Anyone who bases their entire identity around their political beliefs is pretty much always a disappointment no matter who they voted for
Joke's on you! I'm an anarchist and am always disappointed with electoralism, even if I didn't vote at all.
Liberals will disappoint you.
Conservatives will arrest, surpress and kill you.
Clearly both are equally bad!!
So those college students peacefully protesting aren't being arrested and suppressed while a Democrat is the president in states ran by democrats?
Found the Biden dick riding neo lib
Not to forget: Cop City is a bipartisan project (and the Atlanta mayor is a dem)
Both parties in the US are liberal.
They used to be, but the current Republican party explicitly rejects liberalism. They don't follow any liberal ideas, even on capitalism and free markets. They're willing to bend any principle for power. They're fascists.
Sure and the sky is green.
Look up "liberalism", before you ridicule yourself in front of everyone.
"Relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise." How the fuck does that describe the GOP?? I mean yeah I get the argument relative to economics, but on the civil rights side of things no.
They do advocate for all of these things for white christians.
Lol exactly!
Yeah... Liberals can be racists, you know?
Oh I completely agree with you, I'm a more libertarian kind of socialist myself so I definitely don't think liberalism is the answer. I also think that's is disingenuous, and really discrediting to leftists as a whole, when people try to say that the GOP is liberal. They're definitely not; on almost any social issue they are firmly opposed to the liberal position on civil rights, freedom of association, etc etc.
Yeah, they did turn into fascists in the last few decades... As liberals tend to do.
But yeah, I was a bit facecious with someone who probably didn't really know their politics too well. You got me.
Username checks out, btw. đ¤â¤ď¸
Solidarity forever! đš
I think it's disingenuous to leftists to call liberals leftist. Liberals are right wing and always have been.
I didn't mean to imply that liberals are leftists, but rather that the GOP isn't liberal other than economically.
That'a a new one
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, [consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law.
It's a United States thing. They use the term liberal to refer to social liberalism whereas you're referring to neoliberalism.
Edit: On second glance, your Wikipedia link is to straight liberalism, which includes things the Republican party doesn't support, like secularism. So who knows.
Originally, america was secular. Then the 1950s happened.
which includes things the Republican party doesn't support, like secularism.
Yeah, saw that, too. They are still liberals (as in: support neoliberal policies), but with christo-fascist tendencies. The article states that these points are contended right dow, though.
Relative to much of the world yes.
In terms of economics and neoliberalism mostly.
You're more right than wrong.
In terms of social liberalism, the differences between the two parties are more noticeable.
This is because structural politics is defined by undemocratic means, interests, and forces.
So we vote on more superficial aspects, such as the culture war and social rights.
Which can be important, but most of the time aren't the real meat of the world's problems.
The Log party and the Heron party.
Two-party systems were a problem even in ancient Greece.
Politics will always disappoint you. All you can do is work towards the things that matter
Of course politics will always disappoint you. Politics is the means by which large groups of people aggregate their desires sufficiently to achieve collective goals. It's a massive process of millions of compromises. The goal is explicitly not to make everyone happy. The goal is to have enough people of good will and with enough information avaliable involved that the series of compromises move enough of us in the right direction.
This is the Lemmy Sino-Russian propaganda farm version of a boomer meme. What a fucking joke, I literally laughed
When tankies disappoint you, however, complaining about it will get you a one way ticket to the gulag.
Liberals just bypass the gulag and incarcerate, kill, or deport you and your loved ones
Deportation would remove the risk of any interactions with dirty liberals tho, so isn't that a good thing?
Implying other places aren't plagued by neoliberalism
Troll
Edit: On brand that you support deportation though. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
Here is another way in which liberals will disappoint you with their lack of political education. There's liberals, conservatives and tankies, and no other options I guess.
Tell me, can you provide me with your definition of the word "tankie"? Because they are a specific thing that represents a fringe pariah of the radical left.
fringe pariah of the radical left
Tankies aren't leftists, and literally all of Hexbear is full of them. .ml too at this point.
Yeah but... I mean nominally they claim to be leftist. Honestly I think a lot of them are ideologically on the side of workers but they're misguided. I don't think you could claim the same thing for actual fascists, which is why I don't like the term "red fash". There are red fash, but they're actual nazbols, not just people who have fallen victim to revisionism.
Found the nazi
Nah. Tankies are imperialist scum, just like liberals.
The Democrats can't do as much as you want them to when there's a very real chance of losing the election to the Republicans. If you want change, then vote. If you want policy 475, you need to vote for policy 1 first.
The American system of government is the blame game. For example, few people seem to remember that during Obama's 8 years in office he had the government for 10 months.
During the 86 other months Republicans exploited that by simultaneously stonewalling everything while going to the media and questioning why the democrats aren't doing more for the American people. It is a masterfully effective underhanded tactic.
I also agree that everyone should vote. When more people vote, regardless of political affiliation, democrats win bigger. I don't know why that is true, but it is. So yes, everyone vote!
Itâs the other way around. They not gonna do what u want them to because they know youâll have to vote for them because of their fear politics. Let them know theyâre not getting your vote. Theyâre gonna lose their jobs. Then theyâll try harder.
Dude no. They need to win elections which means they can't lose to Republicans. That's it. When they know they can't lose, they will move on to better policies. They aren't going to magically move left when there's a very real chance of losing the election. Sorry to say, you're twisting yourself into knots trying to justify not voting.
Why on earth would they move left if there's no risk of losing? They want to enact right wing policies because that's what their donors pay them to do.
Your question is complete backwards. They can't move left because there is a real chance of losing. You win elections from the center. If you have a risk of losing that means you stay firmly in the center.
You win elections from the center.
