The answer is no, the American political system cannot survive a high percentage of willful contrarianism. This is true because the mechanisms to change the system require support from those bad actors as well, and the popular vote can do very little to fix if.
I’m tired of this nihilist capitulation
Those bullies live in communities, and those communities have to tolerate it for it to wipe out America
We stood up to these assholes in the 30s we can do it now
We stood up to these assholes in the 30s
But did we really? I read my history, and if not for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the US would have either not joined WW2, or would have joined on the side of Germany.
The first CIA director (Before the CIA was formed) was doing spy shit in Europe before the US joined the war, and was very friendly with Hitler's government. He reportedly cried actual tears when the US joined the was against Germany.
There were Nazi marches in the US in the 30s, but they weren't popular for one reason only. The US population didn't like that the Nazi ideology was German. The Homegrown Fascists were more popular. Especially the America First movement.
Whoa whoa whoa. Next thing I bet you'll tell me that there was a fascist coup plot in the 1930s. At the exact same time as Hitler's beerhall putch or something. Hell I bet it would be something even more ridiculous than that. Like when it was found out instead of prosecuting and hanging all those involved. FDR the target of the plot would instead negotiate with fascist, I mean Republicans. To pass his new deal legislation in return for not going after them. And that at least of the implicated businessmen would go on to become a senator shortly after being caught. Ironically being the father and grandfather of two future presidents or something.
Who was that Bushes grandfather?
It was ole grave robbing Prescott Bush.
It's not capitulation, it's an acknowledgment that this is cancer, not a virus.
America is not under attack, it's suffering from actions of its own people. We can't keep pretending like Trump or his supporters are an aberration, they are a significant portion of this country, and if we cannot change them, or change how the system works without their agreement, then we're stuck like this for quite some time until some sort of generational or cultural shift happens.
It's not nihilism, it's seeing the state of the field and acknowledging what the actual problem is. The question then is what we do about it, and chiefly, how much time we have left to do something about it before the damage becomes irreparable.
Mitch McConnell won his seat with the help of the negative ads saying thr Incumbent wasn't doing his job and was absent from voting way too many times. Kentucky was solidly Democratic at that point.
Maybe some of these superpacs need to hammer that point home.
That was in 1985, when conservativism was on the rise, and even then, it was extremely close.
But frankly I doubt it would even work today, and definitely not in Kentucky. What ads could Democrats run that is more effective than the Fox News Kentuckians injects into their veins now? The country is pretty significantly different now when it comes to politics and campaigning, and the demographics of Kentucky have shifted too. Kentucky is solidly Trump country now
Just like Ohio has become. Sherrod Brown has an outstanding Congressional record, he's been well liked for many terms, and he's been able to straddle the gulf between being a (mostly) progressive Democrat in an increasingly red state. It's remarkable he won his seat back in 2018. He's been a terrific Senator, but to spite all that, his seat is in real jeopardy, and it's entirely because of the letter next to his name.
Give it 6 years and it'll be the 30s again. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.
Kind of a definitional issue, isn't it? We have to tolerate it under our political system, because that's how our political system works. Deciding not to tolerate it requires discarding or ignoring the rules of our political system. So whether it's them or us knifing it, the answer to the question is no, our political system won't survive, by definition.
(There's nothing particularly sacrosanct about it, so the important question is whether we can fundamentally change our political system without too much violence.)
Historically speaking, "without too much violence" has included a full-blown war.
Both of you seem to be correct, but dystopian.
That's just it: reality is a dystopia for most. Any accurate analysis will sound dystopic, because that's what it's describing.
We were unified in the 30’s and these assholes weren’t homegrown.
It’s a different climate now. We’re not prepared for it.
Read history again. Half the Nazi ideology came from the states. (not literally half, just speaking lazily) Nazis DEFINITELY weren't the only ones screeching about how the white man was superior...
It was just Reconstruction 2.0... The US failed to purge evil yet again. There's only one place a bigoted racist whos willing to violently enact their racism belongs, and it's not breathing. The US has failed time and again to deliver actual justice to a single soul.
Is there anything you people actually like?
I don't know if I'm one of those people, but I'm a huge fucking fan of antifa. My grandfather fought fascism in WW2 and, call me old fashioned, that just kinda stuck with me.
