Can the internet ever be fun again?
Or is it just doomed to the vapidity of sterile commercialization?
It feels like everything is serious these days... and 'humor' is only of the commercial variety. Joke communities and circlejerk communities are considered 'hate groups' now. Mods will ban you for sarcastic comments on 'serious' topics, and even on non serious ones, and everything is politicized either by trolls, bots, or whackjobs.
It's boring when you can't joke anymore. I miss my internet communities of 5-10 years ago when you could joke around, and even people of different beliefs and persuasions could laugh at themselves.
Now everything is so deadly serious. It's a complete bummer. And any sort of 'edge' or sarcasm or sardonic remarks are ban-worthy.
I guess it's just poe's law run amok? I feel like mods could tell the difference 10 years ago and the non-jokey psychos were just ignored.
There's a hypothetical phenomenon called the "asshole filter" that some have proposed. Basically, the idea is: hostile, humorless and trolling type people chase away the more pleasant people over time. The end result being, the concentration of assholes is always going up on social media and anonymous online forums, etc.
I don't think it's very scientific. How could you accurately measure such a thing. But I have felt like it was happening as various corners of the internet have grown in popularity.
One way I try to deal with it on here is I aggressively block people. Why let my energy get drained when there's any easy way to never see the jerks again.
I don't know if this tactic will work long term. There are potentially friendlier instances to migrate to, also. Lemmy is an interesting ongoing experiment.
Hope you hang in. Completely understand if you don't want to.
I've been thinking about social mechanics in online environments for a few years, and this arsehole filter definitively sounds true for me. I think that it has a twofold mechanism:
So arseholes have a higher re-incidence and proliferation than nice people.
I also think that this applies to assumptive/dumb/disingenuous vs. smart, and entitled/whiny vs. contributive people. If that's correct then the phenomenon is likely wider, and we could actually measure it for something else. It wouldn't prove that the arsehole filter is true, but it would strengthen the hypothesis.
True, but this isn't a natural phenomenon, it's a result of engagement-based ranking algorithms. Assholes attract engagement by starting flame wars and the like, so front page algorithms push them to the top.
Before social media, forums were popular and their sorting was simply by most recently updated. I think this is part of what made the internet more fun: instead of websites trying to guess what you would like most, you were given a practically random, diverse view of everything.
I think it may be both. Engagement algorithms are definitely part of the problem. Agree it was far more fun when it was random / organic interactions.
However, I also think it's kind of like a party that starts out like a book club, it gets more interesting, and then louder and more obnoxious folks hear about this, and they keep showing up.
By the end it's a completely different vibe, and the original folks are long gone. Have experienced it numerous times over the long years, before the sorting and engagement algorithms joined the fray.
I know this comes off as kind of hipsterish. But, most obnoxious people don't realize they are obnoxious. And confronting them seldom does anything but escalate the situation. So leaving is the mature choice. Therefore... mature folks leave, and the forum's relative aggregate immaturity goes up.
One way to fight it is with very strict moderation, and I have seen that work. But it's labor-intensive and requires moderators who are highly dedicated and fair, and don't "power trip". I'm not a huge fan of that approach overall. But in the right context (like academic discussions) it can be pretty good.
Same. IRL and online communities I have experienced this. Obnoxious people come in, take over, and then make everything about them... only people who want to be around that are other obnoxious people so things become a circlejerk.
not really hipsterish... but very common IME with any community that hipster types of people start joining. They start policing others because of their raging insecurity and need to be seen as cool.
I think that the ranking algo is a catalyst, but the underlying phenomenon is natural, due to two counterpoints:
I think that this is important because, if the Arsehole Social Shift (A.S.S.)* is a natural phenomenon, just avoiding a ranking algo isn't enough; you need active measures to counter it.
It might also have to do with community size, given that everyone has some triggers that makes them behave like arseholes, and they're more likely to be triggered in larger communities.
*sorry for the silly coinage. I couldn't help it.
Yup. There were some Reddit communities I left because of the population of assholes or "griefers". There seemed to be a disproportionate amount in certain gaming communities that lead me to believe age is a factor.
Thankfully, there were usually enough people leaving to create an alternate subreddit! Lol
Some of the alternate subs were really good. And some became worse than the thing they left behind. Ye olde circle of reddit.
I always find it weird when someone says they can't joke on the internet. I joke on the internet all the time, and I've been banned from 0 forums, Discord servers, or other social media groups. 1 subreddit, but that was appealed, and I wasn't even joking when I got that ban, lol
I've never seen the internet as some stuffy place where I can't joke around, or where I have to watch my tongue, and I've been using the internet for over 20 years.
