Hamas and Netanyahus rhetoric; name a more iconic due.
These fuckers fit hand and fucking glove.
Netanyahu: Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to eliminate the Jewish nation
Hamas: yeah he’s right
That's why Nethanyahu funded them.
All his investments paid off in this neat little casus belli.
He allowed Hamas to be funded but it's still horrific the hand he had in making this monster. He allowed Hamas to grow so it would fight those looking to negotiate toward a two-state solution.
For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.
Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.
Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.
Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
Nowhere does this say that Netanyahu funded Hamas.
Both of them have caused so much harm.
Like a well oiled meat grinder.
Netanyahu does not state that killing of civilians is his goal, nor does IDF purposely do that. Imagine the amount of civilian deaths if it were actually IDF’s goal, as it is for Hamas.
Your argument might have more weight if the head of national security wasn't a former member of the Kach party, a group Israel designated a terrorist group in 1994.
If I were a military commander in WW2 with the same technology we have today, and Hitler was out in the open at an elementary school graduation next to a preschool, I would not make that order. Instead, I'd mobilize intelligence agents to get there immediately and tail him, while moving my forces nearby.
I find it hard to believe that Israeli military and intelligence agencies could not track him and wait. The IDF just cares more about their own skin than they do of Palestinian children.
It took the US 10 years to track down Bin Laden, all the while he was still communicating with cells. In your example that is a LOT of quality holocaust time for Hitler.
There is no easy way out of the trolley problem of slippery genocidal targets popping up with a limited time window to execute.
This is an important distinction in my opinion. Does the IDF care if they kill palestinian civilians? No. But they aren't actively trying to murder as many palestinian civilians as they can either.
Being so incredibly nonchalant about killing civilians as the IDF is it's almost an insignificant difference imo.
They aren't? So why did they bomb Jabalia twice?
Quick update, they bombed it a third time today
How should I know. What I do know however is that if the IDF wanted, they could kill many more Gazans.
Seriously look at their actions and decide for yourself whether or not they are going out of their way to kill civilians or whether they are so careless they kill anyone on their way
The idea that the IDF would have to beat Gaza into a pulp so we can finally admit to ourselves that they don't care about civilians is weak, not to mention a logical fallacy. This isn't the indication to look for when war crimes happen. It's the actions of the IDF themselves.
Maybe they just want plausible deniability more than they want immediate genocide. It sure looks to me like that's what they're doing, and that it's working.
Because Hamas has used it as a base for decades…
Just like every other piece of civilian infrastructure.
You say Jabalia like it hasn’t been a city since the 40s. It’s not some tent city. It’s a legitimate city that has been around for decades, which Hamas only took control of after 2007.
Yes totally, that is enough excuse to shoot dead over a hundred people and wound hundreds more.
Tents or not, you're basically saying Israel bombed a crowded area and I'm afraid they are losing this one in the media. 😊
It's a refugee camp because people who live there are more victims of Israeli displacement.
It’s not a refugee camp at all. It’s a city that has existed for almost a century.
You can cheer for Hamas. Your emojis don’t mean shit lol. Nobody else supports them. Even “the media” (you sound like my drug addicted religious dad here).
what a shill. no where did the above comment support Hammas.
And the very fact that somehow bombing people taking refuge in a city rather than a refigee camp is something you needed to point out as though that changes anything ... That's very telling.
And lastly, Israel is losing the media war. 😊
It's not sustainable to kill more people and get away with it, not when even holocaust historians are alarmed at the Israeli rhetoric and massacre it keeps committing on a daily basis.
It's not a temporary housing measure. The buildings are all high-density multi-family dwellings constructed from reinforced concrete.
Calling it a refugee camp cheapens the word for people who are displaced from their homes and forced into temporary housing during a war.
It's still a refugee camp. It houses refugees who have been displaced. Many Palestinian refugee camps are X number of years old because Israel has been ethnically cleansing them for decades. It doesn't matter how you define it, no one "made shit up", it's classed as a refugee camp. The UN set it up as a camp, but here comes some random regular jackoff on lemmy trying to tell us otherwise.
The audacity of pro-Israelis in twisting all international definitions is beyond me.
Again, the very fact that it's been a refugee camp for decades where people have shitty living conditions makes this bombing that Israel did worse, not better.
The people living in that camp were done dirty by the 1949 armistice, don't get me wrong. But it's been 75 years; they need to move on.
Palestinians are literally the only refugees on the planet who pass down refugee status to their children. That's based on the definition that the UNmade up because the Arab countries didn't want to take in Palestinians.
They've had 75 years to move out of that camp and make their own lives better. At some point, they need wipe the snot off their noses and stop crying. The Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries faced adversity when they moved to Israel, but they've moved on and made their lives much better.
It's called the right of return. That's what you get when you create an apartheid state that does ethnic cleansing for breakfast.
@steventhedev@snek Oh wait, I misspoke, the "Jews" of the 1940's didn't have a "historical" connection to the last, they only had a RELIGIOUS connection to the land. Religion doesn't convey physical property rights, so talk about making shit up.
@steventhedev@snek The Jews didn't "move on" , they literally created "Zionism" and STOLE land they had only a mere historical connection to. Your entire post was completely delusional
They're not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol
It’s easy to support Palestinian statehood. Anyone that supports Hamas is a moron.
I was about to say, who's out there supporting hamas
The tankies are all over it, actually.
Fucking deranged tankies man, their Lord and Savior Hasan Abi has been going off about how "baby settlers" are valid military targets. These people yearn to live under a propaganda-military dictatorship.
It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.
That’s it. I’m never voting for a tankie again.
Bro like literally 90% of Lemmy has a throbbing boner for Hamas and his stated antisemitic terrorists, even in this thread, terrorists apologizers abound
Weird that as a Jew who is pretty damn sensitive to antisemitism since I faced a lot of it growing up in religious Indiana, I haven't noticed this support for antisemitic terrorists on Lemmy. I've seen a lot of support for innocent people being slaughtered because of Israel's response to antisemitic terrorists, but that's a separate issue.
People in the U.S. protested the war in Afghanistan. Does that mean they supported Al Qaeda? Because this is some real "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" thinking from my perspective.
You've not been in these threads for very long, have you?
Tankies? The same people supporting Russia, China, and other brutalist regimes...
You’d be surprised, they’re out there
Considering Hamas is the organization governing Gaza right now, the two are often intertwined in these discussions
Governing is a generous term
Under any solution (one or two state), Hamas will be the ones in power and representing the Palestinian block. Doesn't matter if they do a good job of it or not.
How do you figure?
They are the de facto (and kind of de jure...) government of Gaza. Hell, they run the Health Ministry that provides a lot of the updates.
If this somehow ends with anything short of further subjugation and/or eradication, they will be "heroes". And they aren't going to lessen their hold on the Palestinian people.
They were also very unpopular before Oct 7 and I doubt they've gotten any more popular since then.
Popularity doesn't really matter when they were, and are, the power in charge in Gaza.
And "popularity" will go through the roof if, somehow, they are the ones that get the Israeli Government to stop being genocidal dicks and actually make concessions... by raping and murdering Israeli, German, and UK citizens?
Israel controls the borders
how can Hamas do this
Yes Egypt also doesn't exists
it really is amazing how all the Hamas supporters simply refuse to acknowledge this one simple fact
It seems to me that Hamas "governs" Palestine the same way groups like the Mafia or Yakuza "govern" the people they extort.
Didn't the Palestinian people vote them in?
Almost 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians alive today were either too young to vote or hadn't even been born. How long after an election do you assume elected leaders have any real mandate?
My point was that regardless of their ability to do it, they were at one time the elected officials of the geographic location known as Gaza. They're obviously not a real government in policy and action, but they're the only thing that exists to even bear the term or concept of governance in the area.
There is no other group to be considered as the government, no matter how awful Hamas is at being a government of any variety.
At one time, yes, but I don't think we should be holding the Palestinians today to that. That would be like the Dubya era. If he had kept office until now, he would certainly not represent the opinion of Americans.
Hamas is embedded like a parasite, but there's better ways to point this out.
How long before you expect a population to be responsible for their country?
I don't blame North Koreans for being in a dictatorship, why would I blame Palestinians?
When their "leaders" don't represent them? Never. Same reason I don't hate on Israelis.
Like over a decade ago but they havent held elections since. I've seen countering articles saying Hamas has overwhelming support by the people, vs actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them. So who knows. Fog of war and all that.
actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them
Well that would result in them having overwhelming support, among the survivors that is.
Yes, democracy exists until we don't like it
What kind of democracy holds only a single election in 2006 and then no others?
Venezuela for starters
Venezuela is literally in the middle of an election year.
There is also the West Bank, however.
The West Bank has now been all but annexed by Israel.
Unfortunately
Yes, though most of the stuff is about Gaza
They're the same picture.
They shouldn't have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I'm no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It's like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.
I'm no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do?
I expect them not to commit war crimes at a bare minimum.
Yes, not indiscriminately murdering civilians would be nice.
Are you suggesting that when Israel bombs a refugee camp and kills all those innocent people that somehow that is a reasonable response?
It's a disproportionate response, and misdirected. But it is definitely a response to something real, which the more rabid anti-Israel types seem to gloss over.
It's a war crime.
Probably, yes.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but they're bombing refuge camps.
Yes it's a humanitarian disaster through and through, and the government response is internationally humiliating for Israel. I felt the same way when the USA started carpet bombing Baghdad after 9/11, although that was far worse and made much less sense.
It's genocide.
I'm not arrogant enough to think I have sufficient knowledge or access to reliable enough information to make that judgement. I can certainly say it's a humanitarian disaster and tragedy.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
What did you expect? Do you think that hitting a wasp nest with a rod just once means you'll only be stung once because you only hit it once?
There's no rule stating that the wasps must respond with equal magnitude. If people are now getting hurt, it's because someone provoked the wasps. The notion that reactions must be proportionate to the offense is quite naive.
Idk what's more hilarious here, the implication that a Palestinian baby deserves to die because of what Hamas did or the implication that Jews are hyperaggressive animals that are completely incapable of moral reasoning.
Are you focusing solely on the casualties involving children? Does that mean any location with children is off-limits for retaliation, providing a shield for adversaries because children are present? This is not a simple game of hide and seek, nor is it your idealistic world where a slap is met with a turned cheek.
It's a common misconception that supporters of Israel are indifferent to the death of children or any civilian, for that matter, and you seem to be perpetuating this narrative. You choose the most objectionable point about an opponent to make an accusation, and, much like someone obstinately arguing without listening to reason, you consider yourself morally superior and in the right.
What, in your opinion, would be a suitable response to an attack from Hamas? Would peaceful protests, international condemnation, or sanctions suffice?
If you've discarded your spine, don't assume everyone else has done the same. An entity without the ability to react appropriately can only succumb.
If I get stung by a wasp nest sitting on my neighbor's house, I do not have the right to burn down my neighbor's house with them in it.
Hamas, the IDF, and the Israeli are all murderers. They all have blood on their hands.