I’d guarantee your grandfather didn’t call everything he didn’t like fascist like you kids do.
"everything"
Sure buddy.
Yeah the GOP aren't fascists at all, they're just a group of religious, authoritarian ethno-nationalists that oppress minorities, advocate violence, recruit the disenfranchised by blaming minorities who are simultaneously weak and a dire threat, and promising a return to an idealized, fictional past. That's totally not the textbook definition of fascism at all. /s
I didn’t say the GOP wasn’t fascist. You’re clearly reading what you WANT to see instead of reading for context.
My point is an argument against the kids that call EVERYTHING they disagree with fascist. Including democrats/Biden.
Stop sensationalizing everything everyone says and lean what nuance means. It’ll save you and everyone that will ever have to deal with tog a LOT of time.
Us kids? You don't know my grandfather. And you don't know me. And apparently you don't know math all that well, either. Mate, I have a grandchild of my own.
I’d guarantee your grandfather didn’t call everything he didn’t like fascist like you kids do.
I will be a dictator, but only from Day 1 is not Faschist?
Storming the capital beating people to death and wiping shit on the walls is just a normal day?
I’m talking about the asshats that say the democrats are fascists as well. If you’re not one of them, then you spoke out of turn.
Truth? Accuracy? Justice? Egalitarianism?
ROFL! right. You just disagree every time evidence of those things are shown to you.
Who exactly are "you people" in this context and why are you upset?
I meant to say “kids” and said, “you people” instead. I suppose you now want to line up your comrades and shoot me full of holes for my mistake?
And I assure you I’m not upset about anything. I’m certainly not whining online about every and anything I see. If anything, I’m just baffled how someone can be so angry about everything, and think their road is high enough to hypocritically cast aspersions on someone else.
Whos being a hypocrite here? You just sound like a judgemental asshole that doesn't want to hear others' opinions.
I have a pro tip for you: If others' opinions offend you, you don't have to continue reading comments or reply.
Woah there! No need to get upset! Just look back through this comment chain and realize that you invited yourself into it. Then take your own advice.
Or, you know…. You can retreat to your default seeing of OUTRAGE!!!!
Gonna block you now. You have nothing useful to contribute.
You realize you're the one complaining about hearing an opinion instead of debating the merits of the opinion... right? You're the only one responding like that. Pathetic troll.
That is the part I really do not understand. History has shown time and time again that the people always win.
I think what's happening in the US today rhymes hard on the fall of the Roman Republic.
And I'm sorry, but I don't think the people won back then.
The real question is will the American Populous accept a dictator? Or will we tear this country apart from the inside if he wins?
A depressing portion seem to want it. The left will protest I am sure but I don't know if it will be enough.
If the only thing the opposition does is the legally allowed "safe" protests, then no it will not be enough. Chanting "not my president" in confined, mandated areas will have the exact same effect this time as it had last time- nothing. We need to stop pretending the law is on our side. See: upcoming supreme court decision.
The left in the U.S. is made up of dilettantes and academics unwilling to put in the work required for real change. They only know handwringing and criticism.
There'll be protests that are swiftly crushed and the vast majority of Americans will tune out and go back to voting for The Next Top Whatever and waiting for the next big movie.
I would like to point you to socialistRA
https://socialistra.org/resources/
You're more than welcome to come join us in a stand with the oppressed.
you forgot the crust punks and gender fuckers and foodnotbombs and the black bloc.
Nah I counted every active participant in all those groups, all 300 of them.
you clearly didn't.
I wish their numbers amounted to anything but alas, 300 is all I could find.
I'm French enough to protest but everyone around me seems to not understand how the French protest. Buncha cowards.
If we decided to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and start reacting appropriately probably. If we continue to try and argue in good faith and search for diplomatic solutions to things like states deploying troops in opposition to the federal government, then probably not.
Headline is a question. The answer is no
Conservatives are convinced their policies can't fail, only be failed. They think God himself has ordained them as higher beings, entitled to shepherd the rest of the world towards prosperity that looks an awful lot like techno feudalism. Every now and then a catastrophe of their own doing will pop this bubble, but their goldfish memory quickly reverts back to the original setting of racial and religious exceptionalism
"We're going to do everything we can to normalize them so we can find out!"
