What's the best reason to vote for Trump?
I'm not from the US, so I'm curious why Americans still wants him back. I always see him as a bad mouthed guy and was worse when he lost in 2020. But feel free to change my mind. This question is also for non-trump supporters who can think of one thing (if you can) on why he's good for the top position.
You are a multimillionaire that has plenty of options on leaving if things get rough, but in the interim you can look forward to tax breaks and more lax controls/protections over whatever industry you may be involved in.
As for the rest of them, he's flying the right colored flag and that's about it.
the american right thrives on propaganda and boy howdy do they have a lot of it.
Immigrants? simultaneously lazy welfare moochers and will steal all jobs forever
women? sluts with no self control that must abstain themselves always, except for you of course
queer people? pedophile groomers that hate you specifically
black people? Racism was solved 100 years ago according to these white guys! now they're claiming that it's systemic?!
Any and all political opponents? Corrupt. Monetarily? Characterally? Spiritually? yes.
A lot of people are very religious and oppose abortion. And that is literally the only issue they care about. Trump stacked the Supreme Court and got abortion made illegal in many states. They love him for that.
Some people think he's stronger on the economy. They just think "look at all this inflation we've had under Biden! It wasn't like this when Trump was in control." Of course they can't think far enough to realize that perhaps a global pandemic caused this inflation and there was little that Biden could have done to stop it.
I think those are the big two reasons. But then there is the propaganda. People are made to believe that crime is running rampant despite the fact that violent crime is actually relatively low compared to in the past. Illegal immigrants are vilified as criminals who are bringing drugs and crime into the country while taking advantage of government benefits. The propaganda says that Democrats are the cause of these problems, and Trump is the solution. Tons of people fall for it. And Democrats are really bad at counter-propaganda.
My aunt is religious and votes mainly on abortion. She's voted republican for years. She didn't vote last time Trump was the nominee because she couldn't stand him and couldn't vote democrat because abortion.
Which is particularly painful because Trump overheated the economy before the global pandemic even got off the ground. It's a sort of miracle things aren't worse than they are in that regard.
Having formerly been a rural Republican, there is no good reason to vote Trump. I mean that from the bottom of my heart. People vote for him because they're some mixture of uninformed, misinformed, psychotic, or psychopathic. The broader GOP party is fully culpable, too.
Let's explore some profiles:
17-year-old "lel kek" 4chan/8chan nihilist troll who just wants to act like a dumbass and think Trump is so cooolll.
Grandpa who never left his home town. Never been on an airplane. Watches fox news 24/7.
Your crazy uncle who listens to right wing radio while commuting to work and has a major temper problem, loves his compensatory guns that give him a sense of agency in his sad pathetic life. He loves to blame immigrants for his own problems.
The racist sexist meth head or anyone overly exposed to lead.
The good Christian church goer wrapped around abortion and contrary to the pillar of individual freedom is desperately trying to arbitrate their own sense of morality on others.
The gullible uninformed coworker that doesn't tune into politics all that much but they're a crowd pleaser and all his coworkers talk about is how great Trump is, so must be true. They're not educated all that much and so struggle to use critical-thinking to discern truth from falsehoods.
The grifting pillow salesmen who recognized dumb people are easily grifted so starts feeding the choir and selling them merchandise in one form or another. Bannon fits this.
Deadbeats who love fake it til you make it and see that it worked for Trump. They love that their lifelong habits of bullying are validated by him and so feel empowered.
Funny you mention pillow salesmen: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/15/mypillow-ceo-expand-lindell-tv-network-trump
The people who want to elect DT are either extremists, cult followers, uninformed / misinformed, or corporate or political anarchists. There is no one of sound or informed mind who would ever vote for him. He has proven to be bad for the people, the economy, the nation, and the world.
We live in a time where instant access to ideas dilutes and twists reality. The majority of people don't really know what they're voting for nor do they really care what the ramifications of their decisions mean.
