Occasionally find myself envying people with faith and wonder how my life is different than theirs.
Pretty well, it lets me do things Jesus frowns upon and actually enjoy my life instead of being a spiritual slave to a human invention.
I can't think of anything I do that Jesus would frown upon. Leviticus? Yeah, I eat shellfish and the like, so probably he'd frown, but I think the main complaint from Jesus would be that I haven't given up all my worldly goods and helped the sick and poor enough -- and I don't think he'd be all that mad, regardless. It's not like I'm trying to make profits off money-changing in front of the temple.
I agree, I don't need some 2000 year old book to dictate how I live my life.
I will live my life on my own terms and if someone has a problem, they can respectfully leave my life.
Doesn’t doing all of the things you want to do still make you a slave, spiritual or otherwise, to a human invention? Your desires are created by yourself or others.
That’s not what being a slave means, at all, so no.
It doesn't. I don't think about it at all, honestly. Faith doesn't play a role in my life.
If anything, I feel it gives clarity to be aware that there's no higher being, and secure app inherent meaning or purpose with life.
Shit happens for no particular reason, and not because of fate or karma or whatnot.
Good stuff happens because of skill, hard work, and fortunate circumstances.
Actions have consequences. Not understanding this, or blaming some religious aspect, is stupid.
You can always pretend you have an imaginary friend to talk to and that they will make everything better. The only difference is that everyone claims they have the same imaginary friend. That club is always accepting new members.
I'm a full-blown atheist. My dad died a couple of years ago and I "talk" to him frequently simply because I'm accustomed to doing it and it's a nice thing to imagine. I know full well that there's no magical way he's still around and listening to me, but humans gonna human and there's nothing wrong with having quirks like that.
I recall reading a study a long time back where researchers put people in fMRI machines to monitor their pattern of brain activity and then asked them to consider some kind of ethical question. Some of the subjects were told to talk to an attendant who was physically present, some were told to talk to themselves about it, and some were told to talk to whatever deity they believed in about it. The brain activity patterns for talking to someone physically present were different from the brain activity patterns for talking to oneself, but the activity patterns for talking to oneself and talking to God were identical. It was a neat result.
I have an intern. Whenever I am confused or angry about something at work, which is often, I just talk to him. Something isn't working that should be, explain it to him. Demonstrate how I am right and the tech is somehow wrong. In the process I usually find the solution.
He technically doesn't report to me he reports to the general manager. I have told the general manager on multiple occasions that he is to please do whatever it takes to keep him here because production would grind to a halt.
Get an intern.
And their imaginary friend demands money and hatred of others.
To be fair, most peoples' imaginary friends happen to hate all the same people that they do.
I can’t imagine going through life thinking that everything I love and/or desire will send me to hell or whatever. Imagine living in fear because you think someone is watching and judging you. No thanks.
I don’t see any advantage to having any kind of religious faith. Seems like it just limits your options and gives you nothing in return.
Spoiler alert: most people don't really have faith, especially the ones screaming at you loudly how much they have it.
When you realize that, you'll see that people are a lot more similar across all religions - authentic/thinking people from any background at all on one side, vs. those who merely "inherit" their beliefs without every really challenging them at all on the other.
Right now there are many people leaving a religion and going to atheism so much like lemmy/kbin it has that "early-generation" ring to it, but give it a few hundred years and dumb people who inherit it will just as dumbly smash others over the head with that non-religion as people have for countless millennia with past religions.
My advice: KEEP QUESTIONING! If you happened to come from a Christian or Muslim background, there is 1 Thessalonians 5:21 that literally commands that, therefore asking questions is in no way contradictory to whatever "faith" means - and anyway how could someone have that if they did not even know what it meant?
I agree, I think that a lot of people who are raised that way are afraid to question. Hell is a pretty terrifying consequence for those who believe there's even a possibility that it's true. So I think a lot of them are trying to go through the motions just to rest assured that if they call themselves Christians and followed certain rituals that they're safe.
Deciding I didn't believe in hell was the first step and the rest of my faith quickly unraveled after that.
What's really weird - and I hope you take some comfort in this rather than be offended - is that you stand with Jesus in thinking that. I know, extremely ironic right?! :-P
"Do not heap heavy burdens upon others without offering to lift a finger to help them...", "Pay the worker their due wages, immediately not waiting until some other day...", "Consider the poor and alien among you as one of your own...", a lot of Christians would be shocked, Shocked I tell you, SHOCKED (well, they shouldn't be all that shocked) to find out what lays hidden in that B-I-B-L-E that so many claim to cherish.
Like somehow the church-going, cis-het family-man with 2.3 kids and a picket fence Obama is the Spawn of Satan while the oh-so-pious Donald tRump who shits on gold toilets and doesn't even drive his own car in NYC but instead flies above the common man on a heli is "God's Man", as well as a "true man of the people", "he gets us"? (to be clear: by "us" I mean "them") Uh... nope. The Bible has a few things to say about False Doctrine as well... flee from it!
So like, even if you believed in hell, and in fact all the more so if you do, then that's all the more reason to not be a bigoted asshole, not less!
Jesus was okay with honest sinners - but the ones he HATED the most (in fact, the ONLY ones He hated), with an absolute PASSION even, where the Karens of His day, aka the "super-Christians" of the time, loudmouthed bigots who literally killed Him b/c he kept trying to like feed the poor and shit, claiming that they were just as good as the Religious Leaders (and in fact way better).
There is some sunk costs fallicy involved here, with people being terrified of having wasted part their life in addition to wanting to stay out of Hell.
Be aware that most of what you see as happiness and comfort is actually just performative - they see that everyone around them is “happy” and their minister tells them if they follow the rules they will be happy. So they don’t want anyone to know how imperfect their lives are, so they pretend they are happy, and say all the right words and jump through all the right hoops.
Then you dig deeper and find that all their kids had kids out of wedlock, one is being abused by their spouse and is cheating on them, one disavowed any responsibility for their second kid they had with a second person who they weren’t married to…
You get the idea.
It isn’t all a front. The truth is that some religious communities do provide community to people who otherwise would be alone. But they are just groups of people with a shared hobby, not some kind of magic.
I grew up in a superficially religious household. This is spot on… it wasn’t a bad childhood by any means but soooo many things that deserved critical thinking or just accepting the pain of the situation were handed over to The Almighty. There are probably some decent coping skills buried in that level of faith but I don’t personally think it’s worth the cost.
