They're not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol
It’s easy to support Palestinian statehood. Anyone that supports Hamas is a moron.
I was about to say, who's out there supporting hamas
The tankies are all over it, actually.
Fucking deranged tankies man, their Lord and Savior Hasan Abi has been going off about how "baby settlers" are valid military targets. These people yearn to live under a propaganda-military dictatorship.
It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.
That’s it. I’m never voting for a tankie again.
Bro like literally 90% of Lemmy has a throbbing boner for Hamas and his stated antisemitic terrorists, even in this thread, terrorists apologizers abound
Weird that as a Jew who is pretty damn sensitive to antisemitism since I faced a lot of it growing up in religious Indiana, I haven't noticed this support for antisemitic terrorists on Lemmy. I've seen a lot of support for innocent people being slaughtered because of Israel's response to antisemitic terrorists, but that's a separate issue.
People in the U.S. protested the war in Afghanistan. Does that mean they supported Al Qaeda? Because this is some real "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" thinking from my perspective.
You've not been in these threads for very long, have you?
Tankies? The same people supporting Russia, China, and other brutalist regimes...
You’d be surprised, they’re out there
Considering Hamas is the organization governing Gaza right now, the two are often intertwined in these discussions
Governing is a generous term
Under any solution (one or two state), Hamas will be the ones in power and representing the Palestinian block. Doesn't matter if they do a good job of it or not.
How do you figure?
They are the de facto (and kind of de jure...) government of Gaza. Hell, they run the Health Ministry that provides a lot of the updates.
If this somehow ends with anything short of further subjugation and/or eradication, they will be "heroes". And they aren't going to lessen their hold on the Palestinian people.
They were also very unpopular before Oct 7 and I doubt they've gotten any more popular since then.
Popularity doesn't really matter when they were, and are, the power in charge in Gaza.
And "popularity" will go through the roof if, somehow, they are the ones that get the Israeli Government to stop being genocidal dicks and actually make concessions... by raping and murdering Israeli, German, and UK citizens?
Israel controls the borders
how can Hamas do this
Yes Egypt also doesn't exists
it really is amazing how all the Hamas supporters simply refuse to acknowledge this one simple fact
It seems to me that Hamas "governs" Palestine the same way groups like the Mafia or Yakuza "govern" the people they extort.
Didn't the Palestinian people vote them in?
Almost 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians alive today were either too young to vote or hadn't even been born. How long after an election do you assume elected leaders have any real mandate?
My point was that regardless of their ability to do it, they were at one time the elected officials of the geographic location known as Gaza. They're obviously not a real government in policy and action, but they're the only thing that exists to even bear the term or concept of governance in the area.
There is no other group to be considered as the government, no matter how awful Hamas is at being a government of any variety.
At one time, yes, but I don't think we should be holding the Palestinians today to that. That would be like the Dubya era. If he had kept office until now, he would certainly not represent the opinion of Americans.
Hamas is embedded like a parasite, but there's better ways to point this out.
How long before you expect a population to be responsible for their country?
I don't blame North Koreans for being in a dictatorship, why would I blame Palestinians?
When their "leaders" don't represent them? Never. Same reason I don't hate on Israelis.
Like over a decade ago but they havent held elections since. I've seen countering articles saying Hamas has overwhelming support by the people, vs actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them. So who knows. Fog of war and all that.
actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them
Well that would result in them having overwhelming support, among the survivors that is.
Yes, democracy exists until we don't like it
What kind of democracy holds only a single election in 2006 and then no others?
Venezuela for starters
Venezuela is literally in the middle of an election year.
There is also the West Bank, however.
The West Bank has now been all but annexed by Israel.
Unfortunately
Yes, though most of the stuff is about Gaza
They're the same picture.
They shouldn't have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I'm no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It's like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.
I'm no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do?
I expect them not to commit war crimes at a bare minimum.
Yes, not indiscriminately murdering civilians would be nice.
Are you suggesting that when Israel bombs a refugee camp and kills all those innocent people that somehow that is a reasonable response?
It's a disproportionate response, and misdirected. But it is definitely a response to something real, which the more rabid anti-Israel types seem to gloss over.
It's a war crime.
