except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago
hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide
Points to the October attack on Israel.
Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.
Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.
Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since... kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.
Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went "Well this is some Nazi shit."
200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it's an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It's easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it's not just numbers and maps and politics.
It's blood. It's broken families. It's famine. It's the destruction of everything they valued. It's PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
You claim "total war is justified". I say it's pretty much never justified.
What kind of fragile sensibilities are you talking about here?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Nope, you ignored my last message.
You said, and I cite you here: "Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me."
This is total war, yes, wholeheartedly agreed here. It is not justified in any way, shape or form.
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
And that's where I and most other Palestine supporters strongly disagree.
For starters, being attacked doesn't allow the country to breach the international treaties on the law of war. Civilian massacre and "leveling of Gaza" is a grave breach of the treaties and a war crime, it should not be supported and Netanyahu and Israeli military officials are waited for in Hague, where they need to give quite an explanation for what they've done (and certainly get arrested).
Second, the attack on Israel was carried out by a small militant group, to which the majority of Palestinians barely holds any relation. About 200 people were taken as PoW. Israel's response on that was unproportionate, with dozens of thousands of civilians killed, misplaced, and taken as PoWs. Regular people, people who did not attack Israel, are now finding themselves among one of the most cruel and lawless wars of the 21st century, with nobody able to protect them.
People of Palestine did not deserve this. They are civilians, and under the law of war, they should never be touched. There is a reason international community recognizes those rules, and Israel just decided to not give a damn. Israel is currently carrying more unnecessary, malicious violence and extermination than any other country on Earth.
As I said, under any circumstances, total war is not justified, and the international community has long formalized that. This conflict has shown how many people lack basic humanity to be able to universally recognize basic human rights long written in international laws and conventions.
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greta’s you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
That's what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit
I don't really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land "more valid"?
A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.
Wouldn't this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he's got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
bleeding hearth
Maybe check your fireplace if it's bleeding.
Does your friend have superior weaponry and the backing of major world powers? If no then he should probably live in peace in modern unified Italy.
So those claims you talked about are just bullshit and it's just about i want the land and am stronger so I just grab it. Fair enough you could have made it clear sooner so we wouldn't all waste time pretending. While we are at it putin is also good for you isn't it?
No Putin and Hamas are cut from the same cloth. Both are aggressors.
I fully support Ukraine and hope we ship them all the weapons they ask for. I hope they regain all the territory they lost and wipe Russia from the map. But at the same time if they are not able to secure the lands they lost I hope they have sense enough to know when to compromise.
The Palestinian leadership has displayed no such common sense as of yet.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, ... receive all the military help they need from, let's say, China. And they start killing "every non Nation person" because "that was our land". Would you say that's right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.
That's funny that you think you're on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn't mean it's morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it's very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain "volunteered" Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart.
No response to this of course. Don't even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling "LALALLALALALA"
There's literally a response just below yours, but of course taking the time to make sure you're actually right is never a strong point for you people.
I personally find it very funny that the pro-Palestinian go-to is that none of the offers Israel made for a 2 state solution were 'realistic' or 'serious' or 'good faith'. No one doubts that there were offers. Tell me, in what other scenario in all of human history do the losers of a war (that they started) get to dictate the terms of their surrender?
What's the ethnic makeup of Israel? What's the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You're granted citizenship automatically if you're Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it's not technically considered an ethnostate, it's about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
Maybe Israel shouldn't fund Hamas over secular orgs to manufacture the pretext for the genocide they're now committing in order to create an ethnostate.
Funding might be true. But do we have real evidence that it was done precisely for what you described? Did someone specific decided "let's give them money, so they would build rockets to bomb us, then invade to kill our citizens in an attack we'll be unprepared for and then have all the right to obliterate them and nobody would stop us"?
Incredibly loaded framing aside, what's your explanation for Israel backing a Jihadist group, and helping them displace moderate, secular alternatives while consistently using genocidal language and displacing Palestinians?
I'd say it's not loaded framing on my side, but convoluted assumptions (and possibly clairvoyance) on the other.