Your narrative would hold if it weren't flawed; it's an oversimplification. Let's take your perspective where Hamas is the bees that stung Israel, and now Israel is retaliating against the land harboring the bee nest. (I use 'bees' here to distinguish from my earlier wasp analogy).
If your neighbor disliked the bees as much as you and agreed the nest was a problem, then certainly, destroying it with care to avoid collateral damage would be wise. However, the situation changes if your neighbor is a beekeeper who shields the bees in his home to protect them from you. If those bees become aggressive and harm your family, naturally, you'd first request the neighbor to remove the bees. Should they refuse, you'd have every right to seek external help. But what if the authorities do little, leaving you to suffer the stings while your neighbor faces minimal consequences? Rather than passively endure this, you might feel compelled to act independently to prevent future stings and deter the beekeeper from maintaining this threat.
Bullshit.
No government nor military should not get a carte blanche for murdering innocent civilians in the process of fighting a terrorist organization.
If you can't figure that one out on your own, I'm not debating with you.
Okay, then let's hypothetically say Israel forms a terrorist organization that doesn’t overlap with the Israeli government itself, would they then have the right to attack Gaza? This organization would essentially be in the same position relative to Israel as Hamas is to the Palestinians.
The way you debate reminds me of someone who might have abandoned their education prematurely. Are you going to complain to the teacher because you cannot acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed, incomplete, and biased? Your approach to this discussion is quite frankly, absurd.
These fuckers kidnapped US citizens, they deserve 100% of whatever bombs we throw at them until our people are freed.
Yes, because the US is a shining beacon of morality and peace.
Yes, those kids in that refugee camp had it coming I guess.
being both anti-israel and anti-hamas at the same time is the only correct position i don't understand why this isn't obvious
Because Hamas is the only resistance Palestinians have against the colonizer.
it isn't, actually. they have a government with a prime minister and a president which oppose hamas and which netanyahu wants nobody to pay attention to because they are the legitimate path to statehood
Well then Netanyahu is doing a great job because I heard that Hamas was elected by the palestinians and I never heard about another Palestinian government.
it was elected a long time ago and since then they have fallen out of favor and there was never an election again
You just gotta take that line of thought one step further. I believe in you.
I don't 👍
Yeah, what prompted this already ? can you remind us ?
What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?
Well, that not totally incorrect. The settlers starting moving in (before the nation was a thing) and started killing and displacing the existing inhabitants. It's been bad from the start, though they have had periods that are better than others. People excuse Israel for what Hamas has done, but rarely do those same people forgive Hamas for what the Jewish settlers have done.
Personally, I don't make a judgment on Hamas. They are a much weaker force against a much stronger force. If they fight a conventional war then they don't stand a chance. Gorilla warfare/terrorism is the only viable option for them. Israel uses terrorism every day, but it's only bad when Hamas does it?
I do judge Israel. They are a strong force, and more importantly are getting support from many other powerful nations. Until my country (the US) stops sending support, I will criticize their actions. I do not condone my money going towards what they do.
By escalating the conflict to a genocidal ground war, Israel's criminal leaders may have doomed not only Israelis, but the people of Ukraine as well.
Which supporters?
People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict
Don't confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.
People are already confusing the two, that's why it's an issue
It's deliberate. If you don't support Israel's apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.
Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel's nutters want Palestine gone.
But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.
I support the innocent Palestinian people who are being slaughtered. Does that mean I support Hamas? Because I think Hamas is an Iranian puppet that wants a Palestinian caliphate run under Sharia law. I don't think they help the Palestinian people either. So am I a Hamas supporter? By your definition, apparently.
I'm not sure what you think my definition was, can you expand on that part?
Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.
I'm not saying it's my personal opinion
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas.
There's a lot of dumbasses out there, which is sorta the issue.
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn't been helped much at all by international supporters, so it's not like they care about that.
The two are linked together. When aid has been sent to Palestine, to help Palestinians, Hamas has taken it for themselves. There was an EU project I believe to build water infrastructure, and Hamas took it apart to make into rockets.
I don't think it's possible to provide material support to the Palestinians. Hamas just takes it all. It's so fucked.
Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it's military and populace.
Might make people less happy to support pummeling them if they weren't acting like such villains
Yeah why would they use civilians as human shields to gather the physical and online support of the easily misled and swayed masses of the west
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters?
For one, all the Hamas supporters are asking the US to tell Israel to stop attacking them.
A senior member of Hamas has hailed the systematic slaughter of civilians in Israel
When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”
who still thinks hamas are the good guys?
If you're coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a "good guys/bad guys" framework you're absolutely not helping.
Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.
The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn't looking great right now.
Only tankies. Literally no one out here with a braincell is defending Hamas.
They support Hamas? I’m not voting for them ever again. Obama was a tankie.
That isn't what a tankie is at all. A tankie is someone who defends authoritarian governments because the governments are "left wing" or rivals of the US. Having a left wing economic policy isn't even close. Hell you can be a Communist and still not be a tankie.
I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.
Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).
They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.
Bro even in the world news and the news instance they are all over Hamas. If they could, they would give him a BJ
Yeah, I shouldn’t have commented. That post ended up in my hot/all feed and I didn’t really look at the community. I was frankly quite confused as to what’s up with these people until I saw the upvoted Russian propaganda comment which cleared things up quite a bit.
I think one of my neighbors is a tankie, his car is really big.
Edit: Found this, The Useful Idiots”: How Activists Spread Marxism Across America
Nobody said they were.
edit: okay crazy people on a lemmygrad site said they were. But that page that guy linked looked about as nice as a 4chan site....
Considering I've been banned from World News at even suggesting reality in regards to how militaries fight in such conflicts...
Yeah, even mods are ban happy regarding Israel/Palestine lol.
Like the 90% of lemmy are terrorists apologizers at this point
More like they get accused of doing so even though their comment didn't mention Hamas and they were talking about Palestinian rights, and somewhere someone pops up telling them they sympathize with Hamas.
Yeah it's pretty much this almost every time
Lemmy users: why has Israel intentionally killed 3500+ children in such a short time?
People that support/ignore genocide like Shardikprime: why do you support Hamas?
Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.
The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.
I mean, Hamas took power by killing Palestinian civilians. They don’t represent anyone and they openly say they will martyr civilians.
The Palestinian National Authority (Fatah) was the democratically elected government of Palestine before 2007. Hamas staged a coup and executed Fatah officials, which is why Gaza and the West Bank are separate entities today.
Hamas is as much a state as Al-Qaeda. They’re a terrorist group that seized power by way of murder and have openly declared they intend to use their citizens as shields and martyrs.
They’re not a state. They’re a terror cell that deserves to be eliminated. Unfortunately their own admitted tactics of using civilians as shields means that civilians will be killed.
This is a lie. Hamas won the vote. The EU, UN, and the Carter Center all called those elections free and fair. If anything, Hamas was an underdog given that Israel, in collaboration with Fatah, kept arresting the politicians in Hamas as they defined Hamas a terrorist organization. Fatah and Israel wanted to delay the elections, but with the encouragement of the US (GWB in particular who felt Hamas would definitely not win), they decided to keep them as they were. Stop making things up to fit your narrative. Hamas still typically wins the popular vote in polling done since then. You have a fucking computer. Just google it. It's all there in black and white.
I mean they did have conflicts with Fatah. But the biggest fights weren't until after they won the election.
So where is Israel's responsibility there, in sponsoring terrorists? Or do we pretend notiing happened before the last few weeks because then we can sort of pretend Israel has no culpability, you know, if we squint and try to avoid looking at the bombing of civilians?
Yes they are. By their own admission in this article.
Hamas by their own damn admission uses civilians as shields and intends to martyr them.
Your article leaves out the fact that Israel funded and supported several Islamic organizations at the time in both Gaza and the West Bank. One became a terrorist institution.
Take the whole history into account. After the six day war, Israel was in the position that they needed all the support they could get. So they supported anyone that opposed the PLO, which was sponsored by Egypt and Fatah. Because that’s who they just were attacked by.
Israel funded dozens of Islamic organizations that were opposed to Fatah, including mosques and schools. Hamas came out of one of them.
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
If I could I'd give you an award or some kind of thing this is great
Difference is, Israel isn't meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.
Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel's treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.
The... what? I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn't make that somehow okay.
The IDF is dropping bombs on (suspected) Hamas holdouts, which are all conveniently located next to civilians.
Yeah... but they're still bombing civilians. The "human shields" thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.
Doesn't change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.
Right... so it's so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?
So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they're just a force of nature or something?
Again, you're also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.
And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they've gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they've had unconditional US state backing.
What do you think Israel should do then with Hamas? Let them get away with murdering more than 1200 Israelis? Conduct small-scale incursions at best? The fact of the matter is simply that the situation was fucked long before and the palestinian civilians were in accute danger of becoming collateral the moment the Hamas broke into Israel. If you are looking for a clearer good-guy bad-guy situation, look to the westbank. There, the Israeli settlers are clearly the ones in the wrong.
All the outrage in the world won't stop Israel from continuing to bomb Hamas in Gaza. On the other hand, Abbas and Fatah got Palestine the recognition of most UN member states. And unlike Hamas, Fatah isn't getting their civilians killed in droves.
I'm not looking for a clearer good-guy-bad-guy situation. I said in my first comment that both Hamas and Israel are enemies of the people.
I don't think either of them "should" do anything, but since "should" doesn't factor into either of their decisions, it's irrelevant anyway. They'll keep oppressing people until they are stopped by organised resistance, just like it is with any oppressive system.
Why do you say Israel and Hamas? Not Likud. Not otzma Yehudit. Just Israel. All of Israel is an enemy? But only Hamas when it comes to Palestine. What about the PLO? Are they fine? Yesh Atid? Or is it really just only Hamas but all of Israel?
Israel the state, who does not truly represent their citizens. I think the way I phrased it makes that pretty goddamn clear.
It makes sense because it doesn't violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?
100%. People here scream "genocide" and "war crimes" but have no idea what these words mean. The "friends" of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.
And? You're allowed to say what you mean, you know.
Where do the civilians being bombed fall on your spectrum of evil? Do they somehow deserve it in your eyes?
Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?
Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.
So like... don't do that? Maybe Israel shouldn't do that, because fucking obviously?
Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.
You're not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.
None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I'm sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.
But you're still ok with using artillery against a city if the city has an army in it?
What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?
What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?
I asked how this conflict was different and you started talking about a completely different topic like stategic bombing. But Israel isn't using strategic bombing, they're using artillery and missiles. Just like how the allies did against Berlin and other German cities when fighting the Germans. So how is this different?
The difference is that Israel has been colonising the west bank for over 70 years. They are the aggressors. They are more analogous to the Nazis in WWII for that reason anyway.
And yes, just like there were bad actors on the allied side in WWII, Hamas is also a bad actor.
This isn't... COMPLICATED.
This isn’t… COMPLICATED.
Honestly that's a pretty strange thing to say about one of history's most complicated and oldest conflicts. If it was as simple as random dudes online think it is, don't you think this issue would have been somehow resolved by now?
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have tribal roots in the region dating back thousands of years.
