Police def overdid it, but part of the problem might be that some people would prefer to pay the fine for speeding because it’s insignificant to them. This specific component of the legal system is broken because it treats the wealthy exactly the same as everyone else.
Fines need to scale based on the wealth of the perpetrator. It should be an equal punishment for breaking the law.
Also, you can just mail speeding fines to people, there's no reason to pull anyone over for that shit except to initiate a conflict.
They use the pull over as opportunity to search for more offenses
Yes, as I said, to initiate conflict.
They could have said “no problem sir, we’ll get this ticket to you right away” and then slow walked the whole process. Taking up hill’s time would have caused him more problems than anything else.
That sounds good in theory but that only hurts the middle class disproportionately. Not to mention it violates the constitution.
Maybe there's some precedent, but I can't see why equally proportionate punishment should be unconstitutional.
Proportionate to what? Net worth? Income? If you actually think it through you are not targeting the rich by doing this. You are targeting small businesses and middle class families.
You could curve the proportion to income to scale impact to something more equitable. How you decide what's equitable would be another problem to solve, but I imagine it would involve benchmarking around the middle class and poverty line. Right now fine rates are okay for the middle class, so keep the proportion similar, fine rates really fuck up poor people, and fine rates mean nothing to the upper class. So imagine you you feel would be a fair impact for a fine and scale it accordingly.
So you don't think progressive taxation is possible?
Fines are not the same as taxes. Taxes already scale with income.
Correct, they are different. But if you accept that evaluating a person's wealth happens successfully for taxation, there's no reason why the same metric can't be used for fines.
So instead of the law saying “If you speed, pay x amount of money” you want to make it a 400 page document for every city/county that details exemptions and allows for fine deductions based on specific scenarios? If you believe that will solve the issue you are incredibly naive. We can’t even get rich people to pay their taxes now, what makes you think adding a similar fine system will get them to pay their fines?
Complicating the tax law is a big part of why our tax system is so fucked.
So it sounds like you don't believe progressive taxation works. I guess that's an understandable viewpoint. But if you think complexity is the problem, I have a hard time accepting your assessment of me as naïve. People that want simple solutions to complex problems are showing the lack of sophistication that defines naïvety.
You didn’t ask if I thought it works. You asked if it could be implemented. Im also not suggesting complexity is the problem. It is part of the problem.
You're assuming the fines will be scaled up to hurt everyone as much as they hurt broke people. They should be benchmarked against somewhere in the middle class, scaled down for poorer people and up for richer.
Fines should be punishing but not devastating. At least not for speeding.
Again in theory it sounds great. However you can not realistically put something like this on paper because a good lawyer would tear it apart.
Inal but I can think of several reason and scenarios why this wouldn’t be fair. There are way too many situations that people deal with that affect their income and saying if you make X amount of money you must pay more for no reason other than you are successful is discrimination.
Many young people don’t understand this but when there are rules in place, they need to apply equally to everyone, even the ultra wealthy. The fact that they aren’t isn’t a problem with the law, it is a problem with our police and public officials. Take it up with them instead of fixing something that isn’t broken. If it isn’t being done correctly now, what makes you think putting higher fines on rich people is gonna fix it?
"Being rich" isn't a protected class. That's not discrimination lol lol. We already structure taxes like this lawfully.
Taxes are not the same as fines. I swear some some democrats have such a hard on for “eat the rich” you will give up your own rights to fuck with some one else.
You can’t target one group of people and expect no repercussions. Here is a relevant quote:
“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.” —Martin Niemöller
It’s easy to point at another group of people and say they are the problem. Why don’t you look in the mirror and ask yourself what are you doing to fix the problem
I'm not a Democrat.
Taxes provide a legal precedent for what you claim is "unconstitutional" regarding scaling fines.
This is honestly stupid. The capitalists are the problem in capitalism because it affords them too much power.
That poem you quoted is about Nazis, the oppressors. The poem doesn't go "they killed everyone and it is morally wrong for me to kill them back." Lol. You'll notice the Nazis aren't included in the poem? It's Jews, sure, but not Nazis? Why do you think that, oh brilliant one?
