Hamas official says group would lay down its arms if an independent Palestinian state is established
apnews.com
A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.
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I would personally reject this deal.
The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.
Instead, they deserve to live under the genocidal tyranny of Israel. Clearly that's the much better choice.
Why do all of you message me specifically to use the same dishonest bad faith debate tactics?
You said the thing they're responding to. What are they gonna do, shout their reply down a well? Also, it's not bad faith just because you disagree with it or don't understand it; there has to be some intent to deceive or mislead.
After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.
The thing is: the Israelis don't get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.
Israel is preventing this self determination by enforcing the weapons blockade on Gaza. All Israel has to do is nothing. Just stop actively preventing these people from being armed, and the human spirit will do the rest.
And just to be clear, I do NOT mean “CIA should go train some paramilitary to take down Hamas”.
Instead I mean “This is a gun store. Any adult may come here and trade money for a gun. That gun is now yours to do with as you see fit. You can hang it on your wall. You can use it to make sandwiches. You can shoot cans in an alley. Whatever. It’s your gun.”
Literally just let these people exercise their rights.
Americans, man.
I dunno the question but the answer is more guns B-)
Israel is preventing this because, in practice, most people don't want to die in a civil war. This would just lead to better-equipped terrorists killing even more Jews.
They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.
I mean yeah, but why can't we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?
The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren't actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.
Because they almost certainly aren't real accounts.
Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.
Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.
Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?
Oh, it's just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I'm that case I don't think you're being vacuous.
I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.
Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can't differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.
The level of irony here is quite amusing. You're complaining that you're being accused of things you aren't by saying that I'm accusing you of things I didn't.
You are in my inbox defending the accounts I mentioned.
Must be a grand conspiracy right?
I think more intelligence would be on display in these accounts if the conspiracy was grand.
Hey it's you again... Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope
Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren't actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.
Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain't no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.
Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I'd prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced... Otherwise it's boring.
I wouldn't accept payment for this, I have a real job that's actually productive and makes peoples' lives better in tangible ways. That's enough for me. This is just bonus.
Maybe that's just a "leftist" attitude that you can't comprehend.
Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don't know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.
The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the 'disengagement' in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of 'dual-use' Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.
Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress
The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy
What specifically in this wall of text is a direct response to what I said?
All you said was complete stupidity. 19 years of rule under Hamas only produced terrorist tunnels?
All of that is a direct response to 30+ years of Israeli genocide.
Building tunnels as the sole piece of infrastructure for your people is the sole response to a 30 year genocide?
I don't think that is true, and I don't believe you think that is true either. It sounded good when you said it though, and I'm sure it felt even better.
I wasn't the one who said that tunnels were the only thing they have done, that was literally you. But it's also irrelevant because I wouldn't expect any infrastructure works to be prioritised when a small country is under attack.
When the IRA demanded their land back, we were allowed to agree with their cause of no occupation without saying that their tactics of bombing trains was a good thing.
When the LTTE violently attacked Sri Lanka, people were allowed to feel for the ongoing Tamil persecution, without agreeing to the murdering.
Why can't I say that Hamas is a product of its environment, caused by the pain that Israel creates while also saying that the actions of Hamas are terrible.
The money never made its way to the Palestinian people, is the point.
Where did it go?
It said a free Palestinian State not Hamas rules
An independent Palestinian state would give the Palestinian people a chance to throw off the yoke of Hamas.
I don't believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don't generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.
A lot of dead Palestinians will be on your hands if you are wrong here. The price of being wrong is too high for me to agree with you, though I wish I could.
Man, if the choice is "right-wing fuckheads in a sovereign and potentially functional state" and "right-wing fuckheads in a Bantustan that's currently being genocided by a foreign country, boosting the popularity of said right-wing fuckheads", I think the choice is obvious.
I'm not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.
If Hamas wants to prove me wrong, and responsibly lead their people, maybe their political apparatus should stop being cowards, leave their Qatari skyscraper, and return to Palestine, and prove they want the responsibility of leading a nation.
