You know that scene in mad Max fury road where women are pumped for their breast milk? Turns out we've been doing the same thing to cows for a while.
And now we’re doing it to the almonds smh
thank u cows for the milk 😋
Love seeing more vegan memes and content.
What is with all the anti-meat industry posts popping up recently? It's starting to feel like an astroturf campaign...
Most likely more people being aware of it, and then people seeing those posts doing well leads to more posts like that
Arguably, you should be moreso concerned about the opposite. The industry runs well known astroturfing campaigns:
NCBA [National Cattlemen’s Beef Association] calls it “proactive reputation management”: a strategy that entails monitoring the internet for messaging opportunities, then leaping in to burnish beef’s image whenever it’s advantageous
The meat industry has helped fund research and communications initiatives to minimize its links to climate change. And it has organized astroturf attacks on initiatives like EAT-Lancet
You are literally the one posting these. It's all you appear to post about.
There are plenty of other people posting about the meat industry. I've seen people making the same comments on places. It's also in part because many people are just seeing the vegan circle jerk community posts on the all feed. That also shapes perception too
One example of someone complaining about just that on someone else's post (comment ended up getting removed by a mod because of other parts of their comment, but you can infer based on replies)
https://lemmy.ml/post/16139346/11287396
Don't give up on posting. I like those posts.
Yes. Mostly one topic posters.
Vegans posting about the meat industry are the like non-gamers posting about the evils of the gaming industry with a dash of moral superiority.
It's weird for someone to center their entire online personality around something they do not do.
The example honestly doesn't make much sense to me. You take issue with someone daring to want to talk about the worker abuses in the gaming industry? Are we to forbid someone from being passionate about an issue?
Someone caring about the harm in an industry doesn't make them think they are "morally superior". Posting about the harms in an industry is to raise awareness of that harm. It's not about one self at all
Your passion is no different than that of the antiabortionists.
You won't accept nuance, you don't want to have a discussion, you want your agenda to be heard and the world to bend to your view of how things ought to be.
Your passion is no different than that of the antiabortionists.
You won't accept nuance
These two statements juxtaposed just took 7 years off my life
I do accept discussion, and rely heavily on source based discussion. I cite nearly everything I say. See how I cited two sources earlier when I made a claim about meat industry funded astroturfing
When people have critiques based on their own sources, or methodological/other critiques of the sources I provide, there is a good back and forth.
Even when other people never provide a single source, I still converse and provide sources for my claims
I qualify my claims to reflect what the data and research actually says. That's what nuance looks like. When people argue for a specific claim that makes things more complicated, I respond to their claim about that specific issue. That's also what nuance looks like
Antiabortionists cite sources too. The passion and certainty are the same.
Vegans aren't trying to clean up the food industry, they want to end it. Raising the issues with it just a means to that end. There are few if any vegans arguing for a cleaner animal husbandry practices.
Many vegans recognize it as a choice, like the abortion issue, they aren't against any abortions they only choose not to themselves have an abortion. They aren't discussing the horrors of the abortion industry on the internet.
> Vegans aren’t trying to clean up the food industry, they want to end it
If we're going to talk about ignoring nuance, making statements like that isn't doing any favors. Animal agriculture =/= the entire food industry. Plant agriculture exists as well
> Many vegans recognize it as a choice, like the abortion issue, they aren’t against any abortions they only choose not to themselves have an abortion
The problem with that characterization is that things can really only be a personal choice with no effects on any one else when we're talking about non-sentient beings. Without that presumption the assertion makes less sense. For instance, most in the west generally don't conceptualize killing a random healthy dog as a personal choice.
Even if we set aside the creatures themselves, the environmental factors alone make it difficult to conceptualize as a pure 100% personal choice. Is it a personal choice to let an industry keep us from climate targets on their own?
