CNN bans guest for telling Muslim journalist 'I hope your beeper doesn't go off'

MicroWave@lemmy.world to News@lemmy.world – 871 points – CNN bans guest for telling Muslim journalist 'I hope your beeper doesn't go off'
nbcnews.com

Ryan Girdusky clashed with British-American journalist Mehdi Hasan on Monday night.

CNN has banned a conservative commentator from appearing on the network again after he told a Muslim journalist "I hope your beeper doesn't go off," an apparent reference to the spate of exploding pagers in Lebanon that killed members of the Hezbollah militant group last month. 

Ryan Girdusky made the comment during a heated debate with Mehdi Hasan, a prominent British-American broadcaster and an outspoken critic of Israel's war in Gaza, on "CNN Newsnight" with host Abby Phillip. 

The guests were discussing the racist jokes made by comedian Tony Hinchcliffe, which overshadowed former President Donald Trump's rally at New York's Madison Square Garden on Sunday and continue to make headlines two days later.

As the debate turned fractious, Girdusky and Hasan sparred over whether the latter had been labeled an anti-Semite. "I'm a supporter of the Palestinians, I'm used to it," Hasan said.

Girdusky replied: "Well I hope your beeper doesn't go off."

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I'm still flabbergasted that there hasn't been more of an international outrage concerning those pagers.

The use of mines as an indiscriminate weapon are already frowned upon,

And here they are using them, scattered throughout a civilian population with absolutely no regard to who could be standing next to their target.

Un-fucking believable.

They bombed dozens of hospitals and orphanages across two countries and also started a starvation siege since that time.

There is no outrage left

There is no outrage left

This really hit me. As in maybe it explains some things since the internet was created. It’s indeed so hard to keep up.

It’s indeed so hard to keep up.

I know it's different, but that reminds me of the Gish gallop.

"The Gish gallop is a rhetorical technique in which a person in a debate attempts to overwhelm an opponent by presenting an excessive number of arguments, with no regard for their accuracy or strength, with a rapidity that makes it impossible for the opponent to address them in the time available."

Oh no... Israel is doing the Gish gallop but for human rights atrocities... this explains it perfectly.

There hasn't been outrage because blowing up people with pagers is actually the most targeted thing Israel has done in the past year. Certainly a step up from killing hundreds of refugees to maybe take out one hamas guy.

Accused hamas guy

Which pager strike in particular do you disagree with? AFAIK the targets were pretty open about their relations to Hamas and Iranian funded extranational militants.

IMO we should have just stopped giving Israel shells and rockets a long time ago and instead given them a very small amount of spec ops equipment like the pagers.

Yes. The 9 year old girl was TOTALLY a Hezbollah militant.

Get real. Most of the people killed were civilian government workers and members of their families.

It would be like giving congress exploding pens. Yes, many of the members are deplorable. But handing them mini explosives is an act of terrorism.

Ah thats fair, I was unaware of the attacks on Tuesday and Wednesday September 12 and 13th.

Dozens of mourners gathered Wednesday in the Lebanese village of Nabi Sheet to pay respect to Fatima Abdullah

I had only heard about the earlier strikes.

I'm not commenting on the pager attack when I refer to "accused hamas guy" but I'll leave it as an exercise to you to figure out why and how the pager strike might have led (and did lead) to civilian casualties.

Yes more precise than "was in a WhatsApp group with the cousin of a suspected Hamas member so the AI told us to bomb him at home with his children" but if that's the bar....

You replied to a comment about blowing up a hamas guy with pager by saying the hamas guy is only an accused hamas guy, but you were not referring to the blowing up of a hamas guy with a pager?

They killed children in that pager attack. Which I guess is part for the course, so ya, nevermind, you might be right.

There has been minimal pushback to the Israeli apartheid regime and decades long genocide in Palestine. You think a few more deaths are going to inspire real international action?

It was a terrorist attack. We must condemn all terrorist attacks

What's even crazier for me to wrap my head around is those pagers were a safer method for civilians than what they've been doing. They're indiscriminately leveling city blocks killing thousands of innocents.

Not mines, IEDs. It was an indiscriminate terrorist attack on a civilian population using improvised explosive devices.

