It's a really childish view of what voting is supposed to be. No, Biden isn't everything you want, but Trump is a DUMPSTER FIRE who will actively make your life WORSE.
So your choice is:
Vote for Biden
Don't vote, and elect Trump
Vote 3rd party and elect Trump
Vote for Trump
Ok, and? What's your plan to get people that are barely removed from actually being children to vote more? It's easy to come up with a reason why each segment of non-voters is making a dumb and self-destructive choice by not doing their patriotic duty to elect the better leader, but like, we still need them to vote. Elections are won on turning out unreliable voters.
The only real plan, unfortunately, is experience. They failed to learn the lesson from 4 years of Trump, if the country survives another 4 years maybe they'll think better next time.
"Oh, shit, I totally should have voted!"
Yeah, ya think?
The best things we can do now are too late for '24:
Push for universal vote by mail in ALL states. It eliminates the barriers to voting and increases participation.
Get ranked choice balloting in ALL states. Alaska is embarrassing the rest of us.
Just getting those two things would go a long way to permanently remove Republicans from power... which is why they won't do them voluntarily.
Those things are too late for 2048 even.
Yup. That prefrontal cortex thing. Sadly, many people way past adolescence never seem to have a fully-functioning one, either.
No, Biden isn't everything you want, but
He's everything anyone who says this wants.
I want to not have Trump set it all on fire, which means voting Biden.
The notion that all misgivings are bratty insistence on perfection is insulting to people who have serious objections.
From people who have none.
I mean, the argument is "Biden isn't good enough, so I don't give a shit if the DRASTICALLY WORSE option wins."
Of course you sound like bratty perfectionists.
And you sound like you love everything Biden does. Especially the genocide support.
No sweetheart, it's called harm reduction. You see, the other option to intensify that genocide support.
Demeaning pet names and condescension are what centrists do when they can't defend the genocide they have always wanted.
That's fucking stupid. Most of Biden's base doesn't fucking like him. Our two options both have really shitty approval ratings.
We vote against the guy we hate the most here, not for someone we like.
We vote against the guy we hate the most here, not for someone we like.
I've already said I'm voting for the pro-genocide candidate you prefer. I am not abstaining, nor voting for the other pro-genocide candidate.
I am saying that if Biden does not cease his support for genocide, he will lose. You will blame me for his loss anyway because you don't care how anyone votes, you just want performative unquestioning fealty to your guy.
Oh no, I mean. When he loses it will be because of his disgusting choices in regards to the genocide. We're on the same page.
"Hey, if that guy wins, he's going to rob everyone then set fire to their grandmother. That means we can simply do nothing and it's a shoe-in!"
"Au contraire, mon frere. That means so long as we don't set fire to people's grandmothers, not only do we get to rob everyone, but they'll thank us for doing it, and we will own them."
Yeah no. We'll take the L just to see you get robbed too, and the smoke from your burning grandmothers will be as incense in our nostrils.
If the motherfucker thinks people will give him a pass on genocide as tribute for saving the country from trump, he's going to get a brutal fucking lesson in petty spite.
Biden is NOT the one committing genocide. Save that ire for Bibi where it belongs.
Biden is sending bibi new weapons daily
And Bibi is the one choosing to use them.
"I didn't kill anyone, I just gave the homicidal maniac a better gun. And then after he had already killed a lot of people, I went above and beyond to get him more ammo."
How do you feel about moral responsibility for people who fund terrorists? No harm, no foul as long as they're not personally planting bombs?
When Trump doubles the US's support for Israel I hope you get a good view from up on your high horse.
Biden is selling weapons that he knows will be used to commit genocide.
He should stop. Yes, Trump is worse. Yes, I'm voting for Biden. No one should be supporting genocide.
Your options are
Genocide
Genocide, but more of it
Lol I don't care.
Do you wanna protest? Riot? Something more drastic? You can vote and do that, so long as you avoid a felony conviction.
Why is the answer never "Biden has to do something bold and public to earn the votes of the unexcited, rather than leaning on I'm-not-Trump?"
The student loan thing night have worked if the courts didn't shoot it full of holes. Why is he not promising to pack the courts to force it through? Stonewall any legislation that limps through the knife-edge House until they codify Roe? Go for the fucking jugular on something!
Showing some real backbone to Bibi might help, but we can't possibly have that.
I keep expecting they'll reschedule marijuana for the desperate hail mary. You'd think it was perfect for him because in many ways it wouldn't really change the status quo of state-level legalization, but shows he's at least read a dorm room poster at some point in his life.
Because when Obama did it in 08, all those bitter moderates voted Republican.
And they're still shitty that it didn't stop Obama for daring to run against Hillary when it was her turn.
So for 16 years they've been repeating to themselves that a progressive candidate can't win because moderates will vote Republican. Even though the only time in modern history it happened, the progressive still flipped a bunch of red states in a huge win.
The people running the DNC are fucking terrible at getting Democrats elected, because they don't have the same idea of what a democratic candidate should be as what party voters think a candidate should be.
It’s worse than that, they don’t care if a dem is elected or not, they raise more money being the opposition party when a hated opponent is in office anyway. Not like he is going to do anything that hurts them or their pocket books directly anyway
The student loan thing where he's gotten more than 100 billion forgiven? That thing?
The thing where he lost control of the narrative?
Nibbling at the corners night be effective, but it's not the sort of sound bite that makes a great campaign.
Democracy runs on vibes, and it's sad to say, but he might need style more than substance here. Do something that can't be filtered thriugh 92 layers of Congress and the Courts neutering it- something unforgettable. Play a keytar in a neon leotard on Colbert. Promise the return of the 99-cent Taco Supreme. Announce that he could drop Rishi Sunak in a bare-knuckle fight. Go full Dark Brandon.