The region also has religions significance to all three of the big western religions.
And to make it even more complicated, the region has been under the control of multiple empires over the last 3000 years: waring tribes, Egyptians, Assyrians, Romans, Byzantines, the second Muslim caliphate, the Ottomans, the British, and I'm sure I'm skipping more. Israel and Palestine as nations where effectively created at around the same time post WW1 (see the Mandate for Palestine and the Balfour Declaration).
So sure.. It's possible that you're so much smarter than everyone else that one of the world's oldest conflicts is trivial to you, OR, just maybe it's a little bit more complicated than you and some other people let on...
"Were there not an Israel the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region."
Biden has reiterated this sentiment since this situation has started. His stance is completely unchanged. He admits openly that it is a power play, so any posturing about a "sacred bond" or whatever is bullshit.
It is power politics. The US is propping up Israel as a projection of power, and with that Israel has become ever more fascist without any accountability, and they have perpetrated a genocide because they have the power to, just like any state would in those circumstances, because they are all sociopathic institutions. That's it. There's nothing special about the Jewish nature of the state, it's got nothing to do with religion, that's just an excuse that gets laid over the top of what is simple exploitation.
It's a land grab and a genocide, and Hamas was propped up by Israel to serve their interests at the time. In fact you could say they're still serving Israel's interests, because Israel the state has no real interest in protecting their own civilians, they only want their land grab.
The "it's complicated" bullshit is just there to muddy the waters. It's a lazy handwave to cover the fact that you can't excuse genocide.
I'm sure this was necessary to get to the extremely small Hamas bunker that was surgically implanted in his skull, because those bastards were using him as a human shield.
This is an 100 year conflict, all the good guys are dead.
Why do people feel this need to be good/bad. Everybody knows by now how complex is the middle east
Literally supporting terrorists and apologize for them is bad
you shouldn't do that then
My impression is that at least half of fediverse.
You must be reading a very different slice of the fediverse than I am. I've been blocking Nazis, tankies, and other assorted idiots on sight since I started using Lemmy, and I've seen maybe a handful of people saying things that could be interpreted as supporting Hamas. They are vastly outnumbered by people decrying the slaughter of civilians and apologists for Israel.
My impression is that at least half of fediverse.
I got that impression too, and the fediverse has lost a lot of its shine recently. People are rushing to say that they support "both sides" and Israel can defend itself... but just not in any way that would be able to stop another attack like October's from happening. It feels like a lot of people just want to side with Hamas, but don't want to actually say that out loud.
They aren’t going about this in a way that stops this from happening is the problem. You’re so wrapped up in the Zionist narrative that they’ve tricked you into thinking extermination is the final solution.
Britain didn’t get rid of the IRA by bombing and blockading Ireland. There was no ground invasion despite thousands dying in bombings and other violence.
The fact is that the attack in October and others like it happen because the extreme Zionists like Likud have taken steps to ensure this. Because they’re creating a situation where they can be horrifically brutal but hide behind good pr narratives. They literally propped up Hamas at its inception with the stated goal of fracturing Fatah which was a moderate party suing for a two state solution.
As long as Israel keeps killing Palestinians in the West Bank where there IS NO HAMAS, they will keep driving support for any group that resists Israel.
You can get far more innocent civilians on your side if you treat them better than Hamas. Knowing everything we know about how Hamas treats them should tell you just how bad Israel treats them on top of that.
You stop this by removing the war mongers from power first and foremost. As long as Netanyahu’s party has control there can never be peace. Because like Hamas, they want a one state solution too.
It's been a very eye-opening experience over the past month to see just how little the left cares about victims of violence if they happen to be Jewish.
As someone on the left, I can't exactly disagree. When there's violence against Jews, some people constantly bring up Israel. They respond to a story about antisemitism being on the rise by saying criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism. And it's ironic, because by saying that about antisemitic attacks, they're the ones confusing the two.
This needs to be pointed out to them more often. I don't think most of them realize it.
The leftists always have been nazis at heart
Nah. Don't let the current situation fool you. You've seen that I'm very pro-Israel in my other comments. But there are many of us that are lefties through and through. I mean most Jews in the US lean slightly left of the democrats. I lean further. And David ben Gurion was super leftist. Hardcore socialist commie pinko, that one. If I had been around for the founding of Israel, I'd probably have been kicking back on a kibbutz somewhere.
But the right is definitely not our friend. Most of them support Israel for christo-fascist dreams of the apocalypse. They want to use us. And we should be careful to think that we are the ones using them.
I do not know where you are from, but especially concerning the US and Europe, I do think it's important to understand where this support comes from -- even if they don't actually know it either. It's the underdog problem. Israel is much stronger than in the past. We have won many wars against people who wished to murder us all. We became a force to be reckoned with. And the Palestinian territories are the underdog. And the left has normalized seeing the underdog as the marginalized victim. They are not used to seeing an underdog victimizer. From South Africa to Ireland to PoCs and the LGBT+ communities, they are used to things going one way. And things are not one way. There is a whole 3d plane of possibilities in this world. And that's why I argue more about Israel than anything else on here. To try to help people see that things are not black and white. This isn't a left or right issue. This isn't a David vs Goliath issue. This is something that cannot be boiled down to simple concepts or comparisons. And the more you know, the harder it really is to if not agree with what Israel is doing, to at least understand why they might make the choices they do. And it is not for the sole purpose of ethnic cleansing or genocide. At least not for the majority.
Tactically their October 7 attack was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?
They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.
I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.
To answer the question, what they think would happen: Their October 7th attacked achieved everything they wanted.
KSA and Israel we're coming to an understanding and treaty, that was against the interests of Iran who is in a power struggle with the KSA.
After their attack, it is now politically impossible for the KSA and Israel to have a treaty. That alone justifies this entire conflict from their power politics perspective
They never had any hope of inflicting damage on the Israeli government. They clearly don't care about their own civilian casualties. In fact The worst the reprisals the better for their recruitment and funding efforts.
Probably not directly related to the rationale for their attack, but it got them some ancillary support, it removed Russia's aggression from the news media cycle. Which probably got them some favor in those circles.
From a media perspective, this has been a massive Boone for their campaign. They more or less had disappeared from international headlines for the last 10 years. Now everybody is talking about the genocide, and the ethnic cleansing. They're going to pay very dearly for it, but that's more media attention than they've had for a decade.
Ok yes I can follow that. The cynical thing is that in none of the reasons the Palestinian people are central. Those are victimized by both the Israelis and Hamas, following this rationale.
An extra cynical level is that the wished of the extreme right Israelis and Hamas are the same. To keep this war going indefinitely, not matter the cost of human life.
In what kind of setting would this be proposed? 'listen we might invite genocidal terror on our own people, but Russia needs some radio silence and we crave media attention' and everyone involved going like 'that's absolutely worth it brother'.
Maybe I'm too naive, I cannot see the tactical gain in that perspective. Thanks though, for good counter points. It helps me trying to make some kind of sense of this.
It's straight Machiavelli politics.
I highly recommend you read, or listen to, The Prince by Machiavelli. It's a very short read, but helps you get in the right frame of mind for this type of politicking
Yeah I know Machiavelli, I don't remember suicidal tactics, though, and certainly not playing according to ones worst enemies playbook.
But mass media wasn't around in the Renaissance..
The whole philosophy is how to get the outcomes you want, any means are justified.
Saying person X is playing into person Ys playbook is making huge assumptions about their goals.
We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.
We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.
And I thank you for that exposition, however cynical it does give some reason to what appears madness.
But if it comes to serving the people of Palestine they aren't really doing that, rather the opposite.
Hamas is not working in the best interest of Palestine civilians, they are working in the best interest of Hamas - Which is a fascist theocratic military organization with goals of ethnic cleansing.
The only issue at question is why did the Gazan people feel that Hamas was their best option in 2006 when they were elected into office? I don't really know, I can speculate that the hopeless turn to extreme religious war mongers for even the promise of a better future, or failing that the promise of a fight as they are erased from history.... some people, when they have no hope, will hold on to revenge.
Since 2006, and the failed coup in 2007, Hamas hasn't held any elections and runs as a dictatorship.
They most certainly are not.
Piece of shit, pouring oil onto fire while the civilians are getting slaughtered at this point on both sides. If there is hell, this one should burn.
Edit: I've never seen anyone defend Hamas, only civilian Palestinians. Just to make that clear distinction.
Bro you merely have to look at this thread and the weekly world news/news threads to see leftists terrorist apologizers
That's why I'm trying to limit my time here, but I also just want to follow the news and see some cat pics.
Best thing to do is condemn terrorist Hamas on the one side and Netanyahu/IDF/extremist settlers that harass West bank palestinians on the other side.
And pray for the Jewish and Palestinian civilians. Because they are the ones suffering.
Antisemitic people, if I had to make a guess
Mostly leftists
I still don't understand what's so hard about condemning antisemitism and giving them the boot. You can't truly be left wing, at least socially, if you aren't making it clear bigots aren't welcome.
We've come full circle now too -- they've mixed up criticism of Israel and antisemitism.
Hamas killed 1400 civilians.
The IDF has killed about 9500 civilians so far.
I dunno, I think that Hamas may not be the good guys, but they're definitely the less bad guys.
Give hamas same weaponry and intel as profoundly shit as IDF and israel might as well be one big crater
Okay, but they don't. And they likely never will.
Right now it's like a 6yo child that punches you as hard as they can in the balls, and you respond by beating the fuck out of them with a tire iron. The fact that you could straight-up murder the child by shooting them in the fucking face doesn't mean that breaking every bone in their hands along with both legs to "teach them a lesson" would be appropriate or proportionate.
For sure, but that wasn't really my point, which was intentions and goals. Hamas is not a "good guy" since they will take every chance of murdering and kidnapping israeli citizens if it's by high-precision missiles or fucking gliders straight out of a comic book, and israelis aren't the "good guys" for barraging palestinian civvies while taking tiktoks.
I feel vile for all this good guys bad guys rhetoric ffs gotta take a showa
Israel did knowingly bomb a refugee camp. Twice. Kind of hard to defend that behavior as "self defense".
Replying to a wrong comment perhaps?
Oh, I'm not saying that Hamas is good guys. They're not. They're terrorists.
But by the scope and scale, by the amount of force that they're able to bring to bear, and by the sheer number of non-combatants being killed, the IDF is far, far worse. Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.
The Allied forces utilized the tactics of total-war during WWII, with things like the firebombing of Dresden, or Tokyo. The idea was to break the will of the people to fight. Well, spoiler: it doesn't work. When you kill someone's whole family, their friends, blow up their house and community, they end up having an even stronger desire to fight back. Just like the bombings of London by Germany increased the resolve of Britons, so did the indiscriminate massacre of civilians by the Allies increase the resolve of the Germans.
The actions of the IDF are going to give Hamas it's next generation of fighters, people willing to die to kill Israel.
Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.
I think the former is way worse. Besides, there's no point in debating this. They're both horrible. Agreed? Then let's move on.
