So when Israel was given it's land via the Balfour treaty both sides were happy for a while. Yea some were pissed off but didn't act out.
Then when Israel got settled and comfy they decided to try to grab the rest of "their" land even though this broke the treaty.
Since then the land grab has gotten blatant and they've created their own laws to justify it, to the point that even me saying this is seen as antisemitism even though it is totally truthful.
Well done Israel, what did you think would happen.
The ICC still want a word too!
Apartheid is still alive.
Yeah. Israel became a state because the white nations agreed while the brown nations didn't.
So we all know who got their way.
The only people who should be surprised are those who thoughts this conflict would end there.
Victim blaming...
The victims are the Palestinians.
I believe the Israeli civilians being killed and held hostage would also qualify as victims here.
Yeah, we should separate the citizens from the government. Unless there really is overwhelming support from the citizens for the actions of the government. I don’t know about that situation over there.
That way, you can blame the Israeli government for the deaths of the citizen, singular?
Exactly. The victims are the Palestinian people and Israeli people who can't stop those in charge from doing what they are doing. The vast majortiy of victims that disproportionately suffer more are Palestinians, a clear consequence of continued Israeli aggression and occupation, police-protected settler violence, and relentless land-grabbig. Israel put itself, it's citizens, and all the Palestinians under the bus by committing apartheid.
Yeah to an extent but the population support and enable their apartheid state, land grabbing and murderous policies. These are the consequences. I don't want to see anyone dead but this isn't a surprise and I stand with Palestine.
Oh yea right sorry for giving you the obvious blatant truth!
This is a tragedy, but similar to the invasion of Ukraine with Isreal being Russia.
Wow, no one is going to mention what Israel is doing to these people? I don't agree with terrorists, but the replies should be more nuanced than 'bad Palestines'.
In my eyes, as an outsider following the news, Israel has pushed Palestinians to the brink by killing Palestine civilians, seizing more of their land AGAIN and having a dictator for a president that just changed the constitution..
If you take people's land, your military kills children, films and laughs about it, push them into poverty, and then come for their homes... Sometimes this is the only way to say 'enough'.
I think the tragedy is that this goes both ways: if a group of people that just escaped a genocide, gets attacked by all its neighboring countries as soon as they have a state of their own, are explicitly threatened with extinction and are attacked over and over again by military actions and terrorist attacks... sometimes people will try to assert absolute dominance in order to try to ensure their own physical safety above everything else.
Note: I am very much not justifying any of the above. I just think that it's not very surprising that people act this way, and that Hamas & Co of course know this - just as the Israeli government & Co know how people react to their actions. In my opinion neither the Israeli government (and orthodox settlers etc.) nor the Hamas (and similar groups) are honestly trying to unfuck the situation.
Rational take.
I wish more people could look at this like you. The violence currently ongoing in Israel is unconscionable -- no treatment can justify attacking civilians. It's just as unconscionable as Israel bombing civilians in Palestine.
Neither action is productive even in a war context. Killing civilians doesn't get you closer to your goal. It just makes your enemy even angrier and gives them righteous justification for their actions. But even that doesn't justify them killing your civilians.
Hamas and Israel's conservative government are content to keep killing innocent people -- to what end? How do they not see that it's completely unproductive to their own goals?
Come live in israel and see how is it for us. And I'm saying this as a left wing pro human rights anti settlement opposer of the current fascist government
Come live in Gaza?
Exactly lmao
I'm glad you oppose you fascist government. Sadly, like it is here in America, a lot of the citizens support the fascism. If you see interviews with Israelis, they often talk like Palestinians aren't even human. It's so saddening.
I think he's saying that it's like Israel is the invader, similar to Russia.
There appears to be some confusion. Before anyone decides to post a viewpoint based upon a timeslot of their choosing, please search for yourselves when Israel was created and its boundaries. Then track the boundaries every 10 years and see where they are today. Then ask yourselves what you would do if you were pressed so far.
Hamas's missiles directed towards Israeli civilians and you choose to compare Israel to Russia.
Your propoganda is showing...
Do you consider Hamas the aggressor in the overall context of the Israel- Palestinian conflict?
Not being the aggressor does not give you a licence to murder civilians.
Is it amoral? Yes, for sure 100%. But as a global community, we barely punish those who engage in this kind of tactic, and when we do, it's for some kind of political theater. More Palestinian civilians will die in this conflict by a factor, if you're going to criticize Hamas for this, I'd like to see the same standard applied to IDF.
I'm not saying either side is innocent, but you cannot compare this to the invasion of Ukraine since Ukraine does not deliberately target Russian civilians.