They will have to live with the ramifications the longest. I suppose politics is always been that way where the least engaged suffer the most dire consequences
Ironically, any negative consequences of their actions they'll deny. It's human nature. Whatever fiction they invent, as a justification, will simply benefit fascists, as lies always do. There are still NAZIs in Germany. Sadly it takes economic stability for the left and progressives to be able to fight back, and there isn't mush of that in the world.
Nobody wanted to choose between Hilary and Trump in 2016 and look what fucking happened. Don't make the same dumbfuck mistake by not voting or voting 3rd party without enough support to ever come close to winning.
Everyone sucks; but you're not doing anything good by not choosing the least shitty option.
Nobody wanted to choose between Hilary and Trump in 2016
Party leadership wanted exactly that. They got their second choice.
"It feels like the older generation is still in charge, and there are such huge differences in our experiences," said Jeremy Gold, 30, of Nashville.
"We feel like we've been ripped off by the 'American dream' idea ‒ we've seen the financial repercussions of our parents' and grandparents' generations multiple times over, seen a lot more violence and war than we were originally told would happen, and we feel ripped off," he said. "The lack of voting is probably a little bit of a middle finger to those who passed that to us."
This is how I feel.
Is there some chance Biden might win Tennessee? Why do we care about what a bunch of 20 year olds in Tennessee specifically think?
We don't. The news, however, does. Their mission is to get clicks, and shit like this gets clicks.
(I mean I didn't click on it, but in general I think it's far far more effective than updating people with what's going on with the Houthis or another story about how Trump is a crook or something like that.)
Democrats: we don't care what you think, but we demand your vote.
I don't think it's reasonable to discount what people (especially working people or Palestinian people) think, no. And the Democrats have a long, long track record of doing that, fair play. As a great example, Hillary Clinton's "if you're not in a swing state or you're not one of my delegates then fuck you" attitude definitely didn't do her any favors.
I do think however that it's perfectly reasonable not to care what one particular person thinks, who clearly has been victimized by a certain level of corporate misinformation in the media. That whole situation is clearly worth talking about as a problem, but not as a "Biden needs to do a better job of agreeing with what this person thinks" problem. In my opinion.
I don’t think it’s reasonable to discount what people (especially working people or Palestinian people) think, no. And the Democrats have a long, long track record of doing that, fair play.
And yet, the party is still doing it. Your comment is consistent with the party's "fuck you, we're never changing and you're going to vote for us" message.
Why are you arguing with me dude, on this I'm agreeing with you
Why are you arguing with me dude, on this I’m agreeing with you
You agree that your comment is consistent with Democrats' "Fuck you" messaging? Ok.
I think you're just wired for conflict maybe 🙂
Establishment Democrats: Fuck you
You: They shouldn't say that
Me: They shouldn't say that
You: You agree that your comment is consistent with Democrats' "Fuck you" messaging
I feel I've said pretty much what I need to say about it at this point
You know which comment I was referring to, and have chosen to misrepresent what I've said. Expecting honesty from you was a mistake that I'll never make again.
So here's what I meant by that: I'm actually specifically agreeing with what you say about the Democrats being tone deaf and dismissive of legitimate concerns. I think it causes harm to the Democrats (in elections) and harm to the country (because it leads them to pursue a harmful neoliberal agenda and not listen to criticism of it a lot of the time.) What you're saying, I'm agreeing with.
I'm also saying that this particular thing is not a fully legitimate concern. I've talked at length about my factual reasons why a big chunk of the article's laundry list of complaints about the country -- which the list is 100% legitimate, yes -- shouldn't be applied to Biden, because he (rather unusually for a Democrat) has been taking concrete steps to try to address them. And, that not voting for him will definitely make a whole lot of them (probably the entire list) much, much worse.
You can disagree with all that, and that's all good. We can talk if you like. But IDK man... if you've ever been on the receiving end of this kind of "how dare you not even apologize for X, I'm so upset" "but I didn't actually do X" "there you go again, how dare you" circular argument I think you can understand the difference between those two things -- no?
This exchange:
Why do we care about what a bunch of 20 year olds in Tennessee specifically think?
We don’t.
Sure seems consistent with the "fuck you" messaging.
Let me be more specific, then:
Ramos is one of many young voters stewing with grievances over the country's future, from the existential crisis of climate change to the frustration over inflation, reproductive rights, high interest rates, Israel's war in Gaza, immigration reform and the power corporations have over their working conditions.
She's mad Biden and Democrats have failed to protect reproductive rights or wipe out student loans. (emphasis mine)
These people are wrong. Full stop. The logic they're using makes no sense, because factually, their ideas about what Biden has and hasn't done don't line up with reality.
And, I strongly suspect that this particular article has cherry-picked these particular people to present a particular narrative, instead of honestly trying to inform its readers about what's actually going on.
So maybe it's OTT for me to say I don't care what these people think. If you want to talk about fixing the media so these particular people won't be so wrong that they'll bring up student loans as a big example of something Biden hasn't done, that would lead them not to vote for him even over Trump, then that sounds great. But if the idea is that I have to listen to their ideas and take them seriously, then no, I don't think I do, because they're wrong. There's a huge difference between that viewpoint and the standard DNC viewpoint of "IDC if you're suffering, I don't want to listen or try to help you solve it."
I took some time to carve out and explicitly agree with you about the standard DNC viewpoint, because you and I are on the same page about it. If you want to argue though that these particular people are ones that Biden needs to be listening to because they're worth listening to, I'm going to keep saying, no, they're not.
Do you really think this is a Tennessee-only problem?
No, but I do feel like their responses partially reflect certain regional attitudes which is irrelevant unless states like Tennessee can greatly improve turnout, educate their average voters and overcome Republican vote suppression.