To have any hope of meeting the central goal of the Paris Agreement, which is to limit global warming to 2°C or less, our carbon emissions must be reduced considerably, including those coming from agriculture. Clark et al. show that even if fossil fuel emissions were eliminated immediately, emissions from the global food system alone would make it impossible to limit warming to 1.5°C and difficult even to realize the 2°C target. Thus, major changes in how food is produced are needed if we want to meet the goals of the Paris Agreement.
And the issue on that end is quite fundamental. It takes a lot of feed to raise non-human animals. They lose most of the energy using it to perform body functions, move around, etc. Even best case production just comes out worse than worst case plant production for humans
Plant-based foods have a significantly smaller footprint on the environment than animal-based foods. Even the least sustainable vegetables and cereals cause less environmental harm than the lowest impact meat and dairy products [9].
If you tried to use something like grass-fed production instead, you'd find it generally does not scale and ends up with increased methane production
We model a nationwide transition [in the US] from grain- to grass-finishing systems using demographics of present-day beef cattle. In order to produce the same quantity of beef as the present-day system, we find that a nationwide shift to exclusively grass-fed beef would require increasing the national cattle herd from 77 to 100 million cattle, an increase of 30%. We also find that the current pastureland grass resource can support only 27% of the current beef supply (27 million cattle), an amount 30% smaller than prior estimates
[…]
If beef consumption is not reduced and is instead satisfied by greater imports of grass-fed beef, a switch to purely grass-fed systems would likely result in higher environmental costs, including higher overall
methane emissions. Thus, only reductions in beef consumption can guarantee reductions in the environmental impact of US food systems.
Your idea of nuance would have us all sitting on our hands while unsustainable industries make the world we live in uninhabitable and put an end to humanity as we know it.
Look at it another way - do we REALLY need that much meat production? Probably not. Vegans have been living just fine this whole tome, and meat is very resource intensive to produce anyway, so one could argue you'd get even more food from stopping.
Is it causing massive issues even aside from the suffering of animals? Yeah, agriculture plays quite a significant part in CO2 emissions. Not to mention the polluting of rivers.
Also, I don't really see your point of 'they don't want to have a discussion'. You're literally having a discussion with them right now.
Hot take: It's good when non-gamers talk about abuses in the gaming industry
I don't commit genocide in ukraine and I very much don't support it. Why would that be different for animals that are treated even worse?
Astroturfing implies that a corporation or government agency with large amounts of funding are paying individuals or bots to spread misinformation for their employer's financial or strategic benefit.
You might not know this, but there isn't a "Big Vegan" industry with deep pockets to financially support astroturfing. Agrobusinesses that grow vegetation make more money off the meat industry than they would if they centered their produce around vegetarian or vegan diets. Businesses that do cater to vegans barely manage to scrape by and have no margins to support social media manipulation; they barely even have budget for conventional marketing.
What you're actually witnessing is legitimate grassroots efforts to inform people about the harm that the meat industry causes. You see "astroturfing" doesn't mean "a lot of people are saying things I don't like". It actually means "grassroots campaign but fake", hence the name "astroturf", which is a fake kind of grass.
but there isn't a "Big Vegan" industry with deep pockets to financially support astroturfing.
Well then who keeps sending me all this free tofu with envelopes of cash taped to it whenever I upvote a pro-vegan meme?
Shhhh we can't let them know that George Soros is secretly a radical leftist vegan.
Today I learned people sharing their opinions is "astroturfing"
They are all being posted by the same account.
Almost all the dogshit takes in this thread are being posted by the same account, but I don't accuse you of astroturfing
One person posting a lot is not astroturfing. Astroturfing is about faking the appearance that many different people support the same cause. If it's the same account doing all the posting then they're not trying to give the appearance of being many different people.
At worst you could call it spamming. But personally I hope they keep up the spamming because seeing all troglodyte meat industry shills make asses out of themselves is giving me a new lease on life.
Mfw you don't know what astroturfing is
The fediverse is just hugely left-wing and with a lot of far-flung left wing posters to boot. It’s not an astroturf campaign just a place a lot of outsiders gather.