NYT
"US democracy ends!" I bet that headline'd sell! What can we do?
FOX
Define “survive”?
In true American fashion we will start to do something once it's too late
Cruelty is the point…
Does it hurt me less than it will hurt those that I don’t like? Great. Now, how can we hurt them more….
It is a crazy philosophy to live by. I don’t effing get it
Nope. And it’s dumb to even ask.
We can survive a few saboteurs but when they take control of government, the end is near.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Almost four years have passed since Congress approved and Donald Trump signed a huge relief bill designed to limit the financial hardship created by the Covid-19 pandemic.
In fact, according to a Federal Reserve survey, the percentage of Americans “doing at least OK financially” was actually higher in July 2020 than it had been before the pandemic, presumably because for many people, government aid, including one-time checks and greatly enhanced unemployment benefits, more than made up for lost jobs and business.
Furthermore, fears that generous aid during the pandemic would undermine America’s work ethic — that adults would leave the labor force and never come back — proved totally wrong.
The trick here is that they pretend 2020 never happened — a sleight of hand that only works because federal aid allowed so many Americans to emerge from the pandemic slump in good financial shape.
For example, in 2019, she shepherded a bipartisan agreement to suspend the debt ceiling, averting a potential financial crisis, with a deal that Trump himself conceded contained “no poison pills.”
Oh, and a significant fraction of Republicans, Trump included, would prefer to block aid to Ukraine because, by all appearances, Vladimir Putin is their kind of guy, and they’re content to see him steamroll his democratic neighbor.
The original article contains 892 words, the summary contains 212 words. Saved 76%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
It depends on how seriously the other party opposes the party of saboteurs.
I'm bummed that this is just op-ed.
We have done so for the last 20 some odd years at least…
The answer is a YES with a standing ovation. There is no alternative to democracy. Even if the country breaks, America will survive.
I like your optimism, but Authoritarianism is, unfortunately, an alternative that can "work" for decades. It sucks for basically everyone who doesn't have power, but it is nonetheless viable and a path we are one election away from going down.
The answer is no, the American political system cannot survive a high percentage of willful contrarianism. This is true because the mechanisms to change the system require support from those bad actors as well, and the popular vote can do very little to fix if.
I’m tired of this nihilist capitulation
Those bullies live in communities, and those communities have to tolerate it for it to wipe out America
We stood up to these assholes in the 30s we can do it now
But did we really? I read my history, and if not for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the US would have either not joined WW2, or would have joined on the side of Germany.
The first CIA director (Before the CIA was formed) was doing spy shit in Europe before the US joined the war, and was very friendly with Hitler's government. He reportedly cried actual tears when the US joined the was against Germany.
There were Nazi marches in the US in the 30s, but they weren't popular for one reason only. The US population didn't like that the Nazi ideology was German. The Homegrown Fascists were more popular. Especially the America First movement.
Whoa whoa whoa. Next thing I bet you'll tell me that there was a fascist coup plot in the 1930s. At the exact same time as Hitler's beerhall putch or something. Hell I bet it would be something even more ridiculous than that. Like when it was found out instead of prosecuting and hanging all those involved. FDR the target of the plot would instead negotiate with fascist, I mean Republicans. To pass his new deal legislation in return for not going after them. And that at least of the implicated businessmen would go on to become a senator shortly after being caught. Ironically being the father and grandfather of two future presidents or something.
Who was that Bushes grandfather?
It was ole grave robbing Prescott Bush.
It's not capitulation, it's an acknowledgment that this is cancer, not a virus.
America is not under attack, it's suffering from actions of its own people. We can't keep pretending like Trump or his supporters are an aberration, they are a significant portion of this country, and if we cannot change them, or change how the system works without their agreement, then we're stuck like this for quite some time until some sort of generational or cultural shift happens.
It's not nihilism, it's seeing the state of the field and acknowledging what the actual problem is. The question then is what we do about it, and chiefly, how much time we have left to do something about it before the damage becomes irreparable.
Mitch McConnell won his seat with the help of the negative ads saying thr Incumbent wasn't doing his job and was absent from voting way too many times. Kentucky was solidly Democratic at that point.
Maybe some of these superpacs need to hammer that point home.
