That said, what a fucking weird world where she and Dick "Fuck You" Cheney are on the same side-- and somehow it's still a toss-up election.
It's the "Everyone who doesn't want to put a gun against society's head and pull the trigger" coalition.
Sadly, whether that's a majority is yet to be seen.
Ah, a Marxist who has taken actual lessons from past failings of those who adhere to the ideology. How refreshing.
“But genocide!” - Dude, it’s gonna be genocide either way. Voting for a third party or abstaining entirely isn’t going to change that.
But it could be a slightly less painful genocide if Kamala is in charge. Why not help make things marginally better?
People who say "Kamela Harris supports genocide!" keep forgetting Trump literally put the Israeli Embassy in Jerusalem and wants to nuke everything...
I randomly remembered that Ben Shapiro claimed multiple times that radiation was a myth liberals made up to get people to not use nukes.... These Right Wingers are crazy
The yanks are crazy. Fix your goddamn country. Every four years you pick between the carrot and the stick and then proceed with the exact same external policy. You guys sucks ass. The angry part of me hopes for a civil war in the US. After all the time you coup'ed foreign countries, it would be a nice find-out moment.
The current vice president of usa is supporting a genocide and that's a fact
Running for elections against someone who is even worst than you doesn't magically make you less of a criminal, especially when you are supporting a genocide where dozen of kids are being murdered daily.
It doesn't make you less of a criminal, which no one is claiming, but it does make you the lesser criminal.
America supports genocide. The political situation there is just accidental.
I hope they pay one day.
You're a monster. "A slightly less painful genocide"? Do you hear yourself?
Some infinities are larger than others.
Most people prefer less genocide. It's quite good for it to be scarce.
What about no genocide omg. Do you have a soul?
Oh, you only want no genocide and not no killing? Do you have a soul? You're such a monster!
We can go on forever saying some things are worse than others. Eventually you have to accept you don't have a choice of perfection, and you never will.
Also I'm dyslexic so please avoid double negations everybody hate them
You do have the choice. You could bomb tel aviv like we did to belgrade when they did genocide. You could massively boycott the elections since none of the candidates are above geneva convention line. You are a coward.
I'm sorry, I don't have a bomber. That is not a choice I have. I also am not a member of the International Court of Justice nor am I an attorney or a UN representative. I don't really have any power to enforce the Geneva convention. By the way you're speaking it appears you do and you should use that power instead of telling others they aren't doing it.
What does boycotting the election do that is any different than if I just didn't exist? If they can just ignore me, then what effect does that have that forces them to change? It would appear effectively being non-existent is the cowardly option.
You speak a big game, but you don't actually play it. Its easy to say something isn't enough, but what actually would be? I can always point to a flaw. A coward would say "I'm just not going to do anything." Someone who actually cares will accept that they have a moral responsibility to do what they can to achieve the best outcome, even if that outcome isn't perfect and still has massive moral flaws, because the alternative would only be worse.
Being cowardly and letting the worst option come to fruition is true moral degeneracy. The Palestinians that die from US support ramping up will be on everyone's hands, and especially those who chose it or didn't try to prevent it, including those from outside trying to make other do so.
The reality is there are only two choices. Which will you choose?
The reality is that there are thousand of choices but propaganda makes you believe there's only two. The world and society weren't build by the red and blue party.
Aspirationally, of course there are more than two choices. Realistically, only two of those have a chance at success. The US electoral system has ensured this. The way to fix the system is to elect those who want to change it for the better, not those who wish to destroy it and all it stands for.
Realistically until elections are over everyone has the same change of winning because ballot polls are hypothetical. Voting is not the only way you have to change things for good. The same way there's people advocating for corrupted parties you can waste your energies on something more useful.
Sure, every voter in the country could suddenly and radically change their minds about who to vote for, but we both know that isn't going to happen, because it's never happened. The only time that a third party has ever upset an established party is when the Republicans threw out the Whigs before the American Civil War. They did that through years of lead-up and messaging, along with a growing emancipation movement. You're not changing anyone's minds that radically this close to an election.
Believe it or not, I don't spend most of my day voting or responding to internet comments.
And as you smile smugly to yourself about your moral superiority for choosing philosophy over the unfortunate situation that is reality, women die due to lack of reasonable healthcare, minorities and those deemed "deviant" by fundamentalists are oppressed, and the genocide in Palestine is ramped up and overtly supported by American interests because the right doesn't do this kind of philosophical masturbation and thus handily wins the election.
Look, I want to see the end of the binary too, but only an ignorant person thinks you can win a race by being dropped off at the finish line and walking 2 steps. The end of the binary will not come from a surprise upset Presidential election out of nowhere. It just won't. Not today, not ever. If you actually give a shit about making a change and not just feeling above it all personally, you'd be out on the streets in non election years working to legitimize third party candidates in viable lower and local races where they can win and affect change outside the party system. And if you're somewhere where that has already happened, you'd be working with them to extend their reach, pushing their influence further. Or you'd be running locally as a third-party candidate yourself.
And if you are already doing that, first off thank you so much, but secondly, then you must understand what a difficult uphill battle the fight is and more importantly you must understand you can't just skip ahead to the finish line.
