Probably should put some push bars on those ambulances and give them permission to get things out of the way.
Though it should be noted the root cause of the issue is car first infrastructure which likely contributed to the accident to begin with.
If ambulances were able and allowed to push other vehicles out of the way, then there would be a chance that Americans would leave a corridor in traffic jams to keep from getting shoved aside.
Win win.
Definitely.
Now that I think about it, a separate vehicle to do the shoving would save the patient from getting bumped around.
But then, there would need to be more ambulances following along to pick up people who get injured because all the imaginary cars getting shoved out of the way are occupied.
Fuck 'em. Let them die, and then we have less cars on the roads /j
People get out of the way for emergency vehicles where I'm from. I've seen what you're describing in NYC and I don't really like being grouped with them.
I think the person above is referring to the law in Germany (and maybe other EU countries?) where if traffic slows to a stop on a highway everyone pulls to the side (right lane to the right, left lane to the left) to leave a corridor down the center just in case an emergency vehicle comes. It's called Rettungsgasse.
It's just Mad Max enough to work by God
The ambulance apparently chose not to pass on the right in the lanes that were moving because of policy or something like that. I know where I live stopping where you are at is what you are supposed to do, so this one really seem slide it might be misleading anti self driving sensationalism.
It still has a long way to go, but stopping for emergency vehicles really sounds like it was working as designed to follow the laws.
Be interesting to see exactly what the traffic patterns looked like. There’s the set of driving regulations that generally say we should make way for emergency vehicles, but not if it requires ignoring another regulation. For example, if you’re stopped at a red light and an emergency vehicle approaches from behind, law says you wait for the light to turn green, then proceed when safe. Real drivers will run that light, hop a curb, make an illegal u-turn, etc. to make space, and nobodies going to get ticket for that, but it they are technically still violations.
I also think the comparison shouldn’t necessarily be against a typical driver, but a novice one, who doesn’t always respond correctly to an uncommon situation.
I noted that too. Sounds like corporate bullshit.
"Well, another lanes was moving so it could have gone around, also, if the patient had just taken an med flight helicopter this wouldn't have happened."
Like so what another lane is moving. Would the ambo have to back up and do a K turn to get around the glitched car?
This topic has come up at work several times. What's funny is each time it does everyone gets excited about the possibility of it happening to them on a critical call.
Our ambulances are built on 4x4 capable F-350 chassis and we're all union firefighters/medics. It feels like the 21st century version of "car blocking a hydrant".
It’s been shown the software is still not ready for production by interfering with emergency services, public transit, and normal traffic. These companies need to send these vehicles with a driver until the software is ironed out. We suspend human drivers for such actions. We must extend the same expectations and consequences to driverless vehicles.
If a human driver blocked an ambulance and caused a patient death, they'd be imprisoned for wrongful death. Cruise wants to roll out their software in this state, let them shoulder the legal and financial consequences.
This is a pretty good read. Tldr, they are already safer than your average driver.
They say their video evidence shows that the ambulance didn't egress when it could have, but they won't release the video publicly. I hope we get better self driving cars in the future, but not like this.
It's almost like AI isn't ready to be on the road and should be immediately taken off.
These cruise cars have been driving themselves before AI became a buzzword. Try again.
I know you're talking about the current AI hype cycle, but it was a buzzword in the 60s and again in the 80s.
Cruise has only existed as a company since 2013.
Google has had AI driving cars since roughly 2009.
This current batch of AI is only better in that it has data sets that are roughly 1000 to 10k times bigger, otherwise it's the same chatbot AI we've had for the last 15 years.
You sir or madam, are the one who has failed and needs to try again.
It’s only better in that it’s been trained to a greater degree and is generally better?
I just commented on this. Sounds like another lane was moving but that this car stopped right in front of the ambulance.
I wonder how many drivers block ambulances, a lot more than driverless cars do I wager
Seems like clickbait, stirred up by the fire department.
"This delay, no matter how minimal, contributed to a poor patient outcome," the fire department wrote.
This was written into what, the EMS call report ("records reviewed by the reporter")?
Generally EMS reports are not a place to opine as to medicolegal causation, so this is an odd detail to include. I think EMS would report an egregious failure to yield to police. They might note in the call sheet that a vehicle delayed the trip by X seconds, but the inclusion of specific blame is just so out of place.
Further, EMS is a profession of first aid, not pathology, epidemiology, and outcomes. Especially not without reviewing medical records of the subsequent treatment and outcome at the hospital, probably even medical records from prior the event, too, they are not competent to give such an opinion.