They don't want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.
Hamas doesn't have the power to carry out the genocide they want to. Israel does.
Fuck man, I'm anything but pro-Hamas. I don't think they're making this offer in good faith, and even if they were, there are certainly more resolutions to pick from. I'm just pointing out that between the current state of affairs and a bad peace, the bad peace is preferable.
So if the Hamas terrorists are in Qatar why is Israel bombing Palestine
I ask myself the same thing.
Right-wing fuck heads with weapons? You mean like israel? And you say the price of being wrong is too high for you to agree with someone.... there is no price for you!!!!! You live in comfort, not being bombed everyday. You're an armchair critic who pays not 1 ounce of a price for your dumb opinion.
The price is more dead Palestinians and Jews.
And no offense, but you aren't paying that cost either. Doesn't mean we deny the cost will be paid.
I mean there are literally almost no more Palestinians alive on Earth anymore but go off
Hamas has been given millions of dollars by Israel over the years while any other potential political group has been surpressed. Without Israel they may actually have a chance at forming alternative groups. There is already the blood of nearly 40,000 Palestinians on our hands.
You might have blood on your hands, but I don't.
Probably, but they don't deserve to live under Israel either, and one of those is much more effective at killing them all.
Two state solution has to be the way to go, after that the people can have a Palestinian Spring if they want and overthrow Hamas, but whoever comes after is likely not going to be much better. They never are.
Yes, a two state solution is the only viable option. The problem is that Palestine never agrees to any of them. They won't this time either. As far as Hamas is concerned they'll only accept it if Tel Aviv is part of the independent Palestine. They regard the whole area as Palestine.
The guy in the op is literally talking about the 1967 green line.
Depends. Does conversion to a political party imply free elections and opposition parties to exist?
No, obviously Hamas would not take a deal that is conditional upon [the UN?] removing them from power and holding elections.
Not obviously. Hence my request for clarification.
Which terror groups that took full power restored the right to vote after having already stripped their people of that right?
A terror group with full power is no longer a terror group.
So.. You concede that there are no terror orgs who have expanded the rights of the people they control?
The basis of your statement is nonsensical.
Terror organisations don't control the rights of people. (If they did, then terrorism would not be needed)
Which is why they won't be handed autonomy over Palestine.
Glad we are in agreement.
But are Hamas asking for autonomy over Palestine? Conversion to a political party doesn't necessarily imply this.
Did they not take away the Palestinian right to elections back in 2006?
If you want to argue that Hamas has liberalized in the last 19 years, or even the last 6 months, by all means make that argument, but I am growing bored of the rhetoric I am currently being given.
Which is why I asked about elections and opposition parties.
No.
No.
You are being given no rhetoric. I was asking a question.
Ahh yes. Reject the deal, continue the starvation and murder of thousands and thousands of Palestinians by Israel. Because what would be more liberating than being murdered?
I see statements like "Free Gaza from Hamas" to justify the continued genocide. It is no suprise, given that the Nazis wrote "Arbeit macht frei". "Work makes free",
Twisting genocide into claiming it to be a liberation of the people they are genociding. Now i am not sure, if you belong to these bad faith people, but if you wonder, why you are getting backlash, it is because your statement seems to be advocating for that.
Why do you automatically assume somebody who is anti-Hamas is pro-war?
Probably so you have an excuse to call people Nazis.
I won't be engaging with that nonsense. You can message again with an intent of more respectful dialog or you can be blocked.
If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should acknowledge the consequences and the context of "not taking a deal from Hamas". And these consequences are continued death and destruction. You didn't address that context. Which is why i provided the context of these kind of statements by people using these stances in bad faith.
I agree…but one thing at a time. When Palestine is free, then they can get rid of Hamas. But right now, they’re on the same team against Israel…against literal genocide. A violently oppressive fundamentalist government is obviously something to shed when you have a state to expel them from. But they’re living under the worst case scenario right now. Hamas is their only defense at the moment against genocidal colonialist state. Fighting a battle on two fronts is a recipe for complete destruction.
