Don't know about the USA, but here in Europe and in Arab/Muslim countries, lots and lots of people are out on the street, multiple times a week.
I do agree that this is the best strategy, but I just don't think we have enough of the population on our side.
Too many westerners value Jewish Israeli life more than that of a Palestinian.
In my country (Netherlands), Israeli bombings literally killed one of our citizens, after Israel had refused them exit out of Gaza. And our PM is silent.
Meanwhile, our government gave citizenship through a dubious legal procedure to an Israeli hostage who has a Dutch grandfather in order to give that boy a dual nationality.
We do not have equality in our country. Muslims are worth less than Jews here.
Israel intentionally bombed a US ship and killed 34 sailors. Instead of doing something about it we helped them cover it up. It's fucking crazy how much we let them get away with.
I think you're lying about the "covering up" bits of this story. Investigations into the incident started right away, with the Israeli Air Force claiming that they had mistaken the ship for an Egyptian battle ship. As a result, Israel agreed to pay compensation as mentioned in the article:
In May 1968, the Israeli government paid US$3.32 million (equivalent to US$28 million in 2022) to the U.S. government in compensation for the families of the 34 men killed in the attack. In March 1969, Israel paid a further $3.57 million ($28.5 million in 2022) to the men who had been wounded. In December 1980, it agreed to pay $6 million ($21.3 million in 2022) as the final settlement for material damage to the ship plus 13 years of interest.
The coverup is that it wasn’t an accident, the source is Haaretz
That's a conspiracy. It's not plausible at all why they would attack the US and then immediately agree to pay for compensation.
The BDSMovement has a great acronym
It's not genocide, it's self-defense /s
Why the /s ?
It's war. War has unfortunate and unavoidable casualties. Israel didn't choose this war and has done everything it can to avoid it. Including pulling out unilaterally from the entire Gaza Strip in 2005.
The Palestinians were left to govern themselves and elected Hamas. Hamas has received hundreds of millions of dollars in aid from all over the world, including Israel. Israel supplied water, electricity, gas, fuel and work permits in Israel. Yet, instead of Hamas choosing to build civilian infrastructure and help the Palestinians, the leaders embezzled millions and the cose to build rockets and terrorism infrastructure and pay terrorist salaries.
Israel stood by and watched the world turn a blind eye, again and again, to rockets being fired i to civilian populations. Name one country that would allow that to happen to them and wouldn't retaliate. We're done with the so-called "proportionate responses". What is the proportionate response to decapitated babies? To butchered toddlers? To kidnap and rape, and abduction of the elderly?
There is no peace to be made with an organization that lives up to it's charter claiming its intentions to kill you.
Israel and the Jewish people swore that the holocaust would never happen again.
Never again means never again.
Hamas is ISIS and needs to be eradicated.
Fuck off. 50% of the people in gaza are minors. Minors israel keeps killing. Israel has done nothing to prevent escalation. They steal more and more land and shoot people from the safety of their walls. Both sides in this conflict, the Israel government and Hamas are the exact same level of inhuman.
Israel has done nothing to prevent escalation.
And what exactly hamas did to prevent escalation?
They steal more and more land and shoot people from the safety of their walls.
What did you think white supremacist settler-colonialist states are all about, genius?
Also, yes.
So that's a yes... you want Palestinains to remain quiet while Israel perpetrates it's genocide.
What did you think white supremacist settler-colonialist states are all about, genius?
I mean they are clearly bad at extermination, seeing Palestinians population only increases all the recent years.
So that's a yes... you want Palestinains to remain quiet while Israel perpetrates it's genocide.
That's a no but a yes if you want. Feel free to do whatever you want (as hamas), build connections, improve your industries and society etc. But if you spend resources on nothing but building rockets and tunnels, you shouldn't be complaining that your actions are bringing death to your people. But then again, it seems you don't care about your own people if you do such a thing in the first place.
Not bringing death to your people is better than otherwise.
It looks like reddit is overtaken by zionist propaganda. Most of the upvoted posts on /r/worldnews are cheering for the murder of children.
Israel already killed more kids, on top of all the kids they killed this year, and they're still killing more.
Nobody over there cares. I think that site is done.
With how reddit told the blind community to sit on it and spin I'm not surprised it became a cesspool
Honestly, feels like the smarter portions of Reddit all migrated to lemmy.
Big sites like reddit are dominated by bots on these topics.
Not people.
Would you have the same response if it was said about the KKK?
Israel and the Jewish people swore that the holocaust would never happen again
Except it is with Israel as the perpetrators
Hamas is ISIS and needs to be eradicated
So what sort of solution are you proposing? A final one perhaps? Daesh and Hamas are not related, but I guess to racists all vaguely Muslim people are the same, eh?
Daesh and Hamas have the same agenda - killing everyone different than them. Decapitation, rape and indiscriminately murdering innocent families in their homes. Add to that the Muslim factor and you have your similarity. Both ISIS and Hamas are much more ghan "vaguely Muslim". Calling me a racist doesn't change those facts.
The solution is eradicating Hamas like ISIS was (mostly) eradicated. Did you cry racism when war was being waged against ISIS?
Riiiight... Palestinians "chose" this war by not blinking out of existence as soon as Europeans initiated a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project on the land the Palestinians happened to be living on.
Riiiiight.
This is an absurd exaggeration of the reality of the situation. This did not become a genocidal/apartheid situation until after 1948. There was an opportunity for peace in the UN partition plan, which would have required no one to "blink out of existence".
This is an absurd exaggeration of the reality of the situation.
No, the absurd exaggerations all belong to you and yours... the very idea of Israel was genocidal and white supremacist right off the bat - no different than any other white supremacist settler-colonialist project throughout the history of "western civilization." That is what Israel is a product of - it has never been anything else. It was born from the exact same ideologies that gave us the Belgian Congo, the white supremacist genocides in the Americas and the mass-slaughter of peoples in the Soviet Union for "lebensraum" during WW2.
And you and people like you are here for it, it seems.