I feel like, at their core, most religions boil down to two things, for most people:
Giving you purpose/security/scapegoats ("I'm living a good life so I can go to heaven," "the Lord has a plan/is watching over me," "Satan/sinners/demons tempted me")
Dissuading you from inquisitive, critical thought (out of self-preservation, I'd imagine)
Personally, I prefer to define my own purpose, live a more "dynamic" lifestyle than is traditional, think critically, and question authority. Doesn't make me "better" than religious folks, in fact they're probably overall happier than I am. But I can't imagine living that way, regardless of whether or not I believe in a magical sky Santa who can't decide whether he loves us unconditionally or whether or not he's actually omnipotent.
There's that, but also along with it comes an enormous sense of community. It's a lot easier to find friendship and companionship when you're in a group dedicated to a purpose that meets regularly, and it's a very attractive concept and feeling, even if people don't realize it.
I can relate to this. I'm a full blown atheist, someone who just doesn't have any doubt on their beliefs for religion.
Even then, when I visit my besties Eastern Orthodox Church once in a blue moon (probably for a significant personal occassion or learning a new Holiday I never celebrated), I still feel an overall sense of community at her Church, and it helps that everyone i've met there is so nice.
I don't believe being a Christian (especially a conservative Christian) is the lifestyle for me, and I just can not bring myself to believe for a moment in it, but even with that, the vague sense of community is still there. Makes for a pleasant trip at least.
For sure, there’s no community as large and passionate as religion. BUT there are other communities that are centered around goodwill to others, living a better life…some of them even have chanting, if you feel like you’d be missing that part lol.
Those communities usually involve doing work though (volunteering, performing, teaching, etc.) while you can just show up to church and kinda pay attention, and you’re in.
It probably doesn't. You can still believe in things, just maybe not those kinds of things.
Think about dressing up and going to some service every week and being pressured to pay and extra social tax. That will make you feel better.
Being forced into it due to family will feel bad. But if nothing else is going on, people might actually enjoy it. I have seen churches in the jungle and the mass on weekends was like a social happening like a party people were looking forward to.
What do you mean? Faith in a better future? My friends? The christian god?
I miss the sense of belonging and place that comes from rituals. While I don’t want to raise my child in the church, I’m trying to find ways to include ritual and ceremony in our lives. For example, I don’t want to pray before meals, so when we have a family meal I light a ceramic oil lamp to represent our time together.
I have an atheist Jewish friend. Me and him were talking and he mentioned really missing Friday night dinners with his family. As we were talking he came to the conclusion that I wanted him to get to. There was zero reason why he couldn't still have Friday night dinners with his family. Just like there is zero reason why I can't have a Christmas tree. He and his wife and children can all dress nice, sing a song or two, and have a big meal once a week.
That's the great thing. There is no one keeping score. If you miss something about your religious background you can still have it. You aren't going to lose atheist points. Especially for harmless family community stuff.
This resonated with me. Community and ritual without the religion
I know what you mean. I saved this blessing off years ago. I don’t remember where I got it, otherwise I’d attribute it to its author. It’s a great way to share that moment of reflection that prayer can provide without the actual religious aspect.
A Secular Grace
For what we are about to receive
let us be truly thankful
…to those who planted the crops
…to those who cultivated the fields
…to those who gathered the harvest.
For what we are about to receive
let us be truly thankful
to those who prepared it and those who served it.
In this festivity let us remember too
those who have no festivity
those who cannot share this plenty
those whose lives are more affected than our own
by war, oppression and exploitation
those who are hungry, sick and cold
In sharing in this meal
let us be truly thankful
for the good things we have
for the warm hospitality
and for this good company
Love it! May have to embroider this for the dining room wall.
I can't prove it but I bet there is some value of spending a moment before eating being grateful for food. Acknowledge the person who made it and paid for it and the people you are with enjoying it.
I think you’re actually looking for a different question to ask - “what do people with faith have that I currently do not?”
For me, personally, I found it to be a sense of purpose. In reality, life has no inherent meaning; we reproduce and hope to pass on our genes before we die. That is the one common denominator across all life on Earth. Faith tends to be an easy answer for giving purpose because you now live for God/Jesus/Yahweh/Allah/etc, and have guidelines for what one should strive to have in life. It’s an easy way to avoid having to face such a thing and I honestly don’t blame people for it - take away all the human elements of it and life is just hard, boring, and meaningless. Faith gives an answer for everything and provides a guide on how one should life live, for better or worse.
However, there’s an upside I don’t think people realize in realizing that life has no inherent meaning: you get to decide what is meaningful in your life. You get to choose the people who you want to care about in your life, what you want to aspire to be, what you think is worth living for… you get to find and create your own purpose, rather than an external influence telling you how to do so. It’s not easy doing that, and it will be a struggle… but if you’re struggling towards something more in life, whatever that may be… then that’s a beautiful thing to strive towards.
My life has meaning, no worries there! My family, my hobbies, making art, meeting people, eating and drinking, and sometines just being a nice/good person knowing that another human being might be slightly better off brings meaning to my life too.
For me religion is the easy and lazy way out instead of thinking about just that, what is moral (what is good and bad) and how should I live my life, as I'm the only one taking the decisions instead of going to daddy god for everything.
Living in fear of going to hell is another thing I don't need to think about too lol.
It can be a touch alienating; there's a swath of rituals you're now not a part of, either because you're actively excluded or because you just no longer fit there (talking about church events and the like).
Conversations change just a little bit too--in the same way monotheists look at polytheists funny when they invoke more than one god, atheists wind up looking at any theist in the same fashion. By that token, when people realize you're atheist, they look at you as a bit damaged--my bestie's cousin blurted out "tf is wrong with you?" when I admitted I was atheist, for instance. In the US it only takes a look at some states' laws on eligibility for public office to see that for some, the only thing worse than having a different faith is having none at all.
It can also be kind of disorienting; you spend quite a bit of time recalibrating your moral framework--what you consider right/wrong and why you take those positions. In this regard, it can be a bit draining too, dedicating so much of the processor sitting on your neck to a kind of reconfiguration.
Lastly and perhaps the worst drawback is how limiting it can feel: when there's no longer a higher power to feel guarded by, you're left with the realization that there's just your own little mortal self and it's depressing lack of influence.