I may not have the explanation of why "Israel funded hamas", but I know that half the world funded Palestine for years, and that most of that help naturally must've went through hamas.
Simply put, it doesn't seem like Israel could avoid funding Palestine. Hamas could've put that money in improving lives of citizens.
Israel put a terrorist org that's hostile to them in neighbouring territories they're trying to ethnically cleanse via genocide and you can't figure it why? I suppose critical thought was never fascists' strong suit.
International funding went to Palestinians via aid orgs - not Hamas. That said, anything that did go to Hamas was because Israel put them in power - you don't get to put terrorists in power, commit war crimes, then whine when the international community sends aid to the people you're genociding. Israel is also a recipient of $3.8 billion dollars every year in US military support alone - that's comparable to the total amount of internal aid sent to Palestine between 2014 and 2020.
The problem isn't Israel funding Palestine - it's with them funding a terrorist group to put them in power, removing the secular moderates that were in place already... You know - so they could justify the genocide they've been loudly telegraphing they want to commit.
You don't get to play the victim on this one, Jitler.
Israel put a terrorist org
What?
it's with them funding a terrorist group to put them in power
And I thought it was Palestinians who chose hamas during elections. The other candidate was also a terrorist group if I'm not mistaken though, so really don't see how complicated the plan of Israel should've been for everything to play out exactly as it had.
so they could justify the genocide they've been loudly telegraphing they want to commit.
So basically the plan was "Kill us, so we could kill you" all along, huh? This is some flat earth level conspiracy.
Hamas is a terrorist org that Israel backed to replace the secular moderates - this isn't half as complex as the narrative knots you idiots tie yourselves in to defend the genocide - in not sure why you're finding this difficult.
So basically the plan was "Kill us, so we could kill you" all along, huh? This is some flat earth level conspiracy.
They've been signalling genocidal intent for years, but can't just do it without losing the US backing they need to not get obliterated by their neighbours. Why else did they help the hostile jihadists over the secular moderates? Again, really straightforward stuff.
Meanwhile, you use Nazi-tier logic to defend Nazi-tier actions.
Again, really straightforward stuff.
First, the whole matter of some country being able to affect political groups in another country being normal, as you're saying about it, is more than lousy to say the least. Israel did not create hamas. Israel could not know how it will act over the years. Israel could not know who will win the elections.
Second, proposing the idea that a modern non-jihad government would put their own population at risk of terrorist attacks in order to have a chance to do genocide of other population is ridiculous.
Third, if the "second" thing above is incorrect, they would instead fiddle with the iron dome. More specifically, there would be no iron dome in the first place - they would take all the rocket hits they could in order to show the world how aggressive terrorists are and invade Gaza asap.
you use Nazi-tier logic to defend Nazi-tier actions.
I don't know what to say here. What nazi-tier even means is beyond me. But you here basically operate with extremes like every actor does exactly what they are programmed to do. It seems to me that even if some investigation will conclude that Israel, in fact, did not intent to fund any specific group, you'll still find new twists in order to make Israel guilty of what hamas did.
Israel did not create hamas. Israel could not know how it will act over the years.
Noone said Israel created Hamas - but for them not to realise that they would be openly hostile to Israel given their rhetoric would represent a literally unbelievable level of incompetence on Israel's part. Dumb and/or dishonest.
Israel could not know who will win the elections.
They threw enough money at Hamas to help them successfully win the election. Not a guarantee, but a definite finger on the scale. Dumb and dishonest.
Second, proposing the idea that a modern non-jihad government would put their own population at risk of terrorist attacks in order to have a chance to do genocide of other population is ridiculous.
A few of hundred Israelis traded for the extermination of the Palestinians and the annexation of their territory is implausible to you? Just about any force that's conducted an annexation has paid a greater price than this - look at Russia right now. Israel aren't Islamic, so jihadist isn't a great characterisation, but they're theocratic and genocidal - a distinction without a meaningful difference. Dumb and/or dishonest.
they would instead fiddle with the iron dome.
Why? It works well enough, and they haven't bothered to invest further in it with Hamas in power and years of rocket attacks? Seems as though Netanyahu isn't too concerned about a few hundred Israeli deaths, no? Dumb or dishonest.