Wow. I apologize for the confusion. I absolutely do not believe these two situations are comparable. My bad.
Do you think only one side can be responsible in a conflict?
Sometimes yes. I know very little about the Israelo-palestinian confilct (only what I read from news outlet) so I can't say anything for sure here.
But more generally, in history, there have been plenty of conflicts that were one side's responsability: Ukraine's invasion, WW2, colonie's independance "wars"... IMO, when you defend yourself from an agression, you are not responsible for the conflict.
In this case, I tend to agree with other commentors - Israel seems to have been increasingly oppressive and brutal at least in the past 2 decades, and you can only push people so far before they react.
How they react matters though. If Palestinians brutally murdered Israeli children, I think we'd all agree there's absolutely no justification for that, no matter what rings wrongs Israel has committed.
Palestine has every right to fight back against Israel, but not the civilians. When a country kills your civilians, you solve absolutely nothing by retaliation killing their civilians. Your enemy is their military and government.
I firmly believe it is impossible to push someone to a point where their attacking innocent people can be justified.
Sometimes yes.
No one is denying that.
Israel has left Gaza in 2005 and only received missiles and terrorist attacks in return.
Although no side is mother Teresa in this conflict, one is is definitely less mother Teresa than the other.
Israel continues to expand their occupation of Palestinian land, though. Do you think Palestinians in Gaza have no stake in the well-being of other Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank?
They're only bringing about their own ruin. Fuck, if they actually wanted to do something, then be human fucking beings and adults and come to solve agreement/ compromise. Israel isn't going anywhere. They only stand to lose more and more by not coming to the table but instead being violent terrorists. They can keep killing for hundreds of years. They'll end up with even less and accomplish nothing.
Colonizers are always responsible for any violence that follows.
I'm down with blaming the British
Well, that goes without saying.
So if Native Americans fired rockets on e.g. Corpus Christi, Texas, they would have no responsibility at all for this action?
I am not denying the responsibility of "the colonizers", I think other people can also have some responsibility.
They'd be justified.
The point is to not condemn the oppressed without regard for their oppression.
So just to be clear, if a Native American went up to you, told you that he was going to shoot you because your ancestors stole his land, and then murdered you, you have no qualms about this?
I'm not a colonizer.
Neither are most people living today. Their ancestors were. And as a Westerner, you're benefiting from the colonizers' actions even if you're an immigrant. By your logic, their murder of you would be justified.
You can't blame descendants for what their ancestors did, but you can ask them to share the wealth they own because of their ancestors with you.
When did the colonization of the Americas end? I must have missed it.
I'm not an immigrant. Not really sure what you're trying to say.
There's no political will to make up for past and ongoing crimes against Native Americans. In a democracy that makes the common people complicit, no?
Where in this thread did someone "condemn the oppressed without regard for their oppression"?
They're not being oppressed if they choose to live the why they do. At some point the drug addict needs to come to terms with the fact they are the ones causing their self harm. They could compromise and stop their killing/ bloodshed to build a peace but they don't. Continuously attacking is one of the most dumbass moves they keep making. I'm out of sympathy and patience for these idiots. Keep crying but do nothing. Other parts of the Arab world have moved on and made peace with Israel. The Palestinians only have excuses and children to sacrifice at this point.
He said aggressor.
And idoubledo did not say aggressor. So what do we gain by fixating on this word?
Even if Hamas is wrong (and they are wrong to attack civilians), the comparison between Russia and Israel in terms of being an occupying power is still a totally valid comparison. I think this is what your point is missing.
Good luck to the Palestinian freedom fighters! Apartheid must end!
You are cheering people that have been gunning down civilians at a bus stops. Try to take a moment to really reflect on that some time.
No, this doesn't mean I support Israel, before you ask.
I hate that people make this into a binary. I don't support either side here, I just hate the people killing civilians. And between this Hamas attack and Israel's airstrikes on civilian areas, there is no moral side to take. Bloody butchers lead both of them.
We need a Palestinian group that decries Hamas and stands against any violence to Israeli civilians, and we need an Israeli group that decries their conservative government and stands against any violence to Palestinian civilians. Until either side pledges to protect both groups of civilians, there will be no progress. Only blood.
War is hell, but few wars have ever been more justified than this one.
Let those with a death wish meet their just end! They're not freedom fighters. They're simple terrorists taking hostages, gunning people in the street, etc. They have no end game but death and destruction. They'll accomplish nothing but murder and subsequent hardship for their people. They could be thriving but they'd rather kill people indiscriminately. They have no code of conduct nor rules of engagement. If they saw a Jewish toddler or infant, they wouldn't hesitate to kill it. There is no reason to champion these losers.
