“Climate-friendly” beef could land in a meat aisle near you. Don’t fall for it.
vox.com
Tyson Foods and the federal government refuse to show their math for a new sustainability label.
Tyson Foods and the federal government refuse to show their math for a new sustainability label.
Clean coal all over again?
Yes it is.
Peter Singer the "father of the animal rights movement" and really interesting philosopher, is I think a vegan but he argues for a disclosure number on eggs and chicken saying how many chickens there were per acre, because he argues that IF the chickens lived a happy life and were killed without distress, it's ethical to eat them, and at some really low density the evidence shows they are happy.
He also makes a claim that there are circumstances where it's ethical to eat meat like if the airplane serves you the wrong meal and if you reject it they will throw it away, because the animal is already dead and your decision doesn't incentivize more death, and demanding a new meal wastes food.
So, that's what living true values sounds like to me. Not picking a rule and sticking by it, but taking each decision and weighing it against your values.
He also claimed that kids with disabilities should be executed and infanticide should be legal up to the age of 30 days.
It sounds like he took a few plane trip, which my explain the second part of that statement.
Har har, I must admit it is rather difficult being on a seven hour flight next to a baby. Especially when you hit lots of turbulence.
That doesn't invalidate the above statement, it just illustrates that he also has abhorant opinions.
People like him make a point of having full consistent systems of thought. So at best his opinion happens to be correct which is not the same as being correct for the right reasons. Even a stopped clock etc.
Also fuck his ablism bullshit
A modest proposal.
What ever happened to galoshes anyway?
Yeah. This is how I live life. I don't create demand for meat. But I'm not vegetarian.
Personally, I find a lot of Peter Singer's arguments to be pretty questionable. As for some of the ones you've mentioned:
For one, killing humans, no matter how humanely the means, is seen by most to be an act of cruelty. I do not want to be killed in my sleep, so why is it okay to assume that animals would be okay with it? While he is a utilitarian and doesn't believe in rights, killing a sentient being seems to me to have much greater negative utility than the positive utility of the enjoyment of eating a chicken.
Also, farming animals for slaughter will always be destructive towards habitats and native species. Even if broiler chickens were kept alive for their natural lifespan of 3-7 years instead of 8 weeks to alleviate any kind of ethical issue with farming them, there is still an opportunity and environmental cost to farming chickens. We could use that land for to cultivate native species and wildlife, or for growing more nutritious and varied crops for people to eat, yet instead we continue to raze the amazon rainforest to make more land for raising farm animals and growing feed. De-densification of farms would only make the demand for farmland even greater than it already is.
Finally, the de-densification of farms would mean a significant increase in the costs of mear production. We'd be pricing lower income groups out of eating meat, while allowing middle- and upper-class folks to carry on consuming animal products as usual. We should not place the burdens of societal progress on the lower class.
But factory farming is completely separate from the scenario of throwing away the entree on the plane.
Peter Singer isn't vegan, he's a utilitarian. Also known as someone who uses "math" to ignore the hard problems in ethics.
Why won't that dreg just die already? The Utility Monster has been known since it's introduction and is an unsolvable problem for them. Also it doesn't actually have calculations, it has opinions with weights. I can argue two radically different courses of actions just by playing with the values I assign to the opinions. Plus humans really do not operate according to it, nothing evolution has done for us would wire us to think and act accordingly.
It's the kinda idea that most people have at least once and then throw it away when they see it can't do anything for them except make them and the people around them miserable. The Good Place had it right.
It makes sense to eat food that would otherwise be thrown away.
It does not make sense to say killing an animal is justified because they were happy or it was done humanely.
Doesn't sound like he has values to me. Sounds like he has exceptions. It's a good thing people with 'true values' don't have to prove them to you, lol.
I mean, regardless how you feel about them, those are values. Values in this case as made up of inclusions and exclusions, to say that his values are "exceptions" because they're different than your inclusions and exclusions is condescending and frankly wrong.
Sure man. Believe whatever you want.
Rich people's flesh is the most climate-friendly meat
Absolutely not! It takes a lot of pollution before someone becomes rich
The 1% and the corporations are more at fault for climate change than individuals. I'm not going to stop eating beef while rich assholes fly around in their private jets fucking up the world just so I have to pay for their greed.
Corporations respond to consumer demand. Don’t buy beef and there won’t be massive deforestation and insane methane emissions. Every dollar you spend on beef is supporting the 1% and the corporations you claim to hate.
I wasn't even alive in the 1970's when Exxon knew about climate change and lied about it to the entire world. Those rich fucks have been exploiting the climate for their personal gain for many decades before either of us were likely even born. I won't be giving up the few small liberties I have so that the rich can continue doing whatever they want.