Probably, yes.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but they're bombing refuge camps.
Yes it's a humanitarian disaster through and through, and the government response is internationally humiliating for Israel. I felt the same way when the USA started carpet bombing Baghdad after 9/11, although that was far worse and made much less sense.
It's genocide.
I'm not arrogant enough to think I have sufficient knowledge or access to reliable enough information to make that judgement. I can certainly say it's a humanitarian disaster and tragedy.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
What did you expect? Do you think that hitting a wasp nest with a rod just once means you'll only be stung once because you only hit it once?
There's no rule stating that the wasps must respond with equal magnitude. If people are now getting hurt, it's because someone provoked the wasps. The notion that reactions must be proportionate to the offense is quite naive.
Idk what's more hilarious here, the implication that a Palestinian baby deserves to die because of what Hamas did or the implication that Jews are hyperaggressive animals that are completely incapable of moral reasoning.
Are you focusing solely on the casualties involving children? Does that mean any location with children is off-limits for retaliation, providing a shield for adversaries because children are present? This is not a simple game of hide and seek, nor is it your idealistic world where a slap is met with a turned cheek.
It's a common misconception that supporters of Israel are indifferent to the death of children or any civilian, for that matter, and you seem to be perpetuating this narrative. You choose the most objectionable point about an opponent to make an accusation, and, much like someone obstinately arguing without listening to reason, you consider yourself morally superior and in the right.
What, in your opinion, would be a suitable response to an attack from Hamas? Would peaceful protests, international condemnation, or sanctions suffice?
If you've discarded your spine, don't assume everyone else has done the same. An entity without the ability to react appropriately can only succumb.
If I get stung by a wasp nest sitting on my neighbor's house, I do not have the right to burn down my neighbor's house with them in it.
Hamas, the IDF, and the Israeli are all murderers. They all have blood on their hands.
Your narrative would hold if it weren't flawed; it's an oversimplification. Let's take your perspective where Hamas is the bees that stung Israel, and now Israel is retaliating against the land harboring the bee nest. (I use 'bees' here to distinguish from my earlier wasp analogy).
If your neighbor disliked the bees as much as you and agreed the nest was a problem, then certainly, destroying it with care to avoid collateral damage would be wise. However, the situation changes if your neighbor is a beekeeper who shields the bees in his home to protect them from you. If those bees become aggressive and harm your family, naturally, you'd first request the neighbor to remove the bees. Should they refuse, you'd have every right to seek external help. But what if the authorities do little, leaving you to suffer the stings while your neighbor faces minimal consequences? Rather than passively endure this, you might feel compelled to act independently to prevent future stings and deter the beekeeper from maintaining this threat.
Bullshit.
No government nor military should not get a carte blanche for murdering innocent civilians in the process of fighting a terrorist organization.
If you can't figure that one out on your own, I'm not debating with you.
Okay, then let's hypothetically say Israel forms a terrorist organization that doesn’t overlap with the Israeli government itself, would they then have the right to attack Gaza? This organization would essentially be in the same position relative to Israel as Hamas is to the Palestinians.
The way you debate reminds me of someone who might have abandoned their education prematurely. Are you going to complain to the teacher because you cannot acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed, incomplete, and biased? Your approach to this discussion is quite frankly, absurd.
These fuckers kidnapped US citizens, they deserve 100% of whatever bombs we throw at them until our people are freed.
Yes, because the US is a shining beacon of morality and peace.
Yes, those kids in that refugee camp had it coming I guess.
being both anti-israel and anti-hamas at the same time is the only correct position i don't understand why this isn't obvious
Because Hamas is the only resistance Palestinians have against the colonizer.
it isn't, actually. they have a government with a prime minister and a president which oppose hamas and which netanyahu wants nobody to pay attention to because they are the legitimate path to statehood
Well then Netanyahu is doing a great job because I heard that Hamas was elected by the palestinians and I never heard about another Palestinian government.
it was elected a long time ago and since then they have fallen out of favor and there was never an election again
You just gotta take that line of thought one step further. I believe in you.
I don't 👍
Yeah, what prompted this already ? can you remind us ?
What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?