I don’t know who would pay for this, there isn’t really any moneyed interest that would gain from turning public opinion against meat
Trolls that primarily are active on vegan communities learning they could troll here without the mods telling them to pack it up.
TIL caring about issues that cause unimaginable degrees of unnecessary suffering and also threaten to end human civilization as we know it is trolling.
For most of the decade I was on Reddit, vegan support was always met with vitriolic opposition unless it was on a vegan-friendly sub. But the last year or so I was on that platform I remember being really surprised to see a trend towards anti-vegan sentiment becoming the unpopular opinion. I was surprised again once I joined Lemmy to see that anti-vegan culture seems to be the popular opinion here, though I'm noticing there is also a stronger pro-vegan culture than there had been for most of my time on Reddit.
you post 2 memes like this per day and then wonder why people hate vegans
You don't have to be vegan to agree that animal farming of the 21st century is cruel and we could do better than that
But it's easier to whinge like a reactionary at the people demanding an end to the systematic breeding into existence of animals for the sole purpose of exploiting and killing when ending that unfathomably cruel system gives me the ickies 😭
Animals don't inherently deserve ethical treatment. My only gripe is the carbon emissions, so I just eat lots of chicken
Vegans when they ruin every community they preach in, other than !vegan.
When the staunchly leftist community has more vegan users then average (who would've guessed???)
Actually, it's quite surprising and disappointing how most leftists (or ostensibly left-leaning people) correctly shape their political views around being anti-exploitation and pro-liberation, only to immediately become reactionaries when it comes to ending animal exploitation.
Yeah it's actually really funny how many hardcore leftists turn into neoliberals the second a vegan walks into the room.
I was more referring to like, given that most vegans tend to be leftist, any community that has a lot of leftists is probably going to have more than a few vegans.
dont care what you eat but more than half my feed has been vegan protesting and im starting to get annoyed (yes i eat meat yes im trying to reduce my consumtion of said meat(it tastes bad)but ffs go post this shit in some steak subreddit where people will see it that should)
Would you say the same thing if the posts were protesting a different issue?
Pro-environment memes get posted here all the time and nobody complains about them, even though they almost certainly outweigh the vegan ones.
thats a fair point ig
Or maybe you need to recognize when a message is only going to continue to grow, and get louder. Get with the times.
Well said.
That's because animals aren't human. They should be exploited
No, they should not. What the fuck is wrong with you?
How would you feel if someone killed your pets
when people stop being exploited then I'll worry about the animals.
Then that's just one more reason to go vegan, since animal ag workers are some of the most exploited people. Plus, animal ag industry is one of the top funders of the republican party. Supporting the exploitation and commodification of non-human animals is one of the best ways to just keep on supporting fascism in general, so congrats on that I guess.
still waiting on cow school and cow college and cow work i assume?
More than a third of US children do not live with both of their biological parents. If we are okay with separating human children from their parents, why should we treat cows better?
What an absolutely bizarre whataboutism, so vapid and self-evidently disingenuous that I can't believe I'm about to waste my time picking it apart, but here we go:
First of all, rescuing children from traumatically abusive environments is not the same as what the meat industry does to calves. Separation from parents is inherently traumatic itself, but that needs to be weighed against the degree of harm that the abusive parent might do, on a case-by-case basis.
Secondly, there are certainly cases of the government separating children from their parents that should be protested. Like when Texas defines transgender-affirming households to be committing child abuse and uses that as a reason to forcibly separate the child. Or when immigration control separates migrant children from their parents.
This might come as a shock to you, but it's possible to care about and advocate for more than one issue at a time. I don't know if your emotional capacity might be limited to just caring about one thing, but most people don't suffer from that limitation.
What a braindead argument. Sometimes bad things happen to human children so we can excuse animal cruelty on an industrial scale.
And it's not just the separation, 99% of male calves are killed immediately after being born, while females are either filled with hormones so they can be grown for meat, or they are raped year after year so they keep producing milk.