What exactly do you mean by "you and yours" there buddy? Your view is simply ahistorical. Zionism differs from other forms of European nationalism in that it was not primarily motivated by supremacist rationalizations, but by the desire for safety. Intent is important. Today, I agree; Israeli treatment of Palestinians is clearly apartheid, and many Israeli actions are clearly genocidal under the UN definition. The further back into history you go, the less clear the situation gets, though, and is more accurately seen as a conflict between two nationalist movements in the wake of the Ottoman Empire's collapse wherein hard-line elements on both sides stoked conflict. There was a great amount of mutual respect and acceptance of Zionism among Arab leaders prior to the 1920s. I'd suggest you look up the Faisal-Weizmann agreement. The current conflict is a product of British mismanagement of Mandatory Palestine, and the initial failure of diplomacy in the face of racist, nationalist sentiments of BOTH Arabs and Zionist Jews.
“you and yours”
Oh, sorry... did I not make myself clear? You and yours refers to apologists for white supremacist settler-colonialism. Did that clear it up?
but by the desire for safety.
Bullcrap... I guess you didn't know that Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism, did you? Do tell, genius - was the original Zionists motivated by some (alleged) "desire for safety" or were they motivated by bog-standard western antisemitism?
Spoiler alert - it's not the former.
Today, I agree; Israeli treatment of Palestinians is clearly apartheid,
No - it isn't. Comparing Israel to Apartheid-South Africa is actually softballing it. The Apartheid-regime could only dream of doing the stuff Israel does on a regular basis and getting away with it. If the Apartheid-regime had treated Soweto the way Israel treats Gaza the Apartheid-regime's end would have come a whole lot sooner. It would have been a whole lot bloodier, too.
The current conflict is a product of British mismanagement of Mandatory Palestine
Again... bullcrap. I can literally google Ben-Gurion and produce a laundry list of his quotes that demolishes your argument - the white supremacist settler-colonialist state the Zionists wanted (both Christian and Jewish) was planned as a white supremacist settler-colonialist state right from the start. Birtish colonial mismanagement was only a temporary obstacle for them... that is it.
Bullcrap… I guess you didn’t know that Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism, did you?
It doesn't. The religious-academic roots of Zionism in both religions go way back. Jews were resettling from Europe to Ottoman Palestine in proto-Zionist migration as early as the 1500s.
No - it isn’t. Comparing Israel to Apartheid-South Africa is actually softballing it.
Well, then you should try reading the second part of that sentence before you have a heart attack from being so triggered.
I can literally google Ben-Gurion and produce a laundry list of his quotes that demolishes your argument
Yes, Ben Gurion is one of those hard-liners who is responsible for the deterioration of Arab-Jewish relations in the 1920s. I wouldn't go so far as to say his views represented the whole of Zionism prior to or during WWI. The situation was salvageable until Britain gave up.
Even Israeli historians will happily blow your garbage alt-history out of the water for you.
"The idea of the Jews returning to their ancient homeland as the first step to world redemption seems to have originated among a specific group of evangelical English Protestants that flourished in England in the 1840s; they passed this notion on to Jewish circles." - Anita Shapira
Even right-wing Israeli historians doesn't claim anything that can be called "proto-zionism" with a straight-face that existed before 1860, genius.
Well, then you should try reading the second part of that sentence
So which part of...
No - it isn’t. Comparing Israel to Apartheid-South Africa is actually softballing it.
...are you having a hard time comprehending?
Ben Gurion is one of those hard-liners
In other words... just a Zionist that was schooled in the white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism of "western civilization" - just another bog-standard colonizer who happened to be Jewish.
I guess you don't realize that there are a good portion of Israelis that are not white.
Immigrants from Arab countries, Ethiopia, India, and others. These Jews were persecuted in their countries and suffered from pogroms and murders against their population there. In a similar situation you would call anyone else "refugees" yet somehow these Jews are called colonists and white supremists?!
GTFO of here with that shit
Israel had segregated schools and was practicing eugenics on Ethiopian Jews in 2010 because it’s not a state for all Jews it’s a state for white Jews
I guess you don’t realize that there are a good portion of Israelis that are not white.
As a father of a soon-to-be-4-year-old, that picture tears me up inside. I can't fathom losing my son, especially not in this way. That goes for both sides of this fucking terrible thing.
This is the exact intention of this picture though. Hamas is notorious for staging photos and videos like this. You shouldn't trust terrorists.
Remove all context from that photo. That's what I see. Whether staged or not, children on both sides are experiencing these things. Once you become a parent, providing you wanted to be one intentionally, you see all children, not just your own, as innocence and any perception of grief for the loss of that child as personally identifiable and deeply felt. We, as a species and society, have lost our humanity if we look at a picture like that, no matter the context, and don't immediately feel sadness for the known innocence lost.
I say this unironically, but I pity you.
No need to lose humanity. But its better to not allow terrorist play with or use it to their advantage.
That's where we differ. It's our cold indifference, or our insufferable need to justify or define our world, that drives us to conclude that, "sure, the picture is sad, but what if this photo is staged to garner sympathy for terrorists." To me, I don't have to believe anything about the context to know how distraught I'd be as a parent in that situation. I don't need to know if it is or isn't doctored to gain support, be it for the state of Israel or Hamas.
I see a man, could be a father, could be a stock photo (it matters not), holding a child (or large sweet potato for all I know) wrapped in cloth, and I'm moved to tears because I can put myself in that place, in that moment, in that grief. I can acknowledge that the photo I'm seeing may not be legitimate, but that doesn't make it less likely to represent real fathers mourning the loss of their child and how I would feel in that moment; how absolutely devastated I would be; how I wish for all of it to end.
That's empathy, my friend. It doesn't see sides. It doesn't push agendas. I can feel that empathy strongly, mourn with that man intensely, and grieve with the very real fathers who have had to bury their innocence, whether this photo is real or not.
I want you to know, I did not down-vote your comment(s). I understand that this whole conflict, situation, and world sucks. All I can do is hope for a peaceful resolution while I hold my child for all the fathers who no longer can.
It doesn't push agendas.