But ultimately, I've found it kind of rewarding: ditching the need for a creator figure (and later, the concept of an afterlife altogether) has freed me of that dissonance that occurs when injustices or random tragedies occur. When you no longer lean on the idea that there must be an inherently just or attentive higher power, those bad things become a little less nerve-wracking.
And while I lose a some rituals and venues through which to connect with others, it's a drop in the ocean compared to what's still out there.
And that powerlessness we're left behind with eases when we recognize there's other kinds of power that come through community (nebulous as that concept feels right now).
I've never envied those with faith. I feel freedom and have comfort in knowing that I am a good person with good morals without being threatened by some mysterious being that allows such disgusting hatred to exist in their creation.
Exactly my take as well. Very well said.
To be honest, not a whole lot is different these days for me. I was raised to believe in God, Heaven, eventually Hell, and the importance of honoring the family tradition of going to Church every single Christmas and Easter, their occasions that absolutely cannot be missed.
I will note that I deconverted fully around 14 years old, ironically during the Christmas Eve service and my single biggest fear for a couple of years was my family finding out and their reaction.
Things have gotten better since then, and thankfully, my atheism is (mostly) accepted by my family these days, so all's well.
Obligatory comment: My sunday's are actually free now, so time for some video games.
Well it depends on what you mean. When I am being nice I define faith as "what I fear is not true". I for example have faith in human potential.
If however you mean the typical meaning of the term I don't envy them at all. I was born into a god-fearing home and I know exactly what horrorshow I left for good.
Most of us have a faith, for many that faith is not in any hokey old religion but in the things we have come to trust.
Can one have 'faith' that science is the correct path? I think so, I wouldn't call it faith like believing your actions are controlled by a magic ghost but I think it could still fit the word be believing in the ability of something to persevere even if it isn't immediately successful.
To show a quotation from an old TV show might highlight my point, "
OLD MAN 1: So much for your tolerant open-minded Starfleet ideals.
JANEWAY: There's a difference between respecting the spiritual beliefs of other cultures and embracing them myself.
OLD MAN 1: Fine. Don't embrace a thing. It's all the same to us. Go on back to your ship and play with your molecular microscanner.
OLD WOMAN: You've tried all that already, but it didn't work, did it. Kes didn't get better.
JANEWAY: No, she didn't.
OLD WOMAN: Why not?
JANEWAY: The Doctor couldn't explain it.
OLD WOMAN: So it's inexplicable. A miraculous non-recovery.
JANEWAY: We haven't found the reason yet.
OLD WOMAN: But of course you will. You'll find all the answers eventually, with enough time and study, and the right sort of tools. That's what you believe isn't it as a scientist?
OLD MAN 1: Be honest.
JANEWAY: Yes, that's what I've always believed.
OLD MAN 2: Even when her science fails right before her eyes she still has full confidence in it. Now there's a leap of faith.
OLD WOMAN: Unconditional trust. Now that's promising.
"
Very good take and excellent quote.
Everyone occasionally notices that they'd prefer a comfortable lie over a difficult truth. You need to choose which you value more: truth or comfort. It's not an easy question.
I still fool myself, but not in this particular way. It means mostly that I can't use "the gods did it" as an excuse. I find other excuses.
I have never strongly identified as any particular religion, so if that is where you're coming from this answer might not be helpful.
My parents both came from religious backgrounds, but they decided not to force me into any particular faith. When I was about 8, I started attending a Unitarian Universalist church, which certainly has religious tones but is very specific about accepting all kinds of faiths, choosing instead to focus on community.
As a result, I've been exposed to many different kinds of faith. I don't tend to believe any creation myths or creators myself, at best I am agnostic. But I do believe that faith is an integral part of the human experience. Faith and hope are inextricably tied together, even if they don't both show up to every family dinner, to strain a metaphor.
I may not have faith in a god or gods, but I find that sometimes I have faith in my fellow man. I hope the goodness of humanity will prevail. In much smaller terms, I have faith in my friends; I know that they will have my back when I need it. Every time I take a risk, I have at least a little faith that I'll be okay at the end, or at least that I can pick myself back up.
Humans rely on faith for a lot of things, and in my opinion, that doesn't have to look like God.
UU is diet religion, if it were a food it would be gluten free low fat artificial sweetener rice based frozen desert treat. If you are raised in UU tradition you think Jesus is the word people say when something heavy falls on their foot.
I kid I kid, they are a decent enough group. Do a lot of charity and give older atheists an activity.
People with faith definitely have quite a different world view to me but I doubt that leads to a happier life. Christians might find satisfaction in following Jesus and hoping for heaven, but I can do the same by finding a fun hobby. I could never find meaning in what comes down to old myths and legends, so instead of hoping for a good afterlife, I can just do something meaningful now.
I doubt that hoping for a good afterlife is all that happy of a life, in fact I have seen it lead to dissatisfaction on people leaving a religion beleaving that they might have wasted a good chunk of their life. All research I am aware of points to happened being determined by biology and shows that doing something provides much more satisfaction then hoping you're right.
If someone doubts their faith it can result in a lot of misery because of the sunk-costs fallicy, being terrified that if the religion is wrong they have spent a lot of their life chasing a fairy tale.
You mean other than religious people looking shocked when I tell them there is no God?
It doesn't.
I put my faith in myself and those who have proven they are worthy of me putting it in them as well.. Faith in anyone is a risk, faith in anything is a risk. I don't believe in a higher power, though I did once.
the only consequence in my life to not following religion is my religious friends and family, including my biological parents, disowning and cutting me out of their lives as quickly as they could.
But as a result, after years of healing, I am able to love my most wonderful partner, work at an amazing lgbt nightclub, and I dont have to spend an hour pretending I can commune with some otherworldly being.
Not having religion freed me from gender expectations, so I can live my life being a person instead of having to uphold toxic masculine character traits.
The caliber of people I meet are higher, as they are also folks going against the grain that is so heavily inscribed into the culture of the States. They tend to be better educated, and thus more capable of making decisions based in critical thinking rather than conspiracies or unbased "faith"
Overall, all that matters in this cruel world are the connections we make and the experiences we have. I simply prefer the connections and experiences that religion pretends are immoral.
so etymologically speaking, faith doesnt come from any religious source. It's just a word that's meant trust, belief, loyalty.
Careful, this thread will likely be a flamewar mindfield.
When I was a believer, it was so comforting to be able to wash away (or at least calm) my fears, worries, stressors and other anxieties by knowing that there was ultimately a place beyond this one where everything would be perfect, and no matter what happened here, it happened for a divine reason that truly mattered. "Give it up to God" as they say.