Well, that not totally incorrect. The settlers starting moving in (before the nation was a thing) and started killing and displacing the existing inhabitants. It's been bad from the start, though they have had periods that are better than others. People excuse Israel for what Hamas has done, but rarely do those same people forgive Hamas for what the Jewish settlers have done.
Personally, I don't make a judgment on Hamas. They are a much weaker force against a much stronger force. If they fight a conventional war then they don't stand a chance. Gorilla warfare/terrorism is the only viable option for them. Israel uses terrorism every day, but it's only bad when Hamas does it?
I do judge Israel. They are a strong force, and more importantly are getting support from many other powerful nations. Until my country (the US) stops sending support, I will criticize their actions. I do not condone my money going towards what they do.
By escalating the conflict to a genocidal ground war, Israel's criminal leaders may have doomed not only Israelis, but the people of Ukraine as well.
Which supporters?
People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict
Don't confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.
People are already confusing the two, that's why it's an issue
It's deliberate. If you don't support Israel's apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.
Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel's nutters want Palestine gone.
But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.
I support the innocent Palestinian people who are being slaughtered. Does that mean I support Hamas? Because I think Hamas is an Iranian puppet that wants a Palestinian caliphate run under Sharia law. I don't think they help the Palestinian people either. So am I a Hamas supporter? By your definition, apparently.
I'm not sure what you think my definition was, can you expand on that part?
Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.
I'm not saying it's my personal opinion
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas.
There's a lot of dumbasses out there, which is sorta the issue.
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn't been helped much at all by international supporters, so it's not like they care about that.
The two are linked together. When aid has been sent to Palestine, to help Palestinians, Hamas has taken it for themselves. There was an EU project I believe to build water infrastructure, and Hamas took it apart to make into rockets.
I don't think it's possible to provide material support to the Palestinians. Hamas just takes it all. It's so fucked.
Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it's military and populace.
Might make people less happy to support pummeling them if they weren't acting like such villains
Yeah why would they use civilians as human shields to gather the physical and online support of the easily misled and swayed masses of the west
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters?
For one, all the Hamas supporters are asking the US to tell Israel to stop attacking them.
They're not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol
It’s easy to support Palestinian statehood. Anyone that supports Hamas is a moron.
I was about to say, who's out there supporting hamas
The tankies are all over it, actually.
Fucking deranged tankies man, their Lord and Savior Hasan Abi has been going off about how "baby settlers" are valid military targets. These people yearn to live under a propaganda-military dictatorship.
It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.
That’s it. I’m never voting for a tankie again.
Bro like literally 90% of Lemmy has a throbbing boner for Hamas and his stated antisemitic terrorists, even in this thread, terrorists apologizers abound
Weird that as a Jew who is pretty damn sensitive to antisemitism since I faced a lot of it growing up in religious Indiana, I haven't noticed this support for antisemitic terrorists on Lemmy. I've seen a lot of support for innocent people being slaughtered because of Israel's response to antisemitic terrorists, but that's a separate issue.
People in the U.S. protested the war in Afghanistan. Does that mean they supported Al Qaeda? Because this is some real "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" thinking from my perspective.
You've not been in these threads for very long, have you?
Tankies? The same people supporting Russia, China, and other brutalist regimes...
You’d be surprised, they’re out there
Considering Hamas is the organization governing Gaza right now, the two are often intertwined in these discussions
Governing is a generous term
Under any solution (one or two state), Hamas will be the ones in power and representing the Palestinian block. Doesn't matter if they do a good job of it or not.
How do you figure?
They are the de facto (and kind of de jure...) government of Gaza. Hell, they run the Health Ministry that provides a lot of the updates.
If this somehow ends with anything short of further subjugation and/or eradication, they will be "heroes". And they aren't going to lessen their hold on the Palestinian people.
They were also very unpopular before Oct 7 and I doubt they've gotten any more popular since then.
Popularity doesn't really matter when they were, and are, the power in charge in Gaza.
And "popularity" will go through the roof if, somehow, they are the ones that get the Israeli Government to stop being genocidal dicks and actually make concessions... by raping and murdering Israeli, German, and UK citizens?