So when Israel was given it's land via the Balfour treaty both sides were happy for a while. Yea some were pissed off but didn't act out.
Then when Israel got settled and comfy they decided to try to grab the rest of "their" land even though this broke the treaty.
Since then the land grab has gotten blatant and they've created their own laws to justify it, to the point that even me saying this is seen as antisemitism even though it is totally truthful.
Well done Israel, what did you think would happen.
The ICC still want a word too!
Apartheid is still alive.
Yeah. Israel became a state because the white nations agreed while the brown nations didn't.
So we all know who got their way.
The only people who should be surprised are those who thoughts this conflict would end there.
Victim blaming...
The victims are the Palestinians.
I believe the Israeli civilians being killed and held hostage would also qualify as victims here.
Yeah, we should separate the citizens from the government. Unless there really is overwhelming support from the citizens for the actions of the government. I don’t know about that situation over there.
That way, you can blame the Israeli government for the deaths of the citizen, singular?
Exactly. The victims are the Palestinian people and Israeli people who can't stop those in charge from doing what they are doing. The vast majortiy of victims that disproportionately suffer more are Palestinians, a clear consequence of continued Israeli aggression and occupation, police-protected settler violence, and relentless land-grabbig. Israel put itself, it's citizens, and all the Palestinians under the bus by committing apartheid.
Yeah to an extent but the population support and enable their apartheid state, land grabbing and murderous policies. These are the consequences. I don't want to see anyone dead but this isn't a surprise and I stand with Palestine.
Oh yea right sorry for giving you the obvious blatant truth!
This is a tragedy, but similar to the invasion of Ukraine with Isreal being Russia.
Wow, no one is going to mention what Israel is doing to these people? I don't agree with terrorists, but the replies should be more nuanced than 'bad Palestines'.
In my eyes, as an outsider following the news, Israel has pushed Palestinians to the brink by killing Palestine civilians, seizing more of their land AGAIN and having a dictator for a president that just changed the constitution..
If you take people's land, your military kills children, films and laughs about it, push them into poverty, and then come for their homes... Sometimes this is the only way to say 'enough'.
I think the tragedy is that this goes both ways: if a group of people that just escaped a genocide, gets attacked by all its neighboring countries as soon as they have a state of their own, are explicitly threatened with extinction and are attacked over and over again by military actions and terrorist attacks... sometimes people will try to assert absolute dominance in order to try to ensure their own physical safety above everything else.
Note: I am very much not justifying any of the above. I just think that it's not very surprising that people act this way, and that Hamas & Co of course know this - just as the Israeli government & Co know how people react to their actions. In my opinion neither the Israeli government (and orthodox settlers etc.) nor the Hamas (and similar groups) are honestly trying to unfuck the situation.
Rational take.
I wish more people could look at this like you. The violence currently ongoing in Israel is unconscionable -- no treatment can justify attacking civilians. It's just as unconscionable as Israel bombing civilians in Palestine.
Neither action is productive even in a war context. Killing civilians doesn't get you closer to your goal. It just makes your enemy even angrier and gives them righteous justification for their actions. But even that doesn't justify them killing your civilians.
Hamas and Israel's conservative government are content to keep killing innocent people -- to what end? How do they not see that it's completely unproductive to their own goals?
Come live in israel and see how is it for us. And I'm saying this as a left wing pro human rights anti settlement opposer of the current fascist government
Come live in Gaza?
Exactly lmao
I'm glad you oppose you fascist government. Sadly, like it is here in America, a lot of the citizens support the fascism. If you see interviews with Israelis, they often talk like Palestinians aren't even human. It's so saddening.
I think he's saying that it's like Israel is the invader, similar to Russia.
There appears to be some confusion. Before anyone decides to post a viewpoint based upon a timeslot of their choosing, please search for yourselves when Israel was created and its boundaries. Then track the boundaries every 10 years and see where they are today. Then ask yourselves what you would do if you were pressed so far.
Hamas's missiles directed towards Israeli civilians and you choose to compare Israel to Russia. Your propoganda is showing...
Do you consider Hamas the aggressor in the overall context of the Israel- Palestinian conflict?
Not being the aggressor does not give you a licence to murder civilians.
Is it amoral? Yes, for sure 100%. But as a global community, we barely punish those who engage in this kind of tactic, and when we do, it's for some kind of political theater. More Palestinian civilians will die in this conflict by a factor, if you're going to criticize Hamas for this, I'd like to see the same standard applied to IDF.
I'm not saying either side is innocent, but you cannot compare this to the invasion of Ukraine since Ukraine does not deliberately target Russian civilians.
Wow. I apologize for the confusion. I absolutely do not believe these two situations are comparable. My bad.
