Can homeless people be fined for sleeping outside? A rural Oregon city asks the US Supreme Court
The scenes were emblematic of the crisis gripping the small, Oregon mountain town of Grants Pass, where a fierce fight over park space has become a battleground for a much larger, national debate on homelessness that has reached the U.S. Supreme Court.
The town’s case, set to be heard April 22, has broad implications for how not only Grants Pass, but communities nationwide address homelessness, including whether they can fine or jail people for camping in public. It has made the town of 40,000 the unlikely face of the nation’s homelessness crisis, and further fueled the debate over how to deal with it.
“I certainly wish this wasn’t what my town was known for,” Mayor Sara Bristol told The Associated Press last month. “It’s not the reason why I became mayor. And yet it has dominated every single thing that I’ve done for the last 3 1/2 years.”
Officials across the political spectrum — from Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom in California, which has nearly 30% of the nation’s homeless population, to a group of 22 conservative-led states — have filed briefs in the case, saying lower court rulings have hamstrung their ability to deal with encampments.
What the fuck? They're homeless. Sleeping outside is their only option. Shelters are often dangerous, very restrictive on who they let in and there aren't anywhere near enough of them in the places they need to be.
Sleeping in public places isn't a fucking crime. It's not like they'd choose the park over an apartment if they had one.
Yes, but if it's criminalized you get to remove the eyesore of struggling poor people with the added benefit of fines and imprisonment.
Also prisoners are slave labor thanks to the 13th amendment so if you can take people off the street and chuck them in jail, you get free labor. Yay capitalism. /s
Slavery is a great way to maximise profits! Who cares about humans? If you just reduce them to numbers in your excel sheets it gets a lot easier to do maths with them!
Humanity just never changes, does it? Are we doomed to be forever despicable?
History whould suggest yes
How effective do they expect fining homeless people to be?
Can't pay the fine, believe it or not, jail.
Extremely effective. It's not about housing them...
Not to mention you get kicked out of the shelter in the morning and can’t return until the evening, assuming you’re back in time to get a bed.
@Neato @girlfreddy
Rhonda Sanchez just signed a bill in Florida outlawing sleeping in public. Florida is run by shit stains.
Also a lot of them are ran by Christians. Can't imagine they treat gay people equally
After the way I was treated today, I can imagine much worse than "not equally".
It's tricky, because allowing it to happen creates massive public health and environmental disasters:
https://www.oregonlive.com/environment/2023/07/natural-sites-in-east-portland-hardest-hit-by-homeless-camps.html
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2023/07/hidden-toll-of-homeless-crisis-portlands-prized-natural-areas.html
https://nbcmontana.com/news/nation-world/city-breaks-up-homeless-camp-pulls-out-150-stolen-cars-tons-of-trash-live-pigs-big-four-corners-natural-area-portland-oregon-housing-crisis-damage-neighbor-george-donnerberg-park-and-rec-environmental-impact
https://www.koin.com/local/multnomah-county/portland-waterways-streets-cleared-of-over-100-derelict-boats-thanks-to-take-back-program/
These aren't the "oh, poor innocent homeless, down on their luck" portrayed by advocates, they are drug addicts and thieves, leeching off society, and actively making life worse for themselves and everyone else.
Perhaps if they had housing and sufficient social nets so they didn't have to steal to eat and places they could get managed drug doses (you can't just quit, especially without resources) then this wouldn't be a problem.
It's not like people choose to be problems and homeless. Almost all Americans are one or two bad turns away from joining them.
Studies show the majority of homeless people have jobs. Furthermore they didn't have one big reason for going homeless. They just couldn't afford housing and eventually they are unable to pay. People report sliding into homelessness over the course of years as the cost of housing kept rising without pay rising.
Trying to depict all homeless people as junkies is disingenuous at best.
That was the estimate from the University of Chicago in 2021 which has since been actively been disproven by point in time counts of actual homeless people.
The Chicago stat:
https://endhomelessness.org/blog/employed-and-experiencing-homelessness-what-the-numbers-show/
"53% of people living in homeless shelters and 40% of unsheltered people were employed, either full or part-time, in the year that people were observed homeless between 2011 – 2018."