What nazi-tier even means is beyond me
A far-right wing fascist ethnostate doing warcrimes and genocidal bullshit. Dumb and dishonest.
What did these Israeli government representatives mean when they said...
Prime Minister Netanyahu
They (Israel/IDF) are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,”
and
You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.
and
I don’t call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals
"Defence" minister Galant
We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly
Kallner...
Nakba to the enemy now! This day is our Pearl Harbour. We will still learn the lessons. Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. A Nakba in Gaza and a Nakba for anyone who dares to join!
Atbaryan...
erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth. Gaza needs to be wiped out.
Halevi...
goals for this victory. One, there is no more Muslim land in the land of Israel. After we make it the land of Israel, Gaza should be left as a monument, like Sodom.”
In case you don't remember your Torah, here's a refresher on the Amalekites...
I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
You're not convincing anyone, Rudolph Jitler.
I can't care enough to explain contradictions in your comment. It's dumb and dishonest, also speculative.
The contradictions quoted directly from the genocidal monsters you're defending, which are dumb, dishonest, and speculative?
I'm sure you've shared your totally real explanation of the mask off genocidal admissions with your totally real girlfriend... who goes to another school... In another country - it's all definitely real though.
I wish you all the very best of luck in emulating Hitler's exit strategy, Rudolph Jitler.
When I said contradictions and "speculative" I meant only unquoted parts. Quotes parts from named persons are pretty much irrelevant and I have neither time nor interest to verify them, especially when they are mixed with accusations of religious and/or other uninteresting nature and fake names.
Plenty of credible news outlets are reporting that one. It's not a remotely controversial statement.
Ok so you're against Israel providing work permits to Palestinians?
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
From one of your articles, they're literally complaining that Israel allows Palestinians to have jobs in Israel and saying that this practice of not totally starving out Palestine is proping up Hamas.
Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.
The article is angry at him for something you almost certainly use the opposite of as a reason to call it an apartheid state or open air prison or whatever, this is something you surely think should happen right? Palestinians should be able to work in Israel, right?
They go on to talk about how he shouldn't be letting aid money into Gaza, etc
And do you agree with this from the article?
One thing is clear: The concept of indirectly strengthening Hamas — while tolerating sporadic attacks and minor military operations every few years — went up in smoke Saturday.
They argue that anything less than total military destruction of Hamas is equivalent to support, they want a boodier and more brutal war which is why they're saying the claim in the headline - surely you don't agree with that? Surely you don't think that Israel shouldn't let aid into Gaza and should attack more violently? Therefore surely you don't agree with the claim in the title.
You're parroting headlines without reading the article, probably because you've heard the claim repeated by so many people who also didn't bother to read the article and just assumed it validated their existing view.
All they needed was a "justification" to ramp up their ethnic cleansing and genocide.
So your blame is on hamas and Gaza for what Israel is doing there? Here's a question, if there are terrorists hiding under a school or who were hiding in Manhattan or Tel Aviv. Would it be justified to bomb everything like what happened in Gaza?
Well, New York is American soil, if Terrorists were hiding under a building there I hope our government can surgically remove them. I then hope that our government would glass whatever shit hole those terrorists came from.
Tel Aviv is Israelis territory, it’s response is up to their leadership and the will of populace.
...Just make sure not to pay any attention to Netanyahu's approval rating.
You apply this principle consistently and argue Hitler did nothing wrong because the German public supported his actions, right?
Hot take, but I think genocide is bad, personally.
By your logic, the Innocents killed on 9/11 brought it on themselves.
Well yea, to be fair if half these Redditors Lemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq
The United States created the conditions for the blowback that resulted in the 9/11 attacks
selfawarewolf?
american war on taliban was the well accepted result.
israels war on gazians.... same.
Wow that is some amazing mental gymnastics there. I sure do hope you don’t strain yourself with all those logical fallacies you are jumping through.
Maybe you shouldn't talk shit
Oooo internet tough guy.