I live in a "blue" east coast city. I read news from generally unbiased sources and I engage with others in forums like this. I can't tell you the number of people I've come across, mostly but not exclusively from outside my city, who have unwavering opinions about something they've proven to know very little about (this is not exclusive to MAGA or republicans). I had a conversation with someone I've known most my life about Dr. Fauci. He thought he should be sent to prison. When I asked why he thought that he didn't really have a coherent response and ended with, "well I guess I don't really pay that close attention to the news".
Today's politics is more similar to a sporting event than it is about the democratic process. It's more about engaging with your team's fans on social media than it is understanding the philosophies and mechanisms of government.
That's not what political anarchism is.
follow up with what it is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism?useskin=vector
Or they just, I don't know, like his particular promises, such as a good economy and war with Palestine.
Exactly. Promises that heβs verifiably uninterested in putting any effort towards because: see above.
He will maintain the social order of your community.
Women will lose their rights in a variety of ways, making them dependent on their men.
Public Education will become worse, keeping the economic status of families where they are.
Police will be allowed to be as corrupt as they want to be and will be able to oppress disadvantaged groups as they want to.
I'd guess a majority of people are dissatisfied with the status quo, and Trump represents chaos, change. It's not a rational decision, but whatever your reason for dissatisfaction, Trump is about as far from a conventional establishment candidate as you could find.
I'm not suggesting, at all, that Trump would fix any of these issues; in fact, he'd exacerbate many of them. But Biden, Hillary, and now Harris are the ones who'd continue many of them. And I'm also not saying that all of these are real issues, but his base thinks they are:
The country just isn't as good as it used to be, and it's not because of your behaviors - shopping at Walmart, shopping at Amazon, joining Facebook and using GMail and Google search, driving your gas-guzzling hemi pickup (which is actually a work truck because you helped your buddy move his couch once) - it's because of some indistinct them: immigrants, politicians, corporations, gays, blacks, Millenials, The Media. And here's a guy who says he's going to fix all that, and boy did he piss off all those people who represent everything you hate. He turned the Supreme Court around! Things were finally going the way you wanted.
And above all of that are the Christians. They've been indoctrinated to believe in hierarchy: woman above child, man above women, and God above man. Having a king just feels right, an earthly authority who, with a wave of a pen, can turn the tide against progressives. I honestly believe that having a dictator - a sympathetic dictator - is a subconscious desire for most people brought up as Christians. They believe in hierarchy; it feels right.
That is a very good explanation right there. Very comprehensive, emphatic.
I would love to hear a design, a plan from the progressive left to solve these problems, a narrative that somehow manages to adress these fears these issues and offer another way for "disgruntled right wing conservative Christian average joe" and make left ideas more attractive and understandable to them. Because in the end, a progressive left has better solutions to problems than the right. Unfortunately it seems as though there is no such thing in the U.S.
Thank you.
Many of these things aren't really "problems." For example,
However, if there's one place Hillary really messed up, it was further alienating blue collar, fly-over country Americans. She mainly appealed to the coasts, and white collar workers. Kamala is going to have to double down on Biden's efforts to win back the Unions, and really appeal to blue collar. Promising them new, better paying jobs in emerging technology sectors; new training without forcing them into higher-ed white collar office jobs. Not everyone wants to sit an office and work on a computer. But you can still promise to bring construction and manufacturing jobs for things like windmills and solar panels. Promise to put every effort into opening opportunities maybe not in exactly the same industry, but the same type of work. Lots of folks like working with their hands; if Kamala is smart, she'll campaign on bringing new jobs that pay higher, with high skill overlap to what they're doing now.
I honestly don't think people like being coal miners. But they might like that lifestyle: hard, reliable work with consistent, reliable hours, and the ability to live in rural communities where their neighbors are people they work with and know.
Cops like prosecutors. While there are absolutely bad cops, and bad cop culture, when police work in the neighborhoods where they live, they tend to be compassionate and want to resolve issues. Problems start when you bring cops who live in the suburbs and have them police inner city neighborhoods: they don't know the community, and the community doesn't know them. When the majority of their interactions with a community are with criminal elements, they start to see everyone in the community as a likely criminal. Plus, there are often race issues, as the suburb and inner city demographics widely differ. She could focus on that, although she really wouldn't have any direct control over local law enforcement policies, she could campaign to have task forces working on incentivize good policy.