The reality is almost the exact opposite:
https://socialinnovation.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Homelessness-and-Employment.pdf
"According to the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority’s (LAHSA) 2019 Adult Demographic Survey, over 50% of single adults (24 and older) experiencing unsheltered homelessness in Los Angeles County are unemployed (LAHSA, 2019a). Of those unemployed, approximately half reported that they are actively looking for work. The same survey found that 49% of unsheltered adults in family units are unemployed, but a much higher percentage of them (36%) are actively looking for work than single adults. Additionally, 46% of unsheltered adults cited unemployment or a financial reason as a primary reason why they are homeless (LAHSA, 2019a)."
And:
"According to the same survey, about 20% of single adults experiencing unsheltered homelessness in Los Angeles County are working, including full-time, part-time, seasonal, and self-employment compared to about 32% of unsheltered adults in family units (LAHSA, 2019a). Not only are people experiencing homelessness employed at low rates, but evidence shows that those who are employed report very low annual earnings (California Policy Lab, 2020). In Los Angeles County, employed people experiencing homelessness earned an average of just under $10,000 in the year prior to experiencing homelessness (California Policy Lab, 2020)."
So first of all, you're comparing two different regions. Second 51 percent of people in the document you linked have an income and 36 percent are seeking work. Third, you should really read their myths document. It pretty clearly refutes all of your claims.
So I guess work or kill yourself? That's great. Just great.
You want things in life? You work for them. Nobody is just going to give them to you.
Stop zoning everything for luxury apartments or single family homes.
"Just stop being poor, dammit!"
"You should work for what you have! Also, you should donate your time to corporations because they shouldn't have to pay people a living wage to earn all their profit for them!"
They have NASA workers living in their vehicles in California. This country is a paved-over wasteland.
They aren't asking for anyone to give things to them (well, besides spare change). They just want to live their lives and not go to jail. Some want to find a job but can't. Some have a job but not a good enough one to get an apartment. Some want to do drugs and sleep in oblivion. Some have severe mental challenges and couldn't hold a job if they tried.
How does 51% of homeless people being unemployed in LA County disprove the claim that only 47% of homeless people are unemployed in Chicago? They're almost the same figure...
May be, but we've gotten rid of entire classes of housing that these kind of people would be living in otherwise.
Fuck off
Some, you assume, must be good people though, right?
You should build a wall.
Ideally, what I'd like to see is this... It would probably take 1.5 to 2 billion to pull off:
You build and staff a state of the art medical facility for mental health and addiction treatment, including the ability to hold people long term if necessary.
You build and staff a facility for job training and placement, including specialized support for people with criminal records. This would also need to include interview and resume skills. Assistance for email, phone, and Internet, but also clothing assistance, laundry assistance, and the like for interviews.
You build and staff a facility for housing support. Like work assistance, there needs to be specialized support for people with criminal records. But also a permanent address for mail.
Once all that infrastructure is in place, you sweep the streets.
People who need mental health and addiction treatment get institutionalized and treated until they are healthy, then they get released to the job and housing programs.
People who have no job get the job assistance program.
People who have a job get the housing assistance program.
People with warrants or otherwise engaging in crimimal behavior (stolen cars, stolen bikes, other material) get arrested.
People who are otherwise able bodied, but who are homeless by choice because "I ain't part of your system, maaaan!" get their asses kicked and pressed into service cleaning up homeless camps.
You started off this post so reasonably...
It is reasonable if you want a permanent solution.
Some might say making forced camps for a subset of people might be considered a final solution. But maybe I am just concentrating on the whole sweep the streets of undisrables part.
Camps that help people vs. camps that hurt people is a pretty significant difference. It's clear they can't or won't help themselves.
But I'm open, you have a better solution than letting them live in squalor?
Ah yes, they can put a uplifting phrase on all the entrances as well. Something like work will set you free maybe. That way you know the camp was built to help people and would be way better then just leaving them alone.
There are some other things that would need to be done as well though. How would the authorities know if someone was both working and had a place? Oh I know we can issue papers to each person that have their job and residence listed, that way all it would take is the local authorities asking everyone out "Papers, please".
On what is a seemingly unrelated note, how much of a history buff are you?