I'm not going to accuse anyone of anything, though I do know that some people and communities have "old boys' clubs" or whatever they're called where their sense of humour tends to be saying things that shouldn't be said in polite company...things like racist or sexist jokes, rape jokes, etc.
The whole world isn't one big "old boys' club", and not everyone wants to see that crap. A big part of comedy is knowing your audience.
TL;DR, The internet is still fun. If it's not fun for you, then it might be your perspective that needs adjustment.
Yeah. I've had exactly 0 issues in the past decade. The only people I tend to get op's complaints from are usually lamenting that they can't use the n-word or hate on marginalized groups anymore and hide behind "it's a joke lmao". Op was too vague to actually say what exactly they mean by sanitization, but it IS eerily similar.
I have this neighbor. He is like 70+ yo, after a stroke and a heart attack, barely talks and walks..
Somehow, this guy still has some slapping sense of humor. How come he pulls it off and most people I briefly checked online history of can’t and more often than not are the same people talking “everyone is just too serious nowadays”, “no-one can get a good joke anymore, huh?” or “why they banned me? Again!”..
I am not saying this about OP, but I am starting to notice a trend.
You are a) a very tame person, and b) quick to establish yourself on the right side of the pitchfork mob.
THIS attitude is what's killing the internet. Anyone who is punished must have been guilty. Fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
(is my ban incoming?)
Not what I said nor implied.
I can know that something happens sometimes without accusing someone of doing that thing...lol
Blame the algorithms.
They intentionally defy normal human social behavior to pit you against people you're more likely to disagree with in a major irreconcilable way, prompting people to polarize as potential middle grounders are pushed in one direction or the other through constantly being fed the absolute most aggressive examples of "the other side" that are currently active.
It's like video game matchmaking but the slurs actually rank you up.
In normal human interaction you'd be able to just write the crazies off and stop talking to them, social media is your boundary hating aunt who refuses to accept you have a right to go NC over irreconcilable differences and keeps trying to force reconciliation at every family event despite neither of you having any want for communicating with the other, then acts shocked and horrified when actually succeeding in forcing a conversation just leads to another blow up because some people are just better off not speaking.
Also there are bots going around posing as human users with ridiculous opinions. And there are so many of them, those ridiculous opinions can get upvoted and look popular.
Aren't you a "free market capitalist" conservative libertarian that argues on socialist/leftist communities? Are you seriously surprised that you go on a predominantly leftist/left-leaning site and see leftist opinions being upvoted more and right-wing conspiracy nutjob comments being downvoted more?
yeah lemmy definite feels like that. full of crazies who won't relent until you tell them they are right and you are wrong and you are horrible evil person for disagreeing with them over something like bicycle lanes.
but there are some middle ground folks, thankfully.
I don't really know where you're getting the idea that nobody can joke anymore on serious matters. I see it all of the time, go look at Reddit for example and browse r/news. There's always at least 50 people making punchline jokes on otherwise serious matters.
The problem is when people expect their jokes to fly in the faces of communities that explicitly state that they don't want that crap around. Then when the people who joke around are offended, in come cries about freedom of this and freedom of that. Dude, it's one community, cut it out and go elsewhere. Not everyone should have to tolerate your low-hanging fruit kind of humor.
And a lot of the time too, is that people absolutely DO NOT know when something is stepping over the line. It's the fault of the individual for not making the line apparent, but when they do, there's a point where joking is not warranted.
I think he's talking about off coulor jokes
It's not one community though, that's the whole point, it's spreading to the whole internet.
Point still stands though.
If nobody finds your shit funny, they don't find it funny. It isn't because they're a "snowflake" or that they "don't get it". Not everywhere and everyone needs to hear your shitty jokes because you feel you need to "lighten up" the world.
People just want to amuse themselves and blanket it as if it's supposed to be some positive contribution. Who're you trying to fool?
True, there's a blurry boundary between censorship imposed by companies and self-imposed by new generations. That was my first reaction to the headline actually, if you take companies out of it, PEOPLE are just more uptight than they used to be.
Probably a chicken and egg thing really.
Some pockets here and there are still fun. It's just hard to find them.
https://y.yarn.co/c75eadfc-52eb-497f-ad7b-dc774195903a_text.gif
If the internet isn't fun for you, find a community on the internet that you actually enjoy being in. Easier said than done, I know, but the internet is a big place.