What specifically about their responses gave you that impression? Nothing in those responses had any Tennessee specific concerns, most were very national issues consistently among the top concerns of young voters. You could find the same viewpoints in Michigan where youth enthusiasm could win the election.
This is true, TN will never vote Biden.
Wow. Do you have an actual picture of yourself in your profile? As a lemmy user? I gotta ask: why?! Especially if you came from reddit
Edit: genuinely not trying to be a jerk. Just curious. I've seen your comments here and there and you seen like a nice guy
Yup! That's me! Never be ashamed of who you are. ;) I TRY to be a nice guy... some times it's more difficult than others.
I appreciate that you responded and didn't take it personally. I guess what piqued my interest in the first place was the motivation. On this platform and others like it, you have nothing to gain by posting an image of yourself, but you potentially have something to lose considering it's a pathway that links your real life to your profile. It makes you traceable.
I just don't get it. It's not like this is Instagram or Facebook, where part of the point is to link your profile to your identity. Why expose yourself if you don't need to?
I think, having a picture, humanizes the posts. It's no longer random text scrolling on a screen, it emphasises that there's an actual, real human being here.
Something that's otherwise precious easy to forget on platforms like this.
It's a really good point and I'm genuinely impressed that you have made that choice.
It's not like I am embarrassed about any posts that I've made here, but I don't think I could do the same. The transparency is both admirable and terrifying to me. Anyway, I'm glad you're part of this community. Shine on you crazy diamond.
How many troll headlines like this are young voters going to accept? Every headline like this just screams, "Young voters are to f*cking stupid to understand." Seriously trolls, this is the best you've got?
I suppose everyone has to regret something....
ITT: angry centrists who would rather lose and have someone to blame than admit that politicians need to appeal to voters.
Lemmy.world users trying not to blame Biden for his own unpopularity challenge (impossible)
How about we just all admit the government is bad and burn it all to the ground?
I love how anything that's remotely anti-Biden or anti-Democrat gets downvoted around here... god forbid the "politics" sub is neutral...and not one-sided like Reddit...
The user posting is known to post propaganda. If you've read the article, you'd see how one-sided it is. And if young people are turned off by both candidates, why is the article only discussing the supposed "young liberals" that aren't going to vote? Where are the young conservatives?
Hi, it's me. The Russian/China/MAGA bot. Just because you don't agree with the article doesn't mean it's not real. Instead of burying your head in the sand, learn why some voters aren't supporting Biden.
It's propaganda through and through. I've pointed out exactly why it's propaganda. Try to prove me otherwise.
These are all news articles from mainstream liberal and leftist sources. That doesn't make it propaganda.
Do you remember how much of an echo chamber Reddit's/r/politics became? Is that what you want for Lemmy's politics too? Nobody can be critical of Biden or the Democratic party?
Except I've pointed out exactly why it's propaganda. I'm critical of Biden, too, but the article you posted, which isn't the first time, is clear propaganda. You can continue to post this shit but don't be surprised when people call you our for it.
Okay fuck. None of it is anti Biden. However, story number 4 is "Nancy Pelosi Among 40 House Democrats Demanding Biden Halt Weapon Transfers to Israel." +486 upvotes, -15 downvotes
Seems like if it's criticism that makes sense, people are fine with it, and if it's just an excuse to throw poop nuggets at him, people don't like it. For example I'm not really aware of any significant contingent that thinks it's anything other than horrifying that Biden is supporting Israel in its genocide.
Nancy Pelosi Among 40 House Democrats Demanding Biden Halt Weapon Transfers to Israel
This is why we cant trust them, they say one thing, then do another
Nice pivot. Meanwhile, over in some other thread, happened the mirror image exchange:
A: Biden is (horrible thing the Republicans did) on purpose! We can't trust him!
B: Here's why he's not actually doing that thing, with evidence
A: New topic! Lemmy is a monolith, you all just reject any criticism of Biden!
They should refuse to participate in a system that does not represent them or their needs. It's not enough for Biden to say we are not trump when most of his policies are carried over from Trump or are variations of them. In 2020 they voted for Biden and got more of trump.
Feels like a broken record at this point
In 2020 they voted for Biden and got:
$150 billion in student loan forgiveness
Lowest unemployment in 20-50 years depending on how you count
Wealth inequality going down for the first time in I have no idea how long
Actual urgent effort to address climate change for the first time in US history
15% minimum corporate tax, Amazon paying higher taxes than they ever have before by quite a large margin (which is what funded most of the above)
And, that all happened despite absolutely rabid resistance from the Republicans at every turn.
A lot of people are still suffering, which makes it hard to feel like anything is good -- in particular, inflation is rising faster than wages at the top end of the scale, which makes it "feel" especially to people in the tech industry like the economy is still doing bad (which, it kind of is). However, wages for people who do housekeeping or manufacturing or etc are actually rising faster than inflation by quite a large margin -- that's incredibly unusual in the modern day even when inflation isn't spiking, and it's a direct result of some of Biden's policies like strengthening the NLRB or spending billions and billions of dollars of Amazon's money on domestic manufacturing.
The criticism of Biden over his criminal support for Israel is real and fair. Of course, he's at least making some limp little noises about maybe giving Netanyahu a stern talking to if he exceeds his dead children quota, whereas Trump just wants to kill all the Palestinians and ban Muslims from the country and maybe start with Hispanics too.
The mythology that people got betrayed who voted for Biden is very explicit propaganda; it has absolutely no grounding in the reality of what happened.
I don't think housekeepers are seeing the increase. They say "the lower end" and I'm pretty sure it's talking about the new stronger contracts unions won through strikes and what not. That's not a ding on Biden.
