I'm very conflicted about this whole thing. On the one hand, yeah it's kind of a scandal and people have every right to be booing him every time he touches the ball.
On the other hand, he was convicted, sentenced, did time and is now back in society apparently showing remorse. People are calling for his career to end and various wishes of death on him. Why can't he continue his life?
Are we supposed to lock up all criminals forever? Kill them? Just not allow them to follow their chosen career after getting out? Or is it just sports they shouldn't be allowed to participate in?
apparently showing remorse
He showed no remorse. He called it nonsense. He said he made mistakes as a youth. He has not even bothered to offer anything in the way of an apology.
He didn't even serve his full sentence. You can't call him reformed that way
I also saw those statements on his wiki. Also saw some about it being "the worst mistake of his life". I don't imagine he would get parole without showing remorse.
You don't imagine? Well then that proves it. He's very sorry he raped a 12-year-old girl over and over even though he's never said so in public.
He did barely a year of prison... I personally don't quite think it's enough for raping a kid, but hey that's just my opinion
It seems like a lot of criminals who "did their time" really didn't do much at all.
Compare that to a lifetime of hurt caused to the victim(s) and their families, and it just doesn't seem good enough.
Enough for what? Your sense of vengeance? I don't know, only you can tell...
Enough for rehabilitation? I don't know, but it is possible. Time needed for rehabilitation varies widely. It's quite possible the year was enough. One thing we do know is that the Netherlands is heavily in favour of rehabilitation over punishment, since rehabilitation actually forwards society
I am European and heavily against punitive justice. But I think one year of prison for a crime almost universally considered among the worst is not enough for rehabilitation, and I find this opinion validated by the lack of understanding or even remorse shown by the guy in public statements
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, but am getting downvoted because I apparently sound like a "child rape apologist".
I understand the crime is emotionally charged, but that doesn't mean anyone convicted of it should just be thrown in the oubliette.
I would like to propose “forgettamatorium” as an English translation for oubliette.
I believe people can change and I think it’s important we hold space for people to do so. However, that hinges on the person actually growing, which often starts with showing remorse. I know you implied that this guy has done so, but I haven’t seen any evidence of that.
Even the quote you posted somewhere else about it being the worst thing he’d done, or something like that? That very much sounds like a, “I’m not sorry I did it, I’m sorry I got caught” kind of statement.
Asked if van de Velde had ever expressed any remorse to him for rape, Immers [his teammate] said: “No, he doesn’t, he doesn’t explain it.”
(source)
"I have been branded as a sex monster, as a pedophile," he said. "That I am not — really not.”
(source)
If there’s an apology or some actual statement showing his remorse, I’d love to see it, but I’m skeptical that it exists. This whole controversy he’s had a huge opportunity to step up, apologize, and rebuke his prior actions. Instead, he’s faced it all with silence and a reaction of ‘I don’t want to talk about it.’ That is not the behavior of a person who acknowledges they were in the wrong, imo.
Seems like this whole debacle is because he didn't make a press tour saying to the whole wide world how remorseful he is, but the comittee said that experts determined that he was remorseful though, so we shouldn't trust the experts now?
Van de Velde has fully engaged with all requirements and has met all the stringent risk assessment thresholds, checks and due diligence. Experts have stated that there is no risk of recidivism.
Van de Velde has consistently remained transparent about the case which he refers to as the most significant misstep of his life. He deeply regrets the consequences of his actions for those involved. He has been open about the personal transformation he has undergone as a result. Since his return he has participated in major international events without incident.
The problem is that people absolutely believe that.
that doesn't mean anyone convicted of it should just be thrown in the oubliette.
Yes it does. I think having empathy is a good thing and most people deserve it. Not child rapists.
So you’re for punitive justice instead of rehabilitive justice?
For pedophiles, yes!
child rapists or pedophiles? One is a crime another is a psychiatric disorder.
Less than half of child rapists are pedophiles.
No im pretty sure all child rapists are pedophiles. I do not think the 2 ideas should be separated. You make it sound like you are cool with people being pedophiles as long as they're not a child rapist. Fucking weird.
Most child rapists are not pathologically attracted to children. It happens because of power imbalances or other factors.