I certainly don't have all the answers, but I think Harris's path to success is to try to appeal to as many sectors as possible (as I've described in examples above) without sacrificing the core liberal value of tolerance. She can't win over the intolerant directly, but she might be able to convince some people that they'd rather have economic growth and opportunities than to stick it to some brown people.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to add something substantial to the political discussion. I think designing and discussing actual plans to improve peoples situation in a constructive manner is what's needed.
The greatest danger lies in simplification of multi-faceted political issues and appealing to strong emotions such as fear and anger.
It'd be nice to see more constructive, balanced, respectful dialogue.
Most people I know support Trump because they perceive him as a "strong man", which they value in a leader. They see Democrats as "soft". They his wealth, his treatment of women, his treatment of employees, and his reaction to being shot as signs of strength. Another reason is they see him as being more supportive of their one true religion. He comes across as the chosen one and closer to God than most.
This is the greatest hypocracy for which I cannot forgive Christian Republicans.
This is a man who, by his deeds and unrepentance for them, is the most unchristian of any candidate he's faced. The only time he's held a Bible was when waving it for a photo op, or when at a rally for Christians. He has set foot in any church in his adult life probably about the same number of times a I've read the Bible - which is few, but not many. And this, compared to men and women who attend their's regularly.
He is the most un-Christian candidate to have campaigned for the Presidency in probably the entire history of the US. And these hypocritical bastards worship him like the golden calf.
What's funny to me is that people are drawing connections from the Bible and the signs of the anti Christ to him. Lol.
Hey, I'll admit, that little boy brought up by the fundamentalist father; who once Christmas asked for a leather case for his Bible; who really did read the Bible cover to cover, old and new testaments, multiple times - that little boy is looking at Trump's base and seeing those warnings about the anti-Christ. It's not Trump. He's a foul person, but there are worse. It's how his base is reacting to him that makes me think of the anti-Christ.
There have been plenty of cults of personality, but this isn't another Pope, where, yeah, you kiss his ring but it's God you worship. No, his base worship him. I'm an atheist now, but that Christian child in me is still a little wigged out.
I think the bible even warns them to be on the lookout for charlatans like him. I can't remember the quote/chapter/verse tho.
Because they hear strong man and don't realize it's really strongman.
Accerlerationists want to burn it all
Mental illness.
You think he's a messianic figure who will save us from the Satanic baby-killing cabal.
It would be nice for someone else to take the spotlight in the clown show.
Sincerely, the UK.
I'm not saying it's a good reason, but people in flyover country get resentful when coastal elites don't even try to hide how they see them as degenerate inbred racist morons and want to exert ever-increasing control over their lives and impose their values.
Pardon me for asking, but how exactly would voting Trump help with that?
Like thinking you need to go on a diet so you decide to go for a nice fat dΓΆner roll. Seems counterproductive.
It won't, but it clearly annoys those damn smug city folk.
It won't, really, but he says he'll fight against the elites.
I live in Montana. Trust me, the people here see everyone else as inbred degenerates and want to exert ever increasing control over their lives π
Foreign powers (church or another country) basically paying to make you think you should do it
You're a rich, white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, single, heterosexual, cisgender, male, incel and you have a worthless life and nobody loves you and you think it'd be neat to turn a democratic state into a fascist one.
ulterior motives.
I agree with the people here that there aren't any.
The closest to a 'good reason' is that some people want certain policy outcomes that Trump has promised, not all of which are in and of themselves morally wrong. What's wrong is that they believe that the ends justify the means, which they quite famously do not.
Simple. Trump's basically a cult leader.
He promises quick personal gain at the expense of others. If I was selfish and above the poverty line I'd probably vote for him so that my tiny portfolio raises a couple of points more in the next 4 years.
Crickets, tumbleweedsβ¦. Sounds about right.
