These people have to deal with the public. People suck, so burnout happens pretty quickly.
Most people don’t want to do that job so your criteria for acceptance is relatively low. See post office or other public-facing gov work.
Edit: Huge shoutout to the woman at the DMV the last time I had to go who was the nicest person I’ve ever interacted with in any situatiin as a customer, not just at the DMV.
My local post office workers are super great. I appreciate them because they deserve appreciation.
Your DMV workers deserve appreciation too. Your perspective is broken if you don't think so.
They don't deserve my appreciation because they haven't earned it. They have my respect because I understand the job sucks and I'd never go out of my way to make things difficult for them. Then again when they get pissed off that i happen to exist, I start to resent them, and that's fair.
The people who work there are generally nice. The DMV - however - is a beauracratic nightmare. It's simply over complicated. Why must I register my car? A license and insruance should be all I need. I don't register my shoes. I don't register my computers. A car is no different. I understand having an authority which says "I own this vehicle". But registering every year is basically just a waste of paper.
Why do we now need 2 forms proving residency to get a star on an ID in order to fly between states? Should the homeless not be allowed to fly?
Why do I need to fill out so much of it in person? I did everything I could online, but still they required me to pick up a packet of forms. Plus I had to retake my driver's license test despite owning a valid license in my state. At this point, they should be able to - at least - fill out everything online. Hell, I should never have to go in person except in the case of taking a photo (which arguably is kind of dumb, but I can understand the security reasons for it).
The DMV has convoluted forms, much like taxes. Filling out their forms should be idiot proof. But I - an idiot - have made mistakes on multiple occasions.
After all the forms and all the verification, human error still makes it a crapshoot. Believe it or not, I had my birthday entered incorrectly on a license. I owned a valid driver's license which lied about my month, day, and year of birth. At what point do we not just ask ourselves: what are we doing here?
And I have to pay for my license? That's absurd. In many cases, licenses are required by the government. How many times have you heard an officer demand a license despite a person not driving a car at the time? If a cop demands it as proof of my ID, then the government should provide it free (what else are taxes for?) Not to mention the fact that voting laws are starting to come up requiring a license. A license which you can only get if you pass a test, have a proof of residence, and have cash to afford it. I am very against disenfranchising the homeless (or anyone who meets that criteria) from voting.
The DMV is just what most poorly funded and poorly designed government entities end up becoming: a barrier for access to things that should be easy to access.
I've traveled all over the world and seen many systems. I've lived in many states. America is king of the poorly designed system.
"..Why must I register my car? A license and insruance should be all I need. I don't register my shoes. I don't register my computers. A car is no different..."
You have a very legit question, and I too thought about this.
And I think the reason is just the same as registering your firearms - because in the end your car is a 4,000 lb killing machine.
Everything else you mentioned - I agree 100%
You could have a plate and registration without annual registration.
In the UK you have to tell the DVLA when you sell or buy a car so they can keep ownership records - this is useful because when you get caught speeding by a camera (for example) the owner is legally responsible and can be found. This doesn't need annual updates, though we pay car tax annually so we're unlikely to forget to update the DVLA if for example you move house.
Often the registration fees are used for road maintenance.
Another reason I think is the safety inspection, since you generally don’t want non-road worthy cars going 60mph. And yes, I know some states don’t require inspections.
And I think the reason is just the same as registering your firearms
Firearms are only registered in a small handful of states. The overwhelming majority of the nation's 700 million guns are not subject to any sort of registration requirements.
FFL dealers are required to keep records (ATF 4473), but you don't have to buy from an FFL dealer, and private transfers are not subject to registration either.
What? Where the hell do you need to register your firearms and where do you get the idea that registering a car is for safety? The reason you have to register your car is because that is the tax you are paying to support the public infrastructure that you are driving on. It has nothing to do with safety. And also the unholy alliance of private insurance and the legal requirement to pay a private entity.
Your car travels almost exclusively on very expensive public roads and highways. License fees are used to help fund those roads. Many states have provisions to allow unlicensed vehicles on private property.
Also, cars in poor operating condition are dangerous and polluting. Many states have some combination of safety and/or emissions inspections as part of licensing.
Many states, especially where there are photo ID requirements, so offer free photo IDs. And pretty well every form I’ve filled out has been no more than a page in my state.