You mention that voting is not the only way to change things for good and you are absolutely right. Hell, I'd say it's not even one of the primary ways. But what voting is is one of the highest return on investment ways of effecting change; the amount of effect it takes to vote is beyond nominal, practically insignificant, yet the consequences have significant real world impact. Not smartly utilizing your vote is like being hungry in a cabin in the woods and taking a knife out hunt a wild boar for food when there is a literal ham sandwich in a ziploc bag in the fridge waiting for you.
But what voting is is one of the highest return on investment ways of effecting change
I'm constantly working on local stuff, my vote has never made any kind of a difference - I live in an urban area jerrymandered to include as much of the suburbs as possible, they vote in lockstep to keep their taxes low and poors out. They are bipartisan about that. The local democratic committees are all just full of the family of people running for office and nobody with good politics has the time or energy to participate in the democratic party
I'm in a blue state, I've voted every year for decades, it's always felt like a waste of time. Any time I ask elected representatives about something they didn't already want to do they (or their staff) tell me to fuck off.
That's more of a general human trait than an American one. Yes, Americans are very fond of their exceptionalism, but valuing the lives of your own tribe and kin more than those of others is something most mammals share. I dont want war anywhere in the world. I hope you have a nice day.
Then please write your politician to tell them to force netanyahu to calm his tits.
My gf have friends in lebannon. She have friends from gaza. She hurts.
Please?
That's exactly the problem, no one can force Netanyahu to do anything. He's complety off his rocker. He's doing everything to stay in power, because the moment he's not, the courts will go after him. That's why he's trying to appease both those pushing for peace (Yes, I actually mean Biden here) and the warmongers (Israeli right wingers). Notice how he hasn't gotten all the hostages back? That's on purpose. The longer the war goes on, the better for him.
Now, who do you rather want in the White House next year? A feeble old man who will go along with everything Bibi says? Or an experienced prosecutor who can put her foot down?
I'm sorry for your friends. They need to leave, now. If war came to my doorstep, that's what I would do.
Please. When the serbs did genocide the NATO bombed Belgrade. Kadhaffi was gone in a week. You're telling me the US doesn't have leverage against Israel? Come on now. Quit giving them weapons otherwise you guys are complicit, as simple as that.
I'd love to. Alas, all political power vested in me is in the form of a ballot. And I've already voted not to make the situation worse.
That's bullshit. That line of thinking makes you complicit with the atrocities committed in your name.
Voting is absolutely not the only way to make your voice heard. Quite the opposite. You ate the carrot, you're still obeying the farmer.
In my name? The only atrocities commited in my name are the ones I committed myself. And I certainly wouldn't call those atrocities.
That’s exactly the problem, no one can force Netanyahu to do anything.
US government is supporting israel fascist government, they could have prevent the genocide by simply not arming israel to death and gifting them billions. They can still persuade israel government to stop by simply stopp aiding them but they are doing the opposite.
I've done so, Peter Welch is solidly against genocide and Bernie Sanders is trying congressional wizardry to try and cut off arms shipments.
Yeah you guys have been trying for a year now. Maybe stop trying and do something.
Dude, I understand that America is fucking awful right now but don't bullshit about shit you don't understand... Some people are just paying lip service or stalling but Bernie is really fucking trying.
Look I'd buy some nutella and spread it on the ballot. I want to pass a message but I'm classy like that.
Anyway nobody's asking me lmao fix your goddamn country.
Nobody asks you to fix America, they asked you what choice you would make.
Here are the options:
-You can vote for a candidate that represents 10,000 people dying
-You can vote for a candidate that represents 5,000 people dying
-You can abstain and guarantee that the candidate that represents 10,000 people dying wins.
These are your options. There are no other options. So maybe you value your own personal moral integrity more than the lives of 5,000 people, but any reasonable person will see that the second option is the only viable choice if you actually want to be decent.
edit: formating
I thought the reason why you guys had guns was for this kind of situation. Use them. A governement that gives you the choice between genocide and genocide sounds tyranical to me.
Cool man, you successfully recognized that class divide exists in the US just as much as anywhere else and that the ruling class are a minority whose decisions don't represent the working class. Kudos to you for your next-level observation skills!
Here's the thing though: even if we do spark up the fires of revolution tomorrow, you know what? It's probably gonna take more than a month. In the meantime, there is still going to be an American president and there is still going to be an election the fate of which will still have real world impact immediately, including in regards to the Palestinian genocide. Which means even if we're marching up on the White House in victory 8 months (imagining an impossibly best-case fictional scenario here) for now we still have the weight of the choice for President and the inordinate amount of very real lives that decision impacts, both domestically and abroad. So again, any decent person will make the moral choice for harm reduction; whether they acknowledge more needs to be on the personal level to solve the greater issues or not.
Stop letting your childish hateboner for America steal all the blood flow from your brain.
But I was about to hatecum :( meanie
Look I understand your pov. Just realize that from the outside it sounds like you're throwing the "third world" under the bus. Like everytime. US external policy never ceased to be shit so don't be suprised if foreigners are bothsidists.
Anyway stay safe.
Again, you've successfully recognized that America puts its own interests before the interests of foreign nations, same as everywhere else.
For all the shit the world likes to give America for acting like the world police or arbiters of society, rightly so btw, ya'll keep expecting America to act different too. If you think America is deceptive or evil or whatever in our attempts to be the world police, then just stop believing the lie. Don't expect America to be any more altruistic than any other nation and I think it all makes sense. Imo there is no "third world"; people are mostly the same everywhere. Every nation is selfish and every nation is dealing with some level of corruption - so why in the world would you begrudge the people of America for trying their hardest to at least do what they can to reduce the harmful impact of that corruption?