That's absolute nonsense. The number of people who are politically engaged swing voters is very marginal. Meanwhile, a full third of the country doesn't vote. You win elections through turnout, and you get turnout by supporting popular policies that actually benefit people.
Alternatively, you can win elections through money, if you can convince the rich that you'll govern in their interests, against the interests of the poor.
The democrats, broadly speaking, prefer to win through the latter method because they get more money that way, but that doesn't make it the most effective method. They just have a loud enough signal to convince people it's the only method.
You literally win from the middle. One switched vote is worth double from the fringes, because you take away from the other party and get one yourself.
And if you run against incumbents, you have to be even more in the middle - think Clinton and Biden. Biden had to run center, although he's acting further left than what he ran on.
Sorry but you're just trying to justify not voting, by pretending that not voting will magically make the party move left. It won't. It's fantasy. Not voting means they will meet in the middle even harder.
You want change? Make the Dems win resoundingly and successively.
Why on earth would you bring up Clinton to support your argument? She did exactly what you described and somehow managed to lose what should've been an extremely easy election. Biden managed to win by a very narrow margin in another extremely easy matchup. Not included in your data set are any candidates who ran more to the left, such as Obama (though he governed far to the right of how he ran).
There's so many more disengaged voters than swing voters that it doesn't matter if swing voters are worth more. Besides, swing voters don't just vote according to a rational policy calculus of centrism. A lot of it is vibes or superficial nonsense.
The dems are not going to magically move left, against their donors interests and the interests they've repeatedly demonstrated they hold, just because they win. Especially if that win comes through unconditional support from the left. They are not your friends, and they don't share your interests. They're careerists pursuing their own advancement.
Bill Clinton is the one that ran against an incumbent. He had to run center. Against Bush senior. Bill Clinton. The one that was actually president. Bill.
Hillary Clinton thank you for bringing that up. She ran on climate war/map room. That and the attacks lost it. But what do you think the window would be if Hillary Clinton won? Easy, it would be further left. You're making my case for me.
And what did the protest no vote do? That's right, fucking handed it to Trump. You're making my case for me
Instead Trump won and guess what happened to the Overton window? It went off the cliff to the right. And it's still there because he won and could win again. You're making this too easy.
Disengaged voters you say. Hey I wonder what they could do. Hmmmmmmmm. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. I think they could, wait for it, vote! If you want policy number 475 you have to vote for policy 1 first. That's exactly what happened with GOP, they voted for decades and they finally got roe overturned. You keep making my case.
Besides, swing voters don't just vote according to a rational policy calculus of centrism. A lot of it is vibes or superficial nonsense.
Doesn't fucking matter. They vote. And guess what, that means they get heard. You keep making my case for me.
Agree the Dems aren't going to magically move left like you think they're going to when you don't vote. They will move with the voters. But you don't like this so you try to say it's all donors and whatever else. It's unbelievable. The way you get things is to change is to vote. This is so incredibly easy but you want to make up excuses and do mental gymnastics. Get dem in the whitehouse and majority in Congress for 20 years straight and watch it fucking move. You do that by voting.
Oh I see you're from .ml. it'll just be more excuses and mental gymnastics. Ciao.
Hillary Clinton thank you for bringing that up. What do you think the window would be if Hillary Clinton won? Easy, it would be further left. Youâre making my case for me.
Instead Trump won and guess what happened to the Overton window? It went off the cliff to the right. And itâs still there because he won and could win again. Youâre making this too easy.
It is, in fact, very easy to have a conversation when you're only having it with yourself.
If you agreed with everything I said, do you think that would make you more correct or less correct? That's right, more correct. Therefore I'm right. You're making my case for me, this is too easy, blah blah blah.
Lmao thank you for confirming your mental gymnastics! You don't even make sense. Kinda figured after you saw your mistake with Bill Clinton. I did some edits though. Ciao for real and you don't get to complain when you don't vote.
Weird that I wouldn't make sense to you considering I just did the exact same thing you did.
You seem knowledgeable enough about the topic to realize that itâs not as cut-and-dry as youâre making it out to be.
In what way?
Elections are massively complicated and a single strategy doesnât determine who wins and loses. You and the other commenter could both be right (or wrong), depending on the context or circumstances.
Sure, there could be some specific cases where they're correct. But if you can't say anything about elections unless it's generalizable to all circumstances, then you can't say anything about elections at all. I'm speaking generally.
You are assuming that leftward momentum is what the democrats want. I am sure a couple do, but the establishment democrats showed their hands when the super delegates prevented actual progress, and shut down referendums that won to establish ranked voting on stateâs levels. Without motivation to change they will not because they got theirs.
And no i donât want fucking trump being president, using his presidency to quash his lawsuits, damn Ukraine, damn Palestine, sell off what little progress our civilization made to fighting climate change, remove further rights from the vulnerable groups, establishing Christianity as the national religion, kill off all our agent for money, establish the president breaking the law as a with qualified immunity, rewriting the history books, burn and silence dissenting thought, further pollute the judicial system with cronies, and pardon neo nazi criminals.
It just sucks knowing that no matter what i do the US is directly responsible for yet another genocide, and in 4 years it will be de santis or who knows trump running yet again, and it will again be ânow is not the time to rock the boat, vote blue no matter who, or else ââdemocracyââ will endâŚagainâ now and forever more as justification to block actual change and then force conservative democrats to win the primaries.
It's the Overton window. If the right ideas keep losing, then the left ideas have more say. If the right wing ideas don't win you elections, they slowly fade away. If left wing ideas win you elections, the the whole Overton window goes to which left wing ideas will win.
Like dude you just listed off the entire Overton window that they're appealing to because it won them an election and might win them another election. Like you just did it! Why do those talking points even exist? Because it won and could win again. Shut those out by voting. Tell them resoundingly that there's no chance of winning on those ideas, and then the Overton window can move left.