For some sources to back that up
Some of their claims are beyond dispute: Dairy cows are repeatedly impregnated by artificial insemination and have their newborns taken away at birth. Female calves are confined to individual pens and have their horn buds destroyed when they are about eight weeks old. The males are not so lucky. Soon after birth, they are trucked off to veal farms or cattle ranches where they end up as hamburger meat.
The typical dairy cow in the United States will spend its entire life inside a concrete-floored enclosure, and although they can live 20 years, most are sent to slaughter after four or five years when their milk production wanes.
99% of male calves are killed immediately after being born
that's not true.
Not living with biological parents is different than being seperated, living alone in small veal cages, and ultimately being killed as a child for veal as happens for male calves
We also do not intentionally seperate all child from their parents regardless of circumstances. Maybe a tiny amount from child protective services for abusive parents, but it's not like the dairy industry is doing so because of abusive cow parents
You know that scene in mad Max fury road where women are pumped for their breast milk? Turns out we've been doing the same thing to cows for a while.
And now we’re doing it to the almonds smh
thank u cows for the milk 😋
Love seeing more vegan memes and content.
What is with all the anti-meat industry posts popping up recently? It's starting to feel like an astroturf campaign...
Most likely more people being aware of it, and then people seeing those posts doing well leads to more posts like that
Arguably, you should be moreso concerned about the opposite. The industry runs well known astroturfing campaigns:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/may/03/beef-industry-public-relations-messaging-machine
https://newrepublic.com/article/177575/never-trust-green-meat
You are literally the one posting these. It's all you appear to post about.
There are plenty of other people posting about the meat industry. I've seen people making the same comments on places. It's also in part because many people are just seeing the vegan circle jerk community posts on the all feed. That also shapes perception too
One example of someone complaining about just that on someone else's post (comment ended up getting removed by a mod because of other parts of their comment, but you can infer based on replies) https://lemmy.ml/post/16139346/11287396
Don't give up on posting. I like those posts.
Yes. Mostly one topic posters.
Vegans posting about the meat industry are the like non-gamers posting about the evils of the gaming industry with a dash of moral superiority.
It's weird for someone to center their entire online personality around something they do not do.
The example honestly doesn't make much sense to me. You take issue with someone daring to want to talk about the worker abuses in the gaming industry? Are we to forbid someone from being passionate about an issue?
Someone caring about the harm in an industry doesn't make them think they are "morally superior". Posting about the harms in an industry is to raise awareness of that harm. It's not about one self at all
Your passion is no different than that of the antiabortionists.
You won't accept nuance, you don't want to have a discussion, you want your agenda to be heard and the world to bend to your view of how things ought to be.
These two statements juxtaposed just took 7 years off my life
I do accept discussion, and rely heavily on source based discussion. I cite nearly everything I say. See how I cited two sources earlier when I made a claim about meat industry funded astroturfing
When people have critiques based on their own sources, or methodological/other critiques of the sources I provide, there is a good back and forth.
Even when other people never provide a single source, I still converse and provide sources for my claims
I qualify my claims to reflect what the data and research actually says. That's what nuance looks like. When people argue for a specific claim that makes things more complicated, I respond to their claim about that specific issue. That's also what nuance looks like
Antiabortionists cite sources too. The passion and certainty are the same.
Vegans aren't trying to clean up the food industry, they want to end it. Raising the issues with it just a means to that end. There are few if any vegans arguing for a cleaner animal husbandry practices.
Many vegans recognize it as a choice, like the abortion issue, they aren't against any abortions they only choose not to themselves have an abortion. They aren't discussing the horrors of the abortion industry on the internet.
> Vegans aren’t trying to clean up the food industry, they want to end it
If we're going to talk about ignoring nuance, making statements like that isn't doing any favors. Animal agriculture =/= the entire food industry. Plant agriculture exists as well
> Many vegans recognize it as a choice, like the abortion issue, they aren’t against any abortions they only choose not to themselves have an abortion
The problem with that characterization is that things can really only be a personal choice with no effects on any one else when we're talking about non-sentient beings. Without that presumption the assertion makes less sense. For instance, most in the west generally don't conceptualize killing a random healthy dog as a personal choice.