Not to mention it violates the constitution
Almost as if relying entirely on an aged document written by the rich to set laws for the modern rich doesn't work 🤔
Say what you want about it but that price of paper is the o my reason you aren’t British.
No, it isn't. The Articles of Confederation are what we had first before deciding it had too many flaws and ditching it for the new constitution in 1789. (Note: this is 6 years after the Revolutionary War ended, and 14 years after it started.)
There's no reason we can't or shouldn't do the same again now. The original writers clearly weren't shy about pointing out the flaws, and anyone else defending the current constitution as if it shouldn't be torn to shreds is not following what the founders wanted for us.
Over here speeding gets a fine and points on your license which when you hit the magic number you get your license revoked....
Those points can almost always be negotiated down.
I have spent a couple years badmouthing this dude, but the police bodycam footage is pretty crazy. It's also crazy to me that a bunch of Miami cops would pull over one of the city's most well-known athletes and nobody was like "gee, maybe we shouldn't go so hard on this one, he's famous"
Thought process might well have been: "This is an uppity black man, we'd better show these types a lesson."
Nothing makes a a cop more upset than seeing a black man doing better than him. A LOT of poorer white ppl seeing any brown person doing better than them is upsetting. You only got in your position because your a diversity hire or Affirmative Action!
No normal citizen would roll up their window on the police. Give me a fucking break.
Playing devil's advocate. He may just not have wanted some paparazzi taking a picture of him while being pulled over? You could see in the video where the cop decides he's going on a power trip instead of just doing his job
Ok, and maybe the cop thinks he is trying to load a gun with the window up. Lots of what ifs.
Ok. So they force his door open. Great.
Oh wait, it didn’t end there?
With what evidence? Cops don't get to assume.
After they dragged him out he appeared to be on the phone to someone to make them aware of the situation. With the amount of police brutality and racism in America I don't blame that reaction. Their actions here only justify it, too.
Its probably hot there. Why must he keep his window down except to assert arbitrary control?
so you are saying they should treat him differently because he is famous?
Cops should be aware that if they fuck around with a famous person, they will definitely find out how it feels to face serious charges.
I wish it was the same for us poor people, but it's not.
Exactly. I’m not saying the cops should do it, but you’d think they’d take a moment to pause before harassing literally one of the most famous men in their city. If that doesn’t make them reconsider their actions, just imagine what it’s like for everyone else. Tyreek Hill even made a comment about it in a post-game press conference, where he wondered what would’ve happened to someone else.
No, the person is saying the cops should have been smarter. They didn't say, "the cops SHOULD HAVE done X." They said, "it's crazy that the cops DID do X."
Excessive use of force by the cop who clearly wanted to escalate. Tyreek Hill also wasn't being smart in the way that was handled. We already know how paranoid and trigger happy law enforcement can be. People like to act tough on the internet, but I wouldn't DARE roll up tinted windows during a police stop knowing how shit could escalate. I'm trying to have them see my hands at all times. That's exactly the kind of shit that can happen when you're just trying to get home safe. Whatever it is, it's not worth it.
Tyreek Hill also wasn't being smart in the way that was handled.
Why is it that we have to cater to the ppl in the wrong? Give him his ticket and go. Plus there was already another officer before captain tiny dick showed up who confirmed he had no weapons in the car and according Hill keep the entire situation calm. Fuck him. You want respect you have to give respect
Asshole cop vs asshole citizen is what the video showed. I'm far from a cop lover but I can see how it feels on the other side of a rolled up window where you can't see what's going on and the person inside's being non-compliant. Don’t fuck around and talk shit while rolling up your tinted window when a cop pulls you over. People in this country are strapped up. Especially in a concealed carry state like Florida that is full of insane people. Cops are on edge for a reason when they’re doing a traffic stop. If I did what Tyreek Hill did, I'd fully expect to be asked to step out or pulled out of my car
There have been 18 year olds in active warzones that practice more restraint. If you're that scared of being shot than don't be a fucking cop. Like I said there was another cop before that asshole showed up who keeps the entire situation calm for everyone. Hill only started acting like an asshole when the cop started behaving like an asshole.
the job of being a cop in the united States actively filters for cowards and power hungry losers. Holding undue power over others is literally the only attractive aspect of the job, so of course it will attract nothing but the worst type of people
If they are so scared of every interaction, maybe being a cop is the wrong profession for them. It's real easy to not treat civilians like shit.