Maybe you mean it for yourself, but it doesn't apply to everyone, see various protests after hamas dropped information about hospital bombing.
You're right. No one should trust the IDF. War crime after war crime. They're the worst plague on the planet since Isis, but actually have the backing of major world powers because they got their guys to weasel into the top of every nation's government.
Anyone speaking out against their narrative, from the UN to newspapers are being cancelled.
These are Gazans. They're not trained Hollywood actors dude. Look at the grief on their faces. That's REAL. If it's not real in this picture (for whatever reason), it's real in thousands more. The stats alone show how many people have had to hold their dead children in their arms like this.
It's disgusting. It's Genocide. No people who suffered at the hands of Nazis in WWII, should ever perpetrate this kind of hell on someone else. Israel has forgotten everything. Their ancestors would be ashamed.
but actually have the backing of major world powers because they got their guys to weasel into the top of every nation's government.
So they found something that works for them. It's better than building nothing but rockets.
These are Gazans. They're not trained Hollywood actors dude.
Oh. I'm sure both celebration of launching missiles and tears of receiving them back are sincere.
No people who suffered at the hands of Nazis in WWII, should ever perpetrate this kind of hell on someone else. Israel has forgotten everything. Their ancestors would be ashamed.
Palestinians should have not attacked Israel in the first place. They forget each time this happens that it only brings more tears. Their god is already sad by their attempts that only hurt themselves, and maybe doesn't even approve.
Like if there's any doubt that children are among the victims of Israel im this very momemt. Some people have no shame.
These are victims of hamas and its actions in the first place. Israel's attacks are not unprovoked. Even though it sucks to know people are dying, context is important to understand better why it happened and how similar stuff could be solved.
Yeah the context is Israel as an apartheid state. Forgot that part I guess..
What's really funny is the rethoric of Israel as the soirce of security for all Jews - only has been for decadea the biggest reason why Jews are attacked all around world.
The irony.
So it's apartheid state vs terrorist state?
Fuck it. Assume I agree Israel are bloody monsters who want to enslave everyone around. This doesn't change my message to hamas: "stop building rockets, you idiots, whenever you use them you only get more Palestinians killed".
I'm afraid you are greatly underestimating that assumption my dear.
Anything you might have to say about Israel does not change what I said to hamas idiots even a bit. It's not about Israel, it's about idiots and their poor choices. They are incapable of managing their own lives effectively and don't care about Palestinians' lives either.
No one is defending Hamas here. Are you talking alone?
Would you really like to exchange videos like that? I can drop you stuff with Palestinians being happy firing rockets, staging scenes for false victim reports etc.
In the end, it's all about doing what's better for your people or not, being terrorists or not. Hamas are very much below what anyone would call "adequate". Israel is nothing like that.
Would you really like to exchange videos like that?
Do you have any videos showing a massively-funded, western-backed military machine bombing Israeli hospitals and refugee camps filled with Israeli people?
Sure... go ahead!
And do you have videos showing how firing rockets at Israel actually helped Palestinians achieve anything good?
This attack by Hamas has done a lot to widen the cracks appearing in the west's pro-Israel propaganda effort - the fact that you are here trying (and failing) to patch the gigantic holes in that sinking propganda ship is proof.
So it was worth it to kill that many people and you don't have issues with it? So you support such aggression?
So it was worth it to kill that many people
Oh, look... another white supremacist that only started caring when Israelis started dying! You sure came out of the woodwork when that happened, didn't you?
So you support such aggression?
I am perfectly fine with the colonized defending themselves from colonizers using all means available to them.
Your thinly-veiled pearl-clutching is fooling less and less people these days, isn't it?
Oh, look... another white supremacist that only started caring when Israelis started dying! You sure came out of the woodwork when that happened, didn't you?
Where were exactly those people, who look like they care about Palestinians, all these years? It almost looks like they started dying just recently too.
I am perfectly fine with the colonized defending themselves from colonizers using all means available to them.
I'm, too, perfectly fine with people performing mass suicide and making lives of their fellow citizens worse as the only result. I just can't help calling them stupid for that.
Where were exactly those people, who look like they care about Palestinians, all these years?
Oh, you're only hearing them now and that must mean they didn't exist before, eh? Just where did you think BDS comes from?
perfectly fine with people performing mass suicide
Didn't take you very long, did it, white supremacist?
Oh, you're only hearing them now and that must mean they didn't exist before, eh? Just where did you think BDS comes from?
They did a very good job being loud and relevant probably. It's just my mistake for not noticing their existence.
Didn't take you very long, did it, white supremacist?
What does that even mean? My reaction to people performing suicides does not depend on colors.
If you can call people who prefer life over death "supremacists", then yeah I'm pretty much that. Wish everyone could become supremacists. I hope people can get educated, if not about history then at least about logic, so they could avoid such mistakes.
Do Hamas claims require independent confirmation, or only Israeli ones?
Excellent point. I propose a cease fire so international observers can enter Gaza to verify these claims.
Just like with the Ukraine-Russia war, both sides are going to be lying and we won't have a clear picture of what's going on for a long time.
Pretty much anyone who 100% believes one side is an idiot that doesn't understand propaganda in war. I don't think that's most people, though.
We've known that Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonial project since 1949 - I'd say seventy plus years qualifies as "a long time" in this regard.
Downplaying the casualties is straight out of the holocaust denial playbook
I'm not saying the 6 million number is wrong I'm just asking for evidence?
Is it easier to see what WidowsFavoriteSon is doing now that I flipped it around? It's called JAQing off
The point is to ask what sound like reasonable questions but in reality you're just trying to sew uncertainty for others. Check WidowsFavoriteSon's history, they're not asking in good faith.
Information about occupation and conflict-related casualties is regularly collected by OCHA field staff and entered into OCHA’s Protection of Civilians database, following review and verification. As a rule, for an incident to be entered into the database it needs to be validated by at least two independent and reliable sources. Exceptions to this rule include incidents resulting in Israeli injuries, where information is typically based on media reports.
And the fact that this line of questioning exactly mirrors holocaust denialism is gross. I know, har har, godwin's law; but it's really the same fucking thing. I would bet money that it's not an accident.