Now I have to have real, present, in the here-and-now coping strategies (and otherwise). It's also harder to meet good people and keep a community together if you don't live in a populated area.
Freedom of thought freedom of self and a set of morals that place the well-being and happiness of others as a top priority.
Occasionally find myself envying people with faith and wonder how my life is different than theirs.
The thing is, there's nothing stopping you from having faith. But do keep in mind that you want to have faith in something that is not shitty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gongthis one seems nice. Promotes meditation, physical exercise, as well as peaceful civil involvement in society helping others and doing good, which will help you reach spiritual enlightenment.
So while I personally like and prefer having a yawning void where some other people have faith, I generally recommend this religion to people who prefer having faith. If this one isn't to your liking, perhaps research what other non-shitty options are there.
And as a general pro tip when going with the faith option: please, no fanaticism.
Edit: I've read some more on this, and this religion has some shitty postulations too. Well, keep looking out.
Pretty sure Falun Gong is a cult last I remember.
Well, it has been outlawed by China's government since they didn't like that the religion actively promoted civil political engagement and simply doing good.
The main difference between a cult and a religion is that the cult's founder isn't dead yet. Falun Gong's founder is Li Hongzhi, who is alive but is around 72 years old so it'll probably make the transition to religion relatively soon.
I mean I have very negative views towards both concepts sooo ;p
For me, it was kind of like taking off a pair of sunglasses you forgot you were wearing. Faith tends to put a tint on everything that after a while just becomes normal until you take off the glasses and see what the world actually looks like and you realize the sky IS blue and the grass IS green.
I was born into a religious family and on the outskirts of any serious involvement with a church...I never really "felt" anything as a kid or ever later despite summer camps and bible school, so it was just this weekly burden and this unnecessary layer of thought to wade through in everything I did, so when I started working my way out of religion it was a massive weight off my shoulders.
I still consciously do good where I can, still give to others in need, etc...I still try to be as kind and empathetic to people as I can regardless of their beliefs, but now with the knowledge that I'm doing it just because it's what I believe is right to do, not because it's tied to a rule book.
The amazing part for me was rereading the Bible with no one there to tell me "well you see that passage really means ___". It is a totally different book that way. All my favorite stories growing up had this edge
I have a lot more free time than I otherwise would.
The biggest thing I’ve noticed is not having a large community to feel a part of. Those I know who are active in church communities tend to have a more active social life. I have close friends for sure, but I do miss that sense of greater community and cause.
The only other thing I feel acutely is the sense of being all on my own and the decider of my own destiny. There’s no leaning on faith as a crutch during tough times.
This is literally the only thing I miss, having gone from very religious to very not. There just aren't really comparable alternatives that make socializing so easy.
IDGAF. Seriously, the only time I even talk about religion is when I'm super high and one of my christian friends wants to annoy me. But it's all in good spirits, we have friendly arguments. I never really feel like I lack anything just because I don't have a faith. It might be because I never really had it in the first place. I grew up in a household where no one really cared about these things. My parents are Hindu, but when I told them (around the age 9-10) that I can't believe in this stuff, they were fine with it. Unlike many in the comments, I've never really met anyone who was directly hostile/weird towards me just because I'm an atheist.
Most people with faith don't think about their faith most of the time. Atleast this is the case with the people I know.
How does not having three butts effect your life?
I am a Christian, and was raised that way. I'm going to be thorough in my explanation, since the quality of the other answers aren't all that great, and hopefully at least something here will answer your question.
I attend church on Sundays and listen to a pastor talk about the bible and how to improve myself morally. This is a hit or miss, as far as both helpfulness and enjoyment goes. Every week, I go to "life group", which involves discussing the bible, and hanging out with, a small group of friends. I've gotten to know them well over time and I always enjoy meeting. I try to have a personal quiet time each morning where I read the bible and pray a bit, it's relaxing.
Generally, a faithful Christian will tell you that the Holy Spirit makes them want to do good things. Typically, when someone gets "saved", they suddenly have a much easier time being kind and loving others.
The goal of Christianity, as far as I am concerned, is primarily to convert others and to grow my own faith/virtues. I want to form strong relationships with fellow christians so that we can encourage each other to do good things and discourage bad things. I want to form strong relationships with non-christians because I [1] genuinely care about them (see: holy spirit) and [2] to convert them.
The act of being and becoming a Christian is supposed to be entirely voluntary. I do not feel as though I am a slave to some rulebook. I chose my own beliefs, and it is easy for me to follow the moral principles which I think are right. I hold some beliefs which are counter to what most other christians believe, but I have received minimal pushback for these beliefs from the community I have chosen. (pro-lgbt, sex-positive, annihilationism).
I choose to surround myself with a community of other christians which I can always rely on. It is pretty easy to make friends in the churches which I have attended. I'm in college, and it was easy for me to get multiple strong friend groups just by joining organizations at my school.
Hope you have a wonderful day. If you want to ask more questions you are welcome.
Hate to be that guy (What am I saying? I love being that guy!) but: affect*
I love that guy, too!
I don't handle loss well. To religious people it's temporary because they believe they'll reconnect in the afterlife. To me it's permanent and I haven't found a good way to cope yet.
For me, that’s fine. Never cared much about death. They’re done suffering, at least. It’s the suffering I can’t stand. But I wouldn’t want to believe in anything that would make me be okay with/cope more with/be less mad about people suffering. I want to stay mad about suffering and do something about it.
When I'm feeling sad about the people I've lost over the years, I like to ponder the vast gulf of time and possibility that lies ahead. The human mind is probably not as complicated and unique as we like to think, so perhaps someday there'll be an ancestor simulation of some sort in which we get to meet again.
Your username is quite suited to this mindset so hopefully it helps. :)
A similar thought down that line has helped a little. If space and time are infinite, then who's to say that anyone is ever truly gone. Their number just needs to come up again.
To put it in mathematical terms, people are subject to Poincaré recurrence given enough time and space.
It's kind of hard for me to describe since it's just normal for me. I guess think about all the times you're not actively thinking about what God thinks about this or that, or you're not actively talking to him, or whatever, and then just imagine that expanding to fill all your time.
As someone who left religion, but has a pretty good memory of what it was like, didn't really make any big difference in my life, other than getting my Sundays actually free.
This is a very open-ended question. I think most people view faith as a spiritual thing. Having faith in a god or gods, but if you believe in something strongly enough, it’s possible you have faith in that.