And good luck getting every single consumer to agree with you. I suspect you're going to be waiting a long time for your plan to work.
Instead, we should be punishing the individuals responsible for 40% of the climate change problem. Not punishing the rest of the world who did not profit from exploiting the climate problem.
As horrible as those people are, it's not like they're just belching carbon dioxide into the atmosphere for fun. They're fulfilling demand. That 40% wouldn't disappear just by spreading ownership of the factories to more people. That's not to say that individual action is the only thing that works. Regulations need to be put in place to curb emissions, incentives should reward producers for investing & transitioning to more sustainable practices, and yes, monopolies need to get split up.
But the fact remains that some products are just bad for the environment. As as long as people continue buying those products they'll keep being produced. And when animal agriculture accounts for about as many emissions as the entire transportation industry, this seems like one of the easier steps to make.
The "my actions won't end this problem so I don't need to do anything" mentality never comes up in any other field (politeness, crimes, social change, voting). Yeah, choosing to never hold open doors for others wouldn't noticeably affect the global rate, but I doubt you'd use that logic to justify being rude.
To say Exxon was just, "fulfilling demands" makes them seem like good people. They KNEW they were causing climate change 50 years ago. They suppressed the information. Many Americans are dependent on their oil. It's all part of the design of our roads, infrastructure, jobs, etc. These corporations only care about their revenue streams, not the streams of water and how clean they are. Hoping the majority of consumers band together to do the right thing simply will not work. The corporations and the executives need to be held accountable or we will continue to flounder on climate change.
Unfortunately it goes back further than that. We knew anthropogenic climate change was a thing in the late 1800s, and the oil companies started doing the research in the early 1900s. They knew by 1910 that they were flirting with disaster. Which just allows everyone to say, "nope, not changing anything personally, because those decisions were made before I was born."
I agree that it's unfair that we have to modify our consumption when it makes so little impact. Hopefully meat in vats is actually better for the environment, but I'm not counting on it for the first generation. It is finally being served in a couple restaurants so that's a first step
It has nothing to do with fairness. Modifying consumption at an individual level doesn't help and isn't even a step to solving the problem. It's literally propaganda to shift blame and make sure nothing is ever done to address the issue.
If you're relying on individuals you may as well just give up. There needs to be systemic change forced by legislation.
Modifying consumption at the individual level unintentionally creates boycotts that the local consumer isn't even aware they are involved in. This compounds when the local consumer happens to be an upper manager, because they will carry their biases against corporations, such as Nestlé, into the corporate world, and continue their own boycott of services that are undesirable.
Again, totally unfair to the individual since we carry so little responsibility, but we also carry the ability to crush corporations that refuse to follow the people's will. Look a bit deeper into why Enron, or Sears-Roebuck collapsed. You'll find that your real power is burying corporations that have no value.
Modifying individual consumption is literally the only viable solution. It just cannot be voluntary.
That was sort of my point. I guess it would be better stated as putting the decision making at the individual level doesn't help, or something like that.
Then it isn't propaganda meant to shift blame.
Blaming "the top x%" of corporations is effective propaganda that does shift blame.
People are going to fight carbon taxation, even with a dividend, and if they think "just go after the rich" will help, we'll never get it.
To say they're filling demand is a morally neutral, and objectively correct, standpoint.
This is the actual problem to solve, and why you should support carbon tax-and-dividend.
I'm not defending fossil-fueled energy production. When the product is energy it's inexcusable to produce it in such a grossly irresponsible manner.
But if "coal energy" specifically was the product, and consumers overwhelmingly directly choose it rather than available renewable energy, then yeah I'd cut companies a bit more slack. When the harm isn't in method but the product, and people are choosing that product instead of alternatives, then much of the blame rests on them.
No, it's all because America 'needs' to be competitive with the world on a military level. This means that whatever will make us progress the fastest is the route we're going to take.
Operating without oil will severely hinder US military progression, which is why we don't do it. It's the same reason why no nation does it that has a stake in world affairs. Slowing down to save the environment gives your enemies an advantage.
Thats because we all have been raised to be polite and hold doors open. We have also been raised to consume anything and everything to satisfy our greed because it is our right as rulers of earth. It is the standard and noone criticizes you for it, so why not keep that privilege? It is apparently very hard and takes a long time to get rid of this mentality in the whole population, especially since the most influential ones fight for keeping it.
Do you really only do good things when you've been conditioned to do so? You don't ever try to grow past what society tells you? I'm not asking you to solve everything. I'm asking you not to be a part of the problem. Defending your behavior by pointing to that of others has not been a historically sound position.