But the guy breaking the law was in the wrong? Yes he's going to get a ticket but he rudely rolls up the tinted window while the cop is still talking. Hill was clearly disrespectful first and antagonistic throughout.
DiSrEsPeCtFuL
Not a crime tho? Yeah.
Video shows that two motorcycle officers went after Hill after he appeared to speed past them at in his McLaren sports car on the roadway entering Hard Rock Stadium in light traffic — they later said they clocked him at 60 mph (97 kph). They turned on their lights and pulled Hill over. One knocked on the driver’s window and told him to put it down, which Hill did and handed him his driver’s license.
I am a huge police accountability buff. But also, law matters, and court rulings matter. If police order you out of your car for their safety (in the US), you have to comply. If you do not, they are authorized to use force to pull you out and almost never do that gently. Cops absolutely use excessive force all the time, so not doing things that specifically give them permission would be smart. Him rolling up his tinted windows and refusing to get out of the car are what made this happen.
They still need probably cause to force him out. They might have had it based on prior facts, but they might not have.
Cops are way past getting the benefit of the doubt from me
This looks like they were angry about an uppity black man.
This. They cannot tell you to get out for speeding or some other minor offense. They need probable cause for that. Then while he was in handcuffs, one of these clowns punched him in the face.
We need to end qualified immunity and start jailing these authoritarian tyrants.
This is wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. They can order you out of a car for nearly any reason. Safety being a primary stated purpose that has MASSIVE LEAWAY.
I can post these all day long. They’re everywhere. There is no excuse for people spreading this misinformation.
However, all other instances outside of those enumerated above appear to be unlawful reasons for ordering a passenger out of the car. For example, if the stop is concluded and the cop wants to talk to you about an unrelated matter. This would be an unlawful seizure. The Mimms case made it clear that while an officer may order an individual out of the car for legitimate safety concerns, the officer is not entitled to ask a driver out of the vehicle in every single instance in which he wants to speak with the occupants. See Pennsylvania v. Mimms, 434 U.S. 106 (1977).
That's literally you're own link. Pulling a driver over on the highway and asking them to step out and move to the shoulder grass is fine. Asking them to exit the car, on a side street is not a safety issue.
If they can't see in your vehicle, they can tell you to exit the vehicle. If you give off a hostile vibe they can tell you to exit the vehicle. Having overly dark tint creates a scenario where they cannot see what is going on inside the vehicle. I have seen cops pull out their guns and shout at people to get out of the car from 20 ft away because they couldn't see inside. I'm not saying that's the right response, I'm just saying that there are more court-accepted reasons that an officer can pull you out of your vehicle "for their safety".
LEAWAY LEEWAY
Maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, but maybe for a simple speeding offense they didn't need to drag him out of the car? Just because they are allowed to based on past court cases doesn't mean they should use that for every issue they see.
There are a lot of people who want to end qualified immunity and reform many realities of policing today. I am describing the reality today. There's a reason I say I'm interested in police accountability/transparency.
The time between them ordering him out of the car (not asking to roll down the window) and them forcing him out was a few seconds.
The one I saw was longer, they knocked at least two different times and he kept telling them off.
But they didn't tell him to get out of the car yet. He should have rolled down the window yes, but that's a separate issue than Penn vs Mimms.
Sure, but once they establish a pattern of non-compliance it doesn't reset with each new instruction. They expect he will resist getting out of the car based on his refusal to roll down the window. At that point they have to choose whether to get him out of the car quickly, or risk non-compliance issue with that, which could involve fleeing or hitting people with his car.
When officer or public safety are at risk they will always choose to take someone into custody to stabilize the situation and then reassess from there.
The situation with the window can't be separated from the treatment with the door.
That is a policy of escalation, there is no reason to follow it. It just makes situations where this is more likely. It's a miniscule increase in safety for an officer at a cost of massive risk to the public.
That's just naive. And that's a big claim, a "massive risk" to the public, so back it up... Who got hurt in this instance?