Being a white billionaire.
rural poor who were forgotten by Republicans, actively hated on by Democrats
Hilarious π€£π€£π€£
As someone also not American I can think of some good reasons. But I'd rather hear Americans, they are the ones who vote for him
Love to hear them....
He's good at providing hope. False hope, but that's hard to admit if all other candidates seem hopeless.
Especially for the blue collar working class and the rural poor who were forgotten by Republicans, actively hated on by Democrats. Also pretty much disenfranchised by the winner takes all electoral system.
He didn't manage to destroy the country in the first term due to the constant opposition from Democrats. That not obvious at first sight. If you were completely new to US politics he'd just seem loud and vaguely innefective.
"Especially for the blue collar working class and the rural poor who were forgotten by Republicans, actively hated on by Democrats."
Yikes-ee-ola π
That Kool aid must be delicious π
I'm chronically online, and have seen the way anyone not in the "urban progressive" crowd is talked about in American politics discussion. Would you vote for the option which continually insults your appearance, origins, dialect and arrogantly dismisses any legitimate concerns you may have.
I haven't experienced any of that but wherever dude. π€·
Maybe the working man should vote for the party that wants to make unions illegal and bring back child labor and the 7 day work week.
Jesus wept.
There really isn't. Is just that Joe Biden was such a bad joke of a president, Trump was a funny joke of a president. Lesser of 2 evils scenario.
His promise to end the war in Ukraine, thus saving hundreds of thousands of lives.
Seems like a good reason to me :)
You claim that the Ukrainian government are Nazis π€‘
Opinion disregarded.
Ah yes. With their Jewish leader whose relatives died in the Holocaust....
They definitely drank the Russian vodka...
So, what exactly are you trying to say?
I thought the narrative 'if you are a Jew you can't be a nazi' stopped after the events in Gaza, where people (left leaning people I think) accuse Netanyahu of being new Hitler and Israel of genocide or something like that, or do we still use it?
What I'm trying to say, and I could say in a half dozen ways, is there is no evidence Ukraine is nazi state, but yes valid point: Bibi is a piece of shit, but I also don't think he's antisemitic as Russia claims Zelenskyy is.
There is, in fact, much more evidence that Russia is.
Please see my other comment in this thread, it would be easier to discuss under one comment than to split it in multiple :)
Well, I guess one can find a reason to accuse almost anyone of almost anything, so let's compare the evidence against current ukr government and current rus government (but again let's do that in that other thread please, I already gave examples of nazism from current government there).
I'm not really sure what thread you're talking about, but I'm content with where I am here :)
There are documentaries showing a rise of right-wing neo-nazi groups in Russia as early as 2000s. Aleksandr Dugin is a self-described neo-nazi and essentially Putin's right-hand Rasputin. The entire culture of Russia has become heavily anti-immigrant. Wagner itself had nazi origins.. Putin is committing now just an attempted genocide in Ukraine but also one in Russia as he purges ethnic minorities to the front-lines while he keeps those middle-class in St. Petersburg and Moscow largely sheltered from the war. Forgetting the fact that Russia now has one of the worst ratings for Corruption and Journalistic Transparency in the world, matching the likes of the Taliban in Afghanistan β LOL.
Oh and of course Putin took a page out of Hitler's book when he invaded Poland under the false pretenses of protecting Ethnic German and invaded a sovereign neighboring nation. Nothing tops the wrongful, aggressive invasion of a neighboring state as they try to annex territory and commit documented war crime after documented war crime.
Yeah yeah, I know people talk of Azov, but that's <1% of UAF. It would be no different if the shit-stains under The Base, Oathkeepers, 1%ers, Proud Boys, Boogaloo boys all joined banners alongside the rest of the country to fight against a foreign invader, such as Russia.
If you're a Russian or Russian sympathizer, understand the majority of the world both population and economics-wise is not on your side. You're relegating yourself to being global pariah akin to North Korea. A laughing stock.
Ok, sure :)
I never heard of this guy, so thanks for the info. He doesn't seem to be anyone really important though, I quickly read some info about him and he just seems to be an "influencer" to me if I may use this word, not sure why you consider him Putin's right hand..