Accessibility for everyone should be a primary concern of the government, wether it be state or federal. You are spot on with creating barriers of entry. They don't want the homeless or extremely impoverished voting. Otherwise why would it be so complex? It has no true need to be. Any system made up by humans that is so convoluted even the employees have issues is designed to create barriers not enable access.
"..Accessibility for everyone should be a primary concern of the government.."
Totally agree.
But I also think that there is no reason to assume that the Government has any incentive whatsoever to care for people's welfare.
Several years ago there was a story about a very successful ice cream maker who believed that schools should be run like businesses in order to be successful. He was asked what he does when he gets a bad batch of blueberries and he replied that he sends them back. Public schools, DMV, social security office, etc. don't get to choose their blueberries - for better or worse they work with whatever comes through the door. Most of us are pretty socially insulated. DMV pops the bubble. I think that would be a stressful job.
I never understood this mindset. Why would you want things like schools or the DMV to give customers the worst quality product at the highest price possible like a business would?
Post office too. Really any government office where the public is allowed inside.
Underpaid workers trying to explain bureaucratic minutiae (for which they are not responsible) every single day to people who are not versed in that minutiae, do not want to learn it, cannot learn it, and are preemptively frustrated that they have to have this interaction in the first place. There is no winning--mental health isn't cheap, do the workers' resilience only lasts for so many years/months/days before they default to hating the clients, and the clients don't trust publicly available instructions, thus dooming themselves to the shitty interactions.
The only way to fix this is to take both people out of the equation--preprocess everything that might need to happen for everyone, to the point of turning every transaction into a single trasaction. That requires for every city, county, state, national, international agency to federate, so that you never have to file multiple documents to do a thing.
I reject the premise. I've had three interactions with the DMV in-person, and all three were smooth and pleasant.
Their website was irredeemably broken (and poorly-designed even if it had worked as intended), but that's a different story...
Indeed. Though, I'm lucky to have options on which DMV I visit, and I always choose the less travelled option, less waiting and the techs are much nicer.
Mother-in-law works at one. Under educated, under paid, not enough help, everyone is forced to go there and sees it as a watse of their time so the "guv'ment" can "steal" your hard earned money. At least in thd US.
Well the government does steal our money...
Are roads magic things that appear for free out of thin air?
This is a person that blames the workers for the poor working environment that is public facing government jobs. I think there are some other safe assumptions to make...
Y'all don't have a road tree? It's right next to the money tree. And they're both dead, cause no one remembered to water them.
Uh, yeah?
What else isn't magic, Mr magic man? Magnets?
My state has some of the highest taxes and the second worst roads in the country. The roads should be better for the money i pay in taxes.
But really I'm talking about wasted tax money. We all know the military blows money for fun with money we could've used to build an American autobahn.
What state? What taxes are you talking about? Do you live in a state with hard frost cycles?
In a word: underfunding. There are just far too few branches with far too few employees to effectively serve far too many people who don't have the option of getting it done anywhere else.
This leads to long lines and angrily impatient clients, which is so stressful in the long run as to crush the spirits of even the most cheerily helpful and dedicated public servant.
All of it could EASILY be fixed by building more locations, expanding open hours, hiring more staff and letting people do some of the things themselves online, but politicians would rather spend your tax dollars on tax breaks for the rich and corporations.
The REAL solution is to build robust public transit so that a decent amount of people don't even need to own a car and therefore don't need to worry about going to the DMV.
But like you said, the rich and the corporations come first.
Except for the fact that, in spite of the name, the DMV isn't just about motor vehicles. It's also the main source for getting government ID, which is necessary for many things including, in some states hit particularly hard by right wing demagoguery, exercising your right to vote.
I dont want to run counter to the theme, but I've never had a problem with the DMV.
My DMV lets you make appointments though, so maybe thats why. Never gone in without an appointment.
This. I'm sorry y'al dislike your DMV so much. Mine rules. I've never spent more than 15 minutes in their office (each time). The people are friendly and know their stuff, too.
Same here. I figured it was just an inaccurate stereotype
Any post that starts, "we all agree..." is immediately suspect. Haha
Counterpoint: we all agree that there's pretty much nothing that we all agree on
DMVs are sometimes where states will dump troublesome or underperforming employees they can't outright fire.