But it could be a slightly less painful genocide if Kamala is in charge.
Are you joking? The situation is dire when people are patting themselves on the back for a "slightly less painful genocide" whatever the hell that means in practice.
It's called accepting reality for what it is and doing your best with the plausible options available.
I.E. being an adult
The Adults In The Room are here to make Tough Decisions just like in muh TV slop and wouldn't you know it, those Tough Decisions involve slaughtering the poor and vulnerable for the benefit of the rich. Anyone who thinks wanton slaughter of the poor is bad, actually, is just a Whiny Child who Doesn't Understand muh Complexity and Nuance needs to Grow Up and Accept Reality, and anyway that's why we need to Kill All The Jews Palestinians.
Grow a fucking spine. Or a conscience. Or both. Grow up and stop looking for a grown up to tell you how the world has to work.
People Who Say It Cannot Be Done Should Not Interrupt Those Who Are Doing It
I know some adults. They have a heart.
You do not.
Being an adult means shutting up and taking it. Got it.
No, it means recognizing a shitty situation and working to make it less shitty - the "I won't vote for Harris because genocide" crowd are refusing to make a situation less shitty because they want the situation to not be shitty at all. Big problems don't have easy solutions - in this case we can all see what a good action would be (stopping any offensive arms sales to Isreal) but the political situation is such that that's not going to happen - we tried to make that happen and I'm deeply grateful to everyone who protested the DNC.
But, at the end of the day, Trump will accelerate the genocide. He's the worst outcome.
It means genocide but the bombs have pride flags instead of American flags, so completely different and if you disagree you're a Russian bot :3
Shame on you, you are complicit. You will go down in history as one of the person that supported this genocide.
Dude, it’s gonna be genocide either way
Help make things better and stop supporting the government and parties who are fueling the genocide
Good news! You will too! You are a member of a society that is all participating. Just because you pretend like you have better morals by not actually participating in a meaningful way doesn't mean you aren't complicit. If someone is about to be murdered and you don't stop them because "you don't want to get your hand dirty" then you made a choice to do nothing. Doing nothing (or meaningfully nothing) doesn't keep you clean, it makes you complicit with anything that happens, not fighting against the worst possible outcome.
Good news! You will too! You are a member of a society that is all participating.
Don't confuse being a victim yourself of your authoritarian state wrongdoings with actively endorsing and supporting your government.
not actually participating in a meaningful way
Not supporting fascists (israel government) or these behind them is a much more meaningful way to help things for good than directly endorsing and supporting them.
If someone is about to be murdered and you don’t stop them because “you don’t want to get your hand dirty” then you made a choice to do nothing.
Kids are being murdered in gaza right now as we talk and what you are doing is advocating for the perpetrators, again shame on you.
Not supporting fascists (israel government) or these behind them is a much more meaningful way to help things for good than directly endorsing and supporting them.
What does not supporting them do? Give me an actual answer of how it effects them in a way that's different from you not existing at all.
Kids are being murdered in gaza right now as we talk and what you are doing is advocating for the perpetrators, again shame on you.
Women are dying in the US because they can't get treatment for pregnancy related complications. Trans people are being denied Healthcare. People are starving and unhoused.
No matter what, everything won't be fixed. Even if you got to hand pick a perfect candidate, they wouldn't or couldn't fix everything. You always only have the choice between what the best outcome will be, not the perfect outcome. Not making a choice makes you a participant in whatever outcome others pick for you.
Shame on you if things get worse because you wanted to pretend moral superiority. Everyone who gets hurt or dies after this is on you (too). Actual morality is a little more complicated than what you're pretending. It's a very complex and diverse subject, and there really isn't black and white.
Women are dying in the US because they can’t get treatment for pregnancy related complications. Trans people are being denied Healthcare. People are starving and unhoused.
And you are advocating for the government in charge! Shame on you! If someone gets hurt you voted for it, don't you try to put the blame on others, you are supporting this shit more than everyone else
If you only see the choices where you don't sacrifice anything (between something prepared and served for you), you don't have a choice.
"Slightly less painful genocide" will not even be slightly less painful. But people there sacrifice lives, while you won't even sacrifice effort (and future efforts in court) to do something of a long list of actions which constitute political terrorism. You are not willing to even break law to defend people who are not being just abused, but murdered en masse in horrible ways.
Then you pretend with that cowardly logic that these are all choices you have, so you don't even want to take responsibility for choosing the easy and safe path of doing nothing.
you won't even sacrifice effort (and future efforts in court) to do something of a long list of actions which constitute political terrorism. You are not willing to even break law to defend people who are not being just abused, but murdered en masse in horrible ways.
Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.
You don’t know me. You don’t know what I have or have not done. Voting and direct action are not mutually exclusive.
Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.
Not your business.
You don’t know me. You don’t know what I have or have not done. Voting and direct action are not mutually exclusive.
All I've said follows from your own comment.
Lol what a rebuttal!
Literally "no u"
Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.
Pot calling the kettle black a bit ain't ya.
I hope you do walk the walk to go along with your big talk, but take responsibility for your words too. Statements like yours gives people a reason to feel "good enough" about "slightly less genocide". And if we all keep repeating the mantra "slightly less genocide", we can feel "good enough" all the way to complete genocide.