Are you saying that being anti-immigrant is somehow equal to being a nazi? I haven't yet heard such a take.
Anyway, I found this article from UN (which was published just 3 years ago, I don't think it can be considered outdated already?) which says Russia is actually in top 5 countries by the amount of immigrants.
https://news.un.org/ru/story/2021/01/1394392
Yeqh, this one I can believe.
Well, if you can call this a genocide, then I can definitely call the kidnappings of people from the streets and forcefully sending them to die to frontlines by Zelensky's regime a genocide. And a Ukrainian right now is more likely to die from that, than from some shelling or otherwise becoming a civil casualty.
I'm not sure which exactly index you are talking about (I'm not denying it though, this seems quite plausible to me), but I'm sure that if this index is in any way reliable, Ukraine would be somewhere quite close, there is just as much corruption and almost just as little journalistic freedom.
Well yeah his remark about Poland in that interview was indeed stupid.
Do you think Ukrainian side does not commit "war crimes"? Civilians in Belgorod (and other Russian neighbouring cities) are regularly dying from Ukrainian attacks.
Yeah this is one of my arguments :)
Glad we can at least agree that those guys are nazis. What do you think about Zelensky (head of state!) making and publishing photos with their commander? Does it look like endorsment of nazism from the highest level of government?
Second question, what do you think about Stepan Bandera?
I am Ukrainian actually. I do not sympathize with Russia, I think everybody is equally bad (except for those who at least try to finish the war, which right now is Trump and Orban).
Read further then. Familiarize yourself with the Foundations of Geopolitics, the very geopolitical playbook Putin is carrying out as we speak.
Immigration occurring != Russians liking immigration. It's a convenient scapegoat for the right-wing extremists in the nation no differently than here in the United States.
https://jamestown.org/program/anti-immigrant-sentiments-in-russia-lurk-behind-deep-social-issues/
Of course if you're in a state of war, things change. Even the US clamped down on the press during WWII. The stats for Russia however were pre-war, however. Yes, Ukraine is low on the list, but above Russia.
Does that make Ukraine Nazis? Is there any evidence whatsoever that Zelenskyy himself as a Jew and whose ancestors died in the Holocaust is, himself, an anti-Semite or Nazi-sympathizer? Does that justify Putin's aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation just like Hitler did with Poland? Any reasonable person would say of course not.
Yeah, I think they probably have. I also think the Allies of WWII committed war crimes, too, but it doesn't change that their side was the more righteous cause. I also think, since you cited the UN, that all evidence points to Russia committing the vast majority of war crimes.. Naturally, proportionality matters. Let's keep in mind that those Citizens of Belgorad or Ukraine's Crimea would not be hit if Russia decided to end its imperial efforts. So naturally, any death in this war is a direct result of Russia beginning said war.
I already explained this which went ignored: Ever hear the adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"?
I call bullshit :) β I'd love proof of your Ukrainian nationality; I otherwise do not believe it. Boy, are you in the deep, deep minority if you are. Orban and Trump can definitely settle this war tomorrow β by giving Putin what he wants and expecting Ukraine to capitulate lol.
Well, obviously I can't read it in a reasonable amount of time to continue this discussion, so maybe instead you would be so kind to tell me what exactly from that book makes you say that?
So, you must like immigration in order to not be nazi? This seems like an even weirder take for me, really... I think it is mostly western countries that are actively supporting immigration, it doesn't really happen on a similar scale in the rest of the world.. Middle east, most of Asia (Japan, South Korea, etc.), are they all nazis by that logic?...
So as I said, nearby.
Your previous paragraph is talking about corruption and journalist freedom, I've never said that this is what makes Ukrainian government Nazis....
Well, posting photos with Azov brigade's commander (that even you agreed are nazi), seems to be a good indicator of being a nazi-supporter, wouldn't you say?
What about him supporting Stepan Bandera (you still didn't say what you think about that great guy btw), another nazi?
But where did I say that??