On the other end, the DMV is one of the places where employees have a job interacting with the public for sometimes-complex transactions. And, generally speaking, the public is dumb, unpleasant, and unprepared. Especially when dealing with low-level government beaurocrats who are telling them something they don't want to hear.
Maybe if you just repeat what others say online. My experience isn't like this.
Mine has been. Everytime i go so its not a one off thing.
My dmv is fine. Just took my dad there for a new picture took ten minutes.
I dont agree with that at all. I guess it depends on what DMV you go to. I also have nothing against the post office.
I've never had post office problems, they're pretty good in my area at least
The why is by design. Politicians in the US's first past the post voting system are there to enrich themselves. They enrich themselves by making sure that the people who paid for their campaign are getting the appropriate tax structure and subsidies they paid for. Because state level budgets are finite, anything that does not advance the goal of the donor's is optional. In addition think tanks such as the heritage foundation, or the third way, or hundreds of others that are the same with different names, are on a mission to make sure that government is privatized. It's a slow multi-decade process, but the post office, the TSA, security clearances etc etc are examples of their success.
It's very easy to make government agency's efficient, but making an efficient government means that a middleman doesn't get paid, and thus in our hellish system, an efficient government cannot exist.
In my city I avoid the ones like this. I found one where they're super nice and cooperative and laugh and make it a pleasant experience. Now I drive past two shitty tag agencies to go to the pleasant one. Totally worth it.
My DMV has always been staffed adequately by helpful people who do their job well. YMMV.
AFAIC the op is an example of neoliberal propaganda.
The workers are tired of dealing with endless red tape and clueless customers. Plus they aren't compensated based on how good the customer service is.
Fuck it lets give them a tip jar. Everyone else has one, its only fair
Got a new bike from out of state, fucking paperwork nightmare here. Went to bmv for the final step and there was a line out of the door and inside is packed. Almost left but said fuck it and got in line.
Moments later a staff member comes out and hands everyone a ticket. Went in and sat down, was done in 30. Freaking like clockwork. Never had an experience like that at a bmv before. Usually it’s a shitshow.
There's a small group of the general public that goes in the dmv with a complicated niche case with no idea what they need to do.
I got stuck behind a lady at the post office who had the dmv on speakerphone while they were trying to get proof of address because she just never had her mail forwarded when she moved.
I go into the dmv they make the dmv counter people answer the phones. I had two people call in and essentially cut the line in front of me to ask basic questions that they could have looked up on the website. If it's unacceptable for people to interrupt me in person, then why do they allow it over the phone? Hate that shit.
I've never understood the DMV hate. I just make an appointment online.
Me too. Ive never just walked in without one. It makes things faster, but not better if that makes sense
I don't think a person knows hummanity better than after working at customer service. I say that before sales and marketing because the as a service rep you are the filter for everything and the first one to interact with people. If they are angry doesn't matter the reason, or any small inconvinience even if it was a result of the client themselves.
I won’t say where it is so it didn’t get ruined but a busy dmv near the city closed down and opened somewhere slightly further away. The new location is a lot bigger, but no one goes there.
Luckily it’s like a 5 minute drive from my parents house and when you go in and get your ticket to see someone, they usually call your number before you get to the window.
I literally went, forgot documents, went home, go the documents, went back, and renewed my license in less than an hour.
Just sharing this on behalf of dmvs everywhere.
I hear this from Americans a lot, here everything is pretty much online nowadays (although a friend of mine had her identity stolen so she has to get in person which is her biggest complaint about the whole thing)
I have never had a bad experience at the DMV
After moving to the area known at the DMV I was not sure if this was the location or the agency. Glad to see it’s the latter :)
My DMV switched to appointments recently and it’s been great.
Our BMV is pretty ok so long as you dont go at like 5pm on a Friday. But pretty much everywhere is terrible if you go at peak hours
All government everywhere is like this. People are freaked out about schools grooming their kids and doing all kinds of evil crazy shit, but what was supposed to happen? There’s an inescapable Dead Sea effect that increases until it becomes impossible to hire or retain sane people above 90 iq.
Also who is supposed to employ all the idiots? Private businesses that exist in a market and rely on voluntary exchange can’t support them. Only government and its appendages that collect money via state violence. Enjoy your all-day wait to receive those super-important small dick stickers or whatever they’re subjecting you to. Or ride a bike.