The Overton windows slides right during a Democrat presidency. Just slower
Literally how
Dude you didn't address anything I said, just a glib catchphrase that's frankly wrong. But in good faith I'll discuss:Depends on the circumstances. Clinton and Biden running against incumbents had to be even more center, although Biden is acting more left than what he ran. But you want to suggest Obama with Obamacare was right? Yeah no. And Biden is left than what he ran: IRA, chips act, marijuana, etc. Sorry your little catchphrase is inaccurate.
And if you want even more inaccuracy, get dem president and Congress majority for 20 years straight and watch it move. Because, as I said, you can't do what you want when there's a real chance of losing. Then more left ideas in the party get more attention and traction. Which is, you guessed it, the Overton window.
Itâs naive to think that voters have more influence on policies than donors/lobbyists. If democrats win every election then capitalists will just donate more to make sure their needs are met. All politicians are corrupted by huge sums of money.
While there's some legitimacy in money winning elections, you know what it comes down to? Fucking votes.
I feel like you didnât read my comment at all. Because your point is completely irrelevant to what I said.
I addressed it. I'll try again. The ultimate deciding factor in elections is votes. Literally votes. Election night isn't spent tallying who raised the most money, it's literally counting who got the most votes.
Again not relevant at all to what I said. My comment wasnât about election results but about policies. It doesnât matter who wins an election because capitalists will always make sure to donate to the winner in order to decide their policies.
Ah I see you're trying to ignore the entire Overton window point. Which is what I was talking about from the start. Votes change the Overton window dude. It's really that simple. If you want the Overton window to change, you vote.
You're conflating a shit ton. Do capitalists care about abortion? No. Rich donors probably didn't really care either. Guess what changed it? Fucking votes. They picked that topic because it gets votes.
Votes determine policy and the Overton window because votes win elections.
And that is what I said: while there's some legitimate talking point in money helping to win elections, what ultimately wins elections is, wait for it, votes. Votes are the ultimate decider for elections and yes policy.
They aren't using enough fear politics. The entire planet should be afraid of a fascist United States. Trump will tank the global economy. Trump will be more hostile to other nations than even liberal imperialists. There is no upside.
It's even better for accelerationists if the systemfails under liberals. If it fails under a fascist, liberals can just claim it only failed because fascists gained control.
Biden and democrats are taking advantage of this situation to do whatever they want because people are afraid not to vote for them. A lot of people are waking up tho and democrats need to either do what the people want or risk losing the vote. Not to Trump, just no vote. There will always be a Trump. It might take 4 years of Trump for the world to see how our voting system needs to be reformed and the two party system torn apart. Democrats are not for the people. Theyâre for the dollar bill.
No fucking shit genius. Ofc they're taking advantage of the situation. That's what the more left wing party does. However, not voting is forfeiting your choice. Unless you have a large, organized coalition who otherwise would vote, boycotts aren't very effective. This is especially true when the worse choice is about as bad as choices can get. Unfortunately, there's no use explaining project 2025 when your opinion isn't based on facts.
You think I disagree with you out of ignorance, but it's your wistful thinking creating fake options. You're just coping with the depressing reality. You believe not voting for Biden is an option because you really want there to be another way. You need to recognize your actual situation before you can find a way out of it. Acknowledgement is not the same as saying things are good and should continue.
IS =/= OUGHT!
Not participating is absolutely a choice. Youâre brainwashed and afraid.
I donât you disagree with you about my feelings about the Democratic Party. I disagree with your playing into fear politics instead of opting out. The cycle has to end at some point even if it takes a huge wake up call.
Yeah, the wake up call that'll put people like me to sleep forever đ
Trump is gonna kill you? Damn. They really got in your head.
Not me specifically, but they want trans people eradicated, and I am indeed trans. If you aren't aware of what they're literally saying about us, what they're already doing to us in red states, that's your problem.
I'm also brown, educated, left wing, outspoken, neurodivergent, bisexual, and a woman. I'm the embodiment of everything they hate. I'm their worst nightmare. I'm an obvious target for the state violence Trump promises to carry out. I made the mistake of not taking him on his word last time, and I won't make it again.
This isnât oppression Olympics. Donât need to know all the identifying factors that make you more oppressed than other people so you have some sort of moral or social high ground.
Last I heard lots of trans people are killing themselves. Sounds like a mental health crisis more than a political one.
I agree that Trump will do damage to the LGBTQ2A+ community and other oppressed communities, but the president doesnât have all the power. Everything goes through the house and/or senate.
Please feel free to vote for a man who is aiding in the murder of innocent children and families. I will not tell my children and potentially grandchildren that I chose him or Trump to lead our country. Iâll vote for house and senate until they fix the electoral college and allow RCV or something similar for presidential elections.
Last I heard lots of trans people are killing themselves. Sounds like a mental health crisis more than a political one.
As someone with formal experience in psychology and mental health, the entire mental health crisis our society faces is the result of politics. As economic inequality goes up, mental health problems go up. Workers pushed by their bosses burn out. People living paycheck to paycheck have worse mental health. Everyone has worse access to healthcare and don't seek the help they need because they can't afford it. Trans people kill ourselves because our problems aren't taken seriously by close minded people like you.
You see mental problems as a personal fault rather than a collective responsibility. This is because you think people deserve what they get and have sole "responsibility" for their suffering. You act woke, but you're more ignorant to suffering Biden. Tell your children how you voted and never deny that you let a fascist gain power. Hopefully they'll be decent people in spite of your efforts.
As somebody who has formal experience with psychology and mental health you should know better than to deal in absolutes. Not sure what you define as the âmental crisisâ happening in our country right now. Are you only talking about trans suicides?