Israel controls the borders
Yes Egypt also doesn't exists
it really is amazing how all the Hamas supporters simply refuse to acknowledge this one simple fact
It seems to me that Hamas "governs" Palestine the same way groups like the Mafia or Yakuza "govern" the people they extort.
Didn't the Palestinian people vote them in?
Almost 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians alive today were either too young to vote or hadn't even been born. How long after an election do you assume elected leaders have any real mandate?
My point was that regardless of their ability to do it, they were at one time the elected officials of the geographic location known as Gaza. They're obviously not a real government in policy and action, but they're the only thing that exists to even bear the term or concept of governance in the area.
There is no other group to be considered as the government, no matter how awful Hamas is at being a government of any variety.
At one time, yes, but I don't think we should be holding the Palestinians today to that. That would be like the Dubya era. If he had kept office until now, he would certainly not represent the opinion of Americans.
Hamas is embedded like a parasite, but there's better ways to point this out.
How long before you expect a population to be responsible for their country?
I don't blame North Koreans for being in a dictatorship, why would I blame Palestinians?
When their "leaders" don't represent them? Never. Same reason I don't hate on Israelis.
Like over a decade ago but they havent held elections since. I've seen countering articles saying Hamas has overwhelming support by the people, vs actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them. So who knows. Fog of war and all that.
Well that would result in them having overwhelming support, among the survivors that is.
Yes, democracy exists until we don't like it
What kind of democracy holds only a single election in 2006 and then no others?
Venezuela for starters
Venezuela is literally in the middle of an election year.
There is also the West Bank, however.
The West Bank has now been all but annexed by Israel.
Unfortunately
Yes, though most of the stuff is about Gaza
They're the same picture.
They shouldn't have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I'm no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It's like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.
I expect them not to commit war crimes at a bare minimum.
Yes, not indiscriminately murdering civilians would be nice.
Are you suggesting that when Israel bombs a refugee camp and kills all those innocent people that somehow that is a reasonable response?
It's a disproportionate response, and misdirected. But it is definitely a response to something real, which the more rabid anti-Israel types seem to gloss over.
It's a war crime.
Probably, yes.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but they're bombing refuge camps.
Yes it's a humanitarian disaster through and through, and the government response is internationally humiliating for Israel. I felt the same way when the USA started carpet bombing Baghdad after 9/11, although that was far worse and made much less sense.
It's genocide.
I'm not arrogant enough to think I have sufficient knowledge or access to reliable enough information to make that judgement. I can certainly say it's a humanitarian disaster and tragedy.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
What did you expect? Do you think that hitting a wasp nest with a rod just once means you'll only be stung once because you only hit it once? There's no rule stating that the wasps must respond with equal magnitude. If people are now getting hurt, it's because someone provoked the wasps. The notion that reactions must be proportionate to the offense is quite naive.
Idk what's more hilarious here, the implication that a Palestinian baby deserves to die because of what Hamas did or the implication that Jews are hyperaggressive animals that are completely incapable of moral reasoning.
Are you focusing solely on the casualties involving children? Does that mean any location with children is off-limits for retaliation, providing a shield for adversaries because children are present? This is not a simple game of hide and seek, nor is it your idealistic world where a slap is met with a turned cheek.
It's a common misconception that supporters of Israel are indifferent to the death of children or any civilian, for that matter, and you seem to be perpetuating this narrative. You choose the most objectionable point about an opponent to make an accusation, and, much like someone obstinately arguing without listening to reason, you consider yourself morally superior and in the right.
What, in your opinion, would be a suitable response to an attack from Hamas? Would peaceful protests, international condemnation, or sanctions suffice?
If you've discarded your spine, don't assume everyone else has done the same. An entity without the ability to react appropriately can only succumb.
If I get stung by a wasp nest sitting on my neighbor's house, I do not have the right to burn down my neighbor's house with them in it.
Hamas, the IDF, and the Israeli are all murderers. They all have blood on their hands.
Your narrative would hold if it weren't flawed; it's an oversimplification. Let's take your perspective where Hamas is the bees that stung Israel, and now Israel is retaliating against the land harboring the bee nest. (I use 'bees' here to distinguish from my earlier wasp analogy).