Indiscriminate it was not. It was hyper targeted at everyone in the command chain that got a beeper. It's not as if they sold them through normal stores to the general population.

They literally set off bombs in grocery stores and doctors offices. They killed a kid.

Right, because pagers blowing up in public is not indiscriminate.

It was indiscriminate and it was mass terrorism.

As of 22 September 2024, the death toll from the attacks was 42, including at least 12 civilian deaths. More than 3,500 people were injured.

At least 12 people were killed in the first wave of attacks, including civilians such as two health workers, a 9-year-old girl and an 11-year-old boy. The adult son of Ali Ammar, a Hezbollah member of Parliament was killed; Prime Minister Najib Mikati visited southern Beirut to pay his respects. More than 2,750 people were wounded. In the second wave on 18 September, at least 30 people were killed and 750 others were injured. One eye doctor at Mount Lebanon University Hospital reported that a number of those injured showed signs of something being blown up directly in their face, with some losing one or both eyes, while others had shrapnel in their brains. The Lebanese health ministry reported that 300 people had lost both eyes and 500 people had lost one eye as a result of the pager attacks. Other doctors saw severe hand, waist and facial injuries, reporting patients with fingers torn, hands amputated, eyes popped out of the socket and facial lacerations.

Health Minister Firass Abiad said the vast majority of those being treated in emergency rooms were in civilian clothing and their Hezbollah affiliation was unclear. He added the casualties included elderly people as well as young children. According to the Health Ministry, healthcare workers were also injured and it advised all healthcare workers to discard their pagers. On 26 September, Abdallah Bou Habib, Lebanon's Foreign Minister, confirmed that most of those carrying pagers were not fighters, rather civilians like administrators. Qassim Qassir, a Lebanese expert on Hezbollah, said the attacks mostly struck civilian workers, leaving its military wing largely unaffected. An unnamed source said 1,500 Hezbollah fighters were taken out of action due to injuries, with many blinded or having lost their hands.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions

A supply chain of a terrorist organisations was infiltrated and they where sold devices fitted with explosives and then distributed it within their organisation.

Everyone with a pager (and later also other devices) fell within the Hezbollah hierachy. The fact Hezbollah has infiltrated every level of society and has Docters and many others in their ranks does not make them invalid targets.

Besides, judging from the videos, we saw people standing next to whoever had the pager where mostly fine. The children dieing is horrible.

So calling it indiscriminate is more than a stretch. And the collateral damage is wayyyyy lower than with the rest of how Israël behaves.

Israel has never stopped ethnic cleansing of native populations

Hezbollah exists out of resistance to Occupation and Invasion by Israel

“International humanitarian law prohibits indiscriminate attacks – meaning attacks that fail to distinguish between civilians and military targets. It also prohibits the use of the type of booby-traps that appear to have been used in these attacks.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/09/lebanon-establish-international-investigation-into-deadly-attacks-using-exploding-portable-devices/

“Such attacks could constitute war crimes of murder, attacking civilians, and launching indiscriminate attacks, in addition to violating the right to life,” the experts said.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/09/exploding-pagers-and-radios-terrifying-violation-international-law-say-un

Just because Israel routinely violates international humanitarian law and targets civilians doesn't make this any less of a violation of international humanitarian law and a war crime

The settler colonial project of Israel is filled with rabid fascists, I agree whole heartedly. The current government of Israel is peak of that performance.

But trying to paint this as a boobytrap, and targeting civilians. I don't think anyone buys that for a minute.

And this was hardly indiscriminate. It was pagers that where handed directly to Hezbollah and distributed by Hezbollah through their network. It's not as if these where sold by shops in Lebanon to normal Lebanese.

And collateral sucks, but this still had less than the bomb that was dropped on the appartment complex with the command bunker under it filled with Hezbollah staff.

But trying to paint this as a boobytrap, and targeting civilians. I don't think anyone buys that for a minute

Well, human rights organizations and international law disagree, and I agree with them. Both those articles discuss that in detail, including how it was a booby trap and indiscriminate.

Nor is Hezbollah solely an armed resistance militant group. They are also a prominent political group and maintain a multitude of social services like hospitals, those people are civilians not militants. This did not solely target militants, in fact is mostly didn't.