Then we can all wear a big frown so everyone knows how upset we are about it.
People on the internet will really be like 'you believe in voting? that pales in effectiveness to my strategy, firebombing a Walmart' and then not firebomb a Walmart.
Hey, I regularly do that... it usually happens after I've had too much taco bell but I leave those bathrooms looking like a war zone.
When people are getting firebombed by thousands in your name, you'd do well to at least dream day and night of firebombing anything near you.
She's someone I really want to deep dive, but I have never taken the time. Her monologue that begins at 1:24 minutes into this clip was my first exposure to her and I love that moment when you realize these awful examples she's citing are not just awful in their own right, but that they drive home her undeniable point at the end, in response to what sounds like it was a bullshit question.
She’s lived a really full life. Even her Wikipedia page is a good overview. She’s the type of activist a lot of keyboard warriors would like to pretend they are.
Did the wiki happen to mention the Marin County courthouse?
Yes. A pretty detailed write up as well. Seems like an easy thing to look up.
Yes, but then he couldn't be here just asking questions.
Can I be here just asking questions?
Sure you can, you don't need my permission. Will they be disingenuous questions or actual questions? :)
Met Angela in the Haight. She was with Katie Cleaver, Eldrige's wife. Amazing how one can quickly turn from helping murder people to a "political activist'. I don't think I need to look it up,
She explicitly did not help murder people. She was literally acquitted. Maybe you do need to look it up.
I know what happened.
Then you should have just opened with calling her a murderer instead of your rather coy question about the courthouse, as if somehow that event would have been omitted when it's a rather famous part of her history.
I didn't call her anything.
OK buddy. You were just asking questions right?
Did she buy guns?
Were those guns used in a murder?
Oh look you you can almost speak your point non-disingenuously after all.
You can think whatever you like of Angela Davis, that's not for me to decide (and despite multiple comments from you, I'm still not sure what that is), I just wish you wouldn't have tried so hard to coyly imply instead of stating it. Thanks for almost coming out and making a plain point.
As for me,
"On June 4, 1972, after 13 hours of deliberations, the all-white jury returned a verdict of not guilty."
“But when you reach that level,” nominee of one of the two major parties, “you have to be the face of capitalism, militarism, and neo-colonialism.” Harris, Fernandez warned, “has told us she will be that face, that she will build the most lethal military apparatus ever.”
Shit's bleak
As dangerous as that reality is, however, she said, “There’s more to think about: Harris is not a fascist, and the other person running for president is.”
You forgot part of the quote.
I didn't forget it, shit's still bleak
The man who appointed Hitler wasn't a fascist.
Naive to expect Americans to know this. Or that "the man who appointed Hitler" was, despite formalities, a military dictator, and that the political opposition there got its share of extrajudicial executions, and political violence was normalized there before any kind of election success of Nazis. People don't like looking into details.
That the whole narrative of "good democracy turning fascist" in post-WWI Germany is bullshit - it wasn't really democracy.
But it was similar to most of the "flawed democracies" on our planet in our time, for which the narrative is that it's some new thing uncommon in history before USSR's breakup. So that narrative was intended to divert attention from similarities between Weimar Germany and those very profitable (for corrupt western politicians) partners.
But getting back to your parallel, it's correct. Kamala Harris is the "law & order & respectable establishment" type. She doesn't even promise solutions to actual problems, only to some symptoms, and those solutions seem like making fun of the general population.
Yeah he got democratically elected after he sent the brown shirt to intimidate everybody else and burned the parliement /s
Well he was elected, but got power after they and the second party outlawed the third party, bumping hitler over 50%.
Get your facts right.
He was elected after he sent the brown shirt thugs to intimidate everybody and did a false flag attack and set the parliement ablaze to arrest communists. I know we are neighbors.
What
The guy who appointed Hitler as chancellor was the "lesser evil" who was "the only way to stop Hitler."
Shit’s bleak
The Venn diagram of the people who have an issue with this and the people who don't care that David Duke supports Trump is a circle
Funnily enough, he seems to not even support Trump anymore, because hes supposedly just endorsed Jill Stein
How random, you 3 have very similar name structures.
Thing, type of, animal
I think Owlbears are actually one creature, its a monster from dnd or something like that. Not that it really changes the observation much I suppose, since mine's referencing Ice-breathing dragons rather than ice and dragons separately anyway
No shit. I did find some reports confirming that, but none I trust enough to share.
NBC is reporting it, which makes it seem unlikely that it’s bullshit.
I could only find MSN aggregation of third rate sources (Times Now, The Spun, and Daily Beast).
Do you have a link?
Just gonna wait for the "Well actually...!" posts 🍿
Threads like this are good because they highlight the ignorance and the malice of people. Half of the people here have no idea who Marx is.
Yeah lets vote thirdparty instead to elect trump, amIright?
Therefore it's okay that we send billions in support of genocide. Don't kid yourself, there will be no open space after your only leverage (your vote) is no longer needed. This is basic bargaining.
Waving around one person as an example of "one of the good ones" with this "real marxist" talk is disgusting. These slimebag politicians only care about your vote and you'll see no change after the election, just like how Obama won and then continued most of Bush's policies.
You remember Bush, right? The war criminal who led the country into two wars and the worst financial crisis since the great depression? Well he used to be the monster of the week, but now he's best buds with the democrats and trump is the new monster of the week. I'm sick of this dog and pony show.