Gravity is kind of a stupid example, I’m going to use it anyway. If you have faith in the laws of gravity that means you genuinely believe and respect the laws of gravity.
Having faith in God is great. Everyone can. I suggest going to an iUPC church and see what it’s all about.
This is unrelated by who is your favorite candidate if Trump is unable to run?
Pretty well, it lets me do things Jesus frowns upon and actually enjoy my life instead of being a spiritual slave to a human invention.
I can't think of anything I do that Jesus would frown upon. Leviticus? Yeah, I eat shellfish and the like, so probably he'd frown, but I think the main complaint from Jesus would be that I haven't given up all my worldly goods and helped the sick and poor enough -- and I don't think he'd be all that mad, regardless. It's not like I'm trying to make profits off money-changing in front of the temple.
I agree, I don't need some 2000 year old book to dictate how I live my life.
I will live my life on my own terms and if someone has a problem, they can respectfully leave my life.
Doesn’t doing all of the things you want to do still make you a slave, spiritual or otherwise, to a human invention? Your desires are created by yourself or others.
That’s not what being a slave means, at all, so no.
It doesn't. I don't think about it at all, honestly. Faith doesn't play a role in my life.
If anything, I feel it gives clarity to be aware that there's no higher being, and secure app inherent meaning or purpose with life.
Shit happens for no particular reason, and not because of fate or karma or whatnot.
Good stuff happens because of skill, hard work, and fortunate circumstances.
Actions have consequences. Not understanding this, or blaming some religious aspect, is stupid.
You can always pretend you have an imaginary friend to talk to and that they will make everything better. The only difference is that everyone claims they have the same imaginary friend. That club is always accepting new members.
I'm a full-blown atheist. My dad died a couple of years ago and I "talk" to him frequently simply because I'm accustomed to doing it and it's a nice thing to imagine. I know full well that there's no magical way he's still around and listening to me, but humans gonna human and there's nothing wrong with having quirks like that.
I recall reading a study a long time back where researchers put people in fMRI machines to monitor their pattern of brain activity and then asked them to consider some kind of ethical question. Some of the subjects were told to talk to an attendant who was physically present, some were told to talk to themselves about it, and some were told to talk to whatever deity they believed in about it. The brain activity patterns for talking to someone physically present were different from the brain activity patterns for talking to oneself, but the activity patterns for talking to oneself and talking to God were identical. It was a neat result.
Edit: It's not exactly as I remembered it, but given how human memory works I bet this is the article I was thinking of.
I just talk to my animals. Good enough.
I have an intern. Whenever I am confused or angry about something at work, which is often, I just talk to him. Something isn't working that should be, explain it to him. Demonstrate how I am right and the tech is somehow wrong. In the process I usually find the solution.
He technically doesn't report to me he reports to the general manager. I have told the general manager on multiple occasions that he is to please do whatever it takes to keep him here because production would grind to a halt.
Get an intern.
And their imaginary friend demands money and hatred of others.
To be fair, most peoples' imaginary friends happen to hate all the same people that they do.
I can’t imagine going through life thinking that everything I love and/or desire will send me to hell or whatever. Imagine living in fear because you think someone is watching and judging you. No thanks.
I don’t see any advantage to having any kind of religious faith. Seems like it just limits your options and gives you nothing in return.
Spoiler alert: most people don't really have faith, especially the ones screaming at you loudly how much they have it.
When you realize that, you'll see that people are a lot more similar across all religions - authentic/thinking people from any background at all on one side, vs. those who merely "inherit" their beliefs without every really challenging them at all on the other.
Right now there are many people leaving a religion and going to atheism so much like lemmy/kbin it has that "early-generation" ring to it, but give it a few hundred years and dumb people who inherit it will just as dumbly smash others over the head with that non-religion as people have for countless millennia with past religions.
My advice: KEEP QUESTIONING! If you happened to come from a Christian or Muslim background, there is 1 Thessalonians 5:21 that literally commands that, therefore asking questions is in no way contradictory to whatever "faith" means - and anyway how could someone have that if they did not even know what it meant?
I agree, I think that a lot of people who are raised that way are afraid to question. Hell is a pretty terrifying consequence for those who believe there's even a possibility that it's true. So I think a lot of them are trying to go through the motions just to rest assured that if they call themselves Christians and followed certain rituals that they're safe.
Deciding I didn't believe in hell was the first step and the rest of my faith quickly unraveled after that.
What's really weird - and I hope you take some comfort in this rather than be offended - is that you stand with Jesus in thinking that. I know, extremely ironic right?! :-P
"Do not heap heavy burdens upon others without offering to lift a finger to help them...", "Pay the worker their due wages, immediately not waiting until some other day...", "Consider the poor and alien among you as one of your own...", a lot of Christians would be shocked, Shocked I tell you, SHOCKED (well, they shouldn't be all that shocked) to find out what lays hidden in that B-I-B-L-E that so many claim to cherish.
Like somehow the church-going, cis-het family-man with 2.3 kids and a picket fence Obama is the Spawn of Satan while the oh-so-pious Donald tRump who shits on gold toilets and doesn't even drive his own car in NYC but instead flies above the common man on a heli is "God's Man", as well as a "true man of the people", "he gets us"? (to be clear: by "us" I mean "them") Uh... nope. The Bible has a few things to say about False Doctrine as well... flee from it!
So like, even if you believed in hell, and in fact all the more so if you do, then that's all the more reason to not be a bigoted asshole, not less!
Jesus was okay with honest sinners - but the ones he HATED the most (in fact, the ONLY ones He hated), with an absolute PASSION even, where the Karens of His day, aka the "super-Christians" of the time, loudmouthed bigots who literally killed Him b/c he kept trying to like feed the poor and shit, claiming that they were just as good as the Religious Leaders (and in fact way better).
There is some sunk costs fallicy involved here, with people being terrified of having wasted part their life in addition to wanting to stay out of Hell.
Be aware that most of what you see as happiness and comfort is actually just performative - they see that everyone around them is “happy” and their minister tells them if they follow the rules they will be happy. So they don’t want anyone to know how imperfect their lives are, so they pretend they are happy, and say all the right words and jump through all the right hoops.
Then you dig deeper and find that all their kids had kids out of wedlock, one is being abused by their spouse and is cheating on them, one disavowed any responsibility for their second kid they had with a second person who they weren’t married to…
You get the idea.