Oppression causes terrorism. Israel made Hamas. Why? Because Israel wants an excuse to escalate the conflict
Thats it, shut it down people, we’ve gone full circle. Israel is killing its own people by killing the people who want to kill them…
Your mental gymnastics deserve a gold medal for that performance.
Maybe Hamas shouldn’t start shit.
except the israelis were the ones starting shit 7 decades ago
hamas is just a convenient excuse for genocide
Points to the October attack on Israel.
Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me.
Ah yes. History began on October 7th. There is no context to anything involving anything prior to October 7th 2023.
Although even looking at just October 7th and what has happened since... kind of elucidates what the fuck has been going on.
Hell even 7 decades ago Einstein was looking at what was just starting and went "Well this is some Nazi shit."
200 dead from a terrorist attack committed by terrorists justifies 20,000 civilian deaths by carpet bombing and levelling entire communities?
Total war is not just an abstract political move, it's an immense suffering and deaths of dozens of thousands of civilians.
It's easy to play political mastermind from the safety and comfort of your home. People who witnessed war know full well what it entails, and they know it's not just numbers and maps and politics.
It's blood. It's broken families. It's famine. It's the destruction of everything they valued. It's PTSD for just about everyone who managed to survive.
Think twice before saying things like that. Please.
I’m simply describing the situation in Gaza for what it is, Total War. I’m not advocating for it, but I recognize that Israel is going to respond to October 7 as they see fit.
Would you rather I described it in a way that didn’t hurt your fragile sensibilities?
You claim "total war is justified". I say it's pretty much never justified.
What kind of fragile sensibilities are you talking about here?
The fact that I described the current situation as “Total war”. Seems to offend you. Should I say both sides are making a “fluffy”, would that make you feel better?
Nope, you ignored my last message.
You said, and I cite you here: "Total war on Gaza looks pretty damn justified to me."
This is total war, yes, wholeheartedly agreed here. It is not justified in any way, shape or form.
Sorry it’s been a day between posting and responding. On top of that there are a lot of tools in this thread and it hard to keep every conversation straight.
But in short Israel is a sovereign nation whose citizens were just attacked in a large scale well coordinated manner. They have every right to go after the perpetrators. If total war and the leveling of Gaza is what it takes and they have the ability to execute it then so be it.
And that's where I and most other Palestine supporters strongly disagree.
For starters, being attacked doesn't allow the country to breach the international treaties on the law of war. Civilian massacre and "leveling of Gaza" is a grave breach of the treaties and a war crime, it should not be supported and Netanyahu and Israeli military officials are waited for in Hague, where they need to give quite an explanation for what they've done (and certainly get arrested).
Second, the attack on Israel was carried out by a small militant group, to which the majority of Palestinians barely holds any relation. About 200 people were taken as PoW. Israel's response on that was unproportionate, with dozens of thousands of civilians killed, misplaced, and taken as PoWs. Regular people, people who did not attack Israel, are now finding themselves among one of the most cruel and lawless wars of the 21st century, with nobody able to protect them.
People of Palestine did not deserve this. They are civilians, and under the law of war, they should never be touched. There is a reason international community recognizes those rules, and Israel just decided to not give a damn. Israel is currently carrying more unnecessary, malicious violence and extermination than any other country on Earth.
As I said, under any circumstances, total war is not justified, and the international community has long formalized that. This conflict has shown how many people lack basic humanity to be able to universally recognize basic human rights long written in international laws and conventions.
missed the /s?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba
Sucks to be on the wrong side of history. No one wants to loose their communities, property or livelihoods. However the Jews had a claim to the area going back thousands of years and they needed to go somewhere.
There were many Jewish communities across the Middle East prior to the 1940s that no longer exist anymore either. I wonder who pushed them out… do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding heart?
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
Who the fuck cares about a claim from thousands of years ago? Can you even count how many Greta’s you would have to add to even reach your goat herder of a grandpa back when Jesus was still around?
This is just trying to revive a dead dream and we all get to suffer for it.
That's what drives me crazy about dated religions and ultra nationalism. We could have flying cars if people stopped with this shit
I don't really get the logic: is an older claim or a more recent claim to land "more valid"?