To be fair, and I realize it's difficult to be fair here:
The Israeli government has said it is going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas has said it is going for the total destruction of the Israeli government... They've taken up equivalent positions
I think what that really means, is both belligerents are going to try the radical new policy of killing more random civilians, and seeing if anything changes..
No. Israel has said they are going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas is a government entity and the ruling government of Gaza.
Hamas has said they are going for the total destruction of Israel the nation. Including all Jewish civilians. Not the government, all Jewish people in Israel.
That’s been Hamas’ position for years. They want to eliminate all Jews from the region.
Literally in the article that this post is about, they said they are trying to avoid civilians. It's blatant fucking lie, but it's what they're saying.
You just said that they're going publicly, for the destruction of all Jewish people, that contradicts the article that we're talking about here. If they're stated goal is the death of Jewish people, why would they try to avoid Jewish casualties, why would they say that? If it's in their charter shouldn't they reinforce it when they're talking in public?
Nothing in that article at all says they have tried to avoid casualties.
“Israel is a country that has no place on our land,” Hamad said in an interview with Lebanese TV channel LBC on October 24, which was translated and published Wednesday by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI). “We must remove it because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nation. We are not ashamed to say this.”
In the interview, Hamad said that Israel’s existence is “illogical” and that it must be wiped off all “Palestinian lands,” a term the terror group uses to mean the West Bank, Gaza and Israel, minus the Golan Heights.
When asked whether this meant the complete annihilation of Israel, Hamas replied: “Yes, of course.”
“We must teach Israel a lesson, and we will do it twice and three times. The Al-Aqsa Deluge [the name Hamas gave its October 7 onslaught] is just the first time, and there will be a second, a third, a fourth,” Hamad continued. “Will we have to pay a price? Yes, and we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs, and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”
“We are the victims of the occupation. Period. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October one-millionth, everything we do is justified,” Hamad said.
So they intentionally attacked civilians, this dude is claiming they know they attacked civilians, they will do it again and again and again until they completely eliminate the entire nation of Israel. Which includes all Jews in the region.
But hey, they claimed the land originally by genociding everyone that lived there too. So it’s par for the course.
You know, I was going to point out how terrible his argument is, but there's no need for that. It should be no surprise that they are just as craven as they say they are.
He also repeated the false assertion that Hamas had not intended to harm civilians, but that there were “complications” on the ground.
From the article above
Finish the quote:
Overwhelming evidence has emerged over the past three weeks of deliberate attacks against Israeli civilians, as part of the instructions given by Hamas commanders. In many cases, the terrorists went from house to house and executed or burned entire families, and some 260 civilians were massacred at an outdoor music festival.
Your mental gymnastics are Olympic level, mate.
I'm not defending either government. They both clearly killed civilians intentionally
They've both made statements they wanted to destroy the opposing government.
Pointing that out shouldn't be controversial.
I gave you the relevant part of the quote, from the article, were Hamas was laying out their policy. They're lying, but their policy as stated is equivalent to the Israeli government policy. Which is exactly what you were asking me to provide in your previous comment
Their policy is also stated in their charter, which goes beyond just killing all Israeli civilians. It says they will kill all the Jews everywhere in the world.
But perhaps you'd prefer to see actions - Israel is currently engaged in urban combat with an enemy who intentionally uses civilian infrastructure (a war crime, by the way). There will be collateral damage from this, especially when Hamas don't allow civilians to evacuate out of the heavy combat areas.
Hamas on the other hand are continuing to launch rockets daily at civilian targets in Israel, intentionally targeting civilians while celebrating every rocket siren.
Literally in the article that this post is about, they said they are trying to avoid civilians.
Yeah... so... after them killing over 1200 Israelis, the vast majority of them civilians, everyone they could get their hands on basically, I kinda don't trust them.
100%, they're lying through their teeth.
Yeah… so… after them killing over 5,000 Palestinians, the vast majority of them civilians, everyone they could get their hands on basically, I kinda don’t trust them.
everyone they could get their hands on basically,
If that utter nonsense was true there would be 100x as many dead.
Well I've done some maths, and I'm pretty sure the IDF can kill the population of Gaza faster than Hamas can kill the population of Israel.
That's exactly what Hamas wants to see because that's what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.
They don't give a shit about the Palestinian people.
Not lost them a lot of international support so far, I'll be honest.
While they may still be reeling from the loss of Bolivia, the people they do business with on a daily basis have picked their sides and stuck to it.
Nobody is going to invade for humanitarian reasons. That only happens for very weak nations that have no international support.
The government of Israel has amazing international support, first class weaponry, outclassing all of its neighbors militaries by orders of magnitude, and a ambiguous nuclear strike capability.
They could literally take every one of their oppressed civilians, drop them into a vat of acid, live streaming on the internet indefinitely, and nobody's going to invade.
Give countries something to fight over, some material resource, and there will be a war, water, energy, access to trade, but humanitarian philosophies are things few people are willing to die for.
Who said anything about humanitarian invasions? Why are you arguing against something you made up?
You said That's exactly what Hamas wants to see because that's what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.
I had assumed your Arab nation invasion was due to the death of Palestinian civilians. In your scenario why are the Arab nations invading?
Because from their perspective someone invaded their land and is now vulnerable to getting kicked off it. The only reason Israel exists is because it's supported by the US and Europe. Take away that support and Israel goes away.
The intended result for Hamas is for Israel to respond with actions that erode the very support that they depend on for security against invasion from surrounding arab nations that don't need any new reasons to attack Israel apart from the very existence of Israel in the first place.
Even if all external countries cut off military aid, Israel still is sitting on nuclear weapons. It's unlikely anyone would try to invade them, they don't want to get nuked.
But in this scenario over the course of 5 to 10 years, they would be less able to power project beyond their borders. That's true.
But let's not forget the The geographic neighbors, the military peers, are incredibly weak. So Israel becoming weak doesn't really make their jobs any easier
Hamas saw that Bibi is digging a giant hole for himself and said “I want in”
Have Hamas ever heard of endlings? It's the last of a species before it goes extinct.
You will run out of Palestinians to get bombed before that.
Whelp… ya gotta have a hobby.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas leaders are actually undercover IDF
So, just to be clear, you're saying that the attack against Israel was actually a secret Jewish conspiracy to make Hamas look bad?
Stop equating israelis to Jews
More like a way to give Israel a casus belli to turn Gaza into a parking lot.
Not saying that’s what happened, but as far as theofascist stayed go I wouldn’t be surprised
Didn't Netanyahu prop up Hamas? That's all the info I need to know. That and one conversation with a Zionist, they are out of their mind and will straight up say that Palestinians don't deserve to live. That conversation was over a decade ago and it still gives me the creepy crawlys... it was like talking to a proud Nazi that firmly believed in his ideology.
Zionists fall under the category of most religious extremeist- stupid and dangerous. If we could drop all zionists in a hunger games scenario with all members of hamas, maybe throw the Catholic Church in there too.
Except nobody wins we just burn it down when they’re done killing each other like they’re going to do anyway.
Ever heard of a false flag attack?
Yes. Repeatedly and constantly. It's the rallying cry of the morons. Reality doesn't fit my worldview so it's reality that's wrong!
Israel ≠ Jews. Why are you repeating Hamas talking points?
Hamas and Netanyahus rhetoric; name a more iconic due.
These fuckers fit hand and fucking glove.
Netanyahu: Hamas is a terrorist organization that wants to eliminate the Jewish nation
Hamas: yeah he’s right
That's why Nethanyahu funded them.
All his investments paid off in this neat little casus belli.
He allowed Hamas to be funded but it's still horrific the hand he had in making this monster. He allowed Hamas to grow so it would fight those looking to negotiate toward a two-state solution.
Proof or it didn't happen
I think this is what @SlikPikker@lemmy.ca is talking about:
Excerpt from For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces by Tal Schneider and published by The Times of Israel.
Just so!
Nowhere does this say that Netanyahu funded Hamas.
Both of them have caused so much harm.
Like a well oiled meat grinder.
Netanyahu does not state that killing of civilians is his goal, nor does IDF purposely do that. Imagine the amount of civilian deaths if it were actually IDF’s goal, as it is for Hamas.
Your argument might have more weight if the head of national security wasn't a former member of the Kach party, a group Israel designated a terrorist group in 1994.
But they kill plenty anyway.
Oops?
Right human shields don't exist
They bombed a refugee camp. Twice.
If I were a military commander in WW2 with the same technology we have today, and Hitler was out in the open at an elementary school graduation next to a preschool, I would not make that order. Instead, I'd mobilize intelligence agents to get there immediately and tail him, while moving my forces nearby.
I find it hard to believe that Israeli military and intelligence agencies could not track him and wait. The IDF just cares more about their own skin than they do of Palestinian children.
It took the US 10 years to track down Bin Laden, all the while he was still communicating with cells. In your example that is a LOT of quality holocaust time for Hitler.
There is no easy way out of the trolley problem of slippery genocidal targets popping up with a limited time window to execute.
Both can exist. Don't get binary.
He doesn't? https://timesofindia.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-cites-amalek-theory-to-justify-gaza-killings/articleshow/104802548.cms
This is an important distinction in my opinion. Does the IDF care if they kill palestinian civilians? No. But they aren't actively trying to murder as many palestinian civilians as they can either.
Being so incredibly nonchalant about killing civilians as the IDF is it's almost an insignificant difference imo.
They aren't? So why did they bomb Jabalia twice?
Quick update, they bombed it a third time today
How should I know. What I do know however is that if the IDF wanted, they could kill many more Gazans.
Seriously look at their actions and decide for yourself whether or not they are going out of their way to kill civilians or whether they are so careless they kill anyone on their way
The idea that the IDF would have to beat Gaza into a pulp so we can finally admit to ourselves that they don't care about civilians is weak, not to mention a logical fallacy. This isn't the indication to look for when war crimes happen. It's the actions of the IDF themselves.
Just look at all the times Israel told civilians to move to one place them bombed the shit out of the place.
Maybe they just want plausible deniability more than they want immediate genocide. It sure looks to me like that's what they're doing, and that it's working.
Because Hamas has used it as a base for decades…
Just like every other piece of civilian infrastructure.
You say Jabalia like it hasn’t been a city since the 40s. It’s not some tent city. It’s a legitimate city that has been around for decades, which Hamas only took control of after 2007.
Yes totally, that is enough excuse to shoot dead over a hundred people and wound hundreds more.
Tents or not, you're basically saying Israel bombed a crowded area and I'm afraid they are losing this one in the media. 😊
It's a refugee camp because people who live there are more victims of Israeli displacement.
It’s not a refugee camp at all. It’s a city that has existed for almost a century.
You can cheer for Hamas. Your emojis don’t mean shit lol. Nobody else supports them. Even “the media” (you sound like my drug addicted religious dad here).
what a shill. no where did the above comment support Hammas.
First, I didn't cheer for Hamas.
Also, That area is still a refugee camp. You are confusing Jabalia city with the Jabalia refugee camp.. It's okay to be wrong, you just have to admit it to yourself.