Well the post history does pull the rug from under me haha
If Israel wanted to end this they could. They'd get their hostages back and they'd get to mourn their dead.
Instead they immediately moved to starve millions of people to spite, what Wikipedia claims is (ie. a likely exaggerated) 20,000 Hamas members, of which Israel can only count one to be officially killed by their actions so far.
They're now talking of a "final solution" for the "palestine problem". Half are already homeless, trapped beside the border crossings that israel bombs if not to their liking. How long until Israel is either allowed to enact their "final solution" or instigates a regional conflict between countries trying to prevent that?
Hamas could end the suffering if they cared about Palestinians, by surrendering.
Hope the millions who will die in the following days make you feel fulfilled that you chose this mindset. History will not absolve you.
History should have teached Palestinians a lesson or two about aggression and terrorism. They should have understood they will only hurt themselves with those.
If only Saudi Arabia didn't want a civilian nuclear program.
What am I talking about? Saudi Arabia was about to sign a defense agreement with the United States that would have allowed them to have a civilian nuclear program and enter into a defense pact with the United States. The only condition placed on Saudi Arabia was that they had to normalize relations with Israel. Iran didn't like this, because they're biggest competitor in the region was Saudi Arabia. If only there was a way to keep Saudi Arabia from normalizing relations with Israel. I wonder what Iran could have done to prevent that...
Convenient coincidence, but Qatar has been shoveling money towards Hamas for years
Did Israel catch up to killing innocent people like Hamas did yet?
This is simply disgusting and utterly unjustifiable. Yes a nation has the right to defend itself - when it's under attack as it was by Hamas two weeks ago. Once the attack is over, going into Gaza and blatantly murdering people is no longer "defense," it is sick and perverted retaliation - a chance for mentally ill men to go use their sick weapons to kill, hurt, maim, torture, destroy, wound, and obliterate. Give them weapons, men will always invent (completely erroneous) reasons to use them againt innocent civilians. SHAME AND DAMNATION ON EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS WAR.
Both men and women serve in the Israeli military.
Also quit making this about your virtue signaling. There's real people suffering and you're not the lone voice in the wind.
Join a war protest. Donate to Amnesty International. Get involved if you care to do more than shame people who will never read your posts while proclaiming on social media how virtuous you are.
Was going to let this slide. But once I saw you had posted twice in this thread, I couldn't. For the sake of myself and everyone else that reads your comments.
Thanks
Wow I really pressed your buttons, and that was the entire aim of my post. Glad it got this reaction.
I don't believe it. The tone was holier than thou. Not rage bait.
But if you'd prefer to be thought of as a troll, more power to you.
Better to be thought of as a troll than to be thought of as a belligerent asshole like yourself. Sorry, but that's how you come across and you seem extremely unhappy. I hope things get better for you and you can't quit being so small minded.
This isn't a fucking game where you take turns.
Retaliatory actions that prevent the next attack ARE self defense.
"Once the attck is over" - gtfo of here with that shit. Like you can actually say, "Oh, they pressed pause. Let's all go back home until they unpause"
I certainly pressed your buttons and I'm glad I did. You have a lot of problems, and that's very evident. You might want to work on that quick to anger reflexive attitude.
Yes a nation has the right to defend itself
Yes, let's pretend a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project has the right to "defend" itself from the people it has actively sought to exterminate since 1949.
Any israelis or palestinians who engage in this war, for terrorist reasons, retaliation, or just for the sick thrill they get from killing children, is a total monster and to blame in every way with no exception. And all who participate, will burn in hell for the rest of eternity without exception and in every possible way. I am a lone voice screaming the horror of this war mentality into the wind. War is not a justifiable response to ANYTHING. And it never can be. But most especially, it cannot be justified by any group claiming to have any actual religious ideals of any kind.
6/10 - like the drama you put into it but I think overall there is not enough Iam14AndThisIsDeep.
Yeah, seems like the kind of thing that would be upvoted way more on reddit.
There is no hell, and that is the problem; those fighting believe in it.
This isn't a religious war. Even Hamas rewrote their charter in 2017 to specify that their resistance is against the Israeli state and not Judaism, and ended their relationship with the muslim brotherhood.
Sure many are religious and fundamentalists, but the majority Palestinian resistance is resisting because of colonialism and apartheid, not because a cleric has demanded it holy to do so.
As a Jew, I'd like you to know we don't have the concept of hell.
The afterlife is pretty simple, if you lived as a good Jew (they aren't) you live with God. If you live as a bad Jew, you live without God. That's really about it.
That's the Christian heaven and hell as I understand them too. From when I was being taught from someone who had studied the scripture, as a theologian, in an intense historical and philosophical way said the only canon Christians have on hell is that it is living without god. A lot of the imagery of Christian hell is about as biblically supported as Santa Claus. I could be wrong but that man knew more about Every Abrahamic religion than anyone id ever conversed with, and plenty of non Abrahamic ones too.
Interesting I actually didn't know that. One of the unfortunate parts of growing up with a bible thumper Christian step mom is you don't actually learn the bible, you get told bullshit that isn't true.
Hell was straight up stolen from the norse mythology, they kept the name and everything.
I like that concept. I happen to be atheistic, but I've worked with professors who were of the Jewish faith and helped serve and prepare food in their congregation and I love the people and their generosity. I've yet to encounter anyone of the Jewish faith I would call a bad person (but I'm not saying they aren't out there, there are some in every tenet and faith). Thanks for the clarification!!
You're very welcome!
Fun fact, you'll meet plenty of Jews who are atheistic as well. There's a running joke in the community "ahh yes the time honored Jewish tradition of atheism."
Without getting too personal, I'm actually agnostic. At least I think that's the proper term. I don't wonder if God exists, I wonder if it matters if God exists.
That is funny - "the time honored Jewish tradition of atheism." X ). I'm actually more agnostic myself, but my atheist friends think I'm just "hedging my bet" by not committing. It isn't so much that I am on the fence, but rather, that I have always had an unshakable sense that something larger and greater in power (but unknowable to us) IS out there - not sure what to call it, and whether someone calls it god or not, there is a force to be reckoned with that is overarching and shaping the universe, which to me is something that matters.