Biden took some pretty unusual action to strengthen the NLRB, which is part of the reason unions have been having all these successes recently. It's not just the one or just the other; the battles the unions have been picking and the hard work they've been doing have been able to win them successes, and also they've also been getting legal and political backing that they usually haven't been getting, and each makes the other easier to do.
But also, yes, housekeepers are seeing the increase. Increases in wages for anyone tends to drive competition that drives up wages for everyone who's roughly in the same bracket and category. What I meant in talking about the lower end was overall US wage income at the 10th percentile; I was just using housekeeping as one random example. But yes:
The typical housekeeper therefore saw their wages beat inflation by 15.1 percentage points, even in a time of incredibly high inflation. That's fucking astoundingly unusual, even if it's invisible to most people who talk about politics and economics in Washington and on Lemmy.
For what it's worth, the "housekeepers" mentioned in the data are mostly hotel workers. And they made big, and public, wage strides through union strikes. Not saying it's bad or anything, just saying. But let's say all that was completely wrong. Even on that weird, unreal hypothetical...that still gives zero fucking reasons to not vote for Biden in November. It's why I don't really like discussing this shit. When someone says they aren't going to vote, or vote for trump, I'm just done. It's the dumbest fucking thinking.
And they made big, and public, wage strides through union strikes.
Exactly. Waiting for elections to get things done isn't going to do it. Every major movement in the US started with direct action and organization, and the votes came later when they couldn't ignore the direct action anymore.
To be fair - abortion was also a huge issue and Biden has made no progress on that point. It doesn't help to deny his failures even if he has had quite a few successes (and it seems impossible that Biden could have actually addressed abortion rights in any meaningful way beyond what he did). That's a bar he set for himself.
Are you sure that the unfolding abortion disaster in this country currently is what you want to pick to argue the "it doesn't matter whether we elect Democrats or Republicans, because the outcome will be the same" thesis?
Think again. Are you sure? Because I'm happy to argue against that thesis if you're sure you want to stick with it. I think probably you can imagine what my argument will be without me even needing to say it.
I'm not sure how you got that out of what the guy wrote.
TBH I think I read "Biden has made no progress" and "It doesn't help to deny his failures" and didn't read in depth much beyond that. I think you're right that it was unfair to assume; rereading it now, I just don't really understand what they actually meant. But yeah maybe it was unfair to assume what I did about what they're saying.
Like they say "it seems impossible that Biden could have actually addressed abortion rights in any meaningful way beyond what he did." Okay, agreed... So is it still a failure of his that I'm not acknowledging?
I think it's a very understandable failure from Biden as I personally don't believe stuffing the Supreme Court would be a reasonable approach, additionally Biden couldn't tell that Democrats would get swept in the midterms when he was elected.
That all said, Biden very much ran on abortion (in a "I'll fix it" way - not just "Trump will ban it nationally") so it is a promise he made that he couldn't keep. Do I blame Biden for the shortfall? No. Do I think Biden shouldn't have implied he'd reinstate abortion rights? Yes.
Anyways, come November I'm voting for Biden because otherwise Trump will absolutely, guaranteed, murder women through denying reasonable healthcare.
Thank you. It's fair to hold Biden accountable for what he's done and not done, but we must always remember the alternative is Trump, and if you think Biden is bad, you must have forgot the utter and complete shitshow 2017 through 2020 was.
I try to just stay out of these conversations. Obviously failed here. :) I'm not a Biden fan by any stretch, but this election isn't even about policy. It's about staying a country under the Constitution, which is arguably on shaky ground, and full blown fascism. I get the people who thinks everything sucks and we need to blow it all up and start fresh, but trump is just following the German handbook from the 1930s. It's so clear, yet a significant part of our population not only doesn't care, but is cheering them on. The crazy gaslit feeling just continues on.
Fuck off I absolutely do care and you can dig into my history if you doubt that I've advocated for voting for Biden even with all the flaws.
If you're going to deny obvious facts your words are meaningless. Don't infantilize the people you're talking to.
It's an effective communication technique to compromise on your position in an effort to convince others.
I mean I'm not trying to be condescending or hostile about it even though I absolutely was. It just seemed like you were making an argument that made absolutely no sense. If you want to clarify because I've misunderstood something about what you're saying, I'm fine with that.
I'd like to know exactly what policies you're referring to.
Let me ask you, how do you feel about the Patriot act? What about the no default student loans? What about the increase of incarcerations from a heighten war on drugs?
Why do you think voting for the guy who did all this just one more time is going to undo all of that when he spent his entire carrier catering to people even more right than the Democrats?
Doesn't answer my question.
I named three of of his policies yes. You didn't answer mine.
They are also 'saving democracy' by passing warrantless spying
Look buddy, you don't get it. I understand that you don't want chlamidya, but if you don't want gonorrhea you're going to have to make some though choices ok? And if not well it'll be you're fault were all getting chlamidya. Anyway, just one more vote bro, this is the most important election ever I swear! We'll fix it this time, I swear!
Man these right-wingers are annoying. I thought it would be better here on Lemmy than it used to be on Reddit, but I guess standard issue Americans are everywhere :/
You can either have AIDS, or else this milkshake that also has some rocks in it.
FTFY
Lol I got upvote for this. I don't think the Democrats understand that they are the right-wingers in my comment. Not the sharpest tools in the shed. Zero self awareness.
Back in real life, your lame attempt at sarcasm or whatever is pretty apparent. The usual “OMG I’m so left wing that we should get Trump elected” bullshit.
So apparent that before I pointed it out I was sitting at +10. Like I said not the sharpest tool in the shed. But also despicable.
Literally no leftists wants Trump to get elected. We just think you're doing it to yourselves. He is a natural consequence of your continued support for this system.