That's fair!

I think International law does not disagree, it might be something that can be litigated. The pagers where specifically for hezbollah members, not civilians. I'll expect "boobytraps and civilians" to be a losing argument, time will tell.

And, a terrorist organisation that takes over a region, intertwines itself with civil society to get legitimacy while at the same time sabotaging the countries government with threats of terror.. is still a terrorist organisation. And anyone working for them a terrorist. I.e. Someone doing the bookkeeping for a terrorist group is still a terrorist.

Hezbollah started in direct resistance to Israeli occupation of Lebanon, I wonder what would have happened if they had not continued Post occupation or at least not shot at Israel and allowed for the Lebanese government to try and work with Israël on a peaceful border and other things that stood between the countries and their peoples.

I don't really see the use of the labeling of terrorist here, it's reductive to a detriment. I could just as easily call Israel a terrorist state, and by looking at cases of actual acts of terror, it's clear that Israel does magnitudes more. But while acknowledging acts of terrorism is important, giving the label of terrorist to an entire group is not really useful.

It's much more useful to look at the aims and actions, in which we see that Israel is a Settler Colonialist Ethnostate with actions of Ethnic Cleansing, Occupation, and Apartheid. We see that the aims of resistance groups are anti-colonialist, with actions of ending Occupation. We see that one is a reaction to the other, Israel's perpetual violence towards native peoples is the underlying cause of these conflicts. Solutions to ending the violence of anti-colonialism can only come from ending the underlying violence of the colonialism.

Both the Occupier and the Occupied can and do use acts of terrorism to further their aims, but the aims are diametrically opposed. The aim of the occupier is to continue the occupation, that requires violence to maintain. The aim of the occupied is to end the occupation, by any means possible.

We see that permanent occupation develops into an Apartheid, as the settlers / occupiers have rights upheld by the State and Military, while the natives / occupied have no rights and subjected to violence from both the Settlers and Military. The State, who holds the monopoly on power, uses terrorism to suppress resistance to the occupation in order to maintain it. The occupied, having no power, uses terrorism as a means to resist the occupation.

Israel has no interest in peace, it has interest in land grabbing, which is in complete opposition to peace. This is fundamental to Zionism. Which is why an end to Zionism and a regime change, where a Secular Bi-National One-State that gives equal rights to Palestinians and Israelis is the only way for the conflict to really end. Not only with Palestinian resistance, but with all resistance groups that were created by Israeli occupation.

In the link to my comment about the history of the Israel - Palestine conflict, in the One or Two State Solution, I have links where historians Avi Schlaim and Ilan Pappe discuss the realities of the current state of Israel and the Occupied Territories, and why they have to come to see a One-State Solution as the only genuine permanent solution to the conflict. I highly recommend it and their works.

Not improvised, and not on the civilian population, but you're correct about the rest lol

Not on the civilian population, other than pagers blowing up in public?

You can see footage of some Hezbobros blowing up in the middle of a supermarket, with the people standing around them being unharmed. They were intended to maim the user of the device, the explosives were too small to cause much more. Sure, there are a handful of civilians hurt or even killed but this is was a lot 'cleaner' than throwing bombs from planes or Hezbollah's own preferred method of firing rockets over the border.

As per Wikipedia, Hezbollah has to kill one civilian for every 2 soldiers. With the pager attacks, Israel hit 2750 Hezbobros and 'only' killed 2 kids.

They were intended to maim

I'll take warfare tactics you don't expect from first world nations for $1000, Alex.

Do you think it'd be more humane if they used larger explosives?

I think being designed to maim is but one of multiple problems with this approach, which would overall not be served by more explosives.

  • It looks like a pager. Yes, supply chain attack blah blah only purchased by Hezbollah folks. But if it gets stolen or found by a civilian, there is nothing about it to suggest it could be lethal or that they should leave it alone. It isn't just not marked as lethal, it's explicitly disguised as something mundane.

  • Hezbollah folks could be sitting next to an innocent civilian in any number of contexts.