It isn’t all a front. The truth is that some religious communities do provide community to people who otherwise would be alone. But they are just groups of people with a shared hobby, not some kind of magic.
I grew up in a superficially religious household. This is spot on… it wasn’t a bad childhood by any means but soooo many things that deserved critical thinking or just accepting the pain of the situation were handed over to The Almighty. There are probably some decent coping skills buried in that level of faith but I don’t personally think it’s worth the cost.
I feel like, at their core, most religions boil down to two things, for most people:
Personally, I prefer to define my own purpose, live a more "dynamic" lifestyle than is traditional, think critically, and question authority. Doesn't make me "better" than religious folks, in fact they're probably overall happier than I am. But I can't imagine living that way, regardless of whether or not I believe in a magical sky Santa who can't decide whether he loves us unconditionally or whether or not he's actually omnipotent.
There's that, but also along with it comes an enormous sense of community. It's a lot easier to find friendship and companionship when you're in a group dedicated to a purpose that meets regularly, and it's a very attractive concept and feeling, even if people don't realize it.
I can relate to this. I'm a full blown atheist, someone who just doesn't have any doubt on their beliefs for religion.
Even then, when I visit my besties Eastern Orthodox Church once in a blue moon (probably for a significant personal occassion or learning a new Holiday I never celebrated), I still feel an overall sense of community at her Church, and it helps that everyone i've met there is so nice.
I don't believe being a Christian (especially a conservative Christian) is the lifestyle for me, and I just can not bring myself to believe for a moment in it, but even with that, the vague sense of community is still there. Makes for a pleasant trip at least.
For sure, there’s no community as large and passionate as religion. BUT there are other communities that are centered around goodwill to others, living a better life…some of them even have chanting, if you feel like you’d be missing that part lol.
Those communities usually involve doing work though (volunteering, performing, teaching, etc.) while you can just show up to church and kinda pay attention, and you’re in.
It probably doesn't. You can still believe in things, just maybe not those kinds of things.
Think about dressing up and going to some service every week and being pressured to pay and extra social tax. That will make you feel better.
Being forced into it due to family will feel bad. But if nothing else is going on, people might actually enjoy it. I have seen churches in the jungle and the mass on weekends was like a social happening like a party people were looking forward to.
What do you mean? Faith in a better future? My friends? The christian god?
I miss the sense of belonging and place that comes from rituals. While I don’t want to raise my child in the church, I’m trying to find ways to include ritual and ceremony in our lives. For example, I don’t want to pray before meals, so when we have a family meal I light a ceramic oil lamp to represent our time together.
I have an atheist Jewish friend. Me and him were talking and he mentioned really missing Friday night dinners with his family. As we were talking he came to the conclusion that I wanted him to get to. There was zero reason why he couldn't still have Friday night dinners with his family. Just like there is zero reason why I can't have a Christmas tree. He and his wife and children can all dress nice, sing a song or two, and have a big meal once a week.
That's the great thing. There is no one keeping score. If you miss something about your religious background you can still have it. You aren't going to lose atheist points. Especially for harmless family community stuff.
This resonated with me. Community and ritual without the religion
I know what you mean. I saved this blessing off years ago. I don’t remember where I got it, otherwise I’d attribute it to its author. It’s a great way to share that moment of reflection that prayer can provide without the actual religious aspect.
Love it! May have to embroider this for the dining room wall.
I can't prove it but I bet there is some value of spending a moment before eating being grateful for food. Acknowledge the person who made it and paid for it and the people you are with enjoying it.
I think you’re actually looking for a different question to ask - “what do people with faith have that I currently do not?”
For me, personally, I found it to be a sense of purpose. In reality, life has no inherent meaning; we reproduce and hope to pass on our genes before we die. That is the one common denominator across all life on Earth. Faith tends to be an easy answer for giving purpose because you now live for God/Jesus/Yahweh/Allah/etc, and have guidelines for what one should strive to have in life. It’s an easy way to avoid having to face such a thing and I honestly don’t blame people for it - take away all the human elements of it and life is just hard, boring, and meaningless. Faith gives an answer for everything and provides a guide on how one should life live, for better or worse.
However, there’s an upside I don’t think people realize in realizing that life has no inherent meaning: you get to decide what is meaningful in your life. You get to choose the people who you want to care about in your life, what you want to aspire to be, what you think is worth living for… you get to find and create your own purpose, rather than an external influence telling you how to do so. It’s not easy doing that, and it will be a struggle… but if you’re struggling towards something more in life, whatever that may be… then that’s a beautiful thing to strive towards.
My life has meaning, no worries there! My family, my hobbies, making art, meeting people, eating and drinking, and sometines just being a nice/good person knowing that another human being might be slightly better off brings meaning to my life too.
For me religion is the easy and lazy way out instead of thinking about just that, what is moral (what is good and bad) and how should I live my life, as I'm the only one taking the decisions instead of going to daddy god for everything.
Living in fear of going to hell is another thing I don't need to think about too lol.
It can be a touch alienating; there's a swath of rituals you're now not a part of, either because you're actively excluded or because you just no longer fit there (talking about church events and the like).
Conversations change just a little bit too--in the same way monotheists look at polytheists funny when they invoke more than one god, atheists wind up looking at any theist in the same fashion. By that token, when people realize you're atheist, they look at you as a bit damaged--my bestie's cousin blurted out "tf is wrong with you?" when I admitted I was atheist, for instance. In the US it only takes a look at some states' laws on eligibility for public office to see that for some, the only thing worse than having a different faith is having none at all.
It can also be kind of disorienting; you spend quite a bit of time recalibrating your moral framework--what you consider right/wrong and why you take those positions. In this regard, it can be a bit draining too, dedicating so much of the processor sitting on your neck to a kind of reconfiguration.
Lastly and perhaps the worst drawback is how limiting it can feel: when there's no longer a higher power to feel guarded by, you're left with the realization that there's just your own little mortal self and it's depressing lack of influence.
But ultimately, I've found it kind of rewarding: ditching the need for a creator figure (and later, the concept of an afterlife altogether) has freed me of that dissonance that occurs when injustices or random tragedies occur. When you no longer lean on the idea that there must be an inherently just or attentive higher power, those bad things become a little less nerve-wracking.
And while I lose a some rituals and venues through which to connect with others, it's a drop in the ocean compared to what's still out there.
And that powerlessness we're left behind with eases when we recognize there's other kinds of power that come through community (nebulous as that concept feels right now).