Yes, politics play a role in mental health, but whatever mental health crisis you speak of cannot possibly be contributed to politics entirely. Especially, because as you seem to believe, politics are a result of the peopleâs actions or inactions, meaning the people influence culture as much as politics influence society.
You should know better than to make assumptions who you think I am by projecting all of your frustrations with the political system and society on me. Itâs okay. Iâll be your punching bag. I hope you can find happiness and I wish you good physical and mental health.
In what way will voting for a fascist end the cycle? By making us not be able to vote anymore? Yeah, real good option you're pushing for there.
I never said I was voting for anybody. And youâve clearly bought into the scare tactics. You honestly think the president has the power to stop voting? Relax. Take 4 more years of Trump and get it over with. Dems are losers. They need to wake up and give the people what they want instead of relying on scare tactics.
Yes, and you thinking he can't is giving American democracy too much credit. You have more faith in the system than any lib if you think that unironically.
Youâre catastrophizing. Understandable, but not realistic and not healthy. Really think it through. How could the president put an end to voting in the United States? Especially in 4 years. If you think thatâs possible, think about why democrats havenât then tried to reform the electoral college. Because they donât want true democracy either.
Yes Trump would swing a lot of things right, but not to the extent that democrats are scaring people into believing.
You share the lack of perspective that most libs have. You don't understand just how unstable our world is. You have a lack of imagination, similar to me when I was younger, mostly because my parents kept me sheltered from the world they grew up in. Growing up poor and Latino in dysfunctional households motivated them to protect me.
Unlike you, I did eventually learn how dangerous the world can be without suffering the worst of it. I read about history, learned about political science, and talked with people who actually remember how terrible the world can be. The challenges we are nearly guaranteed to face in the next decade will come as such a brutal shock to people who've never been in danger.
You think Trump swinging "a lot of things right" isn't a big deal because you're privileged as fuck, even compared to me. I grew up near your city, and there was a common sense of ignorance that I noticed. People just didn't have the same financial concerns my family had. I always felt like an outsider in terms of class, even if the people were supposedly progressive. Get Out felt so relatable to me because I'd spent my life around out of touch liberals like you.
You're not ill intentioned, just privileged, protected by the consequences of politics. You're calling me hysterical because you're a Dunning-Kruger champagne socialist. I'm not trying to play oppression Olympics, as I'm privileged too, but you don't understand how dangerous and brutal the world is.
Says the person who wants to vote for a man who is literally actively aiding in the murder of innocent children and families. Take your sob story to a therapist and stop projecting your own lived experience onto people you know nothing about. Iâm worried about you. Do you need help?
It's the other way around in my country. The more votes the middle and left parties lost, the further they moved to the right in an attempt to claw back votes. But then there was a huge protest campaign against the right and the right started losing votes in our regular surveys (though still much too strong).
So I urge you to vote for your option that is not regularly talking about using fascist methods and undoing gained freedoms "on day one".
i see what you're saying. if only people on the right are voting, then they'll shift focus to the right, but that should pave the way for a candidate on the left that people actually want. the problem is there is no true democracy and no potential for third party candidates to actually win. I will not vote unless there is a candidate I actually want to lead the country, and/or they implement RCV or a similar voting system for presidential elections. i'll still vote for house and senate.
I can understand and respect your stance. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance of having to live under a Trump presidency though.
When does it stop tho? He can keep running as long as he wants and dems can keep taking advantage of that to do whatever they want because they know theyâll get the vote because of fear politics.
but that should pave the way for a candidate on the left that people actually want
Candidates don't emerge for voters that don't vote. Because in the analysis they don't even exist, because they don't vote. It's a null data set. No politician is going to gamble on it possibly maybe existing but don't vote. No donors are going to donate to causes which the voters maybe possibly exist but don't vote. It simply doesn't happen.
Nobody here is talking about people that never vote.
New to Lemmy? There are hordes of users (no exaggeration) that say they won't vote because the Dems aren't left enough and bothsidessame.
Iâll take your word for it. Iâm only talking about people in my situation. Weâve voted in the past and arenât voting now. Presidents have won by focusing on getting out the vote for populations that have had low voter turnout.
We voted for Biden and gave him the house and senate and he still couldn't pass a pathetic $15 minimum wage... stop making excuses for them like someone voting harder will make them any less incompetent liars.
But but but but but but but but but but Biden bad!!1!1
Looks like he did $15 minimum for federal workers, ran out of time, and is asking Congress to do it for everyone (you know, because he currently doesn't have the house, you know because of votes). Lol looks like you should take your own advice and stop making excuses for yourself.
When did lemmy redefine conservatism as liberalism? Am I in some reverse world?
Everything done by the United States government before Trump was done under the liberal ideology. They've justified slavery and social security, the United Nations and support for military dictatorships, ethnic cleansing and the right to vote, all from valid use of that contradictory ideology. It's filled with amazing ideas and terrible ideas that are all at war with one another.
The major problem with it for lemmy users is how much liberals support capitalism and imperialism. Both of these things are the source of most of our biggest problems, and liberals consistently fail to restrain themselves.
Ugh, liberals
US Democracy is a type of liberalism, which was created as a reaction to mercantilism and monarchies. Basically means "individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise." which... US Democracy doesn't lmao.
Different word from liberal and conservative. Kind of like "mankind" doesn't just refer to men.
Hope is an illusion.
Hope is masturbation.
Act.
Hope is key to acting
Using hope as a driving factor for acting to bring the change you want to see
For example: I hope to see better pedestrian focused infrastructure in my community therefore I act in a way to make that happen. I call my reps, I talk with people I meet about it, etc.