Totally agree. I wasnt trying to defend that attitude, just setting some context.
Ah, sorry. I sometimes forget to check for name continuity.
The reason why we will fail when it comes to the climate: we can’t even agree on who to blame and who to punish and how to change the situation to solve the problem.
We are f’d!
There is no need to agree on who to blame. We all need to fight together and do our best.
Trying to shift blame away from ourselves is the actual problem thats keeping us from making change.
One thing that has always bothered me about veganism is how freaken privileged it is. Cooking without animal products is more work and just has less reward. It is a privilege of the rich or at the least a full-time homemaker. I am upper middleclass now but I have been poor. Animal products are a hit of happiness with low effort.
Noone is saying we shouldnt punish corporations. We should, but how does that give us a free pass to keep exploiting the environment? How can you demand change from others when you decline changing yourself from the start?
The goal is to reduce emissions. If you want to reduce emissions significantly, you must massively reduce or eliminate meat consumption.
And so any solution, no matter where it comes from, will result in meat being either banned or becoming absurdly expensive. So why not get ahead of that and learn to live without meat?
Yet you drive a car and continue to eat meat.
It's anyone's fault but yours.
I don't have a car, but yes I'm a little bit at fault. I never said I wasn't.
But only an idiot would think I'm just as bad as people who made millions of dollars making the climate problem substantially worse. I didn't get rich by fucking our planet. I'm just trying to get by unlike the executives exacerbating climate change so they can make a couple million more.
Yeah, I definitely don't think you're just as bad.
The powers that be have a vested interest in making sure we're depending on making them richer.
have you tried that?
Yup! That’s why western demand for meat is decreasing
but it doesn't seem to be working to fight deforestation and methane emissions
Because Chinese demand for meat offsets our progress. So we should give up trying? Great logic
whatever the excuse, it's not working.
“China isn’t doing their part, why should we?” Ok, GOP talking head.
That’s the excuse every conservative in the USA gives for ignoring the climate crisis. The fact is that our efforts ARE working in Western countries. That doesn’t mean we should stop.
your arguing against a straw man.
I'm saying your tactic isn't working. it's not a personal attack. it's a useful insight.
Sorry, I just realized you were a troll. Should’ve checked your comment history sooner. Bye dude
calling me a name doesn't change whether what I said is true
if you tactic is ineffective, you should try a different tactic.
I mean, we can both eat less meat and also demand change from the rich, they aren't mutually exclusive. "Because they do it too" isn't a great excuse
I never said they were mutually exclusive. The problem is that the majority of people have to make sacrifices because some rich assholes caused the lion's share of the problem. The funny thing about being a rich asshole is that they'll get away scot-free while the rest of us have to pay for their greed.
Hey not all of us! I plan to get a job working in whatever underground cyberpunk hell scape is our future. It's you surface people who are screwed.
Lololololol, painting the sales of a product (eg gasoline) as personal usage and then aggregating it as a metric is just about one of the most disingenuous use of statistics I regularly see spouted.
So tired of any personal responsibilities. Fuck those oil producers heating my home polluting the planet!
Wow, this is so sad. So as long as there are people doing worse shit than you thats an excuse to keep going?
'I wont stop raping as long as there are murderers out there'.
I never said that. Sorry about your room temperature IQ.
So what are you trying to say then? A plain read of your comment is exactly that.
Funny you mention this because the article specifically calls out people who think air travel is a more meaningful contributor to climate change than their own diet preferences.
Also your entire take is based on the idea that these 1% corporations just like, burn fuel for funsies, instead of selling products to people which are then consumed.
This take, for instance, is pants-on-head stupid:
Might wanna rethink your entire worldview there bud.
America's richest 10% are responsible for 40% of climate change. You're butthurt that I'm using living modestly while rich assholes profit from making the climate problem exponentially worse. I would say don't bootlick for the rich, but I'm not sure you're intelligent enough to change your worldview "bud".
You're sharing the same article I'm quoting from, which is making a stupid argument.
If you want to fight climate change, you must understand that aggregate demand is the driver of climate change. Companies don't get rich by fucking up the planet. Companies get rich by selling people shit. The shit they sell is fucking up the planet. Cut the demand and you lessen the fuckening.
The way forward is by tackling aggregate demand, ideally through carbon taxes and investment/subsidies in green technologies.
I am a literal climate lobbyist, and this is the angle actual people involved in fighting climate change work from.