The statement itself proves my point. This delay, "no matter how miniminal, contributed to a poor patient outcome." Sounds like something an EMS driver would say. I'm reading hints of grandiosity and road rage, road indignation, really. Really, no matter how minimal? That's not logical. My $0.02.
As someone who works in emergency medicine, this article sounds very overdramatic. If the patient was so unstable they died receiving care in the back of an ambulance, odds are they weren't going to live in the hospital either
"Cruise's Origin is a purpose-built electric AV, built with no steering wheel or pedals for a human driver."
This isn't the AIs fault. Driver-less vehicles are meant to have passengers. If they don't, they should not be in traffic. The passengers should have the option to turn off auto-drive and get out of the way. Having a car without a steering wheel is like making a "fully-fully automatic gun: No trigger. It just shoots what it sees as people until it is out of bullets."
Maybe we need to uprise against the AI
I still say there's not enough benefit to justify replacing human drivers with these.
this brings up a good question. Can you sue the maker of these cars for wrongful death?
I get that "man bites dog" is more newsworthy, as they say. But can we stop a tick and internalize that a human driven car hit and killed someone, and we're talking about how it's the autonomous car's fault for adding a slight delay!
Give me a break. An ambulance being stuck in traffic by idiot drivers is nothing new. The autonomous cars may even kill people at a rate we're uncomfortable with. They're still gonna be better than humans. Humans are terrible drivers. Autonomous cars can't come soon enough, and yes, I say that even as someone who prefers transit. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
the autonomous car’s fault for adding a slight delay!
And, as suggested with a summary apparently taken from video evidence, the only car blocking the route cleared the area as soon as it was able. ... You know; like a human driver should (but, if you've ever seen the traffic to the tunnel in 07306 and heard the woop-wu-woop-woop DJ as he tries to remind drivers to GTFO of the way, you'd know they don't).
"On August 14 two Cruise AVs encountered an active emergency scene at an intersection in which a pedestrian had been hit by a human driven car. The first vehicle promptly clears the area once the light turns green and the other stops in the lane to yield to first responders who are directing traffic. Throughout the entire duration the AV is stopped, traffic remains unblocked and flowing to the right of the AV," Cruise said in a statement obtained by KRON-TV.
They’re still gonna be better than humans.
They aren't yet and once they are, we can stop having this discussion. Until then...
there sure are a lot of duplicate posts on lemmy
Everybody is blaming the driverless cars but who is blaming the ambulance for putting itself in that situation? A driverless car can’t be at fault, it always does what it should. Humans are the ones who make mistakes.
Probably should put some push bars on those ambulances and give them permission to get things out of the way.
Though it should be noted the root cause of the issue is car first infrastructure which likely contributed to the accident to begin with.
If ambulances were able and allowed to push other vehicles out of the way, then there would be a chance that Americans would leave a corridor in traffic jams to keep from getting shoved aside.
Win win.
Definitely. Now that I think about it, a separate vehicle to do the shoving would save the patient from getting bumped around.
But then, there would need to be more ambulances following along to pick up people who get injured because all the imaginary cars getting shoved out of the way are occupied.
Fuck 'em. Let them die, and then we have less cars on the roads /j
People get out of the way for emergency vehicles where I'm from. I've seen what you're describing in NYC and I don't really like being grouped with them.
I think the person above is referring to the law in Germany (and maybe other EU countries?) where if traffic slows to a stop on a highway everyone pulls to the side (right lane to the right, left lane to the left) to leave a corridor down the center just in case an emergency vehicle comes. It's called Rettungsgasse.
It's just Mad Max enough to work by God
The ambulance apparently chose not to pass on the right in the lanes that were moving because of policy or something like that. I know where I live stopping where you are at is what you are supposed to do, so this one really seem slide it might be misleading anti self driving sensationalism.
It still has a long way to go, but stopping for emergency vehicles really sounds like it was working as designed to follow the laws.
Be interesting to see exactly what the traffic patterns looked like. There’s the set of driving regulations that generally say we should make way for emergency vehicles, but not if it requires ignoring another regulation. For example, if you’re stopped at a red light and an emergency vehicle approaches from behind, law says you wait for the light to turn green, then proceed when safe. Real drivers will run that light, hop a curb, make an illegal u-turn, etc. to make space, and nobodies going to get ticket for that, but it they are technically still violations.
I also think the comparison shouldn’t necessarily be against a typical driver, but a novice one, who doesn’t always respond correctly to an uncommon situation.
I noted that too. Sounds like corporate bullshit.