It was not even me who brought nazism into this discussion, some guy read my other comments and tried to somehow invalidate my opinion using the fact that I say that Ukrainian government is nazi (btw it's a fallacy and doesn't work like that), I've never said that it justified anything, I'm just arguing that nazism in Ukrainian government is very real and widespread. Please don't put words in my mouth :)
Well, we will know how much war crimes were commited by each side after the war, now it's just propaganda from both sides.
Anyway, saying that Ukraine is more righteous to commit war crimes is not cool and dehumanizing.
Why stop at that, we might go even further back and say that there would be no war at all if there were no nazism in Ukraine..
Anyway, going back into history and pointing fingers can be done indefinitely, so this is not very productive IMHO. I prefer to discuss what is happening right now.
And anyway, I did not say that Russia is not to blame for the war. It doesn't make it the only one who is responsible for what is happening right now. It is not Putin thanks to whom people are afraid to leave their homes because they might get forcefully sent to the army, it's Zelensky.
So, would I be correct to rephrase this as "it's okay to be nazi (well, I'd argue that being friend with nazi and promoting them makes you nazi as well) as long as it helps you against your enemy"?
Because if so - we don't actually need to continue arguing, you seem to not deny Ukrainian government being nazis but instead trying to justify it.. I'm only trying to say they are nazis, I'm not trying to say whether it is justified or not :)
Well, I'm not going to give you a scan of my passport, sorry :)
But what exactly makes you feel so? Is admitting your own government is nazi what makes it so unbelivable? I'm sure Americans will be saying the same if Trump gets elected...
As for saying that I'm in a deep minority, again what makes you think so? Do you really think all the people that are being kidnapped on the streets and get sent to die have any sympathy for Zelensky??
You may not believe me, but every single Ukrainian friend I have hates Zelensky, because thanks to him, either they or their father/husband/brother/etc. might be caught on a street and sent to die at any time.
The absolute majority of people who support him are those who will not be the ones dying in the war, or at least those who believe that they won't. Which btw includes you and any other foreigner who supports him. It's cool and easy to support a war, when you are not forced to die in it.
I didn't bring it into the discussion, but sure, let's talk about it :)
What is your opinion on Azov brigade? Are those guys cool and not nazis? What about Ukrainian government (and Zelensky in particular) endorsing them (by publicly posting photos with them for example, etc.)?
What is your opinion on Stepan Bandera, that cool guy and totally not nazi who fought for Ukrainian independence, and who is being glorified in Ukraine and after whom streets are renamed?
Those two are just the most famous examples :)
I've not been following the Ukrainian war recently, but wouldn't the US surrendering Ukraine result in the erasure and eradication of Ukrainian culture. Which would likely result in more deaths than the war itself?
But we won't have to hear about the war any more, and that's all they really care about.
I care about people (including my friends and family) not dying.
As a conservative, the only people you care about not dying are your friends and family. Conservatives are not able to experience empathy for people outside of their in-group.
Well, this is false :)
I do experience empathy towards all Ukrainians dying in this war, not just my friends and family (although obviously I care more about them, that's how life works).
You are lying. It really is that simple.
Well go on, prove it, expose my lies to every one :)
The consistent behavior of conservatives world-wide is evidence that conservatives are incapable of experiencing empathy for those outside of their in-group.
Your suggestion that your capacity for empathy is somehow different than all other conservatives is bizarre and itself requires evidence to be taken at face value.
You didn't provide any proof for that :)
And actually, why do you even consider me a conservative? Is it only conservatives who have a compassion for human life? :/
You are the one suggesting that somehow I lack empathy, so burden of proof is on you ;)
The statement immediately above was evidence. In classic conservative fashion, you now demand evidence of that evidence. This goal-post movement will continue ad nauseum, illustrating the futility of debating conservatives.
No. The opposite is true, obviously.
You are requesting evidence of a negative, knowing full-well that it is not possible to prove a lack of existence of evidence. You have now provided yet another example of a conservative engaging in debate in bad faith.
You're confusing your opinion with evidence. Sorry to tell you, but it doesn't work that way.