These people have to deal with the public. People suck, so burnout happens pretty quickly.
Most people don’t want to do that job so your criteria for acceptance is relatively low. See post office or other public-facing gov work.
Edit: Huge shoutout to the woman at the DMV the last time I had to go who was the nicest person I’ve ever interacted with in any situatiin as a customer, not just at the DMV.
My local post office workers are super great. I appreciate them because they deserve appreciation.
Your DMV workers deserve appreciation too. Your perspective is broken if you don't think so.
They don't deserve my appreciation because they haven't earned it. They have my respect because I understand the job sucks and I'd never go out of my way to make things difficult for them. Then again when they get pissed off that i happen to exist, I start to resent them, and that's fair.
The people who work there are generally nice. The DMV - however - is a beauracratic nightmare. It's simply over complicated. Why must I register my car? A license and insruance should be all I need. I don't register my shoes. I don't register my computers. A car is no different. I understand having an authority which says "I own this vehicle". But registering every year is basically just a waste of paper.
Why do we now need 2 forms proving residency to get a star on an ID in order to fly between states? Should the homeless not be allowed to fly?
Why do I need to fill out so much of it in person? I did everything I could online, but still they required me to pick up a packet of forms. Plus I had to retake my driver's license test despite owning a valid license in my state. At this point, they should be able to - at least - fill out everything online. Hell, I should never have to go in person except in the case of taking a photo (which arguably is kind of dumb, but I can understand the security reasons for it).
The DMV has convoluted forms, much like taxes. Filling out their forms should be idiot proof. But I - an idiot - have made mistakes on multiple occasions.
After all the forms and all the verification, human error still makes it a crapshoot. Believe it or not, I had my birthday entered incorrectly on a license. I owned a valid driver's license which lied about my month, day, and year of birth. At what point do we not just ask ourselves: what are we doing here?
And I have to pay for my license? That's absurd. In many cases, licenses are required by the government. How many times have you heard an officer demand a license despite a person not driving a car at the time? If a cop demands it as proof of my ID, then the government should provide it free (what else are taxes for?) Not to mention the fact that voting laws are starting to come up requiring a license. A license which you can only get if you pass a test, have a proof of residence, and have cash to afford it. I am very against disenfranchising the homeless (or anyone who meets that criteria) from voting.
The DMV is just what most poorly funded and poorly designed government entities end up becoming: a barrier for access to things that should be easy to access.
I've traveled all over the world and seen many systems. I've lived in many states. America is king of the poorly designed system.
"..Why must I register my car? A license and insruance should be all I need. I don't register my shoes. I don't register my computers. A car is no different..."
You have a very legit question, and I too thought about this.
And I think the reason is just the same as registering your firearms - because in the end your car is a 4,000 lb killing machine.
Everything else you mentioned - I agree 100%
You could have a plate and registration without annual registration.
In the UK you have to tell the DVLA when you sell or buy a car so they can keep ownership records - this is useful because when you get caught speeding by a camera (for example) the owner is legally responsible and can be found. This doesn't need annual updates, though we pay car tax annually so we're unlikely to forget to update the DVLA if for example you move house.
Often the registration fees are used for road maintenance.
Another reason I think is the safety inspection, since you generally don’t want non-road worthy cars going 60mph. And yes, I know some states don’t require inspections.
Firearms are only registered in a small handful of states. The overwhelming majority of the nation's 700 million guns are not subject to any sort of registration requirements.
FFL dealers are required to keep records (ATF 4473), but you don't have to buy from an FFL dealer, and private transfers are not subject to registration either.
What? Where the hell do you need to register your firearms and where do you get the idea that registering a car is for safety? The reason you have to register your car is because that is the tax you are paying to support the public infrastructure that you are driving on. It has nothing to do with safety. And also the unholy alliance of private insurance and the legal requirement to pay a private entity.
Your car travels almost exclusively on very expensive public roads and highways. License fees are used to help fund those roads. Many states have provisions to allow unlicensed vehicles on private property.
Also, cars in poor operating condition are dangerous and polluting. Many states have some combination of safety and/or emissions inspections as part of licensing.
Many states, especially where there are photo ID requirements, so offer free photo IDs. And pretty well every form I’ve filled out has been no more than a page in my state.