Even if we set aside the creatures themselves, the environmental factors alone make it difficult to conceptualize as a pure 100% personal choice. Is it a personal choice to let an industry keep us from climate targets on their own?
(emphasis mine)
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aba7357
And the issue on that end is quite fundamental. It takes a lot of feed to raise non-human animals. They lose most of the energy using it to perform body functions, move around, etc. Even best case production just comes out worse than worst case plant production for humans
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/14/8/1614/html
If you tried to use something like grass-fed production instead, you'd find it generally does not scale and ends up with increased methane production
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aad401
Your idea of nuance would have us all sitting on our hands while unsustainable industries make the world we live in uninhabitable and put an end to humanity as we know it.
Look at it another way - do we REALLY need that much meat production? Probably not. Vegans have been living just fine this whole tome, and meat is very resource intensive to produce anyway, so one could argue you'd get even more food from stopping.
Is it causing massive issues even aside from the suffering of animals? Yeah, agriculture plays quite a significant part in CO2 emissions. Not to mention the polluting of rivers.
Also, I don't really see your point of 'they don't want to have a discussion'. You're literally having a discussion with them right now.
Hot take: It's good when non-gamers talk about abuses in the gaming industry
I don't commit genocide in ukraine and I very much don't support it. Why would that be different for animals that are treated even worse?
?????????????
Astroturfing implies that a corporation or government agency with large amounts of funding are paying individuals or bots to spread misinformation for their employer's financial or strategic benefit.
You might not know this, but there isn't a "Big Vegan" industry with deep pockets to financially support astroturfing. Agrobusinesses that grow vegetation make more money off the meat industry than they would if they centered their produce around vegetarian or vegan diets. Businesses that do cater to vegans barely manage to scrape by and have no margins to support social media manipulation; they barely even have budget for conventional marketing.
What you're actually witnessing is legitimate grassroots efforts to inform people about the harm that the meat industry causes. You see "astroturfing" doesn't mean "a lot of people are saying things I don't like". It actually means "grassroots campaign but fake", hence the name "astroturf", which is a fake kind of grass.
Well then who keeps sending me all this free tofu with envelopes of cash taped to it whenever I upvote a pro-vegan meme?
Shhhh we can't let them know that George Soros is secretly a radical leftist vegan.
Today I learned people sharing their opinions is "astroturfing"
They are all being posted by the same account.
Almost all the dogshit takes in this thread are being posted by the same account, but I don't accuse you of astroturfing
One person posting a lot is not astroturfing. Astroturfing is about faking the appearance that many different people support the same cause. If it's the same account doing all the posting then they're not trying to give the appearance of being many different people.
At worst you could call it spamming. But personally I hope they keep up the spamming because seeing all troglodyte meat industry shills make asses out of themselves is giving me a new lease on life.
Mfw you don't know what astroturfing is
The fediverse is just hugely left-wing and with a lot of far-flung left wing posters to boot. It’s not an astroturf campaign just a place a lot of outsiders gather.
I don’t know who would pay for this, there isn’t really any moneyed interest that would gain from turning public opinion against meat
Trolls that primarily are active on vegan communities learning they could troll here without the mods telling them to pack it up.
TIL caring about issues that cause unimaginable degrees of unnecessary suffering and also threaten to end human civilization as we know it is trolling.