  • Related to but distinct from my first point, there is an endless list of possible ways that a pager belonging to a hezbollah operative could wind up in the hands of an innocent, or in a position to harm an innocent instead of the target, and none of them are things that could be controlled or monitored for the fleet of explosive pagers. Once sold, there was literally no way to have any idea who would actually be harmed when the triggering page was sent.

Just call it terrorism perpetrated by a state actor, and we have no argument.

All of your problems are just one and the same: statistical probability of civilian casualties. And the nice thing with discussing the ethics of the choice to do it here is that we have the exact results. Around 2750 Hezbros hit with around 10 civilian deaths.

When they destroyed ISIS in Mosul 8 years ago, they turned that dial up all the way to a 1-on-1 ratio. 10.000 innocents for 10.000 Isibro's.

When they destroyed them in Raqqa, they went even higher, to around 1.5.

And if it makes you happy to call it 'terrorism' when you see civilian casualties, go ahead.

Their "success" was entirely down to luck, and all my problems were to illustrate the uncertainty built into every second that elapsed from the time they sold the pagers until the time they were detonated.

I think you overestimate the number of Lebanese that would steal pagers from Hezbollah.

As I said, the results just prove they made a good call (no pun intended) and with the large sample size luck just can't be a factor

All of your problems are just one and the same: statistical probability of civilian casualties.

"All of your problems boil down to the fact it's indiscriminate. Get over it. The problems end when you do."

indiscriminate terrorist attack on a civilian population

You're describing what the Palestinians did to Israel on 10/7, and have continued doing this entire time, when they launch rockets at Israeli population centers.

population centers

Why does one side have population centers and the other human shields? It's wrong regardless.

One side at least wants to pretend to have military targets?

You know that is actually insightful to the PTSD that many IDF soldiers are experiencing.

That's also bad. Both of the sides are bad, and the Palestinian civilians are caught in the crossfire.

I didn't realize that HAMAS was as large an organization as the Israeli government and armed forces.

We're also talking about a completely different country from Palestine that had nothing to do with any part of any of these conflicts, and even then, an indiscriminate terrorist attack on Palestinian civilians wouldn't be justified by HAMAS's terrorism. That's like saying that the US bombings on Iraqi civilians are justified by Al Qaeda's attack on the WTC on 9/11.

Hezbollah has been firing rockets into Israel for a year now. It's hard to claim they have nothing to do with any part of these conflicts

And yet, that still doesn't justify killing civilians randomly.

And Israel has been running a military campaign to exterminate Palestine since the 1950s. It's hard to claim their hands are clean in any of these conflicts.

I still remember when they were offering Israeli citizenship with the purchase of former Palestinian homes to American Jews in the 2000s.

Claiming they were justified in attacking israel is very different from claiming they have nothing to do with the conflict though. If you feel that firing rockets at israeli civilians is fine and good, say that instead of pretending hezbollah was uninvolved

Hezbollah only exists because of Occupations and invasions by Israel

::: spoiler 1982

The 1982 Lebanon war began on 6 June 1982, when Israel invaded again for the purpose of attacking the Palestine Liberation Organization. The Israeli army laid siege to Beirut. During the conflict, according to Lebanese sources, between 15,000 and 20,000 people were killed, mostly civilians.

On 16 February 1985, Shia Sheik Ibrahim al-Amin declared a manifesto in Lebanon, announcing a resistance movement called Hezbollah, whose goals included combating the Israeli occupation. During the South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000) the Hezbollah militia waged a guerrilla campaign against Israeli forces occupying Southern Lebanon and their South Lebanon Army proxies.

:::

::: spoiler Israeli Withdrawal

Throughout the painstaking process of confirming the Israeli withdrawal, Hizballah was at pains to declare its commitment to recovering the last millimeter of Lebanese territory, but it also acknowledged that it would not act hastily to reinitiate violence. In sum, Hizballah's behavior and deference to state authority have worked to its political advantage. It reaped recognition in an unprecedented meeting between Nasrallah and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan, who praised Hizballah's restraint and its promise of cooperation. The meeting with Annan offers a remarkable contrast with Hizballah's earlier days, when it was hostile to the UN and especially to the UN force in the south.