That was in 1985, when conservativism was on the rise, and even then, it was extremely close.
But frankly I doubt it would even work today, and definitely not in Kentucky. What ads could Democrats run that is more effective than the Fox News Kentuckians injects into their veins now? The country is pretty significantly different now when it comes to politics and campaigning, and the demographics of Kentucky have shifted too. Kentucky is solidly Trump country now
Just like Ohio has become. Sherrod Brown has an outstanding Congressional record, he's been well liked for many terms, and he's been able to straddle the gulf between being a (mostly) progressive Democrat in an increasingly red state. It's remarkable he won his seat back in 2018. He's been a terrific Senator, but to spite all that, his seat is in real jeopardy, and it's entirely because of the letter next to his name.
Give it 6 years and it'll be the 30s again. The wheel weaves as the wheel wills.
Kind of a definitional issue, isn't it? We have to tolerate it under our political system, because that's how our political system works. Deciding not to tolerate it requires discarding or ignoring the rules of our political system. So whether it's them or us knifing it, the answer to the question is no, our political system won't survive, by definition.
(There's nothing particularly sacrosanct about it, so the important question is whether we can fundamentally change our political system without too much violence.)
Historically speaking, "without too much violence" has included a full-blown war.
Both of you seem to be correct, but dystopian.
That's just it: reality is a dystopia for most. Any accurate analysis will sound dystopic, because that's what it's describing.
We were unified in the 30’s and these assholes weren’t homegrown.
It’s a different climate now. We’re not prepared for it.
Read history again. Half the Nazi ideology came from the states. (not literally half, just speaking lazily) Nazis DEFINITELY weren't the only ones screeching about how the white man was superior...
It was just Reconstruction 2.0... The US failed to purge evil yet again. There's only one place a bigoted racist whos willing to violently enact their racism belongs, and it's not breathing. The US has failed time and again to deliver actual justice to a single soul.
Is there anything you people actually like?
I don't know if I'm one of those people, but I'm a huge fucking fan of antifa. My grandfather fought fascism in WW2 and, call me old fashioned, that just kinda stuck with me.
I’d guarantee your grandfather didn’t call everything he didn’t like fascist like you kids do.
"everything"
Sure buddy.
Yeah the GOP aren't fascists at all, they're just a group of religious, authoritarian ethno-nationalists that oppress minorities, advocate violence, recruit the disenfranchised by blaming minorities who are simultaneously weak and a dire threat, and promising a return to an idealized, fictional past. That's totally not the textbook definition of fascism at all. /s
I didn’t say the GOP wasn’t fascist. You’re clearly reading what you WANT to see instead of reading for context.
My point is an argument against the kids that call EVERYTHING they disagree with fascist. Including democrats/Biden.
Stop sensationalizing everything everyone says and lean what nuance means. It’ll save you and everyone that will ever have to deal with tog a LOT of time.
Us kids? You don't know my grandfather. And you don't know me. And apparently you don't know math all that well, either. Mate, I have a grandchild of my own.
I’d guarantee your grandfather didn’t call everything he didn’t like fascist like you kids do.
I will be a dictator, but only from Day 1 is not Faschist?
Storming the capital beating people to death and wiping shit on the walls is just a normal day?
I’m talking about the asshats that say the democrats are fascists as well. If you’re not one of them, then you spoke out of turn.
Truth? Accuracy? Justice? Egalitarianism?
ROFL! right. You just disagree every time evidence of those things are shown to you.
Who exactly are "you people" in this context and why are you upset?
I meant to say “kids” and said, “you people” instead. I suppose you now want to line up your comrades and shoot me full of holes for my mistake?
And I assure you I’m not upset about anything. I’m certainly not whining online about every and anything I see. If anything, I’m just baffled how someone can be so angry about everything, and think their road is high enough to hypocritically cast aspersions on someone else.
Whos being a hypocrite here? You just sound like a judgemental asshole that doesn't want to hear others' opinions.
I have a pro tip for you: If others' opinions offend you, you don't have to continue reading comments or reply.
Woah there! No need to get upset! Just look back through this comment chain and realize that you invited yourself into it. Then take your own advice.
Or, you know…. You can retreat to your default seeing of OUTRAGE!!!!