You can think what you’d like but pedophelia has official DSM-5 Diagnostic criteria and there’s an entire academic body of literature behind this.
No, i just dont care about anything you're talking about. All it comes off to me as you are trying to say being a pedophile is not that bad.
Claim whatever by whomever. Nothing now can change the fact that you are pro pedophile and thats just weird.
So correcting your terminology because you are using the word pedophile to have a different meaning than what it is dictionnary defined makes me “pro-pedophile” lol.
By your definition Marriam-Webster, Wikipedia, and pretty much every psychomedical academic journal is “pro-pedophile” then.
Fuck anyone who harms children. But being attracted to children is not a choice, science has proven that. And acting like these people are all evil (even if they’ve never acted on their urges) makes then less likely to seek help because of shame, and increases the rate of children who are hurt.
It’d do a lot of help if you atleast skimmed the wikipedia page on the topic.
Wow im being down voted for being a anti-pedo. Yall are fucking weird. And sick 🤮.
No you're being downvoted for being in favor of barbaric punishments instead of rehabilitation.
Having a less cruel mindset is what allows it to go on though. Our justice system is built by predators for predators so victims are already at a disadvantage, and the fact that anyone would want consideration for the rapist only encourages others. The whole idea of being at all lenient on child rapists is crazy to me
Why do you think anything less than brutal death is "lenient"
My sister was raped as a kid, and as long as i have known pedophiles/child rapist are the worst of the worst. There is no rehabilitation for that. There should be no opps i didnt mean to go to another country and get a 12 year old drunk and rape her 3 times, then appear to the world as the best people can provide. Its just sickienng to try and normalize or be at all lenient toward such vile acts.
I agree, it seems like a small amount on the face of it.
But at the same time, I'm more inclined to trust the judgement of the prison system (at least in The Netherlands) as to whether he is ready to return to society.
It's not the prison system of the Netherlands that you should be considering, It's the legitimacy of the politicians that decided to release him. Clearly it was a political move do you believe that somebody else in his position would have been released so early?
While I agree this seems extremely small. The netherlands is not the US. The specifics of court cases are not made public. We have no idea about them. It might be a very ambiguous case that barely fit the definition of rape or whatever.
Not trying to defend rape or rapists, but we may need more context before we can judge the length of a sentence.
Edit: I just read a less opinionated in depth article on him, and from the details I see, man he fucked up bad, in my opinion he deserved more than 13 months. He got sentenced to 4 years at first but that got cut short.
It's a good thing the court of public opinion still has a voice and doesn't approve of child rapists quite so heartily as the Dutch government. What "time" did he do - like 11months? And he was never remorseful in the slightest. If his only real punishment is going to be him and his country getting booed by the world at the Olympics, I'm happy there's at least that.
did time and is now back in society apparently showing remorse.
Nope, neither of those.
What do you mean? He served 13 months and got out on parole. He's publicly expressed remorse, but that isn't exactly conclusive. I assume there would have been some genuine remorse inside, otherwise there would be no parole.
My point is, if you stop anyone who has been to jail returning to normal society at all, then why let them out at all? You might as well just put every criminal in jail for life, or just kill them straight away.
You might as well just put every criminal in jail for life, or just kill them straight away.
Just the child rapists is fine with me. There's no reforming that.
“I can’t reverse it, so I have to carry the consequences. It’s the biggest mistake of my life.”
Source: The article linked in the OP
If that's not remorse, I don't know what is.
Never apologiest and he only ever talks about how it is bad for him. Remorse it is not.
Remorse: “I am sorry for what I did and the impact it had on the victim. I made stupid choices that hurt another person, and while I can never take that back, I will seek to do better so no one needs to suffer from my actions again.”
Not sorry you did it, just sorry you got caught: “I can’t reverse it, so I have to carry the consequences. It’s the biggest mistake of my life.”
On the other hand, he was convicted, sentenced, did time and is now back in society apparently showing remorse.
He hardly did any time at all. Frankly you do more time for a parking ticket. Also when did he show remorse like whenever has he ever shown any remorse at all?
he can continue his life, but get the fuck out of public positions like this if youre a fucking pedo rapist
How about "not put them representing your country, where other people might understand that as an endorsement as see him as a role model".