Hope makes you more likely to succeed, even if it guarantees nothing. All predictions of the future are extremely fallible, even hopeless ones. It's no more an illusion than being a doomer who guarantees their own failure.
If you don't have hope, you have already lost.
I disappoint them by fighting back
Progressives also disappoint me. The public not being Social Democrats is my main issue.
Anyone who bases their entire identity around their political beliefs is pretty much always a disappointment no matter who they voted for
Joke's on you! I'm an anarchist and am always disappointed with electoralism, even if I didn't vote at all.
Liberals will disappoint you.
Conservatives will arrest, surpress and kill you.
Clearly both are equally bad!!
So those college students peacefully protesting aren't being arrested and suppressed while a Democrat is the president in states ran by democrats?
Found the Biden dick riding neo lib
Not to forget: Cop City is a bipartisan project (and the Atlanta mayor is a dem)
Both parties in the US are liberal.
They used to be, but the current Republican party explicitly rejects liberalism. They don't follow any liberal ideas, even on capitalism and free markets. They're willing to bend any principle for power. They're fascists.
Sure and the sky is green.
Look up "liberalism", before you ridicule yourself in front of everyone.
"Relating to or denoting a political and social philosophy that promotes individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise." How the fuck does that describe the GOP?? I mean yeah I get the argument relative to economics, but on the civil rights side of things no.
They do advocate for all of these things for white christians.
Lol exactly!
Yeah... Liberals can be racists, you know?
Oh I completely agree with you, I'm a more libertarian kind of socialist myself so I definitely don't think liberalism is the answer. I also think that's is disingenuous, and really discrediting to leftists as a whole, when people try to say that the GOP is liberal. They're definitely not; on almost any social issue they are firmly opposed to the liberal position on civil rights, freedom of association, etc etc.
Yeah, they did turn into fascists in the last few decades... As liberals tend to do.
But yeah, I was a bit facecious with someone who probably didn't really know their politics too well. You got me.
Username checks out, btw. đ¤â¤ď¸
Solidarity forever! đš
I think it's disingenuous to leftists to call liberals leftist. Liberals are right wing and always have been.
I didn't mean to imply that liberals are leftists, but rather that the GOP isn't liberal other than economically.
That'a a new one
Wikipedia agrees with me
It's a United States thing. They use the term liberal to refer to social liberalism whereas you're referring to neoliberalism.
Edit: On second glance, your Wikipedia link is to straight liberalism, which includes things the Republican party doesn't support, like secularism. So who knows.
Originally, america was secular. Then the 1950s happened.
Yeah, saw that, too. They are still liberals (as in: support neoliberal policies), but with christo-fascist tendencies. The article states that these points are contended right dow, though.
Relative to much of the world yes.
In terms of economics and neoliberalism mostly.
You're more right than wrong.
In terms of social liberalism, the differences between the two parties are more noticeable.
This is because structural politics is defined by undemocratic means, interests, and forces.
So we vote on more superficial aspects, such as the culture war and social rights.
Which can be important, but most of the time aren't the real meat of the world's problems.
The Log party and the Heron party.
Two-party systems were a problem even in ancient Greece.
Politics will always disappoint you. All you can do is work towards the things that matter
Of course politics will always disappoint you. Politics is the means by which large groups of people aggregate their desires sufficiently to achieve collective goals. It's a massive process of millions of compromises. The goal is explicitly not to make everyone happy. The goal is to have enough people of good will and with enough information avaliable involved that the series of compromises move enough of us in the right direction.
This is the Lemmy Sino-Russian propaganda farm version of a boomer meme. What a fucking joke, I literally laughed
When tankies disappoint you, however, complaining about it will get you a one way ticket to the gulag.
Liberals just bypass the gulag and incarcerate, kill, or deport you and your loved ones
Deportation would remove the risk of any interactions with dirty liberals tho, so isn't that a good thing?
Implying other places aren't plagued by neoliberalism
Troll
Edit: On brand that you support deportation though. Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.
Here is another way in which liberals will disappoint you with their lack of political education. There's liberals, conservatives and tankies, and no other options I guess.
Tell me, can you provide me with your definition of the word "tankie"? Because they are a specific thing that represents a fringe pariah of the radical left.
fringe pariah of the radical left
Tankies aren't leftists, and literally all of Hexbear is full of them. .ml too at this point.
Yeah but... I mean nominally they claim to be leftist. Honestly I think a lot of them are ideologically on the side of workers but they're misguided. I don't think you could claim the same thing for actual fascists, which is why I don't like the term "red fash". There are red fash, but they're actual nazbols, not just people who have fallen victim to revisionism.
Found the nazi
Nah. Tankies are imperialist scum, just like liberals.
The Democrats can't do as much as you want them to when there's a very real chance of losing the election to the Republicans. If you want change, then vote. If you want policy 475, you need to vote for policy 1 first.
The American system of government is the blame game. For example, few people seem to remember that during Obama's 8 years in office he had the government for 10 months.
During the 86 other months Republicans exploited that by simultaneously stonewalling everything while going to the media and questioning why the democrats aren't doing more for the American people. It is a masterfully effective underhanded tactic.
I also agree that everyone should vote. When more people vote, regardless of political affiliation, democrats win bigger. I don't know why that is true, but it is. So yes, everyone vote!
Itâs the other way around. They not gonna do what u want them to because they know youâll have to vote for them because of their fear politics. Let them know theyâre not getting your vote. Theyâre gonna lose their jobs. Then theyâll try harder.
Dude no. They need to win elections which means they can't lose to Republicans. That's it. When they know they can't lose, they will move on to better policies. They aren't going to magically move left when there's a very real chance of losing the election. Sorry to say, you're twisting yourself into knots trying to justify not voting.
Why on earth would they move left if there's no risk of losing? They want to enact right wing policies because that's what their donors pay them to do.