But you see this one Marxist endorsed Kamala, clearly everything she does (including genocide, cracking down on protests, increasing fracking, compromising with fascists, and further expanding capitalist tyranny) is for the good of the workers :3
Oh! I love Angela Davis!
That said, what a fucking weird world where she and Dick "Fuck You" Cheney are on the same side-- and somehow it's still a toss-up election.
It's the "Everyone who doesn't want to put a gun against society's head and pull the trigger" coalition.
Sadly, whether that's a majority is yet to be seen.
Ah, a Marxist who has taken actual lessons from past failings of those who adhere to the ideology. How refreshing.
“But genocide!” - Dude, it’s gonna be genocide either way. Voting for a third party or abstaining entirely isn’t going to change that.
But it could be a slightly less painful genocide if Kamala is in charge. Why not help make things marginally better?
People who say "Kamela Harris supports genocide!" keep forgetting Trump literally put the Israeli Embassy in Jerusalem and wants to nuke everything...
I randomly remembered that Ben Shapiro claimed multiple times that radiation was a myth liberals made up to get people to not use nukes.... These Right Wingers are crazy
The yanks are crazy. Fix your goddamn country. Every four years you pick between the carrot and the stick and then proceed with the exact same external policy. You guys sucks ass. The angry part of me hopes for a civil war in the US. After all the time you coup'ed foreign countries, it would be a nice find-out moment.
The current vice president of usa is supporting a genocide and that's a fact
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
Running for elections against someone who is even worst than you doesn't magically make you less of a criminal, especially when you are supporting a genocide where dozen of kids are being murdered daily.
It doesn't make you less of a criminal, which no one is claiming, but it does make you the lesser criminal.
America supports genocide. The political situation there is just accidental.
I hope they pay one day.
You're a monster. "A slightly less painful genocide"? Do you hear yourself?
Some infinities are larger than others.
Most people prefer less genocide. It's quite good for it to be scarce.
What about no genocide omg. Do you have a soul?
Oh, you only want no genocide and not no killing? Do you have a soul? You're such a monster!
We can go on forever saying some things are worse than others. Eventually you have to accept you don't have a choice of perfection, and you never will.
Also I'm dyslexic so please avoid double negations everybody hate them
You do have the choice. You could bomb tel aviv like we did to belgrade when they did genocide. You could massively boycott the elections since none of the candidates are above geneva convention line. You are a coward.
I'm sorry, I don't have a bomber. That is not a choice I have. I also am not a member of the International Court of Justice nor am I an attorney or a UN representative. I don't really have any power to enforce the Geneva convention. By the way you're speaking it appears you do and you should use that power instead of telling others they aren't doing it.
What does boycotting the election do that is any different than if I just didn't exist? If they can just ignore me, then what effect does that have that forces them to change? It would appear effectively being non-existent is the cowardly option.
You speak a big game, but you don't actually play it. Its easy to say something isn't enough, but what actually would be? I can always point to a flaw. A coward would say "I'm just not going to do anything." Someone who actually cares will accept that they have a moral responsibility to do what they can to achieve the best outcome, even if that outcome isn't perfect and still has massive moral flaws, because the alternative would only be worse.
Being cowardly and letting the worst option come to fruition is true moral degeneracy. The Palestinians that die from US support ramping up will be on everyone's hands, and especially those who chose it or didn't try to prevent it, including those from outside trying to make other do so.
The reality is there are only two choices. Which will you choose?
The reality is that there are thousand of choices but propaganda makes you believe there's only two. The world and society weren't build by the red and blue party.
Aspirationally, of course there are more than two choices. Realistically, only two of those have a chance at success. The US electoral system has ensured this. The way to fix the system is to elect those who want to change it for the better, not those who wish to destroy it and all it stands for.
Realistically until elections are over everyone has the same change of winning because ballot polls are hypothetical. Voting is not the only way you have to change things for good. The same way there's people advocating for corrupted parties you can waste your energies on something more useful.
Sure, every voter in the country could suddenly and radically change their minds about who to vote for, but we both know that isn't going to happen, because it's never happened. The only time that a third party has ever upset an established party is when the Republicans threw out the Whigs before the American Civil War. They did that through years of lead-up and messaging, along with a growing emancipation movement. You're not changing anyone's minds that radically this close to an election.
Believe it or not, I don't spend most of my day voting or responding to internet comments.
And as you smile smugly to yourself about your moral superiority for choosing philosophy over the unfortunate situation that is reality, women die due to lack of reasonable healthcare, minorities and those deemed "deviant" by fundamentalists are oppressed, and the genocide in Palestine is ramped up and overtly supported by American interests because the right doesn't do this kind of philosophical masturbation and thus handily wins the election.
Look, I want to see the end of the binary too, but only an ignorant person thinks you can win a race by being dropped off at the finish line and walking 2 steps. The end of the binary will not come from a surprise upset Presidential election out of nowhere. It just won't. Not today, not ever. If you actually give a shit about making a change and not just feeling above it all personally, you'd be out on the streets in non election years working to legitimize third party candidates in viable lower and local races where they can win and affect change outside the party system. And if you're somewhere where that has already happened, you'd be working with them to extend their reach, pushing their influence further. Or you'd be running locally as a third-party candidate yourself.
And if you are already doing that, first off thank you so much, but secondly, then you must understand what a difficult uphill battle the fight is and more importantly you must understand you can't just skip ahead to the finish line.