Gonna block you now. You have nothing useful to contribute.
You realize you're the one complaining about hearing an opinion instead of debating the merits of the opinion... right? You're the only one responding like that. Pathetic troll.
That is the part I really do not understand. History has shown time and time again that the people always win.
I think what's happening in the US today rhymes hard on the fall of the Roman Republic.
And I'm sorry, but I don't think the people won back then.
There's no such thing as "the people" when the country is so divided.
The real question is will the American Populous accept a dictator? Or will we tear this country apart from the inside if he wins?
A depressing portion seem to want it. The left will protest I am sure but I don't know if it will be enough.
If the only thing the opposition does is the legally allowed "safe" protests, then no it will not be enough. Chanting "not my president" in confined, mandated areas will have the exact same effect this time as it had last time- nothing. We need to stop pretending the law is on our side. See: upcoming supreme court decision.
The left in the U.S. is made up of dilettantes and academics unwilling to put in the work required for real change. They only know handwringing and criticism.
There'll be protests that are swiftly crushed and the vast majority of Americans will tune out and go back to voting for The Next Top Whatever and waiting for the next big movie.
I would like to point you to socialistRA https://socialistra.org/resources/ You're more than welcome to come join us in a stand with the oppressed.
you forgot the crust punks and gender fuckers and foodnotbombs and the black bloc.
Nah I counted every active participant in all those groups, all 300 of them.
you clearly didn't.
I wish their numbers amounted to anything but alas, 300 is all I could find.
I'm French enough to protest but everyone around me seems to not understand how the French protest. Buncha cowards.
I vote for tearing it apart.
https://socialistra.org/resources/
For anyone interested
If we decided to stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and start reacting appropriately probably. If we continue to try and argue in good faith and search for diplomatic solutions to things like states deploying troops in opposition to the federal government, then probably not.
Headline is a question. The answer is no
Conservatives are convinced their policies can't fail, only be failed. They think God himself has ordained them as higher beings, entitled to shepherd the rest of the world towards prosperity that looks an awful lot like techno feudalism. Every now and then a catastrophe of their own doing will pop this bubble, but their goldfish memory quickly reverts back to the original setting of racial and religious exceptionalism
"We're going to do everything we can to normalize them so we can find out!"
"US democracy ends!" I bet that headline'd sell! What can we do?
Define “survive”?
In true American fashion we will start to do something once it's too late
Cruelty is the point…
Does it hurt me less than it will hurt those that I don’t like? Great. Now, how can we hurt them more….
It is a crazy philosophy to live by. I don’t effing get it
Nope. And it’s dumb to even ask.
We can survive a few saboteurs but when they take control of government, the end is near.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Almost four years have passed since Congress approved and Donald Trump signed a huge relief bill designed to limit the financial hardship created by the Covid-19 pandemic.
In fact, according to a Federal Reserve survey, the percentage of Americans “doing at least OK financially” was actually higher in July 2020 than it had been before the pandemic, presumably because for many people, government aid, including one-time checks and greatly enhanced unemployment benefits, more than made up for lost jobs and business.
Furthermore, fears that generous aid during the pandemic would undermine America’s work ethic — that adults would leave the labor force and never come back — proved totally wrong.
The trick here is that they pretend 2020 never happened — a sleight of hand that only works because federal aid allowed so many Americans to emerge from the pandemic slump in good financial shape.
For example, in 2019, she shepherded a bipartisan agreement to suspend the debt ceiling, averting a potential financial crisis, with a deal that Trump himself conceded contained “no poison pills.”
Oh, and a significant fraction of Republicans, Trump included, would prefer to block aid to Ukraine because, by all appearances, Vladimir Putin is their kind of guy, and they’re content to see him steamroll his democratic neighbor.
The original article contains 892 words, the summary contains 212 words. Saved 76%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
It depends on how seriously the other party opposes the party of saboteurs.
I'm bummed that this is just op-ed.
We have done so for the last 20 some odd years at least…
The answer is a YES with a standing ovation. There is no alternative to democracy. Even if the country breaks, America will survive.
I like your optimism, but Authoritarianism is, unfortunately, an alternative that can "work" for decades. It sucks for basically everyone who doesn't have power, but it is nonetheless viable and a path we are one election away from going down.