The three people cops killed today, the at least double that of dogs, and had Hill nor been an nfl player on game day he would probably still be in jail.
So In this specific instance, the specific instance we are talking about, the instance that is the topic of this discussion, no one.
The obvious follow up question is, if he were rolling up the tinted windows so he could retrieve a weapon without the cop seeing, or if he had taken off at high speed in his little sports car and run a high speed chase before crashing, could multiple people have died?
I'll just give you the obvious answer, "yes".
The reason your answer is naive isn't because cops don't do terrible things, they do, and they should absolutely be held accountable. It is because cops are also often on unpredictable situations and if you can't look at something like this and see where pulling him out of the car could be justified, you can't argue in good faith where the line is between this and a true abuse of power.
And if you can't do that, the people in power will never take your argument seriously, and your will continue to be largely ignored.
Police don't get to act on every imaginable what-if, they must act reasonably based on the specifics of the case in front of them. Watch the video again and pay attention to the time in the body cams.
The officer knocks on the window and the driver rolls it down and hands him his paperwork while complaining about the knocking. As the officer goes to walk away the driver rolls the window back up. The officer tells him to roll it back down, the driver opens it some. The officer tells him not to roll it up again or he would be taken out of the car. Within 7 seconds the officer changed his mind, ordered him out, and then dragged him out.
Important notes here. 1) not rolling the window all the way down or rolling it back up while the officer walks away are not illegal acts. There is no case law saying you must roll it all the way down and leave it down. 2) while it's down the officer could see inside and did not note any obvious safety concerns. 3) he wanted the window down while he was walking away and couldn't see inside anyway. 4) the driver never refused exiting the car and was not given a reasonable amount of time to comply. He said something like "just a moment" when asked once and was dragged out within 7 seconds. 5) the officers don't later say that they had a safety concern, they say "when we tell you to do something you have to do it" in reference to the window, which again is not an order backed up by case law unlike the order to exit which again was not refused and not given reasonable time for the driver to comply.
You could always imagine a what-if that lets the cops off, but that's not the way the courts do or the public should view these cases. The primary officer was unreasonable at almost every point. Later in the video he points to a 25ft law that isn't in effect yet and then says that he has suddenly changed it to 50ft. He was on a power trip because the driver didn't immediately show him proper deference.
That's a lot of words to admit you have trouble finding common ground so that people can make meaningful change.
Oh definitely, and the way we get that change is by instinctively supporting the officer's decisions because of a thousand imagined what-ifs. Of course that officer had to shoot Sonya Massey because she might have thrown the water at them while cowering with her hands up. She might have had a wmd under her night dress! /s
The clip I saw at the link looked like it was edited right there, I'd love to see the raw video. It could have been too quick, it could have been longer. I don't know.
As a white woman who's gotten tickets - I only open my window 2-3 inches to hand my documents through. It's all I am obligated to do so we can communicate and I can provide documentation. Considering the amount of rape and murder the police conduct, I think this is reasonable. Idk why this man has to have his window down too. I've rolled mine up during traffic stops when it was very cold or very hot, as Florida probably is right now. It's a huge abuse of power and completely unnecessary to attack a citizen for rolling up a window. No one should defend this. It's fascism. There's no crime for rolling up windows.
I expected to come here and see the police way out of line. Instead they are a little bit, but Hill was disrespectful and non-compliant.
...Hill was disrespectful and non-compliant.
When the police came round, repeatedly, to my childhood house, after being called by my mother because my father was raping and beating her, the police laughed.
Maybe the police, as a collective, will deserve respect in some hypothetical future where they don't often harm the innocent, and don't often make the world worse.
Good way to justify police violence.
Sorry, did you say something rude? That’s a paddlin slam down on the pavement
"A black person annoyed them. Of course a cop can't put up with that!"
Where do you live that cops deserve respect? Nobody DESERVES respect, least of all due to their shitty job. If you want respect you earn it, and cops have been doing the opposite (in north america) since their inception.
So you think it is ok to answer a disrespectful rolling up of a window with physical violence?
I'd hate to be in any way related to you.
We say ACAB for a reason.