You mention that voting is not the only way to change things for good and you are absolutely right. Hell, I'd say it's not even one of the primary ways. But what voting is is one of the highest return on investment ways of effecting change; the amount of effect it takes to vote is beyond nominal, practically insignificant, yet the consequences have significant real world impact. Not smartly utilizing your vote is like being hungry in a cabin in the woods and taking a knife out hunt a wild boar for food when there is a literal ham sandwich in a ziploc bag in the fridge waiting for you.
I'm constantly working on local stuff, my vote has never made any kind of a difference - I live in an urban area jerrymandered to include as much of the suburbs as possible, they vote in lockstep to keep their taxes low and poors out. They are bipartisan about that. The local democratic committees are all just full of the family of people running for office and nobody with good politics has the time or energy to participate in the democratic party
I'm in a blue state, I've voted every year for decades, it's always felt like a waste of time. Any time I ask elected representatives about something they didn't already want to do they (or their staff) tell me to fuck off.
US libs value Americans© lifes more than us nonyanks. Well I'm ever asked the same question, I will not show any solidarity with them. I hope you guys get the civil war you started in so many foreign countries.
That's more of a general human trait than an American one. Yes, Americans are very fond of their exceptionalism, but valuing the lives of your own tribe and kin more than those of others is something most mammals share. I dont want war anywhere in the world. I hope you have a nice day.
Then please write your politician to tell them to force netanyahu to calm his tits.
My gf have friends in lebannon. She have friends from gaza. She hurts.
Please?
That's exactly the problem, no one can force Netanyahu to do anything. He's complety off his rocker. He's doing everything to stay in power, because the moment he's not, the courts will go after him. That's why he's trying to appease both those pushing for peace (Yes, I actually mean Biden here) and the warmongers (Israeli right wingers). Notice how he hasn't gotten all the hostages back? That's on purpose. The longer the war goes on, the better for him. Now, who do you rather want in the White House next year? A feeble old man who will go along with everything Bibi says? Or an experienced prosecutor who can put her foot down?
I'm sorry for your friends. They need to leave, now. If war came to my doorstep, that's what I would do.
Please. When the serbs did genocide the NATO bombed Belgrade. Kadhaffi was gone in a week. You're telling me the US doesn't have leverage against Israel? Come on now. Quit giving them weapons otherwise you guys are complicit, as simple as that.
I'd love to. Alas, all political power vested in me is in the form of a ballot. And I've already voted not to make the situation worse.
That's bullshit. That line of thinking makes you complicit with the atrocities committed in your name.
Voting is absolutely not the only way to make your voice heard. Quite the opposite. You ate the carrot, you're still obeying the farmer.
In my name? The only atrocities commited in my name are the ones I committed myself. And I certainly wouldn't call those atrocities.
Sure, I can go out and protest, which I do.
US government is supporting israel fascist government, they could have prevent the genocide by simply not arming israel to death and gifting them billions. They can still persuade israel government to stop by simply stopp aiding them but they are doing the opposite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war
I've done so, Peter Welch is solidly against genocide and Bernie Sanders is trying congressional wizardry to try and cut off arms shipments.
Yeah you guys have been trying for a year now. Maybe stop trying and do something.
Dude, I understand that America is fucking awful right now but don't bullshit about shit you don't understand... Some people are just paying lip service or stalling but Bernie is really fucking trying.
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-and-colleagues-move-to-block-arms-sales-to-israel/
I know he is mate but I do not believe the US governement will lift the pinky.
Admitting gaza is a ghetto would be admitting putting indians in reserves wasn't cool either
So no actual answer then?
Look I'd buy some nutella and spread it on the ballot. I want to pass a message but I'm classy like that.
Anyway nobody's asking me lmao fix your goddamn country.
Nobody asks you to fix America, they asked you what choice you would make.
Here are the options:
-You can vote for a candidate that represents 10,000 people dying
-You can vote for a candidate that represents 5,000 people dying
-You can abstain and guarantee that the candidate that represents 10,000 people dying wins.
These are your options. There are no other options. So maybe you value your own personal moral integrity more than the lives of 5,000 people, but any reasonable person will see that the second option is the only viable choice if you actually want to be decent.
edit: formating
I thought the reason why you guys had guns was for this kind of situation. Use them. A governement that gives you the choice between genocide and genocide sounds tyranical to me.
Cool man, you successfully recognized that class divide exists in the US just as much as anywhere else and that the ruling class are a minority whose decisions don't represent the working class. Kudos to you for your next-level observation skills!
Here's the thing though: even if we do spark up the fires of revolution tomorrow, you know what? It's probably gonna take more than a month. In the meantime, there is still going to be an American president and there is still going to be an election the fate of which will still have real world impact immediately, including in regards to the Palestinian genocide. Which means even if we're marching up on the White House in victory 8 months (imagining an impossibly best-case fictional scenario here) for now we still have the weight of the choice for President and the inordinate amount of very real lives that decision impacts, both domestically and abroad. So again, any decent person will make the moral choice for harm reduction; whether they acknowledge more needs to be on the personal level to solve the greater issues or not.
Stop letting your childish hateboner for America steal all the blood flow from your brain.
But I was about to hatecum :( meanie
Look I understand your pov. Just realize that from the outside it sounds like you're throwing the "third world" under the bus. Like everytime. US external policy never ceased to be shit so don't be suprised if foreigners are bothsidists.