And the very fact that somehow bombing people taking refuge in a city rather than a refigee camp is something you needed to point out as though that changes anything ... That's very telling.
And lastly, Israel is losing the media war. 😊 It's not sustainable to kill more people and get away with it, not when even holocaust historians are alarmed at the Israeli rhetoric and massacre it keeps committing on a daily basis.
Jabalia Refugee Camp was established in 1948.
It's not a temporary housing measure. The buildings are all high-density multi-family dwellings constructed from reinforced concrete.
Calling it a refugee camp cheapens the word for people who are displaced from their homes and forced into temporary housing during a war.
It's still a refugee camp. It houses refugees who have been displaced. Many Palestinian refugee camps are X number of years old because Israel has been ethnically cleansing them for decades. It doesn't matter how you define it, no one "made shit up", it's classed as a refugee camp. The UN set it up as a camp, but here comes some random regular jackoff on lemmy trying to tell us otherwise.
The audacity of pro-Israelis in twisting all international definitions is beyond me.
Again, the very fact that it's been a refugee camp for decades where people have shitty living conditions makes this bombing that Israel did worse, not better.
The people living in that camp were done dirty by the 1949 armistice, don't get me wrong. But it's been 75 years; they need to move on.
Palestinians are literally the only refugees on the planet who pass down refugee status to their children. That's based on the definition that the UN made up because the Arab countries didn't want to take in Palestinians.
They've had 75 years to move out of that camp and make their own lives better. At some point, they need wipe the snot off their noses and stop crying. The Jews who were ethnically cleansed from the Arab countries faced adversity when they moved to Israel, but they've moved on and made their lives much better.
It's called the right of return. That's what you get when you create an apartheid state that does ethnic cleansing for breakfast.
@steventhedev @snek Oh wait, I misspoke, the "Jews" of the 1940's didn't have a "historical" connection to the last, they only had a RELIGIOUS connection to the land. Religion doesn't convey physical property rights, so talk about making shit up.
@steventhedev @snek The Jews didn't "move on" , they literally created "Zionism" and STOLE land they had only a mere historical connection to. Your entire post was completely delusional
Hurricane of shit meeting tornado of blood
(bars)
They're not doing their supporters any favours with these sort of comments lol
It’s easy to support Palestinian statehood. Anyone that supports Hamas is a moron.
I was about to say, who's out there supporting hamas
The tankies are all over it, actually.
Fucking deranged tankies man, their Lord and Savior Hasan Abi has been going off about how "baby settlers" are valid military targets. These people yearn to live under a propaganda-military dictatorship.
It’s crazy because I’m pretty sure a lot of them would be considered “undesirables” in the societies they claim to want to live in.
That’s it. I’m never voting for a tankie again.
Bro like literally 90% of Lemmy has a throbbing boner for Hamas and his stated antisemitic terrorists, even in this thread, terrorists apologizers abound
Weird that as a Jew who is pretty damn sensitive to antisemitism since I faced a lot of it growing up in religious Indiana, I haven't noticed this support for antisemitic terrorists on Lemmy. I've seen a lot of support for innocent people being slaughtered because of Israel's response to antisemitic terrorists, but that's a separate issue.
People in the U.S. protested the war in Afghanistan. Does that mean they supported Al Qaeda? Because this is some real "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists" thinking from my perspective.
You've not been in these threads for very long, have you?
Tankies? The same people supporting Russia, China, and other brutalist regimes...
You’d be surprised, they’re out there
Considering Hamas is the organization governing Gaza right now, the two are often intertwined in these discussions
Governing is a generous term
Under any solution (one or two state), Hamas will be the ones in power and representing the Palestinian block. Doesn't matter if they do a good job of it or not.
How do you figure?
They are the de facto (and kind of de jure...) government of Gaza. Hell, they run the Health Ministry that provides a lot of the updates.
If this somehow ends with anything short of further subjugation and/or eradication, they will be "heroes". And they aren't going to lessen their hold on the Palestinian people.
They were also very unpopular before Oct 7 and I doubt they've gotten any more popular since then.
Popularity doesn't really matter when they were, and are, the power in charge in Gaza.
And "popularity" will go through the roof if, somehow, they are the ones that get the Israeli Government to stop being genocidal dicks and actually make concessions... by raping and murdering Israeli, German, and UK citizens?
Israel controls the borders
Yes Egypt also doesn't exists
it really is amazing how all the Hamas supporters simply refuse to acknowledge this one simple fact
It seems to me that Hamas "governs" Palestine the same way groups like the Mafia or Yakuza "govern" the people they extort.
Didn't the Palestinian people vote them in?
Almost 20 years ago, when the majority of Palestinians alive today were either too young to vote or hadn't even been born. How long after an election do you assume elected leaders have any real mandate?
My point was that regardless of their ability to do it, they were at one time the elected officials of the geographic location known as Gaza. They're obviously not a real government in policy and action, but they're the only thing that exists to even bear the term or concept of governance in the area.
There is no other group to be considered as the government, no matter how awful Hamas is at being a government of any variety.
At one time, yes, but I don't think we should be holding the Palestinians today to that. That would be like the Dubya era. If he had kept office until now, he would certainly not represent the opinion of Americans.
Hamas is embedded like a parasite, but there's better ways to point this out.
How long before you expect a population to be responsible for their country?
I don't blame North Koreans for being in a dictatorship, why would I blame Palestinians?
When their "leaders" don't represent them? Never. Same reason I don't hate on Israelis.
Like over a decade ago but they havent held elections since. I've seen countering articles saying Hamas has overwhelming support by the people, vs actually Hamas murders anyone who goes against them. So who knows. Fog of war and all that.
Well that would result in them having overwhelming support, among the survivors that is.
Yes, democracy exists until we don't like it
What kind of democracy holds only a single election in 2006 and then no others?
Venezuela for starters
Venezuela is literally in the middle of an election year.
There is also the West Bank, however.
The West Bank has now been all but annexed by Israel.
Unfortunately
Yes, though most of the stuff is about Gaza
They're the same picture.
They shouldn't have any fucking supporters. This is the shit all the anti-Israel people are supporting. I'm no fan of Netanyahu but wtf do they expect Israel to do? It's like everyone forgot what prompted this and thinks Israel just woke up one morning and decided to raze everything because they were bored.
I expect them not to commit war crimes at a bare minimum.
Yes, not indiscriminately murdering civilians would be nice.
Are you suggesting that when Israel bombs a refugee camp and kills all those innocent people that somehow that is a reasonable response?
It's a disproportionate response, and misdirected. But it is definitely a response to something real, which the more rabid anti-Israel types seem to gloss over.
It's a war crime.
Probably, yes.
Israel has a right to defend itself, but they're bombing refuge camps.
Yes it's a humanitarian disaster through and through, and the government response is internationally humiliating for Israel. I felt the same way when the USA started carpet bombing Baghdad after 9/11, although that was far worse and made much less sense.
It's genocide.
I'm not arrogant enough to think I have sufficient knowledge or access to reliable enough information to make that judgement. I can certainly say it's a humanitarian disaster and tragedy.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
What did you expect? Do you think that hitting a wasp nest with a rod just once means you'll only be stung once because you only hit it once? There's no rule stating that the wasps must respond with equal magnitude. If people are now getting hurt, it's because someone provoked the wasps. The notion that reactions must be proportionate to the offense is quite naive.
Idk what's more hilarious here, the implication that a Palestinian baby deserves to die because of what Hamas did or the implication that Jews are hyperaggressive animals that are completely incapable of moral reasoning.
Are you focusing solely on the casualties involving children? Does that mean any location with children is off-limits for retaliation, providing a shield for adversaries because children are present? This is not a simple game of hide and seek, nor is it your idealistic world where a slap is met with a turned cheek.
It's a common misconception that supporters of Israel are indifferent to the death of children or any civilian, for that matter, and you seem to be perpetuating this narrative. You choose the most objectionable point about an opponent to make an accusation, and, much like someone obstinately arguing without listening to reason, you consider yourself morally superior and in the right.
What, in your opinion, would be a suitable response to an attack from Hamas? Would peaceful protests, international condemnation, or sanctions suffice?
If you've discarded your spine, don't assume everyone else has done the same. An entity without the ability to react appropriately can only succumb.
If I get stung by a wasp nest sitting on my neighbor's house, I do not have the right to burn down my neighbor's house with them in it.
Hamas, the IDF, and the Israeli are all murderers. They all have blood on their hands.
Your narrative would hold if it weren't flawed; it's an oversimplification. Let's take your perspective where Hamas is the bees that stung Israel, and now Israel is retaliating against the land harboring the bee nest. (I use 'bees' here to distinguish from my earlier wasp analogy).
If your neighbor disliked the bees as much as you and agreed the nest was a problem, then certainly, destroying it with care to avoid collateral damage would be wise. However, the situation changes if your neighbor is a beekeeper who shields the bees in his home to protect them from you. If those bees become aggressive and harm your family, naturally, you'd first request the neighbor to remove the bees. Should they refuse, you'd have every right to seek external help. But what if the authorities do little, leaving you to suffer the stings while your neighbor faces minimal consequences? Rather than passively endure this, you might feel compelled to act independently to prevent future stings and deter the beekeeper from maintaining this threat.
Bullshit.
No government nor military should not get a carte blanche for murdering innocent civilians in the process of fighting a terrorist organization.
If you can't figure that one out on your own, I'm not debating with you.
Okay, then let's hypothetically say Israel forms a terrorist organization that doesn’t overlap with the Israeli government itself, would they then have the right to attack Gaza? This organization would essentially be in the same position relative to Israel as Hamas is to the Palestinians.
The way you debate reminds me of someone who might have abandoned their education prematurely. Are you going to complain to the teacher because you cannot acknowledge that your reasoning is flawed, incomplete, and biased? Your approach to this discussion is quite frankly, absurd.
These fuckers kidnapped US citizens, they deserve 100% of whatever bombs we throw at them until our people are freed.
Yes, because the US is a shining beacon of morality and peace.
Yes, those kids in that refugee camp had it coming I guess.
being both anti-israel and anti-hamas at the same time is the only correct position i don't understand why this isn't obvious
Because Hamas is the only resistance Palestinians have against the colonizer.
it isn't, actually. they have a government with a prime minister and a president which oppose hamas and which netanyahu wants nobody to pay attention to because they are the legitimate path to statehood
Well then Netanyahu is doing a great job because I heard that Hamas was elected by the palestinians and I never heard about another Palestinian government.
it was elected a long time ago and since then they have fallen out of favor and there was never an election again
You just gotta take that line of thought one step further. I believe in you.
I don't 👍
Yeah, what prompted this already ? can you remind us ?
What prompted this? You mean the decades of occupation? Or are you suggesting history only began with the Hamas attack?
Well, that not totally incorrect. The settlers starting moving in (before the nation was a thing) and started killing and displacing the existing inhabitants. It's been bad from the start, though they have had periods that are better than others. People excuse Israel for what Hamas has done, but rarely do those same people forgive Hamas for what the Jewish settlers have done.