Smaller every day though, that's the problem
exactly. stats back this up. internet was far more diverse 10 years ago, now vast majority of traffic goes to a handful of platforms.
Its the polarisation of the masses to the point they no longer wish to interact in a civil manner when disagreeing. I remember the days when u could talk to people who are fundamentally opposed to ur ideology and have a civil discussion. Now everyone jumps at the oppertunity to label everything as something awful without a single attempt to engage in good faith.
same. you could disagree and joke about it. now it's all demonization, labels, etc.
i feel like you could share an experience/thought and get interesting responses... now it's just people trying to pigeonhole you and decide if you are 'on their side' or not. you could make a joke about a bad date and people would be like 'haha same' now it's 'why do you hate x', 'clearly you are mentally ill', 'you are clearly evil'. very little discussion... just judgement and hate.
Its an interesting idea i been thinking about something simmillar for a while now actually. If u via proof of identity allow the creation of a "root identity" (a crypto certificate) that can create other identities under it that can be traced by the initial ifentity authority then everyone is simply just a private key that can eb used to authenticate any service u want to implement it for even different federated services can use it instead of a login. U keep the anonymity allow people to have multiple accounts and can garantee that 1 person only gets 1 vote and that all people ur talking to are a real person.
Yes it can be fun again but it will never be fun in the way you remember. My experience with the internet and the ways in which it was fun to me are likely different from the way it was fun for you.
I think a seperation from algorithms and corporate ownership of internet spaces will be a huge step towards making the internet more fun. As usual capitalism ruins the experience lol.
Give it time
The old school internet was fun because we were in charge. No one would put Peanut Butter Jelly Time or Look at My Horse on TV and let it play in its entirety. No one would print rotten.com on paper and sell it at the corner. For the first time ever in a lot of people's experience, you could publish and say whatever you wanted. Then the reality of hosting costs set in, and the government learned that the internet existed and decided what it needed was outlawed encryption, and long story short there was a long self selection process where only the assholes wound up in charge again.
But now it's coming back. I think everyone's a little bit shell shocked back to the Facebook way (e.g. screaming about the mods and how unfair, instead of starting their own instances / communities, e.g. bickering about what "the rules" need to be and when to put content warnings and whatnot). I think it'll equalize as the realpolitik of people generally running their own servers replaces the realpolitik of it being just a bunch of assholes running the servers and us being helpless and no escape from them.
I don't know exactly what culture it will equalize to, but I definitely feel like it will be a big step back towards the old internet. We just haven't gotten there yet.
You're on a network where the majority has strict limits on the topics you're allowed to poke fun at. Commercialization may have started the trend, but an eternal September of humorless cunts are keeping it going far and wide.
You had me in the first half, not going to lie.
there's the indieweb movement, smaller sites trying to have fun, like neocities
Am seriously considering founding a not-for-profit to provide an ad free / spam free / bot free basic community. Would cost a dollar or two a month. Chief differences to the lemmy would be one account per person via proof of identity signup (I think this would improve behaviour and discourage spam), a single authority to tackle voting abuse and other things useful to be not federated.
Aside from that revenue would cover technical staff costs + hosting and the rest could go to some good cause. There's be no ads. No data selling. Not conflict of interest over how the platform evolves. Would be open source. Adults only.
Id keep it as basic as possible to try and capture the spirit of 90s fora. Am not even sure I'd allow inline images or vid.
Thoughts?
Something Awful charged :10bux: for membership and was a pillar of good moderation. It works.
They were amazing pioneers of shitposting and circlejerking but some people considered them something of a hate group for their callouts of specific subcultures. I'm suggesting that aspect of things that OP is describing isn't exactly new.
But yeah, agreed, the swift, stark ban policy was very effective in creating a "civil" society there - idiots showed up to fuck around, bam hope they've got 10 more bucks if they want to try again under a different account.
God I'd kill for a place with no trolls, politics, shit posts, where your allowed to disagree and have spirited discussions on topics but mods would step in before it becomes an argument.
I feel like everywhere you go online nowadays there's a `well ackwchullly' type in the corner. I'd love a place people can get together share ideas and joke around.
Long story short, if you build it they will come.
good luck there. especially with determining what is or isn't politics in the first place
amen. i feel like there used to be a barrier. now people get up in my face for drinking a diet coke, because it's a 'political act' because trump drinks diet coke, so therefore i must support trump.
It's insanity.