Accessibility for everyone should be a primary concern of the government, wether it be state or federal. You are spot on with creating barriers of entry. They don't want the homeless or extremely impoverished voting. Otherwise why would it be so complex? It has no true need to be. Any system made up by humans that is so convoluted even the employees have issues is designed to create barriers not enable access.
"..Accessibility for everyone should be a primary concern of the government.."
Totally agree.
But I also think that there is no reason to assume that the Government has any incentive whatsoever to care for people's welfare.
Several years ago there was a story about a very successful ice cream maker who believed that schools should be run like businesses in order to be successful. He was asked what he does when he gets a bad batch of blueberries and he replied that he sends them back. Public schools, DMV, social security office, etc. don't get to choose their blueberries - for better or worse they work with whatever comes through the door. Most of us are pretty socially insulated. DMV pops the bubble. I think that would be a stressful job.
I never understood this mindset. Why would you want things like schools or the DMV to give customers the worst quality product at the highest price possible like a business would?
Post office too. Really any government office where the public is allowed inside.
Underpaid workers trying to explain bureaucratic minutiae (for which they are not responsible) every single day to people who are not versed in that minutiae, do not want to learn it, cannot learn it, and are preemptively frustrated that they have to have this interaction in the first place. There is no winning--mental health isn't cheap, do the workers' resilience only lasts for so many years/months/days before they default to hating the clients, and the clients don't trust publicly available instructions, thus dooming themselves to the shitty interactions.
The only way to fix this is to take both people out of the equation--preprocess everything that might need to happen for everyone, to the point of turning every transaction into a single trasaction. That requires for every city, county, state, national, international agency to federate, so that you never have to file multiple documents to do a thing.
I reject the premise. I've had three interactions with the DMV in-person, and all three were smooth and pleasant.
Their website was irredeemably broken (and poorly-designed even if it had worked as intended), but that's a different story...
Indeed. Though, I'm lucky to have options on which DMV I visit, and I always choose the less travelled option, less waiting and the techs are much nicer.
Mother-in-law works at one. Under educated, under paid, not enough help, everyone is forced to go there and sees it as a watse of their time so the "guv'ment" can "steal" your hard earned money. At least in thd US.
Well the government does steal our money...
Are roads magic things that appear for free out of thin air?
This is a person that blames the workers for the poor working environment that is public facing government jobs. I think there are some other safe assumptions to make...
Y'all don't have a road tree? It's right next to the money tree. And they're both dead, cause no one remembered to water them.
Uh, yeah?
What else isn't magic, Mr magic man? Magnets?
My state has some of the highest taxes and the second worst roads in the country. The roads should be better for the money i pay in taxes.
But really I'm talking about wasted tax money. We all know the military blows money for fun with money we could've used to build an American autobahn.
What state? What taxes are you talking about? Do you live in a state with hard frost cycles?
In a word: underfunding. There are just far too few branches with far too few employees to effectively serve far too many people who don't have the option of getting it done anywhere else.
This leads to long lines and angrily impatient clients, which is so stressful in the long run as to crush the spirits of even the most cheerily helpful and dedicated public servant.
All of it could EASILY be fixed by building more locations, expanding open hours, hiring more staff and letting people do some of the things themselves online, but politicians would rather spend your tax dollars on tax breaks for the rich and corporations.
The REAL solution is to build robust public transit so that a decent amount of people don't even need to own a car and therefore don't need to worry about going to the DMV.
But like you said, the rich and the corporations come first.
Except for the fact that, in spite of the name, the DMV isn't just about motor vehicles. It's also the main source for getting government ID, which is necessary for many things including, in some states hit particularly hard by right wing demagoguery, exercising your right to vote.
I dont want to run counter to the theme, but I've never had a problem with the DMV.
My DMV lets you make appointments though, so maybe thats why. Never gone in without an appointment.
This. I'm sorry y'al dislike your DMV so much. Mine rules. I've never spent more than 15 minutes in their office (each time). The people are friendly and know their stuff, too.
Same here. I figured it was just an inaccurate stereotype
Any post that starts, "we all agree..." is immediately suspect. Haha
Counterpoint: we all agree that there's pretty much nothing that we all agree on
DMVs are sometimes where states will dump troublesome or underperforming employees they can't outright fire.