So because ACAB this Hill guy can’t be one. This isn’t zero sum.
Police def overdid it, but part of the problem might be that some people would prefer to pay the fine for speeding because it’s insignificant to them. This specific component of the legal system is broken because it treats the wealthy exactly the same as everyone else.
Fines need to scale based on the wealth of the perpetrator. It should be an equal punishment for breaking the law.
Also, you can just mail speeding fines to people, there's no reason to pull anyone over for that shit except to initiate a conflict.
They use the pull over as opportunity to search for more offenses
Yes, as I said, to initiate conflict.
They could have said “no problem sir, we’ll get this ticket to you right away” and then slow walked the whole process. Taking up hill’s time would have caused him more problems than anything else.
That sounds good in theory but that only hurts the middle class disproportionately. Not to mention it violates the constitution.
Maybe there's some precedent, but I can't see why equally proportionate punishment should be unconstitutional.
Proportionate to what? Net worth? Income? If you actually think it through you are not targeting the rich by doing this. You are targeting small businesses and middle class families.
You could curve the proportion to income to scale impact to something more equitable. How you decide what's equitable would be another problem to solve, but I imagine it would involve benchmarking around the middle class and poverty line. Right now fine rates are okay for the middle class, so keep the proportion similar, fine rates really fuck up poor people, and fine rates mean nothing to the upper class. So imagine you you feel would be a fair impact for a fine and scale it accordingly.
So you don't think progressive taxation is possible?
Fines are not the same as taxes. Taxes already scale with income.
Correct, they are different. But if you accept that evaluating a person's wealth happens successfully for taxation, there's no reason why the same metric can't be used for fines.
So instead of the law saying “If you speed, pay x amount of money” you want to make it a 400 page document for every city/county that details exemptions and allows for fine deductions based on specific scenarios? If you believe that will solve the issue you are incredibly naive. We can’t even get rich people to pay their taxes now, what makes you think adding a similar fine system will get them to pay their fines?
Complicating the tax law is a big part of why our tax system is so fucked.
So it sounds like you don't believe progressive taxation works. I guess that's an understandable viewpoint. But if you think complexity is the problem, I have a hard time accepting your assessment of me as naïve. People that want simple solutions to complex problems are showing the lack of sophistication that defines naïvety.
You didn’t ask if I thought it works. You asked if it could be implemented. Im also not suggesting complexity is the problem. It is part of the problem.
You're assuming the fines will be scaled up to hurt everyone as much as they hurt broke people. They should be benchmarked against somewhere in the middle class, scaled down for poorer people and up for richer.
Fines should be punishing but not devastating. At least not for speeding.
Again in theory it sounds great. However you can not realistically put something like this on paper because a good lawyer would tear it apart.
Inal but I can think of several reason and scenarios why this wouldn’t be fair. There are way too many situations that people deal with that affect their income and saying if you make X amount of money you must pay more for no reason other than you are successful is discrimination.
Many young people don’t understand this but when there are rules in place, they need to apply equally to everyone, even the ultra wealthy. The fact that they aren’t isn’t a problem with the law, it is a problem with our police and public officials. Take it up with them instead of fixing something that isn’t broken. If it isn’t being done correctly now, what makes you think putting higher fines on rich people is gonna fix it?
"Being rich" isn't a protected class. That's not discrimination lol lol. We already structure taxes like this lawfully.
Taxes are not the same as fines. I swear some some democrats have such a hard on for “eat the rich” you will give up your own rights to fuck with some one else.
You can’t target one group of people and expect no repercussions. Here is a relevant quote:
“First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.” —Martin Niemöller
It’s easy to point at another group of people and say they are the problem. Why don’t you look in the mirror and ask yourself what are you doing to fix the problem
I'm not a Democrat.
Taxes provide a legal precedent for what you claim is "unconstitutional" regarding scaling fines.
This is honestly stupid. The capitalists are the problem in capitalism because it affords them too much power.
That poem you quoted is about Nazis, the oppressors. The poem doesn't go "they killed everyone and it is morally wrong for me to kill them back." Lol. You'll notice the Nazis aren't included in the poem? It's Jews, sure, but not Nazis? Why do you think that, oh brilliant one?