Personally, I don't make a judgment on Hamas. They are a much weaker force against a much stronger force. If they fight a conventional war then they don't stand a chance. Gorilla warfare/terrorism is the only viable option for them. Israel uses terrorism every day, but it's only bad when Hamas does it?
I do judge Israel. They are a strong force, and more importantly are getting support from many other powerful nations. Until my country (the US) stops sending support, I will criticize their actions. I do not condone my money going towards what they do.
Which supporters? This is a boon to Vladimir Putin, as world attention and aid to Israel comes at a cost to support for Ukraine.
By escalating the conflict to a genocidal ground war, Israel's criminal leaders may have doomed not only Israelis, but the people of Ukraine as well.
People supporting the Palestinian side in this conflict
Don't confuse support for Palestinians as support for Hamas.
People are already confusing the two, that's why it's an issue
It's deliberate. If you don't support Israel's apartheid of Palestine, you are apparently antisemitic and want Israel destroyed.
Hamas is not helping things. They are bunch of murderous religious nutters. They do want Israel gone. Just like how Israel's nutters want Palestine gone.
But Hamas are not Palestine anymore than Israel is its religious nutters.
I support the innocent Palestinian people who are being slaughtered. Does that mean I support Hamas? Because I think Hamas is an Iranian puppet that wants a Palestinian caliphate run under Sharia law. I don't think they help the Palestinian people either. So am I a Hamas supporter? By your definition, apparently.
I'm not sure what you think my definition was, can you expand on that part?
Well you seem to be implying that the support for Palestinians is support for Hamas.
I'm not saying it's my personal opinion
The only issue I see are the dumbasses that cant tell the difference, supporting Palestinians doesn’t mean support for Hamas. But if you don’t think they need some sort of military support in one way or another you don’t need to be making comments about it and need to instead go back and read a little history about the Israelie Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity thats taken place. Hell you wouldn’t even have to go back in time very far but a year maybe less, but I suggest to get the full picture and decent understanding to allow yourself to come and discuss world topics with other adults that you start from the beginning.
There's a lot of dumbasses out there, which is sorta the issue.
Not to condone their actions, but what would Hamas care about getting supporters? Palestine situation hasn't been helped much at all by international supporters, so it's not like they care about that.
The two are linked together. When aid has been sent to Palestine, to help Palestinians, Hamas has taken it for themselves. There was an EU project I believe to build water infrastructure, and Hamas took it apart to make into rockets.
I don't think it's possible to provide material support to the Palestinians. Hamas just takes it all. It's so fucked.
Palestine is dependent on foreign aid to continue its war fighting. Specifically aid from western nations. They need supporters to feed, fuel and supply it's military and populace.
Might make people less happy to support pummeling them if they weren't acting like such villains
Yeah why would they use civilians as human shields to gather the physical and online support of the easily misled and swayed masses of the west
For one, all the Hamas supporters are asking the US to tell Israel to stop attacking them.
who still thinks hamas are the good guys?
If you're coming to any international conflict, but specially to this one, from a "good guys/bad guys" framework you're absolutely not helping.
Sometimes (a lot of times, sadly) all you get in a particular issue is just assholes all the way down. Unsurprisingly, deadly military conflicts where both sides have proven at best a callous disregard for civilian casualties practically requires the asshole pile to be expansive and thorough.
The question is how you get the endless, writhing mass of assholes to stop. Which isn't looking great right now.
Only tankies. Literally no one out here with a braincell is defending Hamas.
They support Hamas? I’m not voting for them ever again. Obama was a tankie.
That isn't what a tankie is at all. A tankie is someone who defends authoritarian governments because the governments are "left wing" or rivals of the US. Having a left wing economic policy isn't even close. Hell you can be a Communist and still not be a tankie.
I made the mistake of commenting on this post where people clearly think that the Hamas are the good guys and have every right to do what they do. Apologies for linking to it.
Of course if you go to tankie central you get tankies. They’re also acting like Putin didn’t order the shelling and capture of Ukrainian cities and it’s all just (insert kremlin talking point here).
They are a specific niche of political mind. The kind that only thinks western nations are capable of propaganda and evil. Don’t take them as representative of smarter people.
Bro even in the world news and the news instance they are all over Hamas. If they could, they would give him a BJ
Yeah, I shouldn’t have commented. That post ended up in my hot/all feed and I didn’t really look at the community. I was frankly quite confused as to what’s up with these people until I saw the upvoted Russian propaganda comment which cleared things up quite a bit.
I think one of my neighbors is a tankie, his car is really big.
Edit: Found this, The Useful Idiots”: How Activists Spread Marxism Across America
Nobody said they were.
edit: okay crazy people on a lemmygrad site said they were. But that page that guy linked looked about as nice as a 4chan site....
Considering I've been banned from World News at even suggesting reality in regards to how militaries fight in such conflicts...
Yeah, even mods are ban happy regarding Israel/Palestine lol.
Like the 90% of lemmy are terrorists apologizers at this point
More like they get accused of doing so even though their comment didn't mention Hamas and they were talking about Palestinian rights, and somewhere someone pops up telling them they sympathize with Hamas.
Yeah it's pretty much this almost every time
Lemmy users: why has Israel intentionally killed 3500+ children in such a short time?
People that support/ignore genocide like Shardikprime: why do you support Hamas?
Who still thinks any state is the good guys? Hamas and Israel are both enemies of the people.
The only way to cut through the propagandistic lies of these groups is to point out that neither truly represents the people they say they do.
I mean, Hamas took power by killing Palestinian civilians. They don’t represent anyone and they openly say they will martyr civilians.
The Palestinian National Authority (Fatah) was the democratically elected government of Palestine before 2007. Hamas staged a coup and executed Fatah officials, which is why Gaza and the West Bank are separate entities today.
Hamas is as much a state as Al-Qaeda. They’re a terrorist group that seized power by way of murder and have openly declared they intend to use their citizens as shields and martyrs.
They’re not a state. They’re a terror cell that deserves to be eliminated. Unfortunately their own admitted tactics of using civilians as shields means that civilians will be killed.
This is a lie. Hamas won the vote. The EU, UN, and the Carter Center all called those elections free and fair. If anything, Hamas was an underdog given that Israel, in collaboration with Fatah, kept arresting the politicians in Hamas as they defined Hamas a terrorist organization. Fatah and Israel wanted to delay the elections, but with the encouragement of the US (GWB in particular who felt Hamas would definitely not win), they decided to keep them as they were. Stop making things up to fit your narrative. Hamas still typically wins the popular vote in polling done since then. You have a fucking computer. Just google it. It's all there in black and white.
I mean they did have conflicts with Fatah. But the biggest fights weren't until after they won the election.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_(2007)
The elections in 2006 is not when Hamas took power. Their coup in 2007 was.
They aren't making the IDF bomb apartment buildings, which is something they've been doing for decades, before Israel helped create Hamas.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
So where is Israel's responsibility there, in sponsoring terrorists? Or do we pretend notiing happened before the last few weeks because then we can sort of pretend Israel has no culpability, you know, if we squint and try to avoid looking at the bombing of civilians?
Yes they are. By their own admission in this article.
Hamas by their own damn admission uses civilians as shields and intends to martyr them.
Your article leaves out the fact that Israel funded and supported several Islamic organizations at the time in both Gaza and the West Bank. One became a terrorist institution.
Take the whole history into account. After the six day war, Israel was in the position that they needed all the support they could get. So they supported anyone that opposed the PLO, which was sponsored by Egypt and Fatah. Because that’s who they just were attacked by.
Israel funded dozens of Islamic organizations that were opposed to Fatah, including mosques and schools. Hamas came out of one of them.
That article has such a stupid take. It takes tiny pieces of quotes from a couple of ex-Israeli officials and with one of them is clearly omitting context. Did Israel permit Islamist groups to do stuff like build mosques and have charities? Yes. Did he also say, but it is not mentioned in the article, that they were completely peaceful at the time and that Israel didn't want to be viewed as attacking Islam? Also yes.
See, what you are saying is that Israel created Hamas by not using more oppression to stop these groups at a time when they were not attacking Israel, but the PLO was. And that is just such a simple naive take that it is ridiculous. Yeah if Israel could redo things, they might have decided that was a good idea. But then again, what if it just caused more attacks from the surrounding countries after they were claimed to be "attacking Islam." Then would we also blame Israel for those attacks due to them repressing the Islamist movements?
It even does the same by using cherry picked foresight about Afghanistan. It entirely ignores the situation in Afghanistan and just implies that the US caused Al Qaeda. Things just aren't that simple. It's entirely possible that had the US and other countries not interfered in Afghanistan that the soviet union would've lasted longer and Afghanistan might've been another Chechnya.
At the time, Israel was having to fight against the PLO. They were not fighting against the religious Islamic groups. And knowing the history of the time period and the politics in the region, the very religious groups were not nearly the force that they are now. So they made choices for reasons that absolutely made sense at the time. And we have no way of knowing how things would be different if they made different choices.
We can say that places that aren't Israel still have issues with the Muslim brotherhood or are friendly with them all over the middle east. And Israel certainly didn't create the Muslim Brotherhood. And if Israel didn't exist and it was all a Palestinian state with a secular government, it isn't a stretch to say that they would be in that area too, calling for an Islamist government. As they have done in Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and more.
If I could I'd give you an award or some kind of thing this is great
Difference is, Israel isn't meant to represent palestinian people, Hamas is. And they are doing a great job of it, if their job is getting civilians killed.
Edit: Just think about the massive protests against Netanyahu earlier in the year. Do those show how in tune the Israeli government and people are? No. But the very fact they could protest mostly peacefully differentiates Israel's treatment of its population from all of its neighbours.
The... what? I have no idea what you're even trying to say.
The IDF is still dropping bombs on civilians. You can invent whatever bullshit you feel like, it doesn't make that somehow okay.
The IDF is dropping bombs on (suspected) Hamas holdouts, which are all conveniently located next to civilians.
Yeah... but they're still bombing civilians. The "human shields" thing makes no sense. Israel was bombing apartment buildings before they helped create Hamas.
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
Doesn't change the fact that in this conflict, the IDF are trying to get Hamas targets with their attacks. And that the Hamas are the ones that built their infrastructure next to civilians, that Hamas did kill Israeli civilians indiscriminately and that the Hamas knew full well, that by building their infrastructure next to civilians and by mindlessly raiding Israeli territory, the IDF would respond and kill palestinian civilians while doing so. Israel wants to crush Hamas. Hamas wants as many people to die as possible, so that Israel is made a pariah internationally.
Right... so it's so predictable that the IDF would bomb civilians that any provocation makes the provoker guilty of their murders?
So basically the IDF are so irredeemable in your eyes they're just a force of nature or something?
Again, you're also ignoring the fact that Israel created Hamas.
And Israel SHOULD be a pariah. The only reason they've gotten away with this genocide for so long is because they've had unconditional US state backing.