Anyway stay safe.
Again, you've successfully recognized that America puts its own interests before the interests of foreign nations, same as everywhere else.
For all the shit the world likes to give America for acting like the world police or arbiters of society, rightly so btw, ya'll keep expecting America to act different too. If you think America is deceptive or evil or whatever in our attempts to be the world police, then just stop believing the lie. Don't expect America to be any more altruistic than any other nation and I think it all makes sense. Imo there is no "third world"; people are mostly the same everywhere. Every nation is selfish and every nation is dealing with some level of corruption - so why in the world would you begrudge the people of America for trying their hardest to at least do what they can to reduce the harmful impact of that corruption?
It's not my responsibility to fix your goddamn country. Stop supporting genocide.
Not your responsibility? Oh, okay. Then feel free to refrain from contributing to the conversation.
If you want your heavily censored american-only echo-chamber there's a website called reddit you could go to.
You sound upset, is everything okay?
Yes actually I got my daddy's guitar so I'm learnin how to play tunbalalaika like a true antisemite.
Are you implying the USA has a functional democracy whose actions follow the will of the people?
Fair point
Welcome to the real world. Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. It's terrible but it is also your best course of action.
Well the world will remember you guys voted for genocide :)
yep, and you voting for twice the amount of killing, when it wasn't necessary. History, what a bitch
I'm not voting, idiot. Not a yank.
If I was I would shit on the ballot.
Are you joking? The situation is dire when people are patting themselves on the back for a "slightly less painful genocide" whatever the hell that means in practice.
It's called accepting reality for what it is and doing your best with the plausible options available.
I.E. being an adult
The Adults In The Room are here to make Tough Decisions just like in muh TV slop and wouldn't you know it, those Tough Decisions involve slaughtering the poor and vulnerable for the benefit of the rich. Anyone who thinks wanton slaughter of the poor is bad, actually, is just a Whiny Child who Doesn't Understand muh Complexity and Nuance needs to Grow Up and Accept Reality, and anyway that's why we need to Kill All The
JewsPalestinians.Grow a fucking spine. Or a conscience. Or both. Grow up and stop looking for a grown up to tell you how the world has to work.
I know some adults. They have a heart.
You do not.
Being an adult means shutting up and taking it. Got it.
No, it means recognizing a shitty situation and working to make it less shitty - the "I won't vote for Harris because genocide" crowd are refusing to make a situation less shitty because they want the situation to not be shitty at all. Big problems don't have easy solutions - in this case we can all see what a good action would be (stopping any offensive arms sales to Isreal) but the political situation is such that that's not going to happen - we tried to make that happen and I'm deeply grateful to everyone who protested the DNC.
But, at the end of the day, Trump will accelerate the genocide. He's the worst outcome.
It means genocide but the bombs have pride flags instead of American flags, so completely different and if you disagree you're a Russian bot :3
Shame on you, you are complicit. You will go down in history as one of the person that supported this genocide.
Help make things better and stop supporting the government and parties who are fueling the genocide
Good news! You will too! You are a member of a society that is all participating. Just because you pretend like you have better morals by not actually participating in a meaningful way doesn't mean you aren't complicit. If someone is about to be murdered and you don't stop them because "you don't want to get your hand dirty" then you made a choice to do nothing. Doing nothing (or meaningfully nothing) doesn't keep you clean, it makes you complicit with anything that happens, not fighting against the worst possible outcome.
Don't confuse being a victim yourself of your authoritarian state wrongdoings with actively endorsing and supporting your government.
Not supporting fascists (israel government) or these behind them is a much more meaningful way to help things for good than directly endorsing and supporting them.
Kids are being murdered in gaza right now as we talk and what you are doing is advocating for the perpetrators, again shame on you.
What does not supporting them do? Give me an actual answer of how it effects them in a way that's different from you not existing at all.
Women are dying in the US because they can't get treatment for pregnancy related complications. Trans people are being denied Healthcare. People are starving and unhoused.
No matter what, everything won't be fixed. Even if you got to hand pick a perfect candidate, they wouldn't or couldn't fix everything. You always only have the choice between what the best outcome will be, not the perfect outcome. Not making a choice makes you a participant in whatever outcome others pick for you.
Shame on you if things get worse because you wanted to pretend moral superiority. Everyone who gets hurt or dies after this is on you (too). Actual morality is a little more complicated than what you're pretending. It's a very complex and diverse subject, and there really isn't black and white.
And you are advocating for the government in charge! Shame on you! If someone gets hurt you voted for it, don't you try to put the blame on others, you are supporting this shit more than everyone else
If you only see the choices where you don't sacrifice anything (between something prepared and served for you), you don't have a choice.
"Slightly less painful genocide" will not even be slightly less painful. But people there sacrifice lives, while you won't even sacrifice effort (and future efforts in court) to do something of a long list of actions which constitute political terrorism. You are not willing to even break law to defend people who are not being just abused, but murdered en masse in horrible ways.
Then you pretend with that cowardly logic that these are all choices you have, so you don't even want to take responsibility for choosing the easy and safe path of doing nothing.
Big words for a small man on the internet. Do you have receipts from your actions? I’d love to see them.
You don’t know me. You don’t know what I have or have not done. Voting and direct action are not mutually exclusive.
Not your business.
All I've said follows from your own comment.
Lol what a rebuttal!