A recent claim is better. I care about the partitioning of the lands with the Sykes Picot Agreement, I don’t care about some inbred king of sandland did back in 147AD.
Wouldn't this mean that the millions of Israelis born in Israel over the last 80 years probably have the strongest claim to the land (at least the internationally recognized 1967 borders anyway)? 1916 is not particularly recent
Yeah i think a couple of Neanderthals descendants have claims that go back tens of thousands of years. do they get the same sentiment from your bleeding hearth?
Also my cousin has Etruscan blood, should he kick Italians out of Italy as he has a claim that goes back TWO thousands years and he's got nowhere to go since his wife kicked him out?
Maybe check your fireplace if it's bleeding.
Does your friend have superior weaponry and the backing of major world powers? If no then he should probably live in peace in modern unified Italy.
So those claims you talked about are just bullshit and it's just about i want the land and am stronger so I just grab it. Fair enough you could have made it clear sooner so we wouldn't all waste time pretending. While we are at it putin is also good for you isn't it?
No Putin and Hamas are cut from the same cloth. Both are aggressors.
I fully support Ukraine and hope we ship them all the weapons they ask for. I hope they regain all the territory they lost and wipe Russia from the map. But at the same time if they are not able to secure the lands they lost I hope they have sense enough to know when to compromise.
The Palestinian leadership has displayed no such common sense as of yet.
Now imagine a civil war begins in the US. Both sides get too weak. And then the Cherokee, Apache, ... receive all the military help they need from, let's say, China. And they start killing "every non Nation person" because "that was our land". Would you say that's right and that all and every white/black/Asian person deserve it?
I’ll take “Imaginary things that will never happen” for $500 Alex.
That's funny that you think you're on the right side of history for supporting a genocidal ethnostate.
I guess we’ll see in 50 years which nation still exists.
Looks at all of Palestine’s immediate neighbors in the Middle East who won’t even lift a finger to even admit refugees.
I think I know where I’ll put my money.
Might makes right, huh? I already know Palestine will be completely ethnically cleansed and then israel will move onto taking parts of Syria and other countries in their goal of lebensraum. That doesn't mean it's morally right.
You either didn’t read my comment from earlier in the thread or you enjoy trying to frame an argument.
I’ll post it below for you to read and educate yourself.
There have been two state solutions on the table with Jerusalem as the Palestinian capital on the table multiple times. Palestinians turned every one of them down. Instead of building their own state they will be further pushed out of Gaza. Where they go is anyones guess no one wants them, especially other Muslim states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
TLDR: Palestine will be wiped of the map unless they choose a different path. Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The negotiations were argued in bad faith. Israel would put forth ridiculous demands and then lay the blame on Palestine for rejecting them. Why do you think Palestinians are being pushed out of Gaza and have been continually and constantly pushed out for decades? There was never a sincere effort for a two-state solution.
Nobody wants to take on many refugees all at once, it's very difficult to manage. Why do you think Britain "volunteered" Palestinian land to relocate Jews out of Europe? It wasn't out of the goodness of their heart.
No response to this of course. Don't even expect one. They are currently with their fingers in their ears yelling "LALALLALALALA"
There's literally a response just below yours, but of course taking the time to make sure you're actually right is never a strong point for you people.
I personally find it very funny that the pro-Palestinian go-to is that none of the offers Israel made for a 2 state solution were 'realistic' or 'serious' or 'good faith'. No one doubts that there were offers. Tell me, in what other scenario in all of human history do the losers of a war (that they started) get to dictate the terms of their surrender?
What's the ethnic makeup of Israel? What's the ethnic makeup of Palestine? Which one is closer to the definition of an ethno state? Do words not mean anything to you?
You're granted citizenship automatically if you're Jewish and you get a free trip to go there. Being Jewish grants one special privileges. The country is based entirely on ethnicity and was established with that as a core principle. If it's not technically considered an ethnostate, it's about the closest that a country can be one without being one in that case.
Maybe Israel shouldn't fund Hamas over secular orgs to manufacture the pretext for the genocide they're now committing in order to create an ethnostate.