Well I agree with you totally - I don't personally believe in heaven or hell or any of that nonsense, but you would think that groups that DO believe in hell would try their best not to end up in it.
If you want to do something get out on the streets. South African apartheid fell with the help of international pressure.
Also you can boycott israeli goods.
https://bdsmovement.net
Don't know about the USA, but here in Europe and in Arab/Muslim countries, lots and lots of people are out on the street, multiple times a week.
I do agree that this is the best strategy, but I just don't think we have enough of the population on our side.
Too many westerners value Jewish Israeli life more than that of a Palestinian.
In my country (Netherlands), Israeli bombings literally killed one of our citizens, after Israel had refused them exit out of Gaza. And our PM is silent.
Meanwhile, our government gave citizenship through a dubious legal procedure to an Israeli hostage who has a Dutch grandfather in order to give that boy a dual nationality.
We do not have equality in our country. Muslims are worth less than Jews here.
Israel intentionally bombed a US ship and killed 34 sailors. Instead of doing something about it we helped them cover it up. It's fucking crazy how much we let them get away with.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident?wprov=sfla1
I think you're lying about the "covering up" bits of this story. Investigations into the incident started right away, with the Israeli Air Force claiming that they had mistaken the ship for an Egyptian battle ship. As a result, Israel agreed to pay compensation as mentioned in the article:
The coverup is that it wasn’t an accident, the source is Haaretz
That's a conspiracy. It's not plausible at all why they would attack the US and then immediately agree to pay for compensation.
The BDSMovement has a great acronym
It's not genocide, it's self-defense /s
Why the /s ?
It's war. War has unfortunate and unavoidable casualties. Israel didn't choose this war and has done everything it can to avoid it. Including pulling out unilaterally from the entire Gaza Strip in 2005.
The Palestinians were left to govern themselves and elected Hamas. Hamas has received hundreds of millions of dollars in aid from all over the world, including Israel. Israel supplied water, electricity, gas, fuel and work permits in Israel. Yet, instead of Hamas choosing to build civilian infrastructure and help the Palestinians, the leaders embezzled millions and the cose to build rockets and terrorism infrastructure and pay terrorist salaries.
Israel stood by and watched the world turn a blind eye, again and again, to rockets being fired i to civilian populations. Name one country that would allow that to happen to them and wouldn't retaliate. We're done with the so-called "proportionate responses". What is the proportionate response to decapitated babies? To butchered toddlers? To kidnap and rape, and abduction of the elderly? There is no peace to be made with an organization that lives up to it's charter claiming its intentions to kill you. Israel and the Jewish people swore that the holocaust would never happen again.
Never again means never again.
Hamas is ISIS and needs to be eradicated.
Fuck off. 50% of the people in gaza are minors. Minors israel keeps killing. Israel has done nothing to prevent escalation. They steal more and more land and shoot people from the safety of their walls. Both sides in this conflict, the Israel government and Hamas are the exact same level of inhuman.
And what exactly hamas did to prevent escalation?
When did that happen last time?
Are you talking about this?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this?
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
No, I mean the "stealing land" thing.
Oh deary, deary me... my bad.
Here it is.
Thanks.
And how exactly does this make it okay to attack Israel to get more Palestinians killed as the only result?
Sooo... Palestinains should just be quiet while they are exterminated, eh? Is that what you're peddling?
Your map shows 2005 as the last date. What exactly happened in the last 20 years that you think can be described as "Palestinians extermination"?
Also, yes. If you have a choice of 2 routes and one of them is "have more people killed" you would be a fool to not chose a different route.
https://youtu.be/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=V2aWKAbciTeLlNYm
It’s ongoing
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/KNqozQ8uaV8?si=V2aWKAbciTeLlNYm
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
What did you think white supremacist settler-colonialist states are all about, genius?
So that's a yes... you want Palestinains to remain quiet while Israel perpetrates it's genocide.
I mean they are clearly bad at extermination, seeing Palestinians population only increases all the recent years.
That's a no but a yes if you want. Feel free to do whatever you want (as hamas), build connections, improve your industries and society etc. But if you spend resources on nothing but building rockets and tunnels, you shouldn't be complaining that your actions are bringing death to your people. But then again, it seems you don't care about your own people if you do such a thing in the first place.
Not bringing death to your people is better than otherwise.
Consider reading or listening to this on the question of moral equivalence:
https://www.samharris.org/blog/the-sin-of-moral-equivalence
modern day nazi propaganda
Glad we're able to see it for what it is.
It looks like reddit is overtaken by zionist propaganda. Most of the upvoted posts on /r/worldnews are cheering for the murder of children.
Israel already killed more kids, on top of all the kids they killed this year, and they're still killing more.
Nobody over there cares. I think that site is done.
With how reddit told the blind community to sit on it and spin I'm not surprised it became a cesspool
Honestly, feels like the smarter portions of Reddit all migrated to lemmy.
Big sites like reddit are dominated by bots on these topics.
Not people.
Would you have the same response if it was said about the KKK?
Except it is with Israel as the perpetrators
So what sort of solution are you proposing? A final one perhaps? Daesh and Hamas are not related, but I guess to racists all vaguely Muslim people are the same, eh?
Daesh and Hamas have the same agenda - killing everyone different than them. Decapitation, rape and indiscriminately murdering innocent families in their homes. Add to that the Muslim factor and you have your similarity. Both ISIS and Hamas are much more ghan "vaguely Muslim". Calling me a racist doesn't change those facts.
The solution is eradicating Hamas like ISIS was (mostly) eradicated. Did you cry racism when war was being waged against ISIS?
Get off your high horse
Riiiight... Palestinians "chose" this war by not blinking out of existence as soon as Europeans initiated a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project on the land the Palestinians happened to be living on.
Riiiiight.