Without an agreement between Syria and Israel, there will be little pressure on Hizballah to disarm. Syria's calculated strategy is to allow Hizballah to serve as a constant reminder of the consequences of continuing to occupy the Golan Heights.This is a role that Hizballah is happy to play, given its enmity toward Israel. At the same time, it remains profoundly aware of the political costs of bringing destruction down on the heads of its supporters, and this further reduces the prospect that Hizballah will initiate attacks on Israel

:::

::: spoiler 2006

The doctrine is named after the Dahiya suburb of Beirut, where the Lebanese paramilitary group Hezbollah has its headquarters, which the Israeli military leveled during its assault on Lebanon in the summer of 2006 that killed nearly 1,000 civilians, about a third of them children, and caused enormous damage to the country’s civilian infrastructure, including power plants, sewage treatment plants, bridges, and port facilities.

It was formulated by then-General Gadi Eisenkot when he was Chief of Northern Command. As he explained in 2008 referring to a future war on Lebanon: "What happened in the Dahiya quarter of Beirut in 2006 will happen in every village from which Israel is fired on… We will apply disproportionate force on it (village) and cause great damage and destruction there. From our standpoint, these are not civilian villages, they are military bases… This is not a recommendation. This is a plan. And it has been approved.” Eisenkot went on to become chief of the general staff of the Israeli military before retiring in 2019.

While it became official Israeli military doctrine after Israel’s 2006 attack on Lebanon, Israel’s military has used disproportionate force and targeted Palestinian, Lebanese, and other civilians since Israel was established in 1948 based on the ethnic cleansing of indigenous Palestinians, including dozens of massacres to force them to flee for their lives.

:::

::: spoiler 2007 - Present

Until recently, the border had been relatively quiet. Occasional rockets or drones crossed from Lebanon into Israel without leading to serious escalation, while Israel violated Lebanese airspace more than 22,000 times from 2007 to 2022.

While the withdrawal was certified by the United Nations, Lebanon disputed it, arguing that the Shebaa Farms was part of its territory, and not part of the Syrian Golan Heights, which Israel continues to occupy.

So there are two separate issues here that lead to the current dispute: the first is that Israel occupies the Golan Heights and treats it as its own territory in violation of international law, and the second is that there was already a pre-existing disagreement between Syria and Lebanon over the border, prior to the Israeli occupation.

:::

It was created and grew popular to make Israel withdraw, but today it mainly exists to make sure Iran's interests in Lebanon are 'defended'.

No, it's still due to resistance against Israeli Occupations and defense against Israeli Invasion, which they did again, after bombing the Capital along with many other cities, killing thousands of civilians.

Yeah, after Hezbollah attacked them they're back. Good thing the Lebanese have Hezbollah to defend them from this cycle

They were firing rockets into the Shebaa farms, which Israel acknowledged is not part of Israel. Israel started doing airstrikes into Lebanon and then Hizbullah retaliated.

This is a genocide on an incarcerated population, within an Apartheid State, founded on Ethnic Cleansing

::: spoiler Ethnic Cleansing is fundamental to Zionism

Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.

The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.

An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.

:::

::: spoiler Settlements and Occupation

Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.

This type of settlement, where the native population gets 'Transferred' to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.

The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:

Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:

While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements

The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.

The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.

:::

::: spoiler Apartheid Evidence

Amnesty Report

Human Rights Watch Report

B'TSelem Report with quick Explainer

:::

::: spoiler Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing

:::

::: spoiler Peace Process and Solution

Both Hamas and Fatah have agreed to a Two-State solution based on the 1967 borders for decades. Oslo and Camp David were used by Israel to continue settlements in the West Bank and maintain an Apartheid, while preventing any actual Two-State solution

How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

:::

::: spoiler Historian Works on the History

:::

Say what you want about Americans, we have yet to respond to a terror attack with fucking genocide.

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The 10/07 was a fucking year ago and the israeli killed 40x the amount of people that died that day. How long will you milk that shit? 5 years? 10 years?

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well we know who could be standing next to their target- another brown person in a majority muslim country. IE, nobody western supremacist racist pigs give a fuck about which is why there was no punishment and there will be no punishment against israel for any single thing they do. if it were gonna happen it would have by now. it's not as tho once they get to that 300,000th dead palestinian suddenly the "rules based order" is gonna enact some of those "consequences for breaking the rules" on israel. not gonna happen. someone needs to dylan crooks netanyahu.