There is shades of grey between "killing him" and "send him to the Olympics".
I'm not conflicted. I'm not saying he should be in jail forever. But I'm also saying it's clear that he shouldn't be representing his country on the world stage. That's a privilege you should lose forever when you rape a child. Cause remember, going to the Olympics is a privilege, not a right. It's like yeah he served your time, would you let him babysit your daughter now then? Or let him hang out at schools? You gotta forgive, but you're stupid if you forget
There's a system in place for that. It's called 'verklaring omtrent gedrag'. For many jobs and positions you need this certificate of conduct in order to apply. The ministry of justice will not hand out the certificate if your crime is related to the position you apply for. This means he would probably never be allowed to work at a school for instance.
I agree with you pretty much on all points.
I am also conflicted.
It's up to courts and parole boards to determine what punishments are appropriate, given the context of the crimes.
I don't like the guy, and of course his crime was repugnant, but I can still acknowledge that he's one of the best volleyball players in the world. These two opinions are incongruous and yet, they exist at the same time.
My thought is more along the lines of, "Regardless of his talent level, is this really the kind of person that his country wants representing them on the world stage?"
Like, okay even if he's the absolute best by an order of magnitude...if he were from my country, I'd rather lose every match than win on the talents of someone like that.
For me, there's a difference between rehabilitation and letting someone represent your country at the olympics. Athletes don't have to be perfect but to a certain extent they are ambassadors of their country and role models.
This paired with him not staying in prison for long because the Dutch legal system is fucking abysmal is reason enough for me to celebrate that he's out.
On the other hand, he was convicted, sentenced, did time and is now back in society apparently showing remorse.
He flew to England, raped a 12 yo, got convicted by the English for 4 years. He was deported back to Netherlands, they dropped it to 1 year.
This isn't justice.
First of all, not all crimes are the same nor should be treated equally.
Secondly, he raped a 12 year old, and that's unredeemable in a lot of people's book.
That doesn't answer their question though. Those people don't have to be friends with the guy, but wishing him death or homelessness etc is not only horrible but solves nothing other than making them feel like they're "better".
It's simple really.
His judgement, sentencing and punishment satisfy the needs of the law. the law has done it's part (arguably terribly in this case) and is at rest.
This is vastly different than the judgement bright forth by the court of public opinion. They are not so forgiving.
Perhaps that's something the dude should have thought about before doing what he did
Why can’t he continue his life?
Because he raped a child. The only olympic event he should have been allowed to participate in was competitive shooting, as a target.
I'm very conflicted about this whole thing. On the one hand, yeah it's kind of a scandal and people have every right to be booing him every time he touches the ball.
On the other hand, he was convicted, sentenced, did time and is now back in society apparently showing remorse. People are calling for his career to end and various wishes of death on him. Why can't he continue his life?
Are we supposed to lock up all criminals forever? Kill them? Just not allow them to follow their chosen career after getting out? Or is it just sports they shouldn't be allowed to participate in?
He showed no remorse. He called it nonsense. He said he made mistakes as a youth. He has not even bothered to offer anything in the way of an apology.
He didn't even serve his full sentence. You can't call him reformed that way
I also saw those statements on his wiki. Also saw some about it being "the worst mistake of his life". I don't imagine he would get parole without showing remorse.
You don't imagine? Well then that proves it. He's very sorry he raped a 12-year-old girl over and over even though he's never said so in public.
He did barely a year of prison... I personally don't quite think it's enough for raping a kid, but hey that's just my opinion
It seems like a lot of criminals who "did their time" really didn't do much at all.
Compare that to a lifetime of hurt caused to the victim(s) and their families, and it just doesn't seem good enough.
Enough for what? Your sense of vengeance? I don't know, only you can tell... Enough for rehabilitation? I don't know, but it is possible. Time needed for rehabilitation varies widely. It's quite possible the year was enough. One thing we do know is that the Netherlands is heavily in favour of rehabilitation over punishment, since rehabilitation actually forwards society
I am European and heavily against punitive justice. But I think one year of prison for a crime almost universally considered among the worst is not enough for rehabilitation, and I find this opinion validated by the lack of understanding or even remorse shown by the guy in public statements
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, but am getting downvoted because I apparently sound like a "child rape apologist".