Literally "no u"
Pot calling the kettle black a bit ain't ya.
I hope you do walk the walk to go along with your big talk, but take responsibility for your words too. Statements like yours gives people a reason to feel "good enough" about "slightly less genocide". And if we all keep repeating the mantra "slightly less genocide", we can feel "good enough" all the way to complete genocide.
Then we can all wear a big frown so everyone knows how upset we are about it.
Hey, I regularly do that... it usually happens after I've had too much taco bell but I leave those bathrooms looking like a war zone.
When people are getting firebombed by thousands in your name, you'd do well to at least dream day and night of firebombing anything near you.
She's someone I really want to deep dive, but I have never taken the time. Her monologue that begins at 1:24 minutes into this clip was my first exposure to her and I love that moment when you realize these awful examples she's citing are not just awful in their own right, but that they drive home her undeniable point at the end, in response to what sounds like it was a bullshit question.
She’s lived a really full life. Even her Wikipedia page is a good overview. She’s the type of activist a lot of keyboard warriors would like to pretend they are.
Did the wiki happen to mention the Marin County courthouse?
Yes. A pretty detailed write up as well. Seems like an easy thing to look up.
Yes, but then he couldn't be here just asking questions.
Can I be here just asking questions?
Sure you can, you don't need my permission. Will they be disingenuous questions or actual questions? :)
Met Angela in the Haight. She was with Katie Cleaver, Eldrige's wife. Amazing how one can quickly turn from helping murder people to a "political activist'. I don't think I need to look it up,
She explicitly did not help murder people. She was literally acquitted. Maybe you do need to look it up.
I know what happened.
Then you should have just opened with calling her a murderer instead of your rather coy question about the courthouse, as if somehow that event would have been omitted when it's a rather famous part of her history.
I didn't call her anything.
OK buddy. You were just asking questions right?
Did she buy guns?
Were those guns used in a murder?
Oh look you you can almost speak your point non-disingenuously after all.
You can think whatever you like of Angela Davis, that's not for me to decide (and despite multiple comments from you, I'm still not sure what that is), I just wish you wouldn't have tried so hard to coyly imply instead of stating it. Thanks for almost coming out and making a plain point.
As for me,
Shit's bleak
You forgot part of the quote.
I didn't forget it, shit's still bleak
The man who appointed Hitler wasn't a fascist.
Naive to expect Americans to know this. Or that "the man who appointed Hitler" was, despite formalities, a military dictator, and that the political opposition there got its share of extrajudicial executions, and political violence was normalized there before any kind of election success of Nazis. People don't like looking into details.
That the whole narrative of "good democracy turning fascist" in post-WWI Germany is bullshit - it wasn't really democracy.
But it was similar to most of the "flawed democracies" on our planet in our time, for which the narrative is that it's some new thing uncommon in history before USSR's breakup. So that narrative was intended to divert attention from similarities between Weimar Germany and those very profitable (for corrupt western politicians) partners.
But getting back to your parallel, it's correct. Kamala Harris is the "law & order & respectable establishment" type. She doesn't even promise solutions to actual problems, only to some symptoms, and those solutions seem like making fun of the general population.
Yeah he got democratically elected after he sent the brown shirt to intimidate everybody else and burned the parliement /s
Well he was elected, but got power after they and the second party outlawed the third party, bumping hitler over 50%.
Get your facts right.
He was elected after he sent the brown shirt thugs to intimidate everybody and did a false flag attack and set the parliement ablaze to arrest communists. I know we are neighbors.
What
The guy who appointed Hitler as chancellor was the "lesser evil" who was "the only way to stop Hitler."
The Venn diagram of the people who have an issue with this and the people who don't care that David Duke supports Trump is a circle
Funnily enough, he seems to not even support Trump anymore, because hes supposedly just endorsed Jill Stein
How random, you 3 have very similar name structures.
Thing, type of, animal
I think Owlbears are actually one creature, its a monster from dnd or something like that. Not that it really changes the observation much I suppose, since mine's referencing Ice-breathing dragons rather than ice and dragons separately anyway
No shit. I did find some reports confirming that, but none I trust enough to share.
NBC is reporting it, which makes it seem unlikely that it’s bullshit.
I could only find MSN aggregation of third rate sources (Times Now, The Spun, and Daily Beast).
Do you have a link?
Just gonna wait for the "Well actually...!" posts 🍿
Threads like this are good because they highlight the ignorance and the malice of people. Half of the people here have no idea who Marx is.
Yeah lets vote thirdparty instead to elect trump, amIright?
Let's study some history first buddy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital
You forgot Mein Kampf.
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Therefore it's okay that we send billions in support of genocide. Don't kid yourself, there will be no open space after your only leverage (your vote) is no longer needed. This is basic bargaining.
Waving around one person as an example of "one of the good ones" with this "real marxist" talk is disgusting. These slimebag politicians only care about your vote and you'll see no change after the election, just like how Obama won and then continued most of Bush's policies.
You remember Bush, right? The war criminal who led the country into two wars and the worst financial crisis since the great depression? Well he used to be the monster of the week, but now he's best buds with the democrats and trump is the new monster of the week. I'm sick of this dog and pony show.
But you see this one Marxist endorsed Kamala, clearly everything she does (including genocide, cracking down on protests, increasing fracking, compromising with fascists, and further expanding capitalist tyranny) is for the good of the workers :3