Ah yes, telling me I am “despicable” is a solid tactic.
Sitting out from the electoral process or supporting futile 3rd party candidates isn’t going to work either. We’re not going to change the system as 3% of the population, sorry. Pushing for better Democratic candidates and urging voting reform so that 3rd party candidates are viable is the only way I see forward. Certainly not wanking off over negative sarcastic bullshit on Lemmy, but I suppose you know better.
50 years of the 'lesser evil' that's grown so large and they can't stand the monster they helped create
Vs doing what? This shit is so unrealistic.
The typical liberal solution is keep feeding the monster they created
True leftists in the US are not present in numbers large enough to even remotely have a choice. This shit was going on well before I was born, personally.
On second thought, I'm not even sure what your dramatic statement is supposed to mean. What monster are you referring to? Biden not being progressive enough or something?
They're referring to Trump being the monster we created. Guy thinks he's enlightened, lol.
It's a really childish view of what voting is supposed to be. No, Biden isn't everything you want, but Trump is a DUMPSTER FIRE who will actively make your life WORSE.
So your choice is:
Ok, and? What's your plan to get people that are barely removed from actually being children to vote more? It's easy to come up with a reason why each segment of non-voters is making a dumb and self-destructive choice by not doing their patriotic duty to elect the better leader, but like, we still need them to vote. Elections are won on turning out unreliable voters.
The only real plan, unfortunately, is experience. They failed to learn the lesson from 4 years of Trump, if the country survives another 4 years maybe they'll think better next time.
"Oh, shit, I totally should have voted!"
Yeah, ya think?
The best things we can do now are too late for '24:
Push for universal vote by mail in ALL states. It eliminates the barriers to voting and increases participation.
Get ranked choice balloting in ALL states. Alaska is embarrassing the rest of us.
Just getting those two things would go a long way to permanently remove Republicans from power... which is why they won't do them voluntarily.
Those things are too late for 2048 even.
Yup. That prefrontal cortex thing. Sadly, many people way past adolescence never seem to have a fully-functioning one, either.
He's everything anyone who says this wants.
I want to not have Trump set it all on fire, which means voting Biden.
The notion that all misgivings are bratty insistence on perfection is insulting to people who have serious objections.
From people who have none.
I mean, the argument is "Biden isn't good enough, so I don't give a shit if the DRASTICALLY WORSE option wins."
Of course you sound like bratty perfectionists.
And you sound like you love everything Biden does. Especially the genocide support.
No sweetheart, it's called harm reduction. You see, the other option to intensify that genocide support.
Demeaning pet names and condescension are what centrists do when they can't defend the genocide they have always wanted.
We are not on the same page.
That's fucking stupid. Most of Biden's base doesn't fucking like him. Our two options both have really shitty approval ratings.
We vote against the guy we hate the most here, not for someone we like.
I've already said I'm voting for the pro-genocide candidate you prefer. I am not abstaining, nor voting for the other pro-genocide candidate.
I am saying that if Biden does not cease his support for genocide, he will lose. You will blame me for his loss anyway because you don't care how anyone votes, you just want performative unquestioning fealty to your guy.
Oh no, I mean. When he loses it will be because of his disgusting choices in regards to the genocide. We're on the same page.
"Hey, if that guy wins, he's going to rob everyone then set fire to their grandmother. That means we can simply do nothing and it's a shoe-in!"
"Au contraire, mon frere. That means so long as we don't set fire to people's grandmothers, not only do we get to rob everyone, but they'll thank us for doing it, and we will own them."
Yeah no. We'll take the L just to see you get robbed too, and the smoke from your burning grandmothers will be as incense in our nostrils.
If the motherfucker thinks people will give him a pass on genocide as tribute for saving the country from trump, he's going to get a brutal fucking lesson in petty spite.
Biden is NOT the one committing genocide. Save that ire for Bibi where it belongs.
Biden is sending bibi new weapons daily
And Bibi is the one choosing to use them.
"I didn't kill anyone, I just gave the homicidal maniac a better gun. And then after he had already killed a lot of people, I went above and beyond to get him more ammo."
How do you feel about moral responsibility for people who fund terrorists? No harm, no foul as long as they're not personally planting bombs?
When Trump doubles the US's support for Israel I hope you get a good view from up on your high horse.
Biden is selling weapons that he knows will be used to commit genocide.
He should stop. Yes, Trump is worse. Yes, I'm voting for Biden. No one should be supporting genocide.
Your options are
Genocide
Genocide, but more of it
Lol I don't care.
Do you wanna protest? Riot? Something more drastic? You can vote and do that, so long as you avoid a felony conviction.
Why is the answer never "Biden has to do something bold and public to earn the votes of the unexcited, rather than leaning on I'm-not-Trump?"
The student loan thing night have worked if the courts didn't shoot it full of holes. Why is he not promising to pack the courts to force it through? Stonewall any legislation that limps through the knife-edge House until they codify Roe? Go for the fucking jugular on something!
Showing some real backbone to Bibi might help, but we can't possibly have that.
I keep expecting they'll reschedule marijuana for the desperate hail mary. You'd think it was perfect for him because in many ways it wouldn't really change the status quo of state-level legalization, but shows he's at least read a dorm room poster at some point in his life.
Because when Obama did it in 08, all those bitter moderates voted Republican.
And they're still shitty that it didn't stop Obama for daring to run against Hillary when it was her turn.
So for 16 years they've been repeating to themselves that a progressive candidate can't win because moderates will vote Republican. Even though the only time in modern history it happened, the progressive still flipped a bunch of red states in a huge win.
The people running the DNC are fucking terrible at getting Democrats elected, because they don't have the same idea of what a democratic candidate should be as what party voters think a candidate should be.