What do you think Israel should do then with Hamas? Let them get away with murdering more than 1200 Israelis? Conduct small-scale incursions at best? The fact of the matter is simply that the situation was fucked long before and the palestinian civilians were in accute danger of becoming collateral the moment the Hamas broke into Israel. If you are looking for a clearer good-guy bad-guy situation, look to the westbank. There, the Israeli settlers are clearly the ones in the wrong.
All the outrage in the world won't stop Israel from continuing to bomb Hamas in Gaza. On the other hand, Abbas and Fatah got Palestine the recognition of most UN member states. And unlike Hamas, Fatah isn't getting their civilians killed in droves.
I'm not looking for a clearer good-guy-bad-guy situation. I said in my first comment that both Hamas and Israel are enemies of the people.
I don't think either of them "should" do anything, but since "should" doesn't factor into either of their decisions, it's irrelevant anyway. They'll keep oppressing people until they are stopped by organised resistance, just like it is with any oppressive system.
Why do you say Israel and Hamas? Not Likud. Not otzma Yehudit. Just Israel. All of Israel is an enemy? But only Hamas when it comes to Palestine. What about the PLO? Are they fine? Yesh Atid? Or is it really just only Hamas but all of Israel?
Israel the state, who does not truly represent their citizens. I think the way I phrased it makes that pretty goddamn clear.
It makes sense because it doesn't violate Geneva conventions. If there are combatants hiding among civilians their deaths are 100% on said combatants. What do you expect Israel to do? After a terrorist attack that is equal to 17 (!) times the scope of 9/11 just to shrug it off and send more humanitarian aid to be pillaged by Hamas?
100%. People here scream "genocide" and "war crimes" but have no idea what these words mean. The "friends" of Palestine here make even Reddit look normal.
The Palestine territories are vassal states of Israel. Israel is ultimately responsible for the safety of civilians in the territory they control.
There are levels of evil.
And? You're allowed to say what you mean, you know.
Where do the civilians being bombed fall on your spectrum of evil? Do they somehow deserve it in your eyes?
Ok, I have to ask. How would you apply this to any other conflict. For example the Allies fighting against Germany. Where did the German civilians fall in the spectrum of evil. Was fighting Germany justified, knowing that German civilians might suffer? If so, how is this situation different?
Strategic bombing - ie, the indiscriminate bombing of populated areas - was ineffective and immoral, and people at the time condemned it as such, and they were right to do so. It was also wrong to use Japanese cities as testbeds for nuclear arms. There was no real strategic reason to do it.
So like... don't do that? Maybe Israel shouldn't do that, because fucking obviously?
Like yes, there were bad states on the allied side in WWII as well. You can see that in how they conducted themselves after the war was over, and at many points before that. In fact the policies of the Nazis were directly inspired by US genocides.
You're not going to trip me up by bringing up the Nazis. I said states are the enemy of the people, and I meant it.
None of what I said should be construed as support for the fascist axis powers, that should just be obvious, but I'm sure I have to say it, because people are just going to try it on.
But you're still ok with using artillery against a city if the city has an army in it?
What? Why? Where did I say that? What the fuck are you talking about?
I asked how this conflict was different and you started talking about a completely different topic like stategic bombing. But Israel isn't using strategic bombing, they're using artillery and missiles. Just like how the allies did against Berlin and other German cities when fighting the Germans. So how is this different?
The difference is that Israel has been colonising the west bank for over 70 years. They are the aggressors. They are more analogous to the Nazis in WWII for that reason anyway.
And yes, just like there were bad actors on the allied side in WWII, Hamas is also a bad actor.
This isn't... COMPLICATED.
Honestly that's a pretty strange thing to say about one of history's most complicated and oldest conflicts. If it was as simple as random dudes online think it is, don't you think this issue would have been somehow resolved by now?
Both the Israelis and the Palestinians have tribal roots in the region dating back thousands of years.
The region also has religions significance to all three of the big western religions.
And to make it even more complicated, the region has been under the control of multiple empires over the last 3000 years: waring tribes, Egyptians, Assyrians, Romans, Byzantines, the second Muslim caliphate, the Ottomans, the British, and I'm sure I'm skipping more. Israel and Palestine as nations where effectively created at around the same time post WW1 (see the Mandate for Palestine and the Balfour Declaration).
So sure.. It's possible that you're so much smarter than everyone else that one of the world's oldest conflicts is trivial to you, OR, just maybe it's a little bit more complicated than you and some other people let on...
This is why it's happening: https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4962369/user-clip-joe-biden-israel-usa-invent-israel-protect-interest-region
"Were there not an Israel the United States of America would have to invent an Israel to protect her interest in the region."
Biden has reiterated this sentiment since this situation has started. His stance is completely unchanged. He admits openly that it is a power play, so any posturing about a "sacred bond" or whatever is bullshit.
It is power politics. The US is propping up Israel as a projection of power, and with that Israel has become ever more fascist without any accountability, and they have perpetrated a genocide because they have the power to, just like any state would in those circumstances, because they are all sociopathic institutions. That's it. There's nothing special about the Jewish nature of the state, it's got nothing to do with religion, that's just an excuse that gets laid over the top of what is simple exploitation.
It's a land grab and a genocide, and Hamas was propped up by Israel to serve their interests at the time. In fact you could say they're still serving Israel's interests, because Israel the state has no real interest in protecting their own civilians, they only want their land grab.
The "it's complicated" bullshit is just there to muddy the waters. It's a lazy handwave to cover the fact that you can't excuse genocide.
Israel pulled out of Palestine in 2005 and Palestine elected their own government, at that point they're an independent nation.
Oh good, so IDF snipers shooting Palestinian children in 2019 couldn't be happening: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-21/ty-article/.premium/the-protest-dispersed-then-an-israeli-sniper-shot-a-9-year-old-boy-in-the-head/0000017f-e3ff-d9aa-afff-fbffde890000
I'm sure this was necessary to get to the extremely small Hamas bunker that was surgically implanted in his skull, because those bastards were using him as a human shield.
Similar story much more recently: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-65812442
That kid was two years old. Must've been a really small bunker.
Seems like a really common tactic, apparently the rates of Palestinian children being shot by the IDF was increasing before this latest situation started: https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
Yup, good thing Israel left and this couldn't possibly be happening.
Attacking civilians to stop an apartheid from getting more money and support is evil.
Making up reasons after you target civilians and journalists is another level of evil.
This is an 100 year conflict, all the good guys are dead.
Why do people feel this need to be good/bad. Everybody knows by now how complex is the middle east
Literally supporting terrorists and apologize for them is bad
you shouldn't do that then
My impression is that at least half of fediverse.
You must be reading a very different slice of the fediverse than I am. I've been blocking Nazis, tankies, and other assorted idiots on sight since I started using Lemmy, and I've seen maybe a handful of people saying things that could be interpreted as supporting Hamas. They are vastly outnumbered by people decrying the slaughter of civilians and apologists for Israel.
I got that impression too, and the fediverse has lost a lot of its shine recently. People are rushing to say that they support "both sides" and Israel can defend itself... but just not in any way that would be able to stop another attack like October's from happening. It feels like a lot of people just want to side with Hamas, but don't want to actually say that out loud.
They aren’t going about this in a way that stops this from happening is the problem. You’re so wrapped up in the Zionist narrative that they’ve tricked you into thinking extermination is the final solution.
Britain didn’t get rid of the IRA by bombing and blockading Ireland. There was no ground invasion despite thousands dying in bombings and other violence.
The fact is that the attack in October and others like it happen because the extreme Zionists like Likud have taken steps to ensure this. Because they’re creating a situation where they can be horrifically brutal but hide behind good pr narratives. They literally propped up Hamas at its inception with the stated goal of fracturing Fatah which was a moderate party suing for a two state solution.
As long as Israel keeps killing Palestinians in the West Bank where there IS NO HAMAS, they will keep driving support for any group that resists Israel.
You can get far more innocent civilians on your side if you treat them better than Hamas. Knowing everything we know about how Hamas treats them should tell you just how bad Israel treats them on top of that.
You stop this by removing the war mongers from power first and foremost. As long as Netanyahu’s party has control there can never be peace. Because like Hamas, they want a one state solution too.
It's been a very eye-opening experience over the past month to see just how little the left cares about victims of violence if they happen to be Jewish.
As someone on the left, I can't exactly disagree. When there's violence against Jews, some people constantly bring up Israel. They respond to a story about antisemitism being on the rise by saying criticism of Israel isn't antisemitism. And it's ironic, because by saying that about antisemitic attacks, they're the ones confusing the two.
This needs to be pointed out to them more often. I don't think most of them realize it.
The leftists always have been nazis at heart
Nah. Don't let the current situation fool you. You've seen that I'm very pro-Israel in my other comments. But there are many of us that are lefties through and through. I mean most Jews in the US lean slightly left of the democrats. I lean further. And David ben Gurion was super leftist. Hardcore socialist commie pinko, that one. If I had been around for the founding of Israel, I'd probably have been kicking back on a kibbutz somewhere.
But the right is definitely not our friend. Most of them support Israel for christo-fascist dreams of the apocalypse. They want to use us. And we should be careful to think that we are the ones using them.
I do not know where you are from, but especially concerning the US and Europe, I do think it's important to understand where this support comes from -- even if they don't actually know it either. It's the underdog problem. Israel is much stronger than in the past. We have won many wars against people who wished to murder us all. We became a force to be reckoned with. And the Palestinian territories are the underdog. And the left has normalized seeing the underdog as the marginalized victim. They are not used to seeing an underdog victimizer. From South Africa to Ireland to PoCs and the LGBT+ communities, they are used to things going one way. And things are not one way. There is a whole 3d plane of possibilities in this world. And that's why I argue more about Israel than anything else on here. To try to help people see that things are not black and white. This isn't a left or right issue. This isn't a David vs Goliath issue. This is something that cannot be boiled down to simple concepts or comparisons. And the more you know, the harder it really is to if not agree with what Israel is doing, to at least understand why they might make the choices they do. And it is not for the sole purpose of ethnic cleansing or genocide. At least not for the majority.
Tactically their October 7 attack was incredibly silly, honestly what did they think would happen?
They gave Netanyahu, who was finally fumbling at the reigns after almost thirty years aan excuse to execute his wet dreams and all of Israel uniting behind him.
I see no way how they could have thought the attack would benefit their cause.
To answer the question, what they think would happen: Their October 7th attacked achieved everything they wanted.
KSA and Israel we're coming to an understanding and treaty, that was against the interests of Iran who is in a power struggle with the KSA.
After their attack, it is now politically impossible for the KSA and Israel to have a treaty. That alone justifies this entire conflict from their power politics perspective
They never had any hope of inflicting damage on the Israeli government. They clearly don't care about their own civilian casualties. In fact The worst the reprisals the better for their recruitment and funding efforts.
Probably not directly related to the rationale for their attack, but it got them some ancillary support, it removed Russia's aggression from the news media cycle. Which probably got them some favor in those circles.
From a media perspective, this has been a massive Boone for their campaign. They more or less had disappeared from international headlines for the last 10 years. Now everybody is talking about the genocide, and the ethnic cleansing. They're going to pay very dearly for it, but that's more media attention than they've had for a decade.