This is an absurd exaggeration of the reality of the situation. This did not become a genocidal/apartheid situation until after 1948. There was an opportunity for peace in the UN partition plan, which would have required no one to "blink out of existence".
No, the absurd exaggerations all belong to you and yours... the very idea of Israel was genocidal and white supremacist right off the bat - no different than any other white supremacist settler-colonialist project throughout the history of "western civilization." That is what Israel is a product of - it has never been anything else. It was born from the exact same ideologies that gave us the Belgian Congo, the white supremacist genocides in the Americas and the mass-slaughter of peoples in the Soviet Union for "lebensraum" during WW2.
And you and people like you are here for it, it seems.
What exactly do you mean by "you and yours" there buddy? Your view is simply ahistorical. Zionism differs from other forms of European nationalism in that it was not primarily motivated by supremacist rationalizations, but by the desire for safety. Intent is important. Today, I agree; Israeli treatment of Palestinians is clearly apartheid, and many Israeli actions are clearly genocidal under the UN definition. The further back into history you go, the less clear the situation gets, though, and is more accurately seen as a conflict between two nationalist movements in the wake of the Ottoman Empire's collapse wherein hard-line elements on both sides stoked conflict. There was a great amount of mutual respect and acceptance of Zionism among Arab leaders prior to the 1920s. I'd suggest you look up the Faisal-Weizmann agreement. The current conflict is a product of British mismanagement of Mandatory Palestine, and the initial failure of diplomacy in the face of racist, nationalist sentiments of BOTH Arabs and Zionist Jews.
Oh, sorry... did I not make myself clear? You and yours refers to apologists for white supremacist settler-colonialism. Did that clear it up?
Bullcrap... I guess you didn't know that Christian Zionism predates Jewish Zionism, did you? Do tell, genius - was the original Zionists motivated by some (alleged) "desire for safety" or were they motivated by bog-standard western antisemitism?
Spoiler alert - it's not the former.
No - it isn't. Comparing Israel to Apartheid-South Africa is actually softballing it. The Apartheid-regime could only dream of doing the stuff Israel does on a regular basis and getting away with it. If the Apartheid-regime had treated Soweto the way Israel treats Gaza the Apartheid-regime's end would have come a whole lot sooner. It would have been a whole lot bloodier, too.
Again... bullcrap. I can literally google Ben-Gurion and produce a laundry list of his quotes that demolishes your argument - the white supremacist settler-colonialist state the Zionists wanted (both Christian and Jewish) was planned as a white supremacist settler-colonialist state right from the start. Birtish colonial mismanagement was only a temporary obstacle for them... that is it.
It doesn't. The religious-academic roots of Zionism in both religions go way back. Jews were resettling from Europe to Ottoman Palestine in proto-Zionist migration as early as the 1500s.
Well, then you should try reading the second part of that sentence before you have a heart attack from being so triggered.
Yes, Ben Gurion is one of those hard-liners who is responsible for the deterioration of Arab-Jewish relations in the 1920s. I wouldn't go so far as to say his views represented the whole of Zionism prior to or during WWI. The situation was salvageable until Britain gave up.
Even Israeli historians will happily blow your garbage alt-history out of the water for you.
"The idea of the Jews returning to their ancient homeland as the first step to world redemption seems to have originated among a specific group of evangelical English Protestants that flourished in England in the 1840s; they passed this notion on to Jewish circles." - Anita Shapira
Even right-wing Israeli historians doesn't claim anything that can be called "proto-zionism" with a straight-face that existed before 1860, genius.
So which part of...
...are you having a hard time comprehending?
In other words... just a Zionist that was schooled in the white supremacism, antisemitism and colonialism of "western civilization" - just another bog-standard colonizer who happened to be Jewish.
I guess you don't realize that there are a good portion of Israelis that are not white.
Immigrants from Arab countries, Ethiopia, India, and others. These Jews were persecuted in their countries and suffered from pogroms and murders against their population there. In a similar situation you would call anyone else "refugees" yet somehow these Jews are called colonists and white supremists?!
GTFO of here with that shit
Israel had segregated schools and was practicing eugenics on Ethiopian Jews in 2010 because it’s not a state for all Jews it’s a state for white Jews
Are you sure you realize that?
Gee whiz... black folk protesting because of white supremacist harrassment - I wonder why that sounds so familiar? Can't quite put my finger on it...
No. You take your white supremacist colonialist apologia and shove it where the sun don't shine, fascist.
As a father of a soon-to-be-4-year-old, that picture tears me up inside. I can't fathom losing my son, especially not in this way. That goes for both sides of this fucking terrible thing.
Children. Are. Not. Acceptable. Collateral. Damage.
This is the exact intention of this picture though. Hamas is notorious for staging photos and videos like this. You shouldn't trust terrorists.
Remove all context from that photo. That's what I see. Whether staged or not, children on both sides are experiencing these things. Once you become a parent, providing you wanted to be one intentionally, you see all children, not just your own, as innocence and any perception of grief for the loss of that child as personally identifiable and deeply felt. We, as a species and society, have lost our humanity if we look at a picture like that, no matter the context, and don't immediately feel sadness for the known innocence lost.
I say this unironically, but I pity you.
No need to lose humanity. But its better to not allow terrorist play with or use it to their advantage.
That's where we differ. It's our cold indifference, or our insufferable need to justify or define our world, that drives us to conclude that, "sure, the picture is sad, but what if this photo is staged to garner sympathy for terrorists." To me, I don't have to believe anything about the context to know how distraught I'd be as a parent in that situation. I don't need to know if it is or isn't doctored to gain support, be it for the state of Israel or Hamas.
I see a man, could be a father, could be a stock photo (it matters not), holding a child (or large sweet potato for all I know) wrapped in cloth, and I'm moved to tears because I can put myself in that place, in that moment, in that grief. I can acknowledge that the photo I'm seeing may not be legitimate, but that doesn't make it less likely to represent real fathers mourning the loss of their child and how I would feel in that moment; how absolutely devastated I would be; how I wish for all of it to end.