Funding might be true. But do we have real evidence that it was done precisely for what you described? Did someone specific decided "let's give them money, so they would build rockets to bomb us, then invade to kill our citizens in an attack we'll be unprepared for and then have all the right to obliterate them and nobody would stop us"?
Incredibly loaded framing aside, what's your explanation for Israel backing a Jihadist group, and helping them displace moderate, secular alternatives while consistently using genocidal language and displacing Palestinians?
I'd say it's not loaded framing on my side, but convoluted assumptions (and possibly clairvoyance) on the other.
I may not have the explanation of why "Israel funded hamas", but I know that half the world funded Palestine for years, and that most of that help naturally must've went through hamas.
Simply put, it doesn't seem like Israel could avoid funding Palestine. Hamas could've put that money in improving lives of citizens.
Israel put a terrorist org that's hostile to them in neighbouring territories they're trying to ethnically cleanse via genocide and you can't figure it why? I suppose critical thought was never fascists' strong suit.
International funding went to Palestinians via aid orgs - not Hamas. That said, anything that did go to Hamas was because Israel put them in power - you don't get to put terrorists in power, commit war crimes, then whine when the international community sends aid to the people you're genociding. Israel is also a recipient of $3.8 billion dollars every year in US military support alone - that's comparable to the total amount of internal aid sent to Palestine between 2014 and 2020.
The problem isn't Israel funding Palestine - it's with them funding a terrorist group to put them in power, removing the secular moderates that were in place already... You know - so they could justify the genocide they've been loudly telegraphing they want to commit.
You don't get to play the victim on this one, Jitler.
What?
And I thought it was Palestinians who chose hamas during elections. The other candidate was also a terrorist group if I'm not mistaken though, so really don't see how complicated the plan of Israel should've been for everything to play out exactly as it had.
So basically the plan was "Kill us, so we could kill you" all along, huh? This is some flat earth level conspiracy.
Hamas is a terrorist org that Israel backed to replace the secular moderates - this isn't half as complex as the narrative knots you idiots tie yourselves in to defend the genocide - in not sure why you're finding this difficult.
They've been signalling genocidal intent for years, but can't just do it without losing the US backing they need to not get obliterated by their neighbours. Why else did they help the hostile jihadists over the secular moderates? Again, really straightforward stuff.
Meanwhile, you use Nazi-tier logic to defend Nazi-tier actions.
First, the whole matter of some country being able to affect political groups in another country being normal, as you're saying about it, is more than lousy to say the least. Israel did not create hamas. Israel could not know how it will act over the years. Israel could not know who will win the elections.
Second, proposing the idea that a modern non-jihad government would put their own population at risk of terrorist attacks in order to have a chance to do genocide of other population is ridiculous.
Third, if the "second" thing above is incorrect, they would instead fiddle with the iron dome. More specifically, there would be no iron dome in the first place - they would take all the rocket hits they could in order to show the world how aggressive terrorists are and invade Gaza asap.
I don't know what to say here. What nazi-tier even means is beyond me. But you here basically operate with extremes like every actor does exactly what they are programmed to do. It seems to me that even if some investigation will conclude that Israel, in fact, did not intent to fund any specific group, you'll still find new twists in order to make Israel guilty of what hamas did.
Noone said Israel created Hamas - but for them not to realise that they would be openly hostile to Israel given their rhetoric would represent a literally unbelievable level of incompetence on Israel's part. Dumb and/or dishonest.
They threw enough money at Hamas to help them successfully win the election. Not a guarantee, but a definite finger on the scale. Dumb and dishonest.
A few of hundred Israelis traded for the extermination of the Palestinians and the annexation of their territory is implausible to you? Just about any force that's conducted an annexation has paid a greater price than this - look at Russia right now. Israel aren't Islamic, so jihadist isn't a great characterisation, but they're theocratic and genocidal - a distinction without a meaningful difference. Dumb and/or dishonest.
Why? It works well enough, and they haven't bothered to invest further in it with Hamas in power and years of rocket attacks? Seems as though Netanyahu isn't too concerned about a few hundred Israeli deaths, no? Dumb or dishonest.