I understand the crime is emotionally charged, but that doesn't mean anyone convicted of it should just be thrown in the oubliette.
I would like to propose “forgettamatorium” as an English translation for oubliette.
I believe people can change and I think it’s important we hold space for people to do so. However, that hinges on the person actually growing, which often starts with showing remorse. I know you implied that this guy has done so, but I haven’t seen any evidence of that.
Even the quote you posted somewhere else about it being the worst thing he’d done, or something like that? That very much sounds like a, “I’m not sorry I did it, I’m sorry I got caught” kind of statement.
If there’s an apology or some actual statement showing his remorse, I’d love to see it, but I’m skeptical that it exists. This whole controversy he’s had a huge opportunity to step up, apologize, and rebuke his prior actions. Instead, he’s faced it all with silence and a reaction of ‘I don’t want to talk about it.’ That is not the behavior of a person who acknowledges they were in the wrong, imo.
Seems like this whole debacle is because he didn't make a press tour saying to the whole wide world how remorseful he is, but the comittee said that experts determined that he was remorseful though, so we shouldn't trust the experts now?
from https://nocnsf.nl/en/nocstarnsf-takes-measures-to-ensure-a-safe-sporting-environment-for-all-olympic-participants
The problem is that people absolutely believe that.
Yes it does. I think having empathy is a good thing and most people deserve it. Not child rapists.
So you’re for punitive justice instead of rehabilitive justice?
For pedophiles, yes!
child rapists or pedophiles? One is a crime another is a psychiatric disorder.
Less than half of child rapists are pedophiles.
No im pretty sure all child rapists are pedophiles. I do not think the 2 ideas should be separated. You make it sound like you are cool with people being pedophiles as long as they're not a child rapist. Fucking weird.
Most child rapists are not pathologically attracted to children. It happens because of power imbalances or other factors.
You can think what you’d like but pedophelia has official DSM-5 Diagnostic criteria and there’s an entire academic body of literature behind this.
No, i just dont care about anything you're talking about. All it comes off to me as you are trying to say being a pedophile is not that bad.
Claim whatever by whomever. Nothing now can change the fact that you are pro pedophile and thats just weird.
So correcting your terminology because you are using the word pedophile to have a different meaning than what it is dictionnary defined makes me “pro-pedophile” lol.
By your definition Marriam-Webster, Wikipedia, and pretty much every psychomedical academic journal is “pro-pedophile” then.
Fuck anyone who harms children. But being attracted to children is not a choice, science has proven that. And acting like these people are all evil (even if they’ve never acted on their urges) makes then less likely to seek help because of shame, and increases the rate of children who are hurt.
It’d do a lot of help if you atleast skimmed the wikipedia page on the topic.
Wow im being down voted for being a anti-pedo. Yall are fucking weird. And sick 🤮.
No you're being downvoted for being in favor of barbaric punishments instead of rehabilitation.
Having a less cruel mindset is what allows it to go on though. Our justice system is built by predators for predators so victims are already at a disadvantage, and the fact that anyone would want consideration for the rapist only encourages others. The whole idea of being at all lenient on child rapists is crazy to me
Why do you think anything less than brutal death is "lenient"
My sister was raped as a kid, and as long as i have known pedophiles/child rapist are the worst of the worst. There is no rehabilitation for that. There should be no opps i didnt mean to go to another country and get a 12 year old drunk and rape her 3 times, then appear to the world as the best people can provide. Its just sickienng to try and normalize or be at all lenient toward such vile acts.
I agree, it seems like a small amount on the face of it.
But at the same time, I'm more inclined to trust the judgement of the prison system (at least in The Netherlands) as to whether he is ready to return to society.
It's not the prison system of the Netherlands that you should be considering, It's the legitimacy of the politicians that decided to release him. Clearly it was a political move do you believe that somebody else in his position would have been released so early?
While I agree this seems extremely small. The netherlands is not the US. The specifics of court cases are not made public. We have no idea about them. It might be a very ambiguous case that barely fit the definition of rape or whatever.