Do you think only one side can be responsible in a conflict?
Sometimes yes. I know very little about the Israelo-palestinian confilct (only what I read from news outlet) so I can't say anything for sure here.
But more generally, in history, there have been plenty of conflicts that were one side's responsability: Ukraine's invasion, WW2, colonie's independance "wars"... IMO, when you defend yourself from an agression, you are not responsible for the conflict.
In this case, I tend to agree with other commentors - Israel seems to have been increasingly oppressive and brutal at least in the past 2 decades, and you can only push people so far before they react.
How they react matters though. If Palestinians brutally murdered Israeli children, I think we'd all agree there's absolutely no justification for that, no matter what rings wrongs Israel has committed.
Palestine has every right to fight back against Israel, but not the civilians. When a country kills your civilians, you solve absolutely nothing by retaliation killing their civilians. Your enemy is their military and government.
I firmly believe it is impossible to push someone to a point where their attacking innocent people can be justified.
No one is denying that.
Israel has left Gaza in 2005 and only received missiles and terrorist attacks in return. Although no side is mother Teresa in this conflict, one is is definitely less mother Teresa than the other.
Israel continues to expand their occupation of Palestinian land, though. Do you think Palestinians in Gaza have no stake in the well-being of other Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank?
They're only bringing about their own ruin. Fuck, if they actually wanted to do something, then be human fucking beings and adults and come to solve agreement/ compromise. Israel isn't going anywhere. They only stand to lose more and more by not coming to the table but instead being violent terrorists. They can keep killing for hundreds of years. They'll end up with even less and accomplish nothing.
Colonizers are always responsible for any violence that follows.
I'm down with blaming the British
Well, that goes without saying.
So if Native Americans fired rockets on e.g. Corpus Christi, Texas, they would have no responsibility at all for this action?
I am not denying the responsibility of "the colonizers", I think other people can also have some responsibility.
They'd be justified.
The point is to not condemn the oppressed without regard for their oppression.
So just to be clear, if a Native American went up to you, told you that he was going to shoot you because your ancestors stole his land, and then murdered you, you have no qualms about this?
I'm not a colonizer.
Neither are most people living today. Their ancestors were. And as a Westerner, you're benefiting from the colonizers' actions even if you're an immigrant. By your logic, their murder of you would be justified.
You can't blame descendants for what their ancestors did, but you can ask them to share the wealth they own because of their ancestors with you.
When did the colonization of the Americas end? I must have missed it.
I'm not an immigrant. Not really sure what you're trying to say.
There's no political will to make up for past and ongoing crimes against Native Americans. In a democracy that makes the common people complicit, no?
Where in this thread did someone "condemn the oppressed without regard for their oppression"?
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/3820195
They're not being oppressed if they choose to live the why they do. At some point the drug addict needs to come to terms with the fact they are the ones causing their self harm. They could compromise and stop their killing/ bloodshed to build a peace but they don't. Continuously attacking is one of the most dumbass moves they keep making. I'm out of sympathy and patience for these idiots. Keep crying but do nothing. Other parts of the Arab world have moved on and made peace with Israel. The Palestinians only have excuses and children to sacrifice at this point.
He said aggressor.
And idoubledo did not say aggressor. So what do we gain by fixating on this word?
Even if Hamas is wrong (and they are wrong to attack civilians), the comparison between Russia and Israel in terms of being an occupying power is still a totally valid comparison. I think this is what your point is missing.
Palestinians are defending their home. Good luck to them.
Good luck to the Palestinian freedom fighters! Apartheid must end!
You are cheering people that have been gunning down civilians at a bus stops. Try to take a moment to really reflect on that some time.
No, this doesn't mean I support Israel, before you ask.
I hate that people make this into a binary. I don't support either side here, I just hate the people killing civilians. And between this Hamas attack and Israel's airstrikes on civilian areas, there is no moral side to take. Bloody butchers lead both of them.
We need a Palestinian group that decries Hamas and stands against any violence to Israeli civilians, and we need an Israeli group that decries their conservative government and stands against any violence to Palestinian civilians. Until either side pledges to protect both groups of civilians, there will be no progress. Only blood.
War is hell, but few wars have ever been more justified than this one.
Let those with a death wish meet their just end! They're not freedom fighters. They're simple terrorists taking hostages, gunning people in the street, etc. They have no end game but death and destruction. They'll accomplish nothing but murder and subsequent hardship for their people. They could be thriving but they'd rather kill people indiscriminately. They have no code of conduct nor rules of engagement. If they saw a Jewish toddler or infant, they wouldn't hesitate to kill it. There is no reason to champion these losers.