Oh really? So you have empathy towards hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians that died in the war, and also wish for war to end as soon as possible, and therefore support Trump who is the only politician who promised to end the war? Well, in that case what are we even arguing about :)
I am requesting evidence of your arguments. If you argue something that you can't prove, then your argument is by definition invalid.
If Trump actually COULD end that war, you can enjoy living in Newkraine, the redeveloped luxury resort of the Sovi- I mean, Russian Union.
Here we go again, I always hear the same arguments and they don't make sense..
Nobody talks about Ukraine being turned into Russia. After peace talks start, new borders will be drawn (give or take) at the current frontlines (which could be way closer to Russia if peace talks started sooner btw).
And btw, even apart from that - do you know how to identify someone who never visited Ukraine and Russia? They are scaring you of living in Russia. Ukraine and Russia is the same shithole, give or take. Seriously, take whatever metric you want - HDI, GDP, corruption index, journalist freedom index, amount of wooden toilets on the outside, what-fucking-ever, what you will see? Both countries being close together, sometimes Ukraine is a bigger shithole, sometimes Russia is.
I'm sure that's all true, but you're not looking at it like Trump.
Your mistake is thinking like someone who gives a shit about ANYTHING that happens outside of the US. Trump is not one of those people.
Trump has a tiny boner for the power Putin has, and many people are convinced Putin has dirt on Trump. He would send US planes to drop bombs on Ukraine if his buddy Putin asked him to.
Well, maybe you're right, I don't know.
Like sure, maybe all that you've said is true!
But Dems will 100% continue the war just like Biden was doing this whole time. Trump at least says that he will end it.
So as I see: chance of peace with a Dem is 0%, chance of peace with Trump is >0%.
Do you think I am wrong here ^ ?
And if no, then how am I supposed to support anyone but Trump?
I think it's strange that you say you live there, but don't seem to have a preference on HOW the war ends. There's a big difference between a Ukraine victory, a Russian victory, and anywhere in the middle.
I'm not going to tell you how it is, if you're there, you know better than I, but I do know that Trump is not someone you want to put your trust in.
He's essentially Putin in training, and if you're still ok with that, you can fuck right off, because fascism isn't good for anybody.
What difference is there for an average Joe?
But I did not say anywhere that I trust Trump, in fact I said otherwise that I fully agree with you that politicians (including Trump) cannot be trusted!..
As I said - he at least says that he will end the war, and the Dems say they will continue it.
And again - if there would be other (viable) candidates, sure I'd support them. Is there any other candidate who promises that Ukrainians will stop dying?
Yeah. I've had my fill of sea lion today. Bye
Cya
Why would it? Trump did not promise to "surrender Ukraine", he promised to force both sides to negotiate and end the war. I don't think those negotiations would include whole Ukraine becoming Russia, do you think so? Most likely scenario is that the current front lines become the new borders, and most of the lost territories (Lugansk, Doneck, Crimea) don't really have " Ukrainian culture" they are mostly Russian speaking. It's a little bit different with Kherson and Zaporizhzhya but they still don't have nearly as much "Ukrainian culture" as western Ukraine.
The US doesn't have the ability and/or willingness to force Russia to comply with any of their demands. Therefore any deal has to be in agreement with the Russian state, which means their war demands. That means either the US pulls military support and Ukraine are unable to fight back, or the talks go nowhere and nothing really changes. There is no motivation for Russia to accept the current front lines.
... Although, like I said, my knowledge of this conflict is a little spotty - someone in the audience let me know if my read of the situation is correct.
I don't think this is correct..
We now know the details of the peace talks (from Ukrainian sources!) that started right at the beginning of the war, where Russia was ready to retreat to pre-war (so 2022) borders.
So I'm actually reasonably sure that Russia would absolutely accept the current front-lines.
The only reason there is no peace talks happening, is because Zelensky's demands are absolutely clownish (seriously, I don't know a better word here) - "give us back all the territories you captured, including Crimea, and then we will be ready to talk".
I guarantee you it will be another one of those deals where Ukraine gives up their land to Russia, and those deals are pointless because Ukraine won't accept them.
What do you mean Ukraine won't accept them?
