have broadcast video in recent days showing thin plumes of white smoke lining the sky over Gaza that they say was caused by such munitions.
Israel's military in 2013 said it was phasing out white phosphorus smokescreen munitions used during its 2008-2009 offensive in Gaza, which drew war crimes allegations from various rights groups.
White phosphorus munitions can legally be used on battlefields to make smoke screens, generate illumination, mark targets or burn bunkers and buildings.
The original article contains 404 words, the summary contains 169 words. Saved 58%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Damn, I just joined Lemmy and already my block list is greater than it ever was on reddit
ITT: a bunch of fucktards that don't know the difference between smoke, flare and chemical weapons.
News flash: white phosphorus is used to create smoke and light with no damage to civilians.
HRW is a organization that does not have a reputation for flying off the handle.
There is not a single sentence in that article that claims that white phosphorus is used as a weapon. It is used for smokescreens and to mark areas in a war.
It isn't supposed to be used in densely populated areas because its extremely dangerous. Even if it wasn't intentionally used as a weapon (which it very obviously was), then its still not excusable because it still causes a lot of harm to civilians.
The issue is that it is not supposed to be used in populated areas because it can still encounter civilians.
How the fuck are you so god damn stupid that you either aren't aware or don't understand there are secondary effects to the use of White Phosphorus? Saying it isn't being used primarily as a weapon is a sloppy justification for the use of chemical weapons by an organized military that is 1000% aware of the horrific effects of using White Phosphorous where there can obviously be spill over into civilian areas.
Really living up to the username there.
I have a chisel. It is used for shaping wood. If I stab people with it, it is now a weapon. You can’t say “it’s not a weapon, it’s meant for shaping wood” about the chisel that I used to stab people.
I could throw a granade right into the town square and tell the cops I was just trying to mark the area. You can choose to believe that I guess but it's a pretty obvious lie since there are methods to mark things that are infinitely less deadly.
They could use something else, but WP is used as a "marker" for the places they will bomb with explosives, and in doing that, they're still launching WP at the thing they are trying to attack
Why would you embarrass yourself like this? You didn't have to.
Username checks out.