Your question is complete backwards. They can't move left because there is a real chance of losing. You win elections from the center. If you have a risk of losing that means you stay firmly in the center.
That's absolute nonsense. The number of people who are politically engaged swing voters is very marginal. Meanwhile, a full third of the country doesn't vote. You win elections through turnout, and you get turnout by supporting popular policies that actually benefit people.
Alternatively, you can win elections through money, if you can convince the rich that you'll govern in their interests, against the interests of the poor.
The democrats, broadly speaking, prefer to win through the latter method because they get more money that way, but that doesn't make it the most effective method. They just have a loud enough signal to convince people it's the only method.
You literally win from the middle. One switched vote is worth double from the fringes, because you take away from the other party and get one yourself.
And if you run against incumbents, you have to be even more in the middle - think Clinton and Biden. Biden had to run center, although he's acting further left than what he ran on.
Sorry but you're just trying to justify not voting, by pretending that not voting will magically make the party move left. It won't. It's fantasy. Not voting means they will meet in the middle even harder.
You want change? Make the Dems win resoundingly and successively.
Why on earth would you bring up Clinton to support your argument? She did exactly what you described and somehow managed to lose what should've been an extremely easy election. Biden managed to win by a very narrow margin in another extremely easy matchup. Not included in your data set are any candidates who ran more to the left, such as Obama (though he governed far to the right of how he ran).
There's so many more disengaged voters than swing voters that it doesn't matter if swing voters are worth more. Besides, swing voters don't just vote according to a rational policy calculus of centrism. A lot of it is vibes or superficial nonsense.
The dems are not going to magically move left, against their donors interests and the interests they've repeatedly demonstrated they hold, just because they win. Especially if that win comes through unconditional support from the left. They are not your friends, and they don't share your interests. They're careerists pursuing their own advancement.
Bill Clinton is the one that ran against an incumbent. He had to run center. Against Bush senior. Bill Clinton. The one that was actually president. Bill.
Hillary Clinton thank you for bringing that up. She ran on climate war/map room. That and the attacks lost it. But what do you think the window would be if Hillary Clinton won? Easy, it would be further left. You're making my case for me.
And what did the protest no vote do? That's right, fucking handed it to Trump. You're making my case for me
Instead Trump won and guess what happened to the Overton window? It went off the cliff to the right. And it's still there because he won and could win again. You're making this too easy.
Disengaged voters you say. Hey I wonder what they could do. Hmmmmmmmm. Hmmmmm. Hmmmmm. I think they could, wait for it, vote! If you want policy number 475 you have to vote for policy 1 first. That's exactly what happened with GOP, they voted for decades and they finally got roe overturned. You keep making my case.
Doesn't fucking matter. They vote. And guess what, that means they get heard. You keep making my case for me.
Agree the Dems aren't going to magically move left like you think they're going to when you don't vote. They will move with the voters. But you don't like this so you try to say it's all donors and whatever else. It's unbelievable. The way you get things is to change is to vote. This is so incredibly easy but you want to make up excuses and do mental gymnastics. Get dem in the whitehouse and majority in Congress for 20 years straight and watch it fucking move. You do that by voting.
Oh I see you're from .ml. it'll just be more excuses and mental gymnastics. Ciao.
It is, in fact, very easy to have a conversation when you're only having it with yourself.
If you agreed with everything I said, do you think that would make you more correct or less correct? That's right, more correct. Therefore I'm right. You're making my case for me, this is too easy, blah blah blah.
Lmao thank you for confirming your mental gymnastics! You don't even make sense. Kinda figured after you saw your mistake with Bill Clinton. I did some edits though. Ciao for real and you don't get to complain when you don't vote.
Weird that I wouldn't make sense to you considering I just did the exact same thing you did.
You seem knowledgeable enough about the topic to realize that itâs not as cut-and-dry as youâre making it out to be.
In what way?
Elections are massively complicated and a single strategy doesnât determine who wins and loses. You and the other commenter could both be right (or wrong), depending on the context or circumstances.
Sure, there could be some specific cases where they're correct. But if you can't say anything about elections unless it's generalizable to all circumstances, then you can't say anything about elections at all. I'm speaking generally.
You are assuming that leftward momentum is what the democrats want. I am sure a couple do, but the establishment democrats showed their hands when the super delegates prevented actual progress, and shut down referendums that won to establish ranked voting on stateâs levels. Without motivation to change they will not because they got theirs.
And no i donât want fucking trump being president, using his presidency to quash his lawsuits, damn Ukraine, damn Palestine, sell off what little progress our civilization made to fighting climate change, remove further rights from the vulnerable groups, establishing Christianity as the national religion, kill off all our agent for money, establish the president breaking the law as a with qualified immunity, rewriting the history books, burn and silence dissenting thought, further pollute the judicial system with cronies, and pardon neo nazi criminals.
It just sucks knowing that no matter what i do the US is directly responsible for yet another genocide, and in 4 years it will be de santis or who knows trump running yet again, and it will again be ânow is not the time to rock the boat, vote blue no matter who, or else ââdemocracyââ will endâŚagainâ now and forever more as justification to block actual change and then force conservative democrats to win the primaries.
It's the Overton window. If the right ideas keep losing, then the left ideas have more say. If the right wing ideas don't win you elections, they slowly fade away. If left wing ideas win you elections, the the whole Overton window goes to which left wing ideas will win.
Like dude you just listed off the entire Overton window that they're appealing to because it won them an election and might win them another election. Like you just did it! Why do those talking points even exist? Because it won and could win again. Shut those out by voting. Tell them resoundingly that there's no chance of winning on those ideas, and then the Overton window can move left.