Ok yes I can follow that. The cynical thing is that in none of the reasons the Palestinian people are central. Those are victimized by both the Israelis and Hamas, following this rationale.
An extra cynical level is that the wished of the extreme right Israelis and Hamas are the same. To keep this war going indefinitely, not matter the cost of human life.
In what kind of setting would this be proposed? 'listen we might invite genocidal terror on our own people, but Russia needs some radio silence and we crave media attention' and everyone involved going like 'that's absolutely worth it brother'.
Maybe I'm too naive, I cannot see the tactical gain in that perspective. Thanks though, for good counter points. It helps me trying to make some kind of sense of this.
It's straight Machiavelli politics.
I highly recommend you read, or listen to, The Prince by Machiavelli. It's a very short read, but helps you get in the right frame of mind for this type of politicking
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm
Yeah I know Machiavelli, I don't remember suicidal tactics, though, and certainly not playing according to ones worst enemies playbook.
But mass media wasn't around in the Renaissance..
The whole philosophy is how to get the outcomes you want, any means are justified.
Saying person X is playing into person Ys playbook is making huge assumptions about their goals.
We can only infer and guess as to the organizational goals at play. We can line up the incentives for their actions, as I did two posts up, and say their behavior is consistent with these incentives.
And I thank you for that exposition, however cynical it does give some reason to what appears madness.
But if it comes to serving the people of Palestine they aren't really doing that, rather the opposite.
Hamas is not working in the best interest of Palestine civilians, they are working in the best interest of Hamas - Which is a fascist theocratic military organization with goals of ethnic cleansing.
The only issue at question is why did the Gazan people feel that Hamas was their best option in 2006 when they were elected into office? I don't really know, I can speculate that the hopeless turn to extreme religious war mongers for even the promise of a better future, or failing that the promise of a fight as they are erased from history.... some people, when they have no hope, will hold on to revenge.
Since 2006, and the failed coup in 2007, Hamas hasn't held any elections and runs as a dictatorship.
They most certainly are not.
Piece of shit, pouring oil onto fire while the civilians are getting slaughtered at this point on both sides. If there is hell, this one should burn.
Edit: I've never seen anyone defend Hamas, only civilian Palestinians. Just to make that clear distinction.
Bro you merely have to look at this thread and the weekly world news/news threads to see leftists terrorist apologizers
That's why I'm trying to limit my time here, but I also just want to follow the news and see some cat pics.
Best thing to do is condemn terrorist Hamas on the one side and Netanyahu/IDF/extremist settlers that harass West bank palestinians on the other side.
And pray for the Jewish and Palestinian civilians. Because they are the ones suffering.
Antisemitic people, if I had to make a guess
Mostly leftists
I still don't understand what's so hard about condemning antisemitism and giving them the boot. You can't truly be left wing, at least socially, if you aren't making it clear bigots aren't welcome.
We've come full circle now too -- they've mixed up criticism of Israel and antisemitism.
Hamas killed 1400 civilians.
The IDF has killed about 9500 civilians so far.
I dunno, I think that Hamas may not be the good guys, but they're definitely the less bad guys.
Give hamas same weaponry and intel as profoundly shit as IDF and israel might as well be one big crater
Okay, but they don't. And they likely never will.
Right now it's like a 6yo child that punches you as hard as they can in the balls, and you respond by beating the fuck out of them with a tire iron. The fact that you could straight-up murder the child by shooting them in the fucking face doesn't mean that breaking every bone in their hands along with both legs to "teach them a lesson" would be appropriate or proportionate.
For sure, but that wasn't really my point, which was intentions and goals. Hamas is not a "good guy" since they will take every chance of murdering and kidnapping israeli citizens if it's by high-precision missiles or fucking gliders straight out of a comic book, and israelis aren't the "good guys" for barraging palestinian civvies while taking tiktoks.
I feel vile for all this good guys bad guys rhetoric ffs gotta take a showa
Israel did knowingly bomb a refugee camp. Twice. Kind of hard to defend that behavior as "self defense".
Replying to a wrong comment perhaps?
Oh, I'm not saying that Hamas is good guys. They're not. They're terrorists.
But by the scope and scale, by the amount of force that they're able to bring to bear, and by the sheer number of non-combatants being killed, the IDF is far, far worse. Hamas targeted civilians on purpose, the IDF is simply indiscriminate.
The Allied forces utilized the tactics of total-war during WWII, with things like the firebombing of Dresden, or Tokyo. The idea was to break the will of the people to fight. Well, spoiler: it doesn't work. When you kill someone's whole family, their friends, blow up their house and community, they end up having an even stronger desire to fight back. Just like the bombings of London by Germany increased the resolve of Britons, so did the indiscriminate massacre of civilians by the Allies increase the resolve of the Germans.
The actions of the IDF are going to give Hamas it's next generation of fighters, people willing to die to kill Israel.
I think the former is way worse. Besides, there's no point in debating this. They're both horrible. Agreed? Then let's move on.
To be fair, and I realize it's difficult to be fair here:
The Israeli government has said it is going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas has said it is going for the total destruction of the Israeli government... They've taken up equivalent positions
I think what that really means, is both belligerents are going to try the radical new policy of killing more random civilians, and seeing if anything changes..
No. Israel has said they are going for the total destruction of Hamas. Hamas is a government entity and the ruling government of Gaza.
Hamas has said they are going for the total destruction of Israel the nation. Including all Jewish civilians. Not the government, all Jewish people in Israel.
That’s been Hamas’ position for years. They want to eliminate all Jews from the region.
Literally in the article that this post is about, they said they are trying to avoid civilians. It's blatant fucking lie, but it's what they're saying.
You just said that they're going publicly, for the destruction of all Jewish people, that contradicts the article that we're talking about here. If they're stated goal is the death of Jewish people, why would they try to avoid Jewish casualties, why would they say that? If it's in their charter shouldn't they reinforce it when they're talking in public?
If we're pulling in outside sources. https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Nope. Quote it then if you’re so sure.
Nothing in that article at all says they have tried to avoid casualties.
So they intentionally attacked civilians, this dude is claiming they know they attacked civilians, they will do it again and again and again until they completely eliminate the entire nation of Israel. Which includes all Jews in the region.
But hey, they claimed the land originally by genociding everyone that lived there too. So it’s par for the course.
You know, I was going to point out how terrible his argument is, but there's no need for that. It should be no surprise that they are just as craven as they say they are.
He also repeated the false assertion that Hamas had not intended to harm civilians, but that there were “complications” on the ground.
From the article above
Finish the quote:
Your mental gymnastics are Olympic level, mate.
I'm not defending either government. They both clearly killed civilians intentionally
They've both made statements they wanted to destroy the opposing government.
Pointing that out shouldn't be controversial.
I gave you the relevant part of the quote, from the article, were Hamas was laying out their policy. They're lying, but their policy as stated is equivalent to the Israeli government policy. Which is exactly what you were asking me to provide in your previous comment
Their policy is also stated in their charter, which goes beyond just killing all Israeli civilians. It says they will kill all the Jews everywhere in the world.
But perhaps you'd prefer to see actions - Israel is currently engaged in urban combat with an enemy who intentionally uses civilian infrastructure (a war crime, by the way). There will be collateral damage from this, especially when Hamas don't allow civilians to evacuate out of the heavy combat areas.
Hamas on the other hand are continuing to launch rockets daily at civilian targets in Israel, intentionally targeting civilians while celebrating every rocket siren.
Yeah... so... after them killing over 1200 Israelis, the vast majority of them civilians, everyone they could get their hands on basically, I kinda don't trust them.
100%, they're lying through their teeth.
Yeah… so… after them killing over 5,000 Palestinians, the vast majority of them civilians, everyone they could get their hands on basically, I kinda don’t trust them.
If that utter nonsense was true there would be 100x as many dead.
Well I've done some maths, and I'm pretty sure the IDF can kill the population of Gaza faster than Hamas can kill the population of Israel.
That's exactly what Hamas wants to see because that's what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.
They don't give a shit about the Palestinian people.
Not lost them a lot of international support so far, I'll be honest.
While they may still be reeling from the loss of Bolivia, the people they do business with on a daily basis have picked their sides and stuck to it.
Nobody is going to invade for humanitarian reasons. That only happens for very weak nations that have no international support.
The government of Israel has amazing international support, first class weaponry, outclassing all of its neighbors militaries by orders of magnitude, and a ambiguous nuclear strike capability.
They could literally take every one of their oppressed civilians, drop them into a vat of acid, live streaming on the internet indefinitely, and nobody's going to invade.
Give countries something to fight over, some material resource, and there will be a war, water, energy, access to trade, but humanitarian philosophies are things few people are willing to die for.
Who said anything about humanitarian invasions? Why are you arguing against something you made up?
You said That's exactly what Hamas wants to see because that's what gets Israeli to lose international support and prompts Arab nations to invade.
I had assumed your Arab nation invasion was due to the death of Palestinian civilians. In your scenario why are the Arab nations invading?
Because from their perspective someone invaded their land and is now vulnerable to getting kicked off it. The only reason Israel exists is because it's supported by the US and Europe. Take away that support and Israel goes away.
The intended result for Hamas is for Israel to respond with actions that erode the very support that they depend on for security against invasion from surrounding arab nations that don't need any new reasons to attack Israel apart from the very existence of Israel in the first place.
Even if all external countries cut off military aid, Israel still is sitting on nuclear weapons. It's unlikely anyone would try to invade them, they don't want to get nuked.
But in this scenario over the course of 5 to 10 years, they would be less able to power project beyond their borders. That's true.
But let's not forget the The geographic neighbors, the military peers, are incredibly weak. So Israel becoming weak doesn't really make their jobs any easier
Hamas saw that Bibi is digging a giant hole for himself and said “I want in”
Have Hamas ever heard of endlings? It's the last of a species before it goes extinct.
You will run out of Palestinians to get bombed before that.
Whelp… ya gotta have a hobby.
At this point I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas leaders are actually undercover IDF
So, just to be clear, you're saying that the attack against Israel was actually a secret Jewish conspiracy to make Hamas look bad?
Stop equating israelis to Jews
More like a way to give Israel a casus belli to turn Gaza into a parking lot.
Not saying that’s what happened, but as far as theofascist stayed go I wouldn’t be surprised
Didn't Netanyahu prop up Hamas? That's all the info I need to know. That and one conversation with a Zionist, they are out of their mind and will straight up say that Palestinians don't deserve to live. That conversation was over a decade ago and it still gives me the creepy crawlys... it was like talking to a proud Nazi that firmly believed in his ideology.
Zionists fall under the category of most religious extremeist- stupid and dangerous. If we could drop all zionists in a hunger games scenario with all members of hamas, maybe throw the Catholic Church in there too.
Except nobody wins we just burn it down when they’re done killing each other like they’re going to do anyway.
Ever heard of a false flag attack?
Yes. Repeatedly and constantly. It's the rallying cry of the morons. Reality doesn't fit my worldview so it's reality that's wrong!
Israel ≠ Jews. Why are you repeating Hamas talking points?