Almost as if relying entirely on an aged document written by the rich to set laws for the modern rich doesn't work 🤔
Say what you want about it but that price of paper is the o my reason you aren’t British.
No, it isn't. The Articles of Confederation are what we had first before deciding it had too many flaws and ditching it for the new constitution in 1789. (Note: this is 6 years after the Revolutionary War ended, and 14 years after it started.)
There's no reason we can't or shouldn't do the same again now. The original writers clearly weren't shy about pointing out the flaws, and anyone else defending the current constitution as if it shouldn't be torn to shreds is not following what the founders wanted for us.
Over here speeding gets a fine and points on your license which when you hit the magic number you get your license revoked....
Those points can almost always be negotiated down.
I have spent a couple years badmouthing this dude, but the police bodycam footage is pretty crazy. It's also crazy to me that a bunch of Miami cops would pull over one of the city's most well-known athletes and nobody was like "gee, maybe we shouldn't go so hard on this one, he's famous"
Thought process might well have been: "This is an uppity black man, we'd better show these types a lesson."
Nothing makes a a cop more upset than seeing a black man doing better than him. A LOT of poorer white ppl seeing any brown person doing better than them is upsetting. You only got in your position because your a diversity hire or Affirmative Action!
No normal citizen would roll up their window on the police. Give me a fucking break.
Playing devil's advocate. He may just not have wanted some paparazzi taking a picture of him while being pulled over? You could see in the video where the cop decides he's going on a power trip instead of just doing his job
Ok, and maybe the cop thinks he is trying to load a gun with the window up. Lots of what ifs.
Ok. So they force his door open. Great.
Oh wait, it didn’t end there?
With what evidence? Cops don't get to assume.
After they dragged him out he appeared to be on the phone to someone to make them aware of the situation. With the amount of police brutality and racism in America I don't blame that reaction. Their actions here only justify it, too.
Its probably hot there. Why must he keep his window down except to assert arbitrary control?
so you are saying they should treat him differently because he is famous?
Cops should be aware that if they fuck around with a famous person, they will definitely find out how it feels to face serious charges.
I wish it was the same for us poor people, but it's not.
Exactly. I’m not saying the cops should do it, but you’d think they’d take a moment to pause before harassing literally one of the most famous men in their city. If that doesn’t make them reconsider their actions, just imagine what it’s like for everyone else. Tyreek Hill even made a comment about it in a post-game press conference, where he wondered what would’ve happened to someone else.
No, the person is saying the cops should have been smarter. They didn't say, "the cops SHOULD HAVE done X." They said, "it's crazy that the cops DID do X."
Excessive use of force by the cop who clearly wanted to escalate. Tyreek Hill also wasn't being smart in the way that was handled. We already know how paranoid and trigger happy law enforcement can be. People like to act tough on the internet, but I wouldn't DARE roll up tinted windows during a police stop knowing how shit could escalate. I'm trying to have them see my hands at all times. That's exactly the kind of shit that can happen when you're just trying to get home safe. Whatever it is, it's not worth it.
Why is it that we have to cater to the ppl in the wrong? Give him his ticket and go. Plus there was already another officer before captain tiny dick showed up who confirmed he had no weapons in the car and according Hill keep the entire situation calm. Fuck him. You want respect you have to give respect
Asshole cop vs asshole citizen is what the video showed. I'm far from a cop lover but I can see how it feels on the other side of a rolled up window where you can't see what's going on and the person inside's being non-compliant. Don’t fuck around and talk shit while rolling up your tinted window when a cop pulls you over. People in this country are strapped up. Especially in a concealed carry state like Florida that is full of insane people. Cops are on edge for a reason when they’re doing a traffic stop. If I did what Tyreek Hill did, I'd fully expect to be asked to step out or pulled out of my car
There have been 18 year olds in active warzones that practice more restraint. If you're that scared of being shot than don't be a fucking cop. Like I said there was another cop before that asshole showed up who keeps the entire situation calm for everyone. Hill only started acting like an asshole when the cop started behaving like an asshole.
the job of being a cop in the united States actively filters for cowards and power hungry losers. Holding undue power over others is literally the only attractive aspect of the job, so of course it will attract nothing but the worst type of people
If they are so scared of every interaction, maybe being a cop is the wrong profession for them. It's real easy to not treat civilians like shit.