For most of the decade I was on Reddit, vegan support was always met with vitriolic opposition unless it was on a vegan-friendly sub. But the last year or so I was on that platform I remember being really surprised to see a trend towards anti-vegan sentiment becoming the unpopular opinion. I was surprised again once I joined Lemmy to see that anti-vegan culture seems to be the popular opinion here, though I'm noticing there is also a stronger pro-vegan culture than there had been for most of my time on Reddit.
you post 2 memes like this per day and then wonder why people hate vegans
You don't have to be vegan to agree that animal farming of the 21st century is cruel and we could do better than that
But it's easier to whinge like a reactionary at the people demanding an end to the systematic breeding into existence of animals for the sole purpose of exploiting and killing when ending that unfathomably cruel system gives me the ickies 😭
Animals don't inherently deserve ethical treatment. My only gripe is the carbon emissions, so I just eat lots of chicken
Chickens don't fart?
How do you feel about dog fighting?
“”Why are there so many extra quotes?””
""Yes""
They're used to emphasize the dubiousness of the thing quoted. You can search for """ on whatever instance and see various examples.
Vegans when they ruin every community they preach in, other than !vegan.
When the staunchly leftist community has more vegan users then average (who would've guessed???)
Actually, it's quite surprising and disappointing how most leftists (or ostensibly left-leaning people) correctly shape their political views around being anti-exploitation and pro-liberation, only to immediately become reactionaries when it comes to ending animal exploitation.
Yeah it's actually really funny how many hardcore leftists turn into neoliberals the second a vegan walks into the room.
I was more referring to like, given that most vegans tend to be leftist, any community that has a lot of leftists is probably going to have more than a few vegans.
dont care what you eat but more than half my feed has been vegan protesting and im starting to get annoyed (yes i eat meat yes im trying to reduce my consumtion of said meat(it tastes bad)but ffs go post this shit in some steak subreddit where people will see it that should)
Would you say the same thing if the posts were protesting a different issue?
Pro-environment memes get posted here all the time and nobody complains about them, even though they almost certainly outweigh the vegan ones.
thats a fair point ig
Or maybe you need to recognize when a message is only going to continue to grow, and get louder. Get with the times.
Well said.
That's because animals aren't human. They should be exploited
No, they should not. What the fuck is wrong with you?
How would you feel if someone killed your pets
when people stop being exploited then I'll worry about the animals.
Then that's just one more reason to go vegan, since animal ag workers are some of the most exploited people. Plus, animal ag industry is one of the top funders of the republican party. Supporting the exploitation and commodification of non-human animals is one of the best ways to just keep on supporting fascism in general, so congrats on that I guess.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sWyK389BJoI
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://m.piped.video/watch?v=sWyK389BJoI
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
still waiting on cow school and cow college and cow work i assume?
More than a third of US children do not live with both of their biological parents. If we are okay with separating human children from their parents, why should we treat cows better?
What an absolutely bizarre whataboutism, so vapid and self-evidently disingenuous that I can't believe I'm about to waste my time picking it apart, but here we go:
First of all, rescuing children from traumatically abusive environments is not the same as what the meat industry does to calves. Separation from parents is inherently traumatic itself, but that needs to be weighed against the degree of harm that the abusive parent might do, on a case-by-case basis.
Secondly, there are certainly cases of the government separating children from their parents that should be protested. Like when Texas defines transgender-affirming households to be committing child abuse and uses that as a reason to forcibly separate the child. Or when immigration control separates migrant children from their parents.
This might come as a shock to you, but it's possible to care about and advocate for more than one issue at a time. I don't know if your emotional capacity might be limited to just caring about one thing, but most people don't suffer from that limitation.
What a braindead argument. Sometimes bad things happen to human children so we can excuse animal cruelty on an industrial scale.
And it's not just the separation, 99% of male calves are killed immediately after being born, while females are either filled with hormones so they can be grown for meat, or they are raped year after year so they keep producing milk.
For some sources to back that up
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/29/science/dairy-farming-cows-milk.html
that's not true.
Not living with biological parents is different than being seperated, living alone in small veal cages, and ultimately being killed as a child for veal as happens for male calves
We also do not intentionally seperate all child from their parents regardless of circumstances. Maybe a tiny amount from child protective services for abusive parents, but it's not like the dairy industry is doing so because of abusive cow parents
vegans won't get me, pls slow animal testing.