Not trying to defend rape or rapists, but we may need more context before we can judge the length of a sentence.
Edit: I just read a less opinionated in depth article on him, and from the details I see, man he fucked up bad, in my opinion he deserved more than 13 months. He got sentenced to 4 years at first but that got cut short.
It's a good thing the court of public opinion still has a voice and doesn't approve of child rapists quite so heartily as the Dutch government. What "time" did he do - like 11months? And he was never remorseful in the slightest. If his only real punishment is going to be him and his country getting booed by the world at the Olympics, I'm happy there's at least that.
Nope, neither of those.
What do you mean? He served 13 months and got out on parole. He's publicly expressed remorse, but that isn't exactly conclusive. I assume there would have been some genuine remorse inside, otherwise there would be no parole.
My point is, if you stop anyone who has been to jail returning to normal society at all, then why let them out at all? You might as well just put every criminal in jail for life, or just kill them straight away.
Just the child rapists is fine with me. There's no reforming that.
If that's not remorse, I don't know what is.
Never apologiest and he only ever talks about how it is bad for him. Remorse it is not.
Remorse: “I am sorry for what I did and the impact it had on the victim. I made stupid choices that hurt another person, and while I can never take that back, I will seek to do better so no one needs to suffer from my actions again.”
Not sorry you did it, just sorry you got caught: “I can’t reverse it, so I have to carry the consequences. It’s the biggest mistake of my life.”
He hardly did any time at all. Frankly you do more time for a parking ticket. Also when did he show remorse like whenever has he ever shown any remorse at all?
he can continue his life, but get the fuck out of public positions like this if youre a fucking pedo rapist
How about "not put them representing your country, where other people might understand that as an endorsement as see him as a role model".
There is shades of grey between "killing him" and "send him to the Olympics".
I'm not conflicted. I'm not saying he should be in jail forever. But I'm also saying it's clear that he shouldn't be representing his country on the world stage. That's a privilege you should lose forever when you rape a child. Cause remember, going to the Olympics is a privilege, not a right. It's like yeah he served your time, would you let him babysit your daughter now then? Or let him hang out at schools? You gotta forgive, but you're stupid if you forget
There's a system in place for that. It's called 'verklaring omtrent gedrag'. For many jobs and positions you need this certificate of conduct in order to apply. The ministry of justice will not hand out the certificate if your crime is related to the position you apply for. This means he would probably never be allowed to work at a school for instance.
I agree with you pretty much on all points.
I am also conflicted.
It's up to courts and parole boards to determine what punishments are appropriate, given the context of the crimes.
I don't like the guy, and of course his crime was repugnant, but I can still acknowledge that he's one of the best volleyball players in the world. These two opinions are incongruous and yet, they exist at the same time.
My thought is more along the lines of, "Regardless of his talent level, is this really the kind of person that his country wants representing them on the world stage?"
Like, okay even if he's the absolute best by an order of magnitude...if he were from my country, I'd rather lose every match than win on the talents of someone like that.
For me, there's a difference between rehabilitation and letting someone represent your country at the olympics. Athletes don't have to be perfect but to a certain extent they are ambassadors of their country and role models.
This paired with him not staying in prison for long because the Dutch legal system is fucking abysmal is reason enough for me to celebrate that he's out.
He flew to England, raped a 12 yo, got convicted by the English for 4 years. He was deported back to Netherlands, they dropped it to 1 year.
This isn't justice.
First of all, not all crimes are the same nor should be treated equally.
Secondly, he raped a 12 year old, and that's unredeemable in a lot of people's book.
That doesn't answer their question though. Those people don't have to be friends with the guy, but wishing him death or homelessness etc is not only horrible but solves nothing other than making them feel like they're "better".
It's simple really.
His judgement, sentencing and punishment satisfy the needs of the law. the law has done it's part (arguably terribly in this case) and is at rest.
This is vastly different than the judgement bright forth by the court of public opinion. They are not so forgiving.
Perhaps that's something the dude should have thought about before doing what he did
Because he raped a child. The only olympic event he should have been allowed to participate in was competitive shooting, as a target.