But the guy breaking the law was in the wrong? Yes he's going to get a ticket but he rudely rolls up the tinted window while the cop is still talking. Hill was clearly disrespectful first and antagonistic throughout.
DiSrEsPeCtFuL
Not a crime tho? Yeah.
I am a huge police accountability buff. But also, law matters, and court rulings matter. If police order you out of your car for their safety (in the US), you have to comply. If you do not, they are authorized to use force to pull you out and almost never do that gently. Cops absolutely use excessive force all the time, so not doing things that specifically give them permission would be smart. Him rolling up his tinted windows and refusing to get out of the car are what made this happen.
They still need probably cause to force him out. They might have had it based on prior facts, but they might not have.
Cops are way past getting the benefit of the doubt from me
This looks like they were angry about an uppity black man.
This. They cannot tell you to get out for speeding or some other minor offense. They need probable cause for that. Then while he was in handcuffs, one of these clowns punched him in the face.
We need to end qualified immunity and start jailing these authoritarian tyrants.
This is wrong. Stop spreading misinformation. They can order you out of a car for nearly any reason. Safety being a primary stated purpose that has MASSIVE LEAWAY.
https://www.smithandeulo.com/can-police-order-passenger-out-of-car/?amp
https://defenseadvocates.com/can-police-make-you-get-out-of-your-car/
I can post these all day long. They’re everywhere. There is no excuse for people spreading this misinformation.
That's literally you're own link. Pulling a driver over on the highway and asking them to step out and move to the shoulder grass is fine. Asking them to exit the car, on a side street is not a safety issue.
If they can't see in your vehicle, they can tell you to exit the vehicle. If you give off a hostile vibe they can tell you to exit the vehicle. Having overly dark tint creates a scenario where they cannot see what is going on inside the vehicle. I have seen cops pull out their guns and shout at people to get out of the car from 20 ft away because they couldn't see inside. I'm not saying that's the right response, I'm just saying that there are more court-accepted reasons that an officer can pull you out of your vehicle "for their safety".
LEAWAYLEEWAYMaybe, and I'm just spitballing here, but maybe for a simple speeding offense they didn't need to drag him out of the car? Just because they are allowed to based on past court cases doesn't mean they should use that for every issue they see.
There are a lot of people who want to end qualified immunity and reform many realities of policing today. I am describing the reality today. There's a reason I say I'm interested in police accountability/transparency.
The time between them ordering him out of the car (not asking to roll down the window) and them forcing him out was a few seconds.
The one I saw was longer, they knocked at least two different times and he kept telling them off.
But they didn't tell him to get out of the car yet. He should have rolled down the window yes, but that's a separate issue than Penn vs Mimms.
Sure, but once they establish a pattern of non-compliance it doesn't reset with each new instruction. They expect he will resist getting out of the car based on his refusal to roll down the window. At that point they have to choose whether to get him out of the car quickly, or risk non-compliance issue with that, which could involve fleeing or hitting people with his car.
When officer or public safety are at risk they will always choose to take someone into custody to stabilize the situation and then reassess from there.
The situation with the window can't be separated from the treatment with the door.
That is a policy of escalation, there is no reason to follow it. It just makes situations where this is more likely. It's a miniscule increase in safety for an officer at a cost of massive risk to the public.
That's just naive. And that's a big claim, a "massive risk" to the public, so back it up... Who got hurt in this instance?
The three people cops killed today, the at least double that of dogs, and had Hill nor been an nfl player on game day he would probably still be in jail.
So In this specific instance, the specific instance we are talking about, the instance that is the topic of this discussion, no one.
The obvious follow up question is, if he were rolling up the tinted windows so he could retrieve a weapon without the cop seeing, or if he had taken off at high speed in his little sports car and run a high speed chase before crashing, could multiple people have died?
I'll just give you the obvious answer, "yes".