You mean to fight the occupation?
Haha. Some fight. Millions of people living and dying in poverty and malnourishment so they could do a mass shooting of 1,300 people. They really showed em!
They have zero chance of fighting Israel and the only proper course for Hamas is an unconditional surrender and whatever peace terms Israel will grant them. They should be lucky to get the rights due prisoners of war. Usually you have to put yourself in a uniform to get those rights.
Hamas went all in hoping that once all of the other Muslim nations saw their merry slaughter of Jews, they would happily and immediately join in and attack Israel from all sides to complete the attempted genocide. They forgot about or chose to ignore a few things:
Israel has nukes and would use them if they felt fundamentally threatened, Israel has conventionally defeated every army that has ever attacked them (if sometimes by the skin of their teeth), has made reluctant, but reliable allies out of some of their former enemies and crippled others. Hamas didn't consider that Biden would protect Israel and fully commit to it, they kept the preparations for their attack so secret that only Tehran and Moscow knew about them, but crucially not Hezbollah (which ended up being muzzled by the American carrier groups anyway) and they gave nobody the necessary heads up for the months of buildup required for a full on war, because that would have given the whole thing away. While Hamas skillfully (with Russian and Iranian help) overcame the border defenses, they wasted the element of surprise on random carnage instead of overrunning the same airfields that have since been launching thousands of sorties that are, day by day, obliterating their organization.
And so on and so forth. The entire idea was foolish from the start and had no chance of success. Not that Moscow and Tehran expected any. They just used Hamas as pawns, hoping to weaken the US with this conflict. It's the standard zero sum game that autocrats love to play so much.
This is the reality no one wants to accept. Either surrender unconditionally, or be ethnically cleansed because it's clear the rest of the world's governments don't care.
Yeah, it's clear ethnic cleansing, God of Blood, only 2.06 million of 2.10 million Gazans are left!
Yeah, and we're 7.5 months into the war. Over all of WWII, the Nazis couldn't kill all of the Jews (and everyone else they were trying to kill) in Europe. Give it time. If they're allowed to keep this up, there will be a more complete ethnic cleansing.
The Palestinian cause was already dying and it was only time before they were erased or expunged. What hamas did was revive that cause, even if you don't agree with them killing civilians (which i dont either). Most Palestinians were already living in terrible conditions and not because of hamas but because of the israel blockade of gaza. Which rendered it essentially to concentration camp.
The 1300 figure wasnt all by hamas. And from what we know so far about 300 were soliders, 300 were killed by israel themselves in the crossfire, and 300 were indeed civilians.
So far hamas has done pretty good for it self and has made some losses for israel. At the very least you can see its not a victory for israel.
Bud anyone that died in the chaos on October 7 was killed by Hamas. That's how criminal culpability works.
The blockade too was caused by Hamas and its ideological allies and predecessors. Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership. They turned every public institution into instrumentalities of international terrorism. Hamas is the enemy. It's sad they have used psychotic interpretations of Islam to convince apparently significant portions of the Gazans public that Martyrdom™ is a civic duty, like where a legitimate state might have jury service or voting, but an evil, fanatical thing, not civic at all.
By your logic, Israel's government is just as culpable: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
What a disgusting lack of knowledge of the areas history, wow
...can you be more clear about what your comment means in reference to what I said?
"tunnels to commit terrorism from" is hardly objective. Terrorism is what oppressors call fighting for one's freedom, and Israel is invading territory which is not theirs, ergo, your comment appears to be cheering from the wrong side of history. The way your comment stands, it seems to end on a different sentiment than it starts off with.
Before I engage with a blatantly Pro-Hamas statement, please first explain how Hamas is fighting for the freedom for Palestinians, including women and LGBTQ citizens.
If unable, and you refuse to revise your Pro-Hamas stance, you will immediately be blocked.
An anti Israeli (Zionist) stance isn't equal to pro Hamas.
"Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israeli occupation."
The guy was literally stating what happens during an occupation.