The Overton windows slides right during a Democrat presidency. Just slower
Literally how
Dude you didn't address anything I said, just a glib catchphrase that's frankly wrong. But in good faith I'll discuss:Depends on the circumstances. Clinton and Biden running against incumbents had to be even more center, although Biden is acting more left than what he ran. But you want to suggest Obama with Obamacare was right? Yeah no. And Biden is left than what he ran: IRA, chips act, marijuana, etc. Sorry your little catchphrase is inaccurate.
And if you want even more inaccuracy, get dem president and Congress majority for 20 years straight and watch it move. Because, as I said, you can't do what you want when there's a real chance of losing. Then more left ideas in the party get more attention and traction. Which is, you guessed it, the Overton window.
Itâs naive to think that voters have more influence on policies than donors/lobbyists. If democrats win every election then capitalists will just donate more to make sure their needs are met. All politicians are corrupted by huge sums of money.
While there's some legitimacy in money winning elections, you know what it comes down to? Fucking votes.
I feel like you didnât read my comment at all. Because your point is completely irrelevant to what I said.
I addressed it. I'll try again. The ultimate deciding factor in elections is votes. Literally votes. Election night isn't spent tallying who raised the most money, it's literally counting who got the most votes.
Again not relevant at all to what I said. My comment wasnât about election results but about policies. It doesnât matter who wins an election because capitalists will always make sure to donate to the winner in order to decide their policies.
Ah I see you're trying to ignore the entire Overton window point. Which is what I was talking about from the start. Votes change the Overton window dude. It's really that simple. If you want the Overton window to change, you vote.
You're conflating a shit ton. Do capitalists care about abortion? No. Rich donors probably didn't really care either. Guess what changed it? Fucking votes. They picked that topic because it gets votes.
Votes determine policy and the Overton window because votes win elections.
And that is what I said: while there's some legitimate talking point in money helping to win elections, what ultimately wins elections is, wait for it, votes. Votes are the ultimate decider for elections and yes policy.
They aren't using enough fear politics. The entire planet should be afraid of a fascist United States. Trump will tank the global economy. Trump will be more hostile to other nations than even liberal imperialists. There is no upside.
It's even better for accelerationists if the systemfails under liberals. If it fails under a fascist, liberals can just claim it only failed because fascists gained control.
Biden and democrats are taking advantage of this situation to do whatever they want because people are afraid not to vote for them. A lot of people are waking up tho and democrats need to either do what the people want or risk losing the vote. Not to Trump, just no vote. There will always be a Trump. It might take 4 years of Trump for the world to see how our voting system needs to be reformed and the two party system torn apart. Democrats are not for the people. Theyâre for the dollar bill.
No fucking shit genius. Ofc they're taking advantage of the situation. That's what the more left wing party does. However, not voting is forfeiting your choice. Unless you have a large, organized coalition who otherwise would vote, boycotts aren't very effective. This is especially true when the worse choice is about as bad as choices can get. Unfortunately, there's no use explaining project 2025 when your opinion isn't based on facts.
You think I disagree with you out of ignorance, but it's your wistful thinking creating fake options. You're just coping with the depressing reality. You believe not voting for Biden is an option because you really want there to be another way. You need to recognize your actual situation before you can find a way out of it. Acknowledgement is not the same as saying things are good and should continue.
IS =/= OUGHT!
Not participating is absolutely a choice. Youâre brainwashed and afraid.
I donât you disagree with you about my feelings about the Democratic Party. I disagree with your playing into fear politics instead of opting out. The cycle has to end at some point even if it takes a huge wake up call.
Yeah, the wake up call that'll put people like me to sleep forever đ
Trump is gonna kill you? Damn. They really got in your head.
Not me specifically, but they want trans people eradicated, and I am indeed trans. If you aren't aware of what they're literally saying about us, what they're already doing to us in red states, that's your problem.
I'm also brown, educated, left wing, outspoken, neurodivergent, bisexual, and a woman. I'm the embodiment of everything they hate. I'm their worst nightmare. I'm an obvious target for the state violence Trump promises to carry out. I made the mistake of not taking him on his word last time, and I won't make it again.
This isnât oppression Olympics. Donât need to know all the identifying factors that make you more oppressed than other people so you have some sort of moral or social high ground.
Last I heard lots of trans people are killing themselves. Sounds like a mental health crisis more than a political one.
I agree that Trump will do damage to the LGBTQ2A+ community and other oppressed communities, but the president doesnât have all the power. Everything goes through the house and/or senate.
Please feel free to vote for a man who is aiding in the murder of innocent children and families. I will not tell my children and potentially grandchildren that I chose him or Trump to lead our country. Iâll vote for house and senate until they fix the electoral college and allow RCV or something similar for presidential elections.
As someone with formal experience in psychology and mental health, the entire mental health crisis our society faces is the result of politics. As economic inequality goes up, mental health problems go up. Workers pushed by their bosses burn out. People living paycheck to paycheck have worse mental health. Everyone has worse access to healthcare and don't seek the help they need because they can't afford it. Trans people kill ourselves because our problems aren't taken seriously by close minded people like you.
You see mental problems as a personal fault rather than a collective responsibility. This is because you think people deserve what they get and have sole "responsibility" for their suffering. You act woke, but you're more ignorant to suffering Biden. Tell your children how you voted and never deny that you let a fascist gain power. Hopefully they'll be decent people in spite of your efforts.
As somebody who has formal experience with psychology and mental health you should know better than to deal in absolutes. Not sure what you define as the âmental crisisâ happening in our country right now. Are you only talking about trans suicides?
Yes, politics play a role in mental health, but whatever mental health crisis you speak of cannot possibly be contributed to politics entirely. Especially, because as you seem to believe, politics are a result of the peopleâs actions or inactions, meaning the people influence culture as much as politics influence society.