If your neighbor disliked the bees as much as you and agreed the nest was a problem, then certainly, destroying it with care to avoid collateral damage would be wise. However, the situation changes if your neighbor is a beekeeper who shields the bees in his home to protect them from you. If those bees become aggressive and harm your family, naturally, you'd first request the neighbor to remove the bees. Should they refuse, you'd have every right to seek external help. But what if the authorities do little, leaving you to suffer the stings while your neighbor faces minimal consequences? Rather than passively endure this, you might feel compelled to act independently to prevent future stings and deter the beekeeper from maintaining this threat.
Bullshit.
No government nor military should not get a carte blanche for murdering innocent civilians in the process of fighting a terrorist organization.
If you can't figure that one out on your own, I'm not debating with you.
Okay, then let's hypothetically say Israel forms a terrorist organization that doesn’t overlap with the Israeli government itself, would they then have the right to attack Gaza? This organization would essentially be in the same position relative to Israel as Hamas is to the Palestinians.
The way you debate reminds me of someone who might have abandoned their education prematurely. Are you going to complain to the teacher because you cannot acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed, incomplete, and biased? Your approach to this discussion is quite frankly, absurd.
These fuckers kidnapped US citizens, they deserve 100% of whatever bombs we throw at them until our people are freed.
Yes, because the US is a shining beacon of morality and peace.
Yes, those kids in that refugee camp had it coming I guess.
being both anti-israel and anti-hamas at the same time is the only correct position i don't understand why this isn't obvious
Because Hamas is the only resistance Palestinians have against the colonizer.
it isn't, actually. they have a government with a prime minister and a president which oppose hamas and which netanyahu wants nobody to pay attention to because they are the legitimate path to statehood
Well then Netanyahu is doing a great job because I heard that Hamas was elected by the palestinians and I never heard about another Palestinian government.
it was elected a long time ago and since then they have fallen out of favor and there was never an election again
You just gotta take that line of thought one step further. I believe in you.
I don't 👍
Yeah, what prompted this already ? can you remind us ?
What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?
Well, that not totally incorrect. The settlers starting moving in (before the nation was a thing) and started killing and displacing the existing inhabitants. It's been bad from the start, though they have had periods that are better than others. People excuse Israel for what Hamas has done, but rarely do those same people forgive Hamas for what the Jewish settlers have done.
Personally, I don't make a judgment on Hamas. They are a much weaker force against a much stronger force. If they fight a conventional war then they don't stand a chance. Gorilla warfare/terrorism is the only viable option for them. Israel uses terrorism every day, but it's only bad when Hamas does it?
I do judge Israel. They are a strong force, and more importantly are getting support from many other powerful nations. Until my country (the US) stops sending support, I will criticize their actions. I do not condone my money going towards what they do.
Which supporters? This is a boon to Vladimir Putin, as world attention and aid to Israel comes at a cost to support for Ukraine.
By escalating the conflict to a genocidal ground war, Israel's criminal leaders may have doomed not only Israelis, but the people of Ukraine as well.
People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict
Don't confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.
People are already confusing the two, that's why it's an issue
It's deliberate. If you don't support Israel's apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.
Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel's nutters want Palestine gone.
But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.
I support the innocent Palestinian people who are being slaughtered. Does that mean I support Hamas? Because I think Hamas is an Iranian puppet that wants a Palestinian caliphate run under Sharia law. I don't think they help the Palestinian people either. So am I a Hamas supporter? By your definition, apparently.
I'm not sure what you think my definition was, can you expand on that part?
Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.
I'm not saying it's my personal opinion
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.
There's a lot of dumbasses out there, which is sorta the issue.
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn't been helped much at all by international supporters, so it's not like they care about that.
The two are linked together. When aid has been sent to Palestine, to help Palestinians, Hamas has taken it for themselves. There was an EU project I believe to build water infrastructure, and Hamas took it apart to make into rockets.
I don't think it's possible to provide material support to the Palestinians. Hamas just takes it all. It's so fucked.
Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it's military and populace.
Might make people less happy to support pummeling them if they weren't acting like such villains
Yeah why would they use civilians as human shields to gather the physical and online support of the easily misled and swayed masses of the west
For one, all the Hamas supporters are asking the US to tell Israel to stop attacking them.