It’s worse than that, they don’t care if a dem is elected or not, they raise more money being the opposition party when a hated opponent is in office anyway. Not like he is going to do anything that hurts them or their pocket books directly anyway
The student loan thing where he's gotten more than 100 billion forgiven? That thing?
The thing where he lost control of the narrative?
Nibbling at the corners night be effective, but it's not the sort of sound bite that makes a great campaign.
Democracy runs on vibes, and it's sad to say, but he might need style more than substance here. Do something that can't be filtered thriugh 92 layers of Congress and the Courts neutering it- something unforgettable. Play a keytar in a neon leotard on Colbert. Promise the return of the 99-cent Taco Supreme. Announce that he could drop Rishi Sunak in a bare-knuckle fight. Go full Dark Brandon.
They will have to live with the ramifications the longest. I suppose politics is always been that way where the least engaged suffer the most dire consequences
Ironically, any negative consequences of their actions they'll deny. It's human nature. Whatever fiction they invent, as a justification, will simply benefit fascists, as lies always do. There are still NAZIs in Germany. Sadly it takes economic stability for the left and progressives to be able to fight back, and there isn't mush of that in the world.
Nobody wanted to choose between Hilary and Trump in 2016 and look what fucking happened. Don't make the same dumbfuck mistake by not voting or voting 3rd party without enough support to ever come close to winning.
Everyone sucks; but you're not doing anything good by not choosing the least shitty option.
Party leadership wanted exactly that. They got their second choice.
This is how I feel.
Is there some chance Biden might win Tennessee? Why do we care about what a bunch of 20 year olds in Tennessee specifically think?
We don't. The news, however, does. Their mission is to get clicks, and shit like this gets clicks.
(I mean I didn't click on it, but in general I think it's far far more effective than updating people with what's going on with the Houthis or another story about how Trump is a crook or something like that.)
Democrats: we don't care what you think, but we demand your vote.
I don't think it's reasonable to discount what people (especially working people or Palestinian people) think, no. And the Democrats have a long, long track record of doing that, fair play. As a great example, Hillary Clinton's "if you're not in a swing state or you're not one of my delegates then fuck you" attitude definitely didn't do her any favors.
I do think however that it's perfectly reasonable not to care what one particular person thinks, who clearly has been victimized by a certain level of corporate misinformation in the media. That whole situation is clearly worth talking about as a problem, but not as a "Biden needs to do a better job of agreeing with what this person thinks" problem. In my opinion.
And yet, the party is still doing it. Your comment is consistent with the party's "fuck you, we're never changing and you're going to vote for us" message.
Why are you arguing with me dude, on this I'm agreeing with you
You agree that your comment is consistent with Democrats' "Fuck you" messaging? Ok.
I think you're just wired for conflict maybe 🙂
I feel I've said pretty much what I need to say about it at this point
You know which comment I was referring to, and have chosen to misrepresent what I've said. Expecting honesty from you was a mistake that I'll never make again.
So here's what I meant by that: I'm actually specifically agreeing with what you say about the Democrats being tone deaf and dismissive of legitimate concerns. I think it causes harm to the Democrats (in elections) and harm to the country (because it leads them to pursue a harmful neoliberal agenda and not listen to criticism of it a lot of the time.) What you're saying, I'm agreeing with.
I'm also saying that this particular thing is not a fully legitimate concern. I've talked at length about my factual reasons why a big chunk of the article's laundry list of complaints about the country -- which the list is 100% legitimate, yes -- shouldn't be applied to Biden, because he (rather unusually for a Democrat) has been taking concrete steps to try to address them. And, that not voting for him will definitely make a whole lot of them (probably the entire list) much, much worse.
You can disagree with all that, and that's all good. We can talk if you like. But IDK man... if you've ever been on the receiving end of this kind of "how dare you not even apologize for X, I'm so upset" "but I didn't actually do X" "there you go again, how dare you" circular argument I think you can understand the difference between those two things -- no?
This exchange:
Sure seems consistent with the "fuck you" messaging.
Let me be more specific, then:
These people are wrong. Full stop. The logic they're using makes no sense, because factually, their ideas about what Biden has and hasn't done don't line up with reality.
And, I strongly suspect that this particular article has cherry-picked these particular people to present a particular narrative, instead of honestly trying to inform its readers about what's actually going on.
So maybe it's OTT for me to say I don't care what these people think. If you want to talk about fixing the media so these particular people won't be so wrong that they'll bring up student loans as a big example of something Biden hasn't done, that would lead them not to vote for him even over Trump, then that sounds great. But if the idea is that I have to listen to their ideas and take them seriously, then no, I don't think I do, because they're wrong. There's a huge difference between that viewpoint and the standard DNC viewpoint of "IDC if you're suffering, I don't want to listen or try to help you solve it."
I took some time to carve out and explicitly agree with you about the standard DNC viewpoint, because you and I are on the same page about it. If you want to argue though that these particular people are ones that Biden needs to be listening to because they're worth listening to, I'm going to keep saying, no, they're not.
Do you really think this is a Tennessee-only problem?
No, but I do feel like their responses partially reflect certain regional attitudes which is irrelevant unless states like Tennessee can greatly improve turnout, educate their average voters and overcome Republican vote suppression.
What specifically about their responses gave you that impression? Nothing in those responses had any Tennessee specific concerns, most were very national issues consistently among the top concerns of young voters. You could find the same viewpoints in Michigan where youth enthusiasm could win the election.
This is true, TN will never vote Biden.
Wow. Do you have an actual picture of yourself in your profile? As a lemmy user? I gotta ask: why?! Especially if you came from reddit
Edit: genuinely not trying to be a jerk. Just curious. I've seen your comments here and there and you seen like a nice guy
Yup! That's me! Never be ashamed of who you are. ;) I TRY to be a nice guy... some times it's more difficult than others.