The reason your answer is naive isn't because cops don't do terrible things, they do, and they should absolutely be held accountable. It is because cops are also often on unpredictable situations and if you can't look at something like this and see where pulling him out of the car could be justified, you can't argue in good faith where the line is between this and a true abuse of power.
And if you can't do that, the people in power will never take your argument seriously, and your will continue to be largely ignored.
Police don't get to act on every imaginable what-if, they must act reasonably based on the specifics of the case in front of them. Watch the video again and pay attention to the time in the body cams.
The officer knocks on the window and the driver rolls it down and hands him his paperwork while complaining about the knocking. As the officer goes to walk away the driver rolls the window back up. The officer tells him to roll it back down, the driver opens it some. The officer tells him not to roll it up again or he would be taken out of the car. Within 7 seconds the officer changed his mind, ordered him out, and then dragged him out.
Important notes here. 1) not rolling the window all the way down or rolling it back up while the officer walks away are not illegal acts. There is no case law saying you must roll it all the way down and leave it down. 2) while it's down the officer could see inside and did not note any obvious safety concerns. 3) he wanted the window down while he was walking away and couldn't see inside anyway. 4) the driver never refused exiting the car and was not given a reasonable amount of time to comply. He said something like "just a moment" when asked once and was dragged out within 7 seconds. 5) the officers don't later say that they had a safety concern, they say "when we tell you to do something you have to do it" in reference to the window, which again is not an order backed up by case law unlike the order to exit which again was not refused and not given reasonable time for the driver to comply.
You could always imagine a what-if that lets the cops off, but that's not the way the courts do or the public should view these cases. The primary officer was unreasonable at almost every point. Later in the video he points to a 25ft law that isn't in effect yet and then says that he has suddenly changed it to 50ft. He was on a power trip because the driver didn't immediately show him proper deference.
That's a lot of words to admit you have trouble finding common ground so that people can make meaningful change.
Oh definitely, and the way we get that change is by instinctively supporting the officer's decisions because of a thousand imagined what-ifs. Of course that officer had to shoot Sonya Massey because she might have thrown the water at them while cowering with her hands up. She might have had a wmd under her night dress! /s
The clip I saw at the link looked like it was edited right there, I'd love to see the raw video. It could have been too quick, it could have been longer. I don't know.
https://youtu.be/pLKRKwmAtt8?si=8fKYm6U1IpW2MBiv
Thanks. Yeah they didn't even think about de-escalation.
Nice to finally see someone who knows Penn v. Mimms out in the wild.
Everyone here gobblin up this rich domestic abusers BS just because the other party is a cop 🙄
Keeping your heavily tinted window rolled down during a traffic stop is not an unreasonable request. Dude's driving a $300k car and acting like an asshole to someone just doing their job. gimme a break. There are actual instances of racist police overreach that we aren't paying enough attention to. This isn't one of them.
As a white woman who's gotten tickets - I only open my window 2-3 inches to hand my documents through. It's all I am obligated to do so we can communicate and I can provide documentation. Considering the amount of rape and murder the police conduct, I think this is reasonable. Idk why this man has to have his window down too. I've rolled mine up during traffic stops when it was very cold or very hot, as Florida probably is right now. It's a huge abuse of power and completely unnecessary to attack a citizen for rolling up a window. No one should defend this. It's fascism. There's no crime for rolling up windows.
I expected to come here and see the police way out of line. Instead they are a little bit, but Hill was disrespectful and non-compliant.
When the police came round, repeatedly, to my childhood house, after being called by my mother because my father was raping and beating her, the police laughed.
Maybe the police, as a collective, will deserve respect in some hypothetical future where they don't often harm the innocent, and don't often make the world worse.
Good way to justify police violence.
Sorry, did you say something rude? That’s a
paddlinslam down on the pavement"A black person annoyed them. Of course a cop can't put up with that!"
Where do you live that cops deserve respect? Nobody DESERVES respect, least of all due to their shitty job. If you want respect you earn it, and cops have been doing the opposite (in north america) since their inception.
So you think it is ok to answer a disrespectful rolling up of a window with physical violence?
I'd hate to be in any way related to you.
We say ACAB for a reason.
So because ACAB this Hill guy can’t be one. This isn’t zero sum.