On the other end, the DMV is one of the places where employees have a job interacting with the public for sometimes-complex transactions. And, generally speaking, the public is dumb, unpleasant, and unprepared. Especially when dealing with low-level government beaurocrats who are telling them something they don't want to hear.
Maybe if you just repeat what others say online. My experience isn't like this.
Mine has been. Everytime i go so its not a one off thing.
My dmv is fine. Just took my dad there for a new picture took ten minutes.
I dont agree with that at all. I guess it depends on what DMV you go to. I also have nothing against the post office.
I've never had post office problems, they're pretty good in my area at least
The why is by design. Politicians in the US's first past the post voting system are there to enrich themselves. They enrich themselves by making sure that the people who paid for their campaign are getting the appropriate tax structure and subsidies they paid for. Because state level budgets are finite, anything that does not advance the goal of the donor's is optional. In addition think tanks such as the heritage foundation, or the third way, or hundreds of others that are the same with different names, are on a mission to make sure that government is privatized. It's a slow multi-decade process, but the post office, the TSA, security clearances etc etc are examples of their success.
It's very easy to make government agency's efficient, but making an efficient government means that a middleman doesn't get paid, and thus in our hellish system, an efficient government cannot exist.
In my city I avoid the ones like this. I found one where they're super nice and cooperative and laugh and make it a pleasant experience. Now I drive past two shitty tag agencies to go to the pleasant one. Totally worth it.
My DMV has always been staffed adequately by helpful people who do their job well. YMMV.
AFAIC the op is an example of neoliberal propaganda.
The workers are tired of dealing with endless red tape and clueless customers. Plus they aren't compensated based on how good the customer service is.
Fuck it lets give them a tip jar. Everyone else has one, its only fair
Got a new bike from out of state, fucking paperwork nightmare here. Went to bmv for the final step and there was a line out of the door and inside is packed. Almost left but said fuck it and got in line.
Moments later a staff member comes out and hands everyone a ticket. Went in and sat down, was done in 30. Freaking like clockwork. Never had an experience like that at a bmv before. Usually it’s a shitshow.
There's a small group of the general public that goes in the dmv with a complicated niche case with no idea what they need to do.
I got stuck behind a lady at the post office who had the dmv on speakerphone while they were trying to get proof of address because she just never had her mail forwarded when she moved.
I go into the dmv they make the dmv counter people answer the phones. I had two people call in and essentially cut the line in front of me to ask basic questions that they could have looked up on the website. If it's unacceptable for people to interrupt me in person, then why do they allow it over the phone? Hate that shit.
I've never understood the DMV hate. I just make an appointment online.
Me too. Ive never just walked in without one. It makes things faster, but not better if that makes sense
I don't think a person knows hummanity better than after working at customer service. I say that before sales and marketing because the as a service rep you are the filter for everything and the first one to interact with people. If they are angry doesn't matter the reason, or any small inconvinience even if it was a result of the client themselves.
I won’t say where it is so it didn’t get ruined but a busy dmv near the city closed down and opened somewhere slightly further away. The new location is a lot bigger, but no one goes there.
Luckily it’s like a 5 minute drive from my parents house and when you go in and get your ticket to see someone, they usually call your number before you get to the window.
I literally went, forgot documents, went home, go the documents, went back, and renewed my license in less than an hour.
Just sharing this on behalf of dmvs everywhere.
I hear this from Americans a lot, here everything is pretty much online nowadays (although a friend of mine had her identity stolen so she has to get in person which is her biggest complaint about the whole thing)
I have never had a bad experience at the DMV
After moving to the area known at the DMV I was not sure if this was the location or the agency. Glad to see it’s the latter :)
My DMV switched to appointments recently and it’s been great.
Our BMV is pretty ok so long as you dont go at like 5pm on a Friday. But pretty much everywhere is terrible if you go at peak hours
All government everywhere is like this. People are freaked out about schools grooming their kids and doing all kinds of evil crazy shit, but what was supposed to happen? There’s an inescapable Dead Sea effect that increases until it becomes impossible to hire or retain sane people above 90 iq.
Also who is supposed to employ all the idiots? Private businesses that exist in a market and rely on voluntary exchange can’t support them. Only government and its appendages that collect money via state violence. Enjoy your all-day wait to receive those super-important small dick stickers or whatever they’re subjecting you to. Or ride a bike.