Yet another example of the general enshittification of the Internet. I don't see it getting better anytime soon
I've been part of quite a lot of communities ranging from old electronics to silly song contests to cartoons with sentient objects (you can tell by my profile picture) to vidya games. Almost all of them have been incredibly fun at first, but eventually turned into shadows of their former selves. It's honestly really depressing.
That and we also change. What we find fun now won't necessarily be fun in a year, even if everything stays the same.
That too.
Lots of niche forums are like what you say. Wider interest platforms like Lemmy try to be everything for everyone, so have to be more bland. In the further reaches of the net you can still make fun of Javascript as much as you want and no one will yell at you.
I still don't understand why people make fun of javascript I mean it's just a language and every language has its ups and downs. Why specifically people targeting javascript. Is it because it's popular?
I have heard a lot of people criticize specific aspects of the language that they deem to be bad design, especially the type system. Its probably mostly because its popular though.
Maybe the things you think are jokes are offensive to other people? Watch a movie from 20, 30, 40 years ago and see how those jokes held up - lots of racist, homophobic, sexist stuff. I'm not saying that's what you're looking for, but just that some jokes don't age well. When you know better, do better.
I do know better. I know about diversity and acceptance, and taking it easy, and living and letting live, and to each his own, and being a traveler, and having an open mind, and ribbing, and separating the important stuff from the unimportant stuff.
I know things that are so much better than getting offended over more and more things each year. I know better, so I do better.
I don’t get offended over jokes because I have contempt for that behavior.
same.
If you did, you'd know it isn't about "being offended by more every year" - its recognizing that something is offensive to others and adjusting because some of us have better shit to do than being rude cause its "fun."
If you can't be fun without low hanging fruit gay jokes, you're probably not actually that fun. 🤷
No. I value fun. I myself choose often not to be offended when I realize others aren’t trying to offend me. I almost never get offended. I know it’s possible to live this way. I know that others’ jokes aren’t a threat to me.
You don’t seem to realize that a thing being offensive isn’t an objective fact. Offensiveness is in the eye of the offended. That gives power to the offended, to solve their own problem.
Again, if you can't be "fun" without offending people - You aren't fun, you're a dick.
Volume. A long time ago, ten replies was huge, not a thousand.
Join the communities, follow the people, and start conversations where the world is still small, you'll find what you are looking for.
The filter is your friend, social sites are not the only sites (federated ones included), and there are many destinations to participate as long as you dont hunt for exposure to the masses.
Edit: Friendly reminder that IRC, web comics, and niche forums still exist.
Corporations, governments and very political users has sterilize the Internet. You can’t be edgy/tell edgy jokes without being called racist, sexist and so on. Also the Internet is being walled garden by said parties. Due them closing down sites. By removing the ways the sites can keep themselves going, like cutting off payment processing companies. If the mob cries or/and screams hard enough. They can remove you and web sites from the net. Look what happened to Kiwi Farms. Cloudflare had Kiwi Farms back. But the mob cried, so Cloudflare dropped Kiwi Farms.
Can the Internet ever be fun again? Will, it's going to be hard to go back to the old Internet. Look at who we are fight against. Can it be done? Yes, but it's going extremely hard.
You can be edgy and not be called racist. What you can't be is racist and not be called racist, and I think that's a good thing.
Bro the statement you link literally points out that the site's users started conspiring to do crimes against the people running the pressure campaign.
Where's the proof?
EDIT So people are for an company who removed DDoS protection for a web site without proof of wrong doing. Just because a mob of people cried and screamed about said site. Really? That's just sad.
What places have you looked?
Love this post
My feeling is that this is temporary. Currently there is a big fight about what is offensive and what is not. It is only logical that, when that public debate is still ongoing, people will have less tolerance towards offensiveness: we haven't reached a consensus yet on what we should tolerate in our online language. We as a species are not used to the responsibility of anonymous communication and the repercussions it has on how we act and perceive that communication.
Also, movements and changes most of the time go to the other extreme first, before landing in the middle somewhere. That's just how change often (not always) works.
That, or you're getting old and you're doing the "back in my day" thing. Could be that too. The world changes, language changes, jokes change. It's just part of life man.
Edit: welp, this apparantly is a hot take, when I thought it was quite neutral. I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up against offensive behaviour (my view is the opposite). It's that coming to a sensible consensus about certain topics as a society takes time. It takes time to convince people to change their ways, but it also takes time to not fight for extremes when you're having new talking points. Everything is balance. But in my attempt to keep it short I apparantly didn't convey much of that message.