Your last sentence is what is so unreasonable. You are criminalizing being alive without a job, which means humans have no right to live without being in your system.
Pretty much, yeah, you don't have the right to leech off everyone else. Contribute or GTFO.
Since one day you will go bankrupt, or your children will be destitute, and we can throw you all in a cell and laugh at you, I think your lack of empathy has the perfect end game.
Careful about them medical bills when you have a heart attack, tough guy. We don’t like poor people around here.
Been bankrupt, addicted to vicodin, and had 2 heart attacks with a bonus of open heart surgery. Never homeless. Never had to steal from others to get by.
You paid for all those procedures or you got it from the government?
Health insurance through my employer, because, you know, I work for a living.
How is sleeping outside and not taking anything leeching off everyone else?
Super simple, we all pay to clean up their shit:
https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2023/07/hidden-toll-of-homeless-crisis-portlands-prized-natural-areas.html?outputType=amp
And they are blocking other people from using public resources:
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/local/homeless/tents-garbage-block-ada-access-portland/283-a31c4f8c-8fb4-449d-ba1f-651e0726dc09
So, no, fuck those guys.
It's getting to the point that you can't sleep anywhere legally unless you're paying someone for the space you're occupying. Most of the cities near me have destroyed the woods that homeless people lived in, forcing them to move and leaving behind a weird ass looking stand of trees.
I used to work with homeless people and as much as being outside sucks, shelters can be worse. We had people in their 70s who went to shelters and slept on the floor, their heads almost touching their neighbors. They had their meds stolen and had to sleep on top of their belongings to keep them safe. A lot of people chose to sleep outside in the summer because they felt safer.
This is the point of enclosure and it's been true for hundreds of years now. This is the concept the stole the planet from the people.
A fine on existing.
No, no, no. We wouldn't think of fining people for existing. Just for existing while poor.
I believe that would include my monthly tribute to my landed lord.
You can be sure that these jailed homeless people will end up being forced into labor - enslaved - because you can't let dirt-cheap labor go to waste, and you can't let a poor person look like they're getting something for nothing - mooching, free-riding - even if it's not their choice. Handouts are legitimately only for the rich and their corporations after all. If someone's fined+jailed and won't work for some capitalist exploiter, what will be done? I would guess some kind of torture will be employed to change their minds, but wouldn't be surprised if they're simply executed, especially if they're non-white.
You have an outlandish view of county jail in the US. None of that shit happens.
Yeah, you're right, they'll just tied you down and torture you for fun.
https://globalnews.ca/news/2949072/how-an-ohio-womans-night-of-drinking-ended-in-being-pepper-sprayed-in-a-restraint-chair/
That's a strawman argument. She wasn't tortured to make her work, she was tortured by a sadist.
You're right. Clearly our jail and prison industry is entirely above board
Our jails and prisons are fucked up but OP made some VERY outlandish claims
Look, you haven't made any real argument here, so I was just following your lead. If you insist that I prove you wrong, here you go: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4228271
Yeah, that paper that famously pointed out that county corrections inmates are required to maintain the cleanliness of their living space.
Required physical labor you say?
I guess if your mom was imprisoned with you she could clean up after you.
Your argument seems to have changed from "forced labor in county jails doesn't exist" to "I support forced labor in county jails". Not really convincing me that you're interested in anything other than bootlicking.
If you're imprisoning someone against their will who has not been convicted of a crime, you can't legally compel them to do any amount of labor, not even janitorial work. The Constitution is quite clear on this.
As an adult, I have no obligation to clean up after myself if I don't want to, the government can't compel me to do so either just because I'm in their custody. If they lock me up in jail without a conviction, they can clean my cell for me until I am either released or convicted if it matters so much to them. Any attempt to punish me for failure to clean their facility is nakedly unconstitutional.
Or they can offer me a fair wage that I'll agree to, as a free agent I am open to negotiation. I have the right not to lift a finger without agreeable pay. Nobody takes that right away from me without due process.
None of that will happen. They will throw you in AdSeg and let you stew in your own filth for the duration.
Either that or your celly will kick your ass for being a pig.
Ah, an endorsement of violence now. You really love cruel punishments without due process, huh?