A far-right wing fascist ethnostate doing warcrimes and genocidal bullshit. Dumb and dishonest.
What did these Israeli government representatives mean when they said...
Prime Minister Netanyahu
and
and
"Defence" minister Galant
Kallner...
Atbaryan...
Halevi...
In case you don't remember your Torah, here's a refresher on the Amalekites... I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.
You're not convincing anyone, Rudolph Jitler.
I can't care enough to explain contradictions in your comment. It's dumb and dishonest, also speculative.
The contradictions quoted directly from the genocidal monsters you're defending, which are dumb, dishonest, and speculative?
I'm sure you've shared your totally real explanation of the mask off genocidal admissions with your totally real girlfriend... who goes to another school... In another country - it's all definitely real though.
I wish you all the very best of luck in emulating Hitler's exit strategy, Rudolph Jitler.
When I said contradictions and "speculative" I meant only unquoted parts. Quotes parts from named persons are pretty much irrelevant and I have neither time nor interest to verify them, especially when they are mixed with accusations of religious and/or other uninteresting nature and fake names.
Do you know that's a baseless conspiracy you're pedaling?
Yeah - nah.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Plenty of credible news outlets are reporting that one. It's not a remotely controversial statement.
Ok so you're against Israel providing work permits to Palestinians?
From one of your articles, they're literally complaining that Israel allows Palestinians to have jobs in Israel and saying that this practice of not totally starving out Palestine is proping up Hamas.
The article is angry at him for something you almost certainly use the opposite of as a reason to call it an apartheid state or open air prison or whatever, this is something you surely think should happen right? Palestinians should be able to work in Israel, right?
They go on to talk about how he shouldn't be letting aid money into Gaza, etc
And do you agree with this from the article?
They argue that anything less than total military destruction of Hamas is equivalent to support, they want a boodier and more brutal war which is why they're saying the claim in the headline - surely you don't agree with that? Surely you don't think that Israel shouldn't let aid into Gaza and should attack more violently? Therefore surely you don't agree with the claim in the title.
You're parroting headlines without reading the article, probably because you've heard the claim repeated by so many people who also didn't bother to read the article and just assumed it validated their existing view.
The story doesn't start on oct 7th.
But the current chapter does. Gaza would look a lot different today if the October 7th attack had not happened.
Shit it would look like a fucking paradise if they had taken one of the many two state solution deals they were offered.
This shit has been planned for a long time. Here's just one example of the plan being shown out in the open before october 7th: https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-brandishes-map-of-israel-that-includes-west-bank-and-gaza-at-un-speech/
All they needed was a "justification" to ramp up their ethnic cleansing and genocide.
So your blame is on hamas and Gaza for what Israel is doing there? Here's a question, if there are terrorists hiding under a school or who were hiding in Manhattan or Tel Aviv. Would it be justified to bomb everything like what happened in Gaza?
Well, New York is American soil, if Terrorists were hiding under a building there I hope our government can surgically remove them. I then hope that our government would glass whatever shit hole those terrorists came from.
Tel Aviv is Israelis territory, it’s response is up to their leadership and the will of populace.
...Just make sure not to pay any attention to Netanyahu's approval rating.
You apply this principle consistently and argue Hitler did nothing wrong because the German public supported his actions, right?
Hot take, but I think genocide is bad, personally.
By your logic, the Innocents killed on 9/11 brought it on themselves.
Well yea, to be fair if half these
RedditorsLemmies lived in the Middle East they would be calling for the genocide of the US after what happened in Afghanistan and IraqThe United States created the conditions for the blowback that resulted in the 9/11 attacks
selfawarewolf?
american war on taliban was the well accepted result. israels war on gazians.... same.
Wow that is some amazing mental gymnastics there. I sure do hope you don’t strain yourself with all those logical fallacies you are jumping through.
Maybe you shouldn't talk shit
Oooo internet tough guy.
Oppression causes terrorism. Israel made Hamas. Why? Because Israel wants an excuse to escalate the conflict
Thats it, shut it down people, we’ve gone full circle. Israel is killing its own people by killing the people who want to kill them…
Your mental gymnastics deserve a gold medal for that performance.