That's empathy, my friend. It doesn't see sides. It doesn't push agendas. I can feel that empathy strongly, mourn with that man intensely, and grieve with the very real fathers who have had to bury their innocence, whether this photo is real or not.
I want you to know, I did not down-vote your comment(s). I understand that this whole conflict, situation, and world sucks. All I can do is hope for a peaceful resolution while I hold my child for all the fathers who no longer can.
Maybe you mean it for yourself, but it doesn't apply to everyone, see various protests after hamas dropped information about hospital bombing.
@rdri @mjhelto right
You're right. No one should trust the IDF. War crime after war crime. They're the worst plague on the planet since Isis, but actually have the backing of major world powers because they got their guys to weasel into the top of every nation's government.
Anyone speaking out against their narrative, from the UN to newspapers are being cancelled.
These are Gazans. They're not trained Hollywood actors dude. Look at the grief on their faces. That's REAL. If it's not real in this picture (for whatever reason), it's real in thousands more. The stats alone show how many people have had to hold their dead children in their arms like this.
It's disgusting. It's Genocide. No people who suffered at the hands of Nazis in WWII, should ever perpetrate this kind of hell on someone else. Israel has forgotten everything. Their ancestors would be ashamed.
So they found something that works for them. It's better than building nothing but rockets.
Oh. I'm sure both celebration of launching missiles and tears of receiving them back are sincere.
Palestinians should have not attacked Israel in the first place. They forget each time this happens that it only brings more tears. Their god is already sad by their attempts that only hurt themselves, and maybe doesn't even approve.
Like if there's any doubt that children are among the victims of Israel im this very momemt. Some people have no shame.
These are victims of hamas and its actions in the first place. Israel's attacks are not unprovoked. Even though it sucks to know people are dying, context is important to understand better why it happened and how similar stuff could be solved.
Yeah the context is Israel as an apartheid state. Forgot that part I guess.. What's really funny is the rethoric of Israel as the soirce of security for all Jews - only has been for decadea the biggest reason why Jews are attacked all around world.
The irony.
So it's apartheid state vs terrorist state?
Fuck it. Assume I agree Israel are bloody monsters who want to enslave everyone around. This doesn't change my message to hamas: "stop building rockets, you idiots, whenever you use them you only get more Palestinians killed".
I'm afraid you are greatly underestimating that assumption my dear.
Anything you might have to say about Israel does not change what I said to hamas idiots even a bit. It's not about Israel, it's about idiots and their poor choices. They are incapable of managing their own lives effectively and don't care about Palestinians' lives either.
No one is defending Hamas here. Are you talking alone?
Nah, some people really do it here.
Yeah... let's trust these people instead.
Would you really like to exchange videos like that? I can drop you stuff with Palestinians being happy firing rockets, staging scenes for false victim reports etc.
In the end, it's all about doing what's better for your people or not, being terrorists or not. Hamas are very much below what anyone would call "adequate". Israel is nothing like that.
Do you have any videos showing a massively-funded, western-backed military machine bombing Israeli hospitals and refugee camps filled with Israeli people?
Sure... go ahead!
And do you have videos showing how firing rockets at Israel actually helped Palestinians achieve anything good?
This attack by Hamas has done a lot to widen the cracks appearing in the west's pro-Israel propaganda effort - the fact that you are here trying (and failing) to patch the gigantic holes in that sinking propganda ship is proof.
So it was worth it to kill that many people and you don't have issues with it? So you support such aggression?
Oh, look... another white supremacist that only started caring when Israelis started dying! You sure came out of the woodwork when that happened, didn't you?
I am perfectly fine with the colonized defending themselves from colonizers using all means available to them.
Your thinly-veiled pearl-clutching is fooling less and less people these days, isn't it?
Where were exactly those people, who look like they care about Palestinians, all these years? It almost looks like they started dying just recently too.
I'm, too, perfectly fine with people performing mass suicide and making lives of their fellow citizens worse as the only result. I just can't help calling them stupid for that.
Oh, you're only hearing them now and that must mean they didn't exist before, eh? Just where did you think BDS comes from?
Didn't take you very long, did it, white supremacist?
They did a very good job being loud and relevant probably. It's just my mistake for not noticing their existence.
What does that even mean? My reaction to people performing suicides does not depend on colors.
If you can call people who prefer life over death "supremacists", then yeah I'm pretty much that. Wish everyone could become supremacists. I hope people can get educated, if not about history then at least about logic, so they could avoid such mistakes.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
these
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Do Hamas claims require independent confirmation, or only Israeli ones?
Excellent point. I propose a cease fire so international observers can enter Gaza to verify these claims.
Just like with the Ukraine-Russia war, both sides are going to be lying and we won't have a clear picture of what's going on for a long time.
Pretty much anyone who 100% believes one side is an idiot that doesn't understand propaganda in war. I don't think that's most people, though.
We've known that Israel is a white supremacist settler-colonial project since 1949 - I'd say seventy plus years qualifies as "a long time" in this regard.
Downplaying the casualties is straight out of the holocaust denial playbook
https://www.museumoftolerance.com/education/teacher-resources/holocaust-resources/what-is-holocaust-denial.html#4
Did they downplay anything though?
Is it easier to see what WidowsFavoriteSon is doing now that I flipped it around? It's called JAQing off
The point is to ask what sound like reasonable questions but in reality you're just trying to sew uncertainty for others. Check WidowsFavoriteSon's history, they're not asking in good faith.
If they weren't just stirring shit it's easy to look up which side has killed more civilians. And this is how the data is collected:
And the fact that this line of questioning exactly mirrors holocaust denialism is gross. I know, har har, godwin's law; but it's really the same fucking thing. I would bet money that it's not an accident.
Well the post history does pull the rug from under me haha
If Israel wanted to end this they could. They'd get their hostages back and they'd get to mourn their dead.
Instead they immediately moved to starve millions of people to spite, what Wikipedia claims is (ie. a likely exaggerated) 20,000 Hamas members, of which Israel can only count one to be officially killed by their actions so far.
They're now talking of a "final solution" for the "palestine problem". Half are already homeless, trapped beside the border crossings that israel bombs if not to their liking. How long until Israel is either allowed to enact their "final solution" or instigates a regional conflict between countries trying to prevent that?