The victors write history
Unless you are responding under a different account, I am going to give the original commentator a chance to respond and revise his statement.
Claiming that the modern political apparatus of Palestine are mere freedom fighters is a lie, and I will not engage with it.
No, not same person.
So in other words you're a Zionist?
GREAT! /s
Every action has a equal and opposite action. Eg you attack civvies you create 'terrorists' aka Hama's
Israel created a problem that allows them to syphon money from other countries for committing genocide
I believe both Jews and Palestinians deserve to live in their homeland. If that belief causes a few bad actors supporting Hamas to call me a Zionist as a slur, so be it.
Yet your only concern has been for Isreal, the ones doing a genocide.
Excuse us if we don't believe you at all
You don't know a thing about me or my beliefs and you have zero percent interest in knowing them. Pretending to have that knowledge is your goal here.
Pretty angry and defensive take when all I did was point out the behaviour you've had in this thread
The fact that you are accusing me unprovoked of being angry at you leads me to believe your intent in this dialog is to try and make me angry.
Perhaps in your mind anger is the correct response when somebody lies and misconstrues, but you are ignoring the fact that I expect that kind of behavior out of Pro-Hamas accounts.
@WamGams @n3m37h
I bet you a nickle the DNA of Palestinians matches that of the Jews. They are the same people, except for something something.
100%
If you mean that they are human as much as the Jews are, than yes.
But the idea that Palestinians are secret Jews by genetics is something that the Palestinian people would likely reject.
Religion is fucking man made anyways
I agree, but now let's get the Israelis and Palestinians to agree.
What does it matter if they have other political motives? The world is enabling their utter annihilation, children, babies, innocent people with no political ambition. That must be stopped before we wring our hands about what they might do with freedom. They are human beings, people with lives and families, not wild rabid animals.
The world isn't enabling a Palestinian annihilation. The world is working to resolve the conflict.
You guys need to stop pretending that you are the only good people and everybody else is evil. That's part of the issue here.
True, I shouldn't say the world, just major Western powers like the US and it's allies.
I am Canadian-American and haven't met a single person who likes genocide.
Maybe you hang out with different kinds of people in different parts of the world.
I guess you haven't met the defense contrators, weapons manufacturers and politicians who are rich because of wars and genocide. I haven't personally met many of them either, average people don't associate with those types.
If genocides were good for profits, every nation beholden to capitol would be engaging in them.
That's the issue with genocides for capitalists, by definition they have an end goal and thus a theoretical point in which the profits cease.
A genocide is probably better understood as an outflow of desperation on the behalf of corporatists.
The first step toward true justice is removing the weapons blockade from Gaza. Allow the people to exercise their god-given right to be armed, and give them the chance to kill Hamas themselves. It’s a ruling junta, not a legitimate government. Palestinians haven’t consented to Hamas in decades, and Israel is keeping them disarmed (which obviously is only affecting the regular people, and not doing anything to keep Hamas from arming).
Let them arm themselves. Let them do as they will with their overlords.
Why would that go better in Palestine than in Afghanistan where the people didn't fight the terrorists even after decades of training, arming, and attempted nation-building?
Because it would be a different strategy. In Afghanistan we coddled them, acted as their trainers and support structure for two decades. Of course they weren’t going to fight when we left. We didn’t train them to fight we taught them military tactics. People fight on their own if they’re able; it’s human nature.
In Gaza what I’m proposing is to stop blockading weapons. Nothing more. It’s a violation of those people’s rights to deny them weapons.
I think an autonomous zone like we see in Syria would be a great thing.
I’m not familiar with it. What is that and why do you think it’s a good idea for Gaza?
An autonomous zone is a geographical area in which the established state has lost (whether temporarily or permanently) authority, and the people within the zone are governed through direct democracy. I believe democratic anarchism is the term most autonomous zones fall under.
I think the Palestinians, or at least Gazans could strongly benefit from this. But of course, to set something like this up, we need to get the Palestinian people food, water, weapons and radios, all things are which both Israel and Hamas are preventing the Palestinians from having.