I've never envied those with faith. I feel freedom and have comfort in knowing that I am a good person with good morals without being threatened by some mysterious being that allows such disgusting hatred to exist in their creation.
Exactly my take as well. Very well said.
To be honest, not a whole lot is different these days for me. I was raised to believe in God, Heaven, eventually Hell, and the importance of honoring the family tradition of going to Church every single Christmas and Easter, their occasions that absolutely cannot be missed.
I will note that I deconverted fully around 14 years old, ironically during the Christmas Eve service and my single biggest fear for a couple of years was my family finding out and their reaction.
Things have gotten better since then, and thankfully, my atheism is (mostly) accepted by my family these days, so all's well.
Obligatory comment: My sunday's are actually free now, so time for some video games.
Well it depends on what you mean. When I am being nice I define faith as "what I fear is not true". I for example have faith in human potential.
If however you mean the typical meaning of the term I don't envy them at all. I was born into a god-fearing home and I know exactly what horrorshow I left for good.
Most of us have a faith, for many that faith is not in any hokey old religion but in the things we have come to trust.
Can one have 'faith' that science is the correct path? I think so, I wouldn't call it faith like believing your actions are controlled by a magic ghost but I think it could still fit the word be believing in the ability of something to persevere even if it isn't immediately successful.
To show a quotation from an old TV show might highlight my point, "
OLD MAN 1: So much for your tolerant open-minded Starfleet ideals.
JANEWAY: There's a difference between respecting the spiritual beliefs of other cultures and embracing them myself.
OLD MAN 1: Fine. Don't embrace a thing. It's all the same to us. Go on back to your ship and play with your molecular microscanner.
OLD WOMAN: You've tried all that already, but it didn't work, did it. Kes didn't get better.
JANEWAY: No, she didn't.
OLD WOMAN: Why not?
JANEWAY: The Doctor couldn't explain it.
OLD WOMAN: So it's inexplicable. A miraculous non-recovery.
JANEWAY: We haven't found the reason yet.
OLD WOMAN: But of course you will. You'll find all the answers eventually, with enough time and study, and the right sort of tools. That's what you believe isn't it as a scientist?
OLD MAN 1: Be honest.
JANEWAY: Yes, that's what I've always believed.
OLD MAN 2: Even when her science fails right before her eyes she still has full confidence in it. Now there's a leap of faith.
OLD WOMAN: Unconditional trust. Now that's promising.
"
Very good take and excellent quote.
Everyone occasionally notices that they'd prefer a comfortable lie over a difficult truth. You need to choose which you value more: truth or comfort. It's not an easy question.
I still fool myself, but not in this particular way. It means mostly that I can't use "the gods did it" as an excuse. I find other excuses.
I have never strongly identified as any particular religion, so if that is where you're coming from this answer might not be helpful.
My parents both came from religious backgrounds, but they decided not to force me into any particular faith. When I was about 8, I started attending a Unitarian Universalist church, which certainly has religious tones but is very specific about accepting all kinds of faiths, choosing instead to focus on community.
As a result, I've been exposed to many different kinds of faith. I don't tend to believe any creation myths or creators myself, at best I am agnostic. But I do believe that faith is an integral part of the human experience. Faith and hope are inextricably tied together, even if they don't both show up to every family dinner, to strain a metaphor.
I may not have faith in a god or gods, but I find that sometimes I have faith in my fellow man. I hope the goodness of humanity will prevail. In much smaller terms, I have faith in my friends; I know that they will have my back when I need it. Every time I take a risk, I have at least a little faith that I'll be okay at the end, or at least that I can pick myself back up.
Humans rely on faith for a lot of things, and in my opinion, that doesn't have to look like God.
UU is diet religion, if it were a food it would be gluten free low fat artificial sweetener rice based frozen desert treat. If you are raised in UU tradition you think Jesus is the word people say when something heavy falls on their foot.
I kid I kid, they are a decent enough group. Do a lot of charity and give older atheists an activity.
People with faith definitely have quite a different world view to me but I doubt that leads to a happier life. Christians might find satisfaction in following Jesus and hoping for heaven, but I can do the same by finding a fun hobby. I could never find meaning in what comes down to old myths and legends, so instead of hoping for a good afterlife, I can just do something meaningful now.
I doubt that hoping for a good afterlife is all that happy of a life, in fact I have seen it lead to dissatisfaction on people leaving a religion beleaving that they might have wasted a good chunk of their life. All research I am aware of points to happened being determined by biology and shows that doing something provides much more satisfaction then hoping you're right.
If someone doubts their faith it can result in a lot of misery because of the sunk-costs fallicy, being terrified that if the religion is wrong they have spent a lot of their life chasing a fairy tale.
You mean other than religious people looking shocked when I tell them there is no God?
It doesn't.
I put my faith in myself and those who have proven they are worthy of me putting it in them as well.. Faith in anyone is a risk, faith in anything is a risk. I don't believe in a higher power, though I did once.
the only consequence in my life to not following religion is my religious friends and family, including my biological parents, disowning and cutting me out of their lives as quickly as they could.
But as a result, after years of healing, I am able to love my most wonderful partner, work at an amazing lgbt nightclub, and I dont have to spend an hour pretending I can commune with some otherworldly being.
Not having religion freed me from gender expectations, so I can live my life being a person instead of having to uphold toxic masculine character traits.
The caliber of people I meet are higher, as they are also folks going against the grain that is so heavily inscribed into the culture of the States. They tend to be better educated, and thus more capable of making decisions based in critical thinking rather than conspiracies or unbased "faith"
Overall, all that matters in this cruel world are the connections we make and the experiences we have. I simply prefer the connections and experiences that religion pretends are immoral.
so etymologically speaking, faith doesnt come from any religious source. It's just a word that's meant trust, belief, loyalty.
Careful, this thread will likely be a flamewar mindfield.
When I was a believer, it was so comforting to be able to wash away (or at least calm) my fears, worries, stressors and other anxieties by knowing that there was ultimately a place beyond this one where everything would be perfect, and no matter what happened here, it happened for a divine reason that truly mattered. "Give it up to God" as they say.
Now I have to have real, present, in the here-and-now coping strategies (and otherwise). It's also harder to meet good people and keep a community together if you don't live in a populated area.
Freedom of thought freedom of self and a set of morals that place the well-being and happiness of others as a top priority.