Trump's promise was to
If there won't be weapon supplies, Zelensky will finally be forced to accept peace. Additionally he will lose his only reason for staying in power, and there will finally be elections in Ukraine.
If you believe anything that shitbird says, everything else you think or say is automatically invalidated.
Well, first of all no - it's a fallacy and doesn't work like that ;)
Secondly, if there are two parties, and you distrust both, but first party has been supporting war for two years and says that they will continue to do so, and the second party says they will stop it - how is it not the logical choice to support the second party (assuming you are actually affected by the war and so want it to end)?
And like I said, that guy lies nonstop. If you believe anything he says, youβre the sucker. It doesnβt matter if he says he will stop a war, or give everyone a million bucks, or turn straw into gold. The guy is a conman and a liar, and you seem to be falling for it. Thereβs nothing else to say here, youβre either a troll or a fool, or both. I say good day.
You seem to have trouble understanding my question :(
Let me rephrase it in that case - whom should I support if I want war to end?
It's definitely not Dems though, as they will continue the war just like they were doing this whole time.
In case you are not willing to answer it, good day to you as well :)
The answer is neither of them probably, though I think Kamala has a chance of ending it. She's less hawkish and further left than Biden. Trump only serves himself and his rich buddies, who happen to own defense and oil companies. So there is no way he would end the war.
But I also think you're not asking this question in good faith. So yeah I guess we're done here.
I haven't seen Kamala saying anything about ending the war tho or having a plan for that..
And you believed him? Why would you ever believe a word out of that guy's mouth?
Well, you are right, there is no reason to believe him or any other politician.
But dems openly say that they will continue the war, and Trump at least promises to end it. So you know, with Trump there is at least a chance for peace, while with whatever Dem candidate there will be - the chance is zero.
It is not possible for a conservative to enter a discussion in good faith. Every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation. Every word.
It is not possible for a liberal to enter a discussion in good faith. Every word uttered by a liberal is deception or manipulation. Every word.
See? I can do it as well :)
Now, do you have an actual point/argument that makes sense?
Your post history is consistent evidence of my claim. Every comment you've made on Lemmy has been deceptive and manipulative on its face or in its substance.
The time for negotiating with conservatives ended over a decade ago. The time for curing the social cancer of conservatism is at hand. There is no such thing as a "good conservative" alive today.
Here we go again...
Every time somebody says this, I ask for just one example. And never receive it (because I neither manipulate nor deceive anyone :).
So, any examples? :)
Well yeah, you definitely seem like a good guy
What part of "every word uttered by a conservative is deception or manipulation" are you having difficulty deciphering? Every comment you've made here is an example.
Let's use your above comment as an example.
This is not a true statement on its face.
Most replies to your "innocent inquiries" provide evidence of your deception as you reply with moved goal-posts.
This claim is an absurd falsehood that is evident to every rational human who reads your comment history.
As you can see, "debating" with a conservative is a waste of time as the conservative is not able to enter any discussion with honesty or in good faith.
Holy shit, you wrote such long comment, and it still doesn't prove a single manipulation/deceptio n/lie from me XD
Let me give you a tip, since you seem to struggle argumenting: if you want to prove it - the easiest way is to provide a counter-example ;)
Well, again - provide a single example of that :)
And again, a fallacy without an actual argument.
It is a common conservative tactic of deception to claim evidence is not evidence. This has been a standard go-to tactic for conservatives throughout history.
That approach does not work on Lemmy the way it works on other platforms you may be more familiar with (e.g. Truth Social, Stormfront, Rumble). Not acknowledging evidence as its presented to you is not going to result in a normal person being fooled here. Using a condescending tone is also not going to work.
The more you writhe, slither and whine, the more I enjoy playing with my food. Ok, your turn.
Well, considering you cannot provide any evidence/proofs to anything you're saying, I guess there is nothing more to talk with you about :(
That's a shame
Disregarding examples is not an effective way to counter them.
There never was. Every word you've uttered has been deception or manipulation, making our exchange an illustration of the very point you originally tried to debate against.
Another untrue statement.