Sounds like we’re running out of orphans for the orphan-crushing machine.
Reference
Oh no they still work. They just can't afford to live in a building.
I didn't think they'd actually start setting up Sanctuary Districts in 2024, but it looks like that's their eventual goal...
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bell_Riots
Too bad we don't have a Gabriel Bell.
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Maybe our version is Gabby Belle.
This lawsuit is idiotic considering the federal courts already ruled that you can't apply penalties against sleeping outside unless there are enough shelter beds for everyone. That ruling was in our federal district covering Oregon...
Fines will teach those people who have no money to get more money.
Open up the governor's mansion so they can sleep indoors
Churches
Those too
We keep eroding the social support network and complain about the homeless problem.
We keep changing the environment and complain about the new weather.
This all ends… so well.
The federal government needs to take over homeless support. Establish federally managed shelters.
I'm wary about this being the solution. I mean... [Gestures wildly at the federal government] Just wait until the republicans get a supermajority again and see what they do with camps full of homeless people under federal control.
Yeah, but giving the homeless bus tickets to another state isn’t the answer either. I know that wasn’t referenced earlier- but it happens. Without federal level support, Republicans’ solution is to remove their burdens to someone else’s plate. Then they unironically point at the “failures” of Democratic states, “look at all the encampments.”
Making homelessness illegal is just another arrow in their quiver towards the same goal (target).
HUD could do a lot by just literally buying buildings or developing new projects and renting them for just enough to cover costs. Put an anchor into the real estate markets.
Wait, a reasonable solution that could actually affect the problem? Nonsense! Those unoccupied buildings are very important and should remain empty.
Isn’t that what HUD used to do?
I don't think it was ever HUD, I think it was cities. If it was HUD then it's a shame they stopped.
And impose property taxes on rich people to pay for it. Allow those same taxpayers to vote to.have that tax go to permanent housing for the homeless in their zip code and such a vote is also consent to override all local laws in the process and make it lawsuit immune
Eminent domain land
Use the army core of engineers to build free public housing 200 miles outside of a metro location
run high speed rail from that to the metro.
"Can blood be squeezed from a stone? A rural Oregon city asks the US Council of Monarchs."
Plasma can.
Just wait until those individual sleeping pods can harvest electricity...
With this lineup, the SC is going to make execution the punishment for not having gainful employment. Only half sarcastic.
Yall call this civilization? What a joke.
Yes, let's waste money on fining people, who will tell you they have nothing, but it's no problem, because you will get them sooner or later once you have their address... Oh.
Fine them for having nothing, then jail them for not paying fines. Now you have an address for them. QED
Think it's more about this, than actually collecting fines from homeless people that have no money.
I was wondering if it would be legal to just run over rich people. You what I mean? Let's say you are driving to work and Elon musk is walking from the parking lot to the Starbucks. Could you just drive him over? What about a ticket? Can we give rich people a ticket? Sure it's not like driving over them, but it could work!
You know, after Putin will be finally sent to Hauge(or die) Russia can solve its demographic problem(you know, hundreds of thousands people becoming fertilizer) by simply making flying to Russia free.
Or that is just another stupid idea and we should focus on education, healthcare, pensions, welfare and public transport instead. This should be even easier and have bigger results.
Clearly, we need more space tourism.
I can’t speak for Oregon, but here in California the problem is that we have a LOT of beds that are not being used. And cities and states can’t force people into shelter and care if the area doesn’t have enough beds for everyone that is unhoused.
The ask is to be able to shelter some people with the beds that are available. Right now CA is forced to wait until it could theoretically give every unhoused person a shelter bed at once.
If the shelters aren't being used then maybe ask why they aren't being used instead of trying to force people into them.
Safety, hygiene, and convenience are often reasons why many people opt for a tent over the local shelter.
So it seems like a better idea then would be highly subsidized tiny houses/apartments.
They want safety? How entitled! /$
That's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard so I 100% believe the government would be stuck on exactly that.
Is that some sort of misguided antidiscrimination law?
Theft, overcrowding and assault are some reasons I've heard many homeless people say in CA as to the reason why they avoid shelters unless it becomes worse outside than inside.