I appreciate that you responded and didn't take it personally. I guess what piqued my interest in the first place was the motivation. On this platform and others like it, you have nothing to gain by posting an image of yourself, but you potentially have something to lose considering it's a pathway that links your real life to your profile. It makes you traceable.
I just don't get it. It's not like this is Instagram or Facebook, where part of the point is to link your profile to your identity. Why expose yourself if you don't need to?
I think, having a picture, humanizes the posts. It's no longer random text scrolling on a screen, it emphasises that there's an actual, real human being here.
Something that's otherwise precious easy to forget on platforms like this.
It's a really good point and I'm genuinely impressed that you have made that choice.
It's not like I am embarrassed about any posts that I've made here, but I don't think I could do the same. The transparency is both admirable and terrifying to me. Anyway, I'm glad you're part of this community. Shine on you crazy diamond.
How many troll headlines like this are young voters going to accept? Every headline like this just screams, "Young voters are to f*cking stupid to understand." Seriously trolls, this is the best you've got?
I suppose everyone has to regret something....
ITT: angry centrists who would rather lose and have someone to blame than admit that politicians need to appeal to voters.
Lemmy.world users trying not to blame Biden for his own unpopularity challenge (impossible)
How about we just all admit the government is bad and burn it all to the ground?
I love how anything that's remotely anti-Biden or anti-Democrat gets downvoted around here... god forbid the "politics" sub is neutral...and not one-sided like Reddit...
The user posting is known to post propaganda. If you've read the article, you'd see how one-sided it is. And if young people are turned off by both candidates, why is the article only discussing the supposed "young liberals" that aren't going to vote? Where are the young conservatives?
Hi, it's me. The Russian/China/MAGA bot. Just because you don't agree with the article doesn't mean it's not real. Instead of burying your head in the sand, learn why some voters aren't supporting Biden.
It's propaganda through and through. I've pointed out exactly why it's propaganda. Try to prove me otherwise.
These are all news articles from mainstream liberal and leftist sources. That doesn't make it propaganda.
Do you remember how much of an echo chamber Reddit's/r/politics became? Is that what you want for Lemmy's politics too? Nobody can be critical of Biden or the Democratic party?
Except I've pointed out exactly why it's propaganda. I'm critical of Biden, too, but the article you posted, which isn't the first time, is clear propaganda. You can continue to post this shit but don't be surprised when people call you our for it.
Well stick around, November is a long ways away.
I'm gonna go and check what are the top 3 posts for the past week in !politics@lemmy.world and !world@lemmy.world
Okay fuck. None of it is anti Biden. However, story number 4 is "Nancy Pelosi Among 40 House Democrats Demanding Biden Halt Weapon Transfers to Israel." +486 upvotes, -15 downvotes
Seems like if it's criticism that makes sense, people are fine with it, and if it's just an excuse to throw poop nuggets at him, people don't like it. For example I'm not really aware of any significant contingent that thinks it's anything other than horrifying that Biden is supporting Israel in its genocide.
This is why we cant trust them, they say one thing, then do another
Nice pivot. Meanwhile, over in some other thread, happened the mirror image exchange:
A: Biden is (horrible thing the Republicans did) on purpose! We can't trust him!
B: Here's why he's not actually doing that thing, with evidence
A: New topic! Lemmy is a monolith, you all just reject any criticism of Biden!
They should refuse to participate in a system that does not represent them or their needs. It's not enough for Biden to say we are not trump when most of his policies are carried over from Trump or are variations of them. In 2020 they voted for Biden and got more of trump.
Feels like a broken record at this point
In 2020 they voted for Biden and got:
And, that all happened despite absolutely rabid resistance from the Republicans at every turn.
A lot of people are still suffering, which makes it hard to feel like anything is good -- in particular, inflation is rising faster than wages at the top end of the scale, which makes it "feel" especially to people in the tech industry like the economy is still doing bad (which, it kind of is). However, wages for people who do housekeeping or manufacturing or etc are actually rising faster than inflation by quite a large margin -- that's incredibly unusual in the modern day even when inflation isn't spiking, and it's a direct result of some of Biden's policies like strengthening the NLRB or spending billions and billions of dollars of Amazon's money on domestic manufacturing.
The criticism of Biden over his criminal support for Israel is real and fair. Of course, he's at least making some limp little noises about maybe giving Netanyahu a stern talking to if he exceeds his dead children quota, whereas Trump just wants to kill all the Palestinians and ban Muslims from the country and maybe start with Hispanics too.
The mythology that people got betrayed who voted for Biden is very explicit propaganda; it has absolutely no grounding in the reality of what happened.
I don't think housekeepers are seeing the increase. They say "the lower end" and I'm pretty sure it's talking about the new stronger contracts unions won through strikes and what not. That's not a ding on Biden.
Biden took some pretty unusual action to strengthen the NLRB, which is part of the reason unions have been having all these successes recently. It's not just the one or just the other; the battles the unions have been picking and the hard work they've been doing have been able to win them successes, and also they've also been getting legal and political backing that they usually haven't been getting, and each makes the other easier to do.
But also, yes, housekeepers are seeing the increase. Increases in wages for anyone tends to drive competition that drives up wages for everyone who's roughly in the same bracket and category. What I meant in talking about the lower end was overall US wage income at the 10th percentile; I was just using housekeeping as one random example. But yes:
The typical housekeeper therefore saw their wages beat inflation by 15.1 percentage points, even in a time of incredibly high inflation. That's fucking astoundingly unusual, even if it's invisible to most people who talk about politics and economics in Washington and on Lemmy.