I'm a climate scientist and a sociologist. If you think that we can get everyone on the same page about giving up their personal liberties and small pleasures (like eating meat) so the rich can continue to exploit the problem further for their own profit, we've already lost.
The only path forward is to jail the corporate executives and rich assholes causing the lion's share of the issue, but instead we get bootlickers arguing for an impossible goal of herding a bunch of cats to stop doing something they love to make up for problems mostly caused by the richest 10%.
I literally say the opposite of this
In addition to being completely unhinged, this does not address demand at all and someone else will simply start selling those fuels and products/services
You're either lying or terrible at your job.
I can see you're having trouble understanding basic logic. Let me explain it to you this way:
If I started a business throwing used motor oil into the ocean, I could charge people next to nothing to take their oil. I would make huge profits by destroying our planet. Your strategy would be to convince all the poor people in America not to use the cheapest option to dispose of their oil. Many Americans don't have a choice between using an expensive "good for the Earth" option and my business that throws it into ocean for cheap.
You lack an understanding of the people you're trying to coordinate. Many Americans lack the time and the money to correctly choose the most environmentally friendly option. You will never get everyone on the same page. The only path forward is to punish the rich assholes actually causing the lion's share of the problem.
This is an idiotic counter-factual.
The reality is, fossil fuels companies are constantly listed as "top contributors" because they fucking sell fossil fuels.
Until we remove the present need for fossil fuels by disincentivizing them in favor of green technology, then we will continue on this path. Fossil fuels aren't burnt for fun. They are used to power homes, transportation, etc. That's what we need to tackle.
I understand it is attractive to have a "villain" to point at. It makes things much easier for you and absolves you of your role. However, this is both non-productive and, ultimately, objectively incorrect.
You're correct that voluntary abstinence is not enough to be meaningfully impactful, that's why we lobby for government subsidies and, ideally, carbon taxation.
I know you, personally, are a lost cause - you'll fight anything that will "disadvantage" you. I'm writing this because some lurker will see it and that'll be one more vote. One vote at a time is how we win.
I see you were unable to refute any of my points. Instead you continue to bootlick for the rich just like every other lobbyist. Fuck off plutocrat parasite.
I literally refuted all of your points.
If anyone is interested in meaningfully fighting climate change, I highly recommend you get involved.
It's free, volunteer work, doesn't take a lot of your time, and you'll speak face to face with representatives. You can be involved on any level you'd like
https://citizensclimatelobby.org/donate-earth-lobbyists/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paid&utm_campaign=G_S_Utah-NB&gclid=CjwKCAjwr_CnBhA0EiwAci5siiPUuUAGRZ5ipBO_D0ZfrGvuXC3hvpCRJEt4XUxmUwVJvbM-Xym-QBoCm84QAvD_BwE
Bet you $10 they are going to jack those prices up so fucking high because marketing it as “sustainable” adds value or whatever.
Like they do with coffee or tried to do with clothing. Yeah buddy I am going to spend 110 dollars on your fucking hemp sweater that looks like I am off to go get high off gas in a bag later today. I want to spend my all too few dollars on that.
I bet WWF cant wait to put its label on the packaging.
They want you to think killing tuna is good for the environment
"This product helps protect coastlines and waterways."
How is this legal?
What's it say?
This product contributes to the PROTECTION OF COASTS AND WATERS by:
Use of feed from sustainable production
Refrain from preventive treatment with antibiotics
More space per animal
Non-genetically modified feed
Avoidance of synthetic dyes in feed
How does that say "killing tuna is good for the environment"?
Isn't it kinda obvious it's a comparison to other tuna? Best for the environment would be to kill yourself and not eat anything.
That's quite a wild difference from claiming killing tuna saves the environment.
This is saying they only use farmed tuna from sustainable sources, instead of just fishing them from the wild and reducing native populations, as well as not using drugs, GMOs, or synthetic dyes with those farmed fish.
Didn't feeding them seaweed drastically reduce their methane burps?
Not quite so simple:
https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/592243-hold-off-for-now-on-feeding-seaweed-to-cows-to-reduce-methane/amp/
Thanks for the heads up.
I'm still frustrated at the whole cage-free eggs/free range chickens and how it's super confusing.
The problem is that free range and grass fed methods take up more space and and produce more greenhouses gasses, even if they are more ethical.
Is it more expensive? They raise a ton of sheep around here, maybe I'll start buying local lamb. Mmmmm....
Hate to break it to you but the climate impact stats on lamb are just as bad as beef. I guess it’s good that it’s local but don’t think that just because it’s not beef it’s a-okay.
I like beef, I like the climate unfriendly kind, I'm gonna go nuts for this new climate friendly kind I bet