Hamas could end the suffering if they cared about Palestinians, by surrendering.
Hope the millions who will die in the following days make you feel fulfilled that you chose this mindset. History will not absolve you.
History should have teached Palestinians a lesson or two about aggression and terrorism. They should have understood they will only hurt themselves with those.
If only Saudi Arabia didn't want a civilian nuclear program.
What am I talking about? Saudi Arabia was about to sign a defense agreement with the United States that would have allowed them to have a civilian nuclear program and enter into a defense pact with the United States. The only condition placed on Saudi Arabia was that they had to normalize relations with Israel. Iran didn't like this, because they're biggest competitor in the region was Saudi Arabia. If only there was a way to keep Saudi Arabia from normalizing relations with Israel. I wonder what Iran could have done to prevent that...
Convenient coincidence, but Qatar has been shoveling money towards Hamas for years
Did Israel catch up to killing innocent people like Hamas did yet?
*Guess Isreal is winning while the innocent loose
They've been ahead for years.
A long, long time ago, fascist.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
long, long
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
According to hamas, basically.
ftfy
This is simply disgusting and utterly unjustifiable. Yes a nation has the right to defend itself - when it's under attack as it was by Hamas two weeks ago. Once the attack is over, going into Gaza and blatantly murdering people is no longer "defense," it is sick and perverted retaliation - a chance for mentally ill men to go use their sick weapons to kill, hurt, maim, torture, destroy, wound, and obliterate. Give them weapons, men will always invent (completely erroneous) reasons to use them againt innocent civilians. SHAME AND DAMNATION ON EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THIS WAR.
Both men and women serve in the Israeli military.
Also quit making this about your virtue signaling. There's real people suffering and you're not the lone voice in the wind.
Join a war protest. Donate to Amnesty International. Get involved if you care to do more than shame people who will never read your posts while proclaiming on social media how virtuous you are.
Was going to let this slide. But once I saw you had posted twice in this thread, I couldn't. For the sake of myself and everyone else that reads your comments.
Thanks
Wow I really pressed your buttons, and that was the entire aim of my post. Glad it got this reaction.
I don't believe it. The tone was holier than thou. Not rage bait.
But if you'd prefer to be thought of as a troll, more power to you.
Better to be thought of as a troll than to be thought of as a belligerent asshole like yourself. Sorry, but that's how you come across and you seem extremely unhappy. I hope things get better for you and you can't quit being so small minded.
This isn't a fucking game where you take turns.
Retaliatory actions that prevent the next attack ARE self defense.
"Once the attck is over" - gtfo of here with that shit. Like you can actually say, "Oh, they pressed pause. Let's all go back home until they unpause"
I certainly pressed your buttons and I'm glad I did. You have a lot of problems, and that's very evident. You might want to work on that quick to anger reflexive attitude.
Yes, let's pretend a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonialist project has the right to "defend" itself from the people it has actively sought to exterminate since 1949.
Any israelis or palestinians who engage in this war, for terrorist reasons, retaliation, or just for the sick thrill they get from killing children, is a total monster and to blame in every way with no exception. And all who participate, will burn in hell for the rest of eternity without exception and in every possible way. I am a lone voice screaming the horror of this war mentality into the wind. War is not a justifiable response to ANYTHING. And it never can be. But most especially, it cannot be justified by any group claiming to have any actual religious ideals of any kind.
6/10 - like the drama you put into it but I think overall there is not enough Iam14AndThisIsDeep.
Yeah, seems like the kind of thing that would be upvoted way more on reddit.
There is no hell, and that is the problem; those fighting believe in it.
This isn't a religious war. Even Hamas rewrote their charter in 2017 to specify that their resistance is against the Israeli state and not Judaism, and ended their relationship with the muslim brotherhood.
Sure many are religious and fundamentalists, but the majority Palestinian resistance is resisting because of colonialism and apartheid, not because a cleric has demanded it holy to do so.
As a Jew, I'd like you to know we don't have the concept of hell.
The afterlife is pretty simple, if you lived as a good Jew (they aren't) you live with God. If you live as a bad Jew, you live without God. That's really about it.
That's the Christian heaven and hell as I understand them too. From when I was being taught from someone who had studied the scripture, as a theologian, in an intense historical and philosophical way said the only canon Christians have on hell is that it is living without god. A lot of the imagery of Christian hell is about as biblically supported as Santa Claus. I could be wrong but that man knew more about Every Abrahamic religion than anyone id ever conversed with, and plenty of non Abrahamic ones too.
Interesting I actually didn't know that. One of the unfortunate parts of growing up with a bible thumper Christian step mom is you don't actually learn the bible, you get told bullshit that isn't true.
Hell was straight up stolen from the norse mythology, they kept the name and everything.
I like that concept. I happen to be atheistic, but I've worked with professors who were of the Jewish faith and helped serve and prepare food in their congregation and I love the people and their generosity. I've yet to encounter anyone of the Jewish faith I would call a bad person (but I'm not saying they aren't out there, there are some in every tenet and faith). Thanks for the clarification!!
You're very welcome!
Fun fact, you'll meet plenty of Jews who are atheistic as well. There's a running joke in the community "ahh yes the time honored Jewish tradition of atheism."
Without getting too personal, I'm actually agnostic. At least I think that's the proper term. I don't wonder if God exists, I wonder if it matters if God exists.
That is funny - "the time honored Jewish tradition of atheism." X ). I'm actually more agnostic myself, but my atheist friends think I'm just "hedging my bet" by not committing. It isn't so much that I am on the fence, but rather, that I have always had an unshakable sense that something larger and greater in power (but unknowable to us) IS out there - not sure what to call it, and whether someone calls it god or not, there is a force to be reckoned with that is overarching and shaping the universe, which to me is something that matters.
Thanks for your feedback I really enjoy it.
Well I agree with you totally - I don't personally believe in heaven or hell or any of that nonsense, but you would think that groups that DO believe in hell would try their best not to end up in it.