"Well, another lanes was moving so it could have gone around, also, if the patient had just taken an med flight helicopter this wouldn't have happened."
Like so what another lane is moving. Would the ambo have to back up and do a K turn to get around the glitched car?
This topic has come up at work several times. What's funny is each time it does everyone gets excited about the possibility of it happening to them on a critical call.
Our ambulances are built on 4x4 capable F-350 chassis and we're all union firefighters/medics. It feels like the 21st century version of "car blocking a hydrant".
DAE fuCK cARS?!?!
Said it before, I'll say it again:
If a human driver blocked an ambulance and caused a patient death, they'd be imprisoned for wrongful death. Cruise wants to roll out their software in this state, let them shoulder the legal and financial consequences.
This is a pretty good read. Tldr, they are already safer than your average driver.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/09/are-self-driving-cars-already-safer-than-human-drivers/
It’s always Cruise. SF already cut their fleet by 50%, it’s only a matter of time until they’re off the road entirely.
They say their video evidence shows that the ambulance didn't egress when it could have, but they won't release the video publicly. I hope we get better self driving cars in the future, but not like this.
It's almost like AI isn't ready to be on the road and should be immediately taken off.
These cruise cars have been driving themselves before AI became a buzzword. Try again.
I know you're talking about the current AI hype cycle, but it was a buzzword in the 60s and again in the 80s.
Cruise has only existed as a company since 2013.
Google has had AI driving cars since roughly 2009.
This current batch of AI is only better in that it has data sets that are roughly 1000 to 10k times bigger, otherwise it's the same chatbot AI we've had for the last 15 years.
You sir or madam, are the one who has failed and needs to try again.
It’s only better in that it’s been trained to a greater degree and is generally better?
I just commented on this. Sounds like another lane was moving but that this car stopped right in front of the ambulance.
I wonder how many drivers block ambulances, a lot more than driverless cars do I wager
Seems like clickbait, stirred up by the fire department.
This was written into what, the EMS call report ("records reviewed by the reporter")?
Generally EMS reports are not a place to opine as to medicolegal causation, so this is an odd detail to include. I think EMS would report an egregious failure to yield to police. They might note in the call sheet that a vehicle delayed the trip by X seconds, but the inclusion of specific blame is just so out of place.
Further, EMS is a profession of first aid, not pathology, epidemiology, and outcomes. Especially not without reviewing medical records of the subsequent treatment and outcome at the hospital, probably even medical records from prior the event, too, they are not competent to give such an opinion.
The statement itself proves my point. This delay, "no matter how miniminal, contributed to a poor patient outcome." Sounds like something an EMS driver would say. I'm reading hints of grandiosity and road rage, road indignation, really. Really, no matter how minimal? That's not logical. My $0.02.
As someone who works in emergency medicine, this article sounds very overdramatic. If the patient was so unstable they died receiving care in the back of an ambulance, odds are they weren't going to live in the hospital either
"Cruise's Origin is a purpose-built electric AV, built with no steering wheel or pedals for a human driver."
This isn't the AIs fault. Driver-less vehicles are meant to have passengers. If they don't, they should not be in traffic. The passengers should have the option to turn off auto-drive and get out of the way. Having a car without a steering wheel is like making a "fully-fully automatic gun: No trigger. It just shoots what it sees as people until it is out of bullets."
Maybe we need to uprise against the AI
I still say there's not enough benefit to justify replacing human drivers with these.
this brings up a good question. Can you sue the maker of these cars for wrongful death?
I get that "man bites dog" is more newsworthy, as they say. But can we stop a tick and internalize that a human driven car hit and killed someone, and we're talking about how it's the autonomous car's fault for adding a slight delay!
Give me a break. An ambulance being stuck in traffic by idiot drivers is nothing new. The autonomous cars may even kill people at a rate we're uncomfortable with. They're still gonna be better than humans. Humans are terrible drivers. Autonomous cars can't come soon enough, and yes, I say that even as someone who prefers transit. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
And, as suggested with a summary apparently taken from video evidence, the only car blocking the route cleared the area as soon as it was able. ... You know; like a human driver should (but, if you've ever seen the traffic to the tunnel in 07306 and heard the woop-wu-woop-woop DJ as he tries to remind drivers to GTFO of the way, you'd know they don't).
They aren't yet and once they are, we can stop having this discussion. Until then...
there sure are a lot of duplicate posts on lemmy
Everybody is blaming the driverless cars but who is blaming the ambulance for putting itself in that situation? A driverless car can’t be at fault, it always does what it should. Humans are the ones who make mistakes.