The thing is, there's nothing stopping you from having faith. But do keep in mind that you want to have faith in something that is not shitty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong
this one seems nice. Promotes meditation, physical exercise, as well as peaceful civil involvement in society helping others and doing good, which will help you reach spiritual enlightenment.So while I personally like and prefer having a yawning void where some other people have faith,
I generally recommend this religion to people who prefer having faith. If this one isn't to your liking,perhaps research what other non-shitty options are there.And as a general pro tip when going with the faith option: please, no fanaticism.
Edit: I've read some more on this, and this religion has some shitty postulations too. Well, keep looking out.
Pretty sure Falun Gong is a cult last I remember.
Well, it has been outlawed by China's government since they didn't like that the religion actively promoted civil political engagement and simply doing good.
The main difference between a cult and a religion is that the cult's founder isn't dead yet. Falun Gong's founder is Li Hongzhi, who is alive but is around 72 years old so it'll probably make the transition to religion relatively soon.
I mean I have very negative views towards both concepts sooo ;p
For me, it was kind of like taking off a pair of sunglasses you forgot you were wearing. Faith tends to put a tint on everything that after a while just becomes normal until you take off the glasses and see what the world actually looks like and you realize the sky IS blue and the grass IS green.
I was born into a religious family and on the outskirts of any serious involvement with a church...I never really "felt" anything as a kid or ever later despite summer camps and bible school, so it was just this weekly burden and this unnecessary layer of thought to wade through in everything I did, so when I started working my way out of religion it was a massive weight off my shoulders.
I still consciously do good where I can, still give to others in need, etc...I still try to be as kind and empathetic to people as I can regardless of their beliefs, but now with the knowledge that I'm doing it just because it's what I believe is right to do, not because it's tied to a rule book.
The amazing part for me was rereading the Bible with no one there to tell me "well you see that passage really means ___". It is a totally different book that way. All my favorite stories growing up had this edge
I have a lot more free time than I otherwise would.
The biggest thing I’ve noticed is not having a large community to feel a part of. Those I know who are active in church communities tend to have a more active social life. I have close friends for sure, but I do miss that sense of greater community and cause.
The only other thing I feel acutely is the sense of being all on my own and the decider of my own destiny. There’s no leaning on faith as a crutch during tough times.
This is literally the only thing I miss, having gone from very religious to very not. There just aren't really comparable alternatives that make socializing so easy.
IDGAF. Seriously, the only time I even talk about religion is when I'm super high and one of my christian friends wants to annoy me. But it's all in good spirits, we have friendly arguments. I never really feel like I lack anything just because I don't have a faith. It might be because I never really had it in the first place. I grew up in a household where no one really cared about these things. My parents are Hindu, but when I told them (around the age 9-10) that I can't believe in this stuff, they were fine with it. Unlike many in the comments, I've never really met anyone who was directly hostile/weird towards me just because I'm an atheist.
Most people with faith don't think about their faith most of the time. Atleast this is the case with the people I know.
How does not having three butts effect your life?
I am a Christian, and was raised that way. I'm going to be thorough in my explanation, since the quality of the other answers aren't all that great, and hopefully at least something here will answer your question.
I attend church on Sundays and listen to a pastor talk about the bible and how to improve myself morally. This is a hit or miss, as far as both helpfulness and enjoyment goes. Every week, I go to "life group", which involves discussing the bible, and hanging out with, a small group of friends. I've gotten to know them well over time and I always enjoy meeting. I try to have a personal quiet time each morning where I read the bible and pray a bit, it's relaxing.
Generally, a faithful Christian will tell you that the Holy Spirit makes them want to do good things. Typically, when someone gets "saved", they suddenly have a much easier time being kind and loving others.
The goal of Christianity, as far as I am concerned, is primarily to convert others and to grow my own faith/virtues. I want to form strong relationships with fellow christians so that we can encourage each other to do good things and discourage bad things. I want to form strong relationships with non-christians because I [1] genuinely care about them (see: holy spirit) and [2] to convert them.
The act of being and becoming a Christian is supposed to be entirely voluntary. I do not feel as though I am a slave to some rulebook. I chose my own beliefs, and it is easy for me to follow the moral principles which I think are right. I hold some beliefs which are counter to what most other christians believe, but I have received minimal pushback for these beliefs from the community I have chosen. (pro-lgbt, sex-positive, annihilationism).
I choose to surround myself with a community of other christians which I can always rely on. It is pretty easy to make friends in the churches which I have attended. I'm in college, and it was easy for me to get multiple strong friend groups just by joining organizations at my school.
Hope you have a wonderful day. If you want to ask more questions you are welcome.
Hate to be that guy (What am I saying? I love being that guy!) but: affect*
I love that guy, too!
I don't handle loss well. To religious people it's temporary because they believe they'll reconnect in the afterlife. To me it's permanent and I haven't found a good way to cope yet.
For me, that’s fine. Never cared much about death. They’re done suffering, at least. It’s the suffering I can’t stand. But I wouldn’t want to believe in anything that would make me be okay with/cope more with/be less mad about people suffering. I want to stay mad about suffering and do something about it.
When I'm feeling sad about the people I've lost over the years, I like to ponder the vast gulf of time and possibility that lies ahead. The human mind is probably not as complicated and unique as we like to think, so perhaps someday there'll be an ancestor simulation of some sort in which we get to meet again.
Your username is quite suited to this mindset so hopefully it helps. :)
A similar thought down that line has helped a little. If space and time are infinite, then who's to say that anyone is ever truly gone. Their number just needs to come up again.
To put it in mathematical terms, people are subject to Poincaré recurrence given enough time and space.
It's kind of hard for me to describe since it's just normal for me. I guess think about all the times you're not actively thinking about what God thinks about this or that, or you're not actively talking to him, or whatever, and then just imagine that expanding to fill all your time.
As someone who left religion, but has a pretty good memory of what it was like, didn't really make any big difference in my life, other than getting my Sundays actually free.
This is a very open-ended question. I think most people view faith as a spiritual thing. Having faith in a god or gods, but if you believe in something strongly enough, it’s possible you have faith in that.
Gravity is kind of a stupid example, I’m going to use it anyway. If you have faith in the laws of gravity that means you genuinely believe and respect the laws of gravity.
Having faith in God is great. Everyone can. I suggest going to an iUPC church and see what it’s all about.
This is unrelated by who is your favorite candidate if Trump is unable to run?
Sorry for hijacking the thread.