You should know better than to make assumptions who you think I am by projecting all of your frustrations with the political system and society on me. Itâs okay. Iâll be your punching bag. I hope you can find happiness and I wish you good physical and mental health.
In what way will voting for a fascist end the cycle? By making us not be able to vote anymore? Yeah, real good option you're pushing for there.
I never said I was voting for anybody. And youâve clearly bought into the scare tactics. You honestly think the president has the power to stop voting? Relax. Take 4 more years of Trump and get it over with. Dems are losers. They need to wake up and give the people what they want instead of relying on scare tactics.
Yes, and you thinking he can't is giving American democracy too much credit. You have more faith in the system than any lib if you think that unironically.
Youâre catastrophizing. Understandable, but not realistic and not healthy. Really think it through. How could the president put an end to voting in the United States? Especially in 4 years. If you think thatâs possible, think about why democrats havenât then tried to reform the electoral college. Because they donât want true democracy either.
Yes Trump would swing a lot of things right, but not to the extent that democrats are scaring people into believing.
You share the lack of perspective that most libs have. You don't understand just how unstable our world is. You have a lack of imagination, similar to me when I was younger, mostly because my parents kept me sheltered from the world they grew up in. Growing up poor and Latino in dysfunctional households motivated them to protect me.
Unlike you, I did eventually learn how dangerous the world can be without suffering the worst of it. I read about history, learned about political science, and talked with people who actually remember how terrible the world can be. The challenges we are nearly guaranteed to face in the next decade will come as such a brutal shock to people who've never been in danger.
You think Trump swinging "a lot of things right" isn't a big deal because you're privileged as fuck, even compared to me. I grew up near your city, and there was a common sense of ignorance that I noticed. People just didn't have the same financial concerns my family had. I always felt like an outsider in terms of class, even if the people were supposedly progressive. Get Out felt so relatable to me because I'd spent my life around out of touch liberals like you.
You're not ill intentioned, just privileged, protected by the consequences of politics. You're calling me hysterical because you're a Dunning-Kruger champagne socialist. I'm not trying to play oppression Olympics, as I'm privileged too, but you don't understand how dangerous and brutal the world is.
Says the person who wants to vote for a man who is literally actively aiding in the murder of innocent children and families. Take your sob story to a therapist and stop projecting your own lived experience onto people you know nothing about. Iâm worried about you. Do you need help?
It's the other way around in my country. The more votes the middle and left parties lost, the further they moved to the right in an attempt to claw back votes. But then there was a huge protest campaign against the right and the right started losing votes in our regular surveys (though still much too strong).
So I urge you to vote for your option that is not regularly talking about using fascist methods and undoing gained freedoms "on day one".
i see what you're saying. if only people on the right are voting, then they'll shift focus to the right, but that should pave the way for a candidate on the left that people actually want. the problem is there is no true democracy and no potential for third party candidates to actually win. I will not vote unless there is a candidate I actually want to lead the country, and/or they implement RCV or a similar voting system for presidential elections. i'll still vote for house and senate.
I can understand and respect your stance. Personally, I wouldn't take the chance of having to live under a Trump presidency though.
When does it stop tho? He can keep running as long as he wants and dems can keep taking advantage of that to do whatever they want because they know theyâll get the vote because of fear politics.
Candidates don't emerge for voters that don't vote. Because in the analysis they don't even exist, because they don't vote. It's a null data set. No politician is going to gamble on it possibly maybe existing but don't vote. No donors are going to donate to causes which the voters maybe possibly exist but don't vote. It simply doesn't happen.
Nobody here is talking about people that never vote.
New to Lemmy? There are hordes of users (no exaggeration) that say they won't vote because the Dems aren't left enough and bothsidessame.
Iâll take your word for it. Iâm only talking about people in my situation. Weâve voted in the past and arenât voting now. Presidents have won by focusing on getting out the vote for populations that have had low voter turnout.
We voted for Biden and gave him the house and senate and he still couldn't pass a pathetic $15 minimum wage... stop making excuses for them like someone voting harder will make them any less incompetent liars.
But but but but but but but but but but Biden bad!!1!1
Looks like he did $15 minimum for federal workers, ran out of time, and is asking Congress to do it for everyone (you know, because he currently doesn't have the house, you know because of votes). Lol looks like you should take your own advice and stop making excuses for yourself.
When did lemmy redefine conservatism as liberalism? Am I in some reverse world?
Everything done by the United States government before Trump was done under the liberal ideology. They've justified slavery and social security, the United Nations and support for military dictatorships, ethnic cleansing and the right to vote, all from valid use of that contradictory ideology. It's filled with amazing ideas and terrible ideas that are all at war with one another.
The major problem with it for lemmy users is how much liberals support capitalism and imperialism. Both of these things are the source of most of our biggest problems, and liberals consistently fail to restrain themselves.
Ugh, liberals
US Democracy is a type of liberalism, which was created as a reaction to mercantilism and monarchies. Basically means "individual rights, civil liberties, democracy, and free enterprise." which... US Democracy doesn't lmao.
Different word from liberal and conservative. Kind of like "mankind" doesn't just refer to men.
Hope is an illusion.
Hope is masturbation.
Act.
Hope is key to acting
Using hope as a driving factor for acting to bring the change you want to see
For example: I hope to see better pedestrian focused infrastructure in my community therefore I act in a way to make that happen. I call my reps, I talk with people I meet about it, etc.
Hope makes you more likely to succeed, even if it guarantees nothing. All predictions of the future are extremely fallible, even hopeless ones. It's no more an illusion than being a doomer who guarantees their own failure.
If you don't have hope, you have already lost.
I disappoint them by fighting back
Progressives also disappoint me. The public not being Social Democrats is my main issue.