For what it's worth, the "housekeepers" mentioned in the data are mostly hotel workers. And they made big, and public, wage strides through union strikes. Not saying it's bad or anything, just saying. But let's say all that was completely wrong. Even on that weird, unreal hypothetical...that still gives zero fucking reasons to not vote for Biden in November. It's why I don't really like discussing this shit. When someone says they aren't going to vote, or vote for trump, I'm just done. It's the dumbest fucking thinking.
Exactly. Waiting for elections to get things done isn't going to do it. Every major movement in the US started with direct action and organization, and the votes came later when they couldn't ignore the direct action anymore.
To be fair - abortion was also a huge issue and Biden has made no progress on that point. It doesn't help to deny his failures even if he has had quite a few successes (and it seems impossible that Biden could have actually addressed abortion rights in any meaningful way beyond what he did). That's a bar he set for himself.
Are you sure that the unfolding abortion disaster in this country currently is what you want to pick to argue the "it doesn't matter whether we elect Democrats or Republicans, because the outcome will be the same" thesis?
Think again. Are you sure? Because I'm happy to argue against that thesis if you're sure you want to stick with it. I think probably you can imagine what my argument will be without me even needing to say it.
I'm not sure how you got that out of what the guy wrote.
TBH I think I read "Biden has made no progress" and "It doesn't help to deny his failures" and didn't read in depth much beyond that. I think you're right that it was unfair to assume; rereading it now, I just don't really understand what they actually meant. But yeah maybe it was unfair to assume what I did about what they're saying.
Like they say "it seems impossible that Biden could have actually addressed abortion rights in any meaningful way beyond what he did." Okay, agreed... So is it still a failure of his that I'm not acknowledging?
I think it's a very understandable failure from Biden as I personally don't believe stuffing the Supreme Court would be a reasonable approach, additionally Biden couldn't tell that Democrats would get swept in the midterms when he was elected.
That all said, Biden very much ran on abortion (in a "I'll fix it" way - not just "Trump will ban it nationally") so it is a promise he made that he couldn't keep. Do I blame Biden for the shortfall? No. Do I think Biden shouldn't have implied he'd reinstate abortion rights? Yes.
Anyways, come November I'm voting for Biden because otherwise Trump will absolutely, guaranteed, murder women through denying reasonable healthcare.
Thank you. It's fair to hold Biden accountable for what he's done and not done, but we must always remember the alternative is Trump, and if you think Biden is bad, you must have forgot the utter and complete shitshow 2017 through 2020 was.
I try to just stay out of these conversations. Obviously failed here. :) I'm not a Biden fan by any stretch, but this election isn't even about policy. It's about staying a country under the Constitution, which is arguably on shaky ground, and full blown fascism. I get the people who thinks everything sucks and we need to blow it all up and start fresh, but trump is just following the German handbook from the 1930s. It's so clear, yet a significant part of our population not only doesn't care, but is cheering them on. The crazy gaslit feeling just continues on.
Fuck off I absolutely do care and you can dig into my history if you doubt that I've advocated for voting for Biden even with all the flaws.
If you're going to deny obvious facts your words are meaningless. Don't infantilize the people you're talking to.
It's an effective communication technique to compromise on your position in an effort to convince others.
I mean I'm not trying to be condescending or hostile about it even though I absolutely was. It just seemed like you were making an argument that made absolutely no sense. If you want to clarify because I've misunderstood something about what you're saying, I'm fine with that.
I'd like to know exactly what policies you're referring to.
Let me ask you, how do you feel about the Patriot act? What about the no default student loans? What about the increase of incarcerations from a heighten war on drugs?
Why do you think voting for the guy who did all this just one more time is going to undo all of that when he spent his entire carrier catering to people even more right than the Democrats?
Doesn't answer my question.
I named three of of his policies yes. You didn't answer mine.
They are also 'saving democracy' by passing warrantless spying
Look buddy, you don't get it. I understand that you don't want chlamidya, but if you don't want gonorrhea you're going to have to make some though choices ok? And if not well it'll be you're fault were all getting chlamidya. Anyway, just one more vote bro, this is the most important election ever I swear! We'll fix it this time, I swear!
Man these right-wingers are annoying. I thought it would be better here on Lemmy than it used to be on Reddit, but I guess standard issue Americans are everywhere :/
You can either have AIDS, or else this milkshake that also has some rocks in it.
FTFY
Lol I got upvote for this. I don't think the Democrats understand that they are the right-wingers in my comment. Not the sharpest tools in the shed. Zero self awareness.
Back in real life, your lame attempt at sarcasm or whatever is pretty apparent. The usual “OMG I’m so left wing that we should get Trump elected” bullshit.
So apparent that before I pointed it out I was sitting at +10. Like I said not the sharpest tool in the shed. But also despicable.
Literally no leftists wants Trump to get elected. We just think you're doing it to yourselves. He is a natural consequence of your continued support for this system.
Ah yes, telling me I am “despicable” is a solid tactic.
Sitting out from the electoral process or supporting futile 3rd party candidates isn’t going to work either. We’re not going to change the system as 3% of the population, sorry. Pushing for better Democratic candidates and urging voting reform so that 3rd party candidates are viable is the only way I see forward. Certainly not wanking off over negative sarcastic bullshit on Lemmy, but I suppose you know better.
50 years of the 'lesser evil' that's grown so large and they can't stand the monster they helped create
Vs doing what? This shit is so unrealistic.
The typical liberal solution is keep feeding the monster they created
True leftists in the US are not present in numbers large enough to even remotely have a choice. This shit was going on well before I was born, personally.
On second thought, I'm not even sure what your dramatic statement is supposed to mean. What monster are you referring to? Biden not being progressive enough or something?
They're referring to Trump being the monster we created. Guy thinks he's enlightened, lol.
Ironic.
Yes, very.