The conflict is not one based on racism, it's literally based on religion and at least 3 groups of people in a small area using their religion to justify the murder of others. Full stop. Jews are not white. Jews who were expelled from Israel and became Europeanized are essentially genetically identical to the Jews that remained. Skin color is not race, but making this conflict about race makes that individual racist

Half of the people those pagers killed were children and health workers.

Wait.. what?

I'm I reading that right?

12 people killed. 6 of which were 2 children and 4 healthcare workers.

But 2,800 wounded? So all of that wasn't even about neutralizing targets, but maiming?

How many were set off? I have a hard time believing a 12killed : 2800wounded ratio...

EDIT: Google says bout 5000 pagers

CNN: reports 37killked but 3,000 wounded.

The only people who had those pagers were Hezbollah members. Hezbollah has been lobbing missiles into Israel, killing civilians including children and forcing an evacuation. They picked a fight, why should there be an expectation that Israel just sits back and takes it? Don't get me wrong about Gaza, they have gone way too far there. But Hezbollah seems at least somewhat justified.

The only people who had those pagers were Hezbollah members.

Did they have camera's in them to know that? and also know about people in the surrounding area?

Hezbollah has been lobbing missiles into Israel, killing civilians including children and forcing an evacuation.

And you think this is the appropriate response to that?

I get the Israeli people are absolutely tired of this shit. But what makes them think that kind of response isn't going to do anything other than bolster the other sides hatred/resolve?

As they indiscriminately kill more, they are recruiting more to the cause. When someone loses their kids/brother/father/home/etc. That just makes them having nothing more to lose, and join the war. People don't want to fight. People just want to live their lives.

Israel is the one with all the weapons/tech/money in this. If the Israeli people are tired of this shit, they need to look at a leader who's not going to perform actions that just increases Hezbollah's and Hamas's numbers.

Pretty clear from the footage and lack of civilian casualties that the collateral risk was very low though

Yeah no, the exploding pagers and radios, which were from an intercepted supply specifically for Hezbollah, was far more targeted than anyone could reasonably ask for.

Like yes, Israel's overall actions in Gaza and Lebanon have been horribly ruthless and against civilian well-being. And there is the broader context of Palestine. But this is what you're outraged by?

If everything between bombing Hezbollah and targeted attacks like the pagers/radio are off the table, like what would you actually do if a non-governmental military was indiscriminately firing hundreds of rockets into your cities for an entire year? Seriously, how would you actually respond if you were in the leadership position?

Idk dude, generally things like booby traps are considered illegal in part because they're not selective. Like if someone breaks in and you kill them with a gun it's self defense, but if it's a booby trap then we view it differently. Disguising bombs as typical civilian items seems pretty messed up.

Did you forget that every "responsible" western power(Edit: Ottawa treaty) the US and Ukraine (who was a signatory of the Ottawa treaty) also has an arsenal of anti-personnel and anti-vehicle mines which are specifically meant to be hidden and disguised? Quite literally booby traps with long-lasting risks for civilian lives. Many children have lost their lives due to mines, yet they are still deemed acceptable in war.

Anything that risks civilian lives is pretty messed up. But even compared to the mines being used in Ukraine, the pagers/radios were far more targeted and posed less risk to civilians.

Did you forget that every "responsible" western power also has an arsenal of anti-personnel and anti-vehicle mines which are specifically meant to be hidden and disguised?

This is not true.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa_Treaty

Oh snap, that's awesome! I wasn't aware of this. I assumed NATO would be consistent with the US on mines. Thank you for sharing this.

I'll modify my argument to "Even the US and Ukraine use mines"

It's interesting though, according to my research the distinction between mines and weapons lie in how it's activated. For example, the C19 ex-Claymore is now remote detonation only to comply with the Ottawa treaty because it can only be activated remotely and cannot be used with an indiscriminate activator like a tripwire. Therefore it is a weapon. With this les, the pagers/radios are more akin to weapons rather than mines.

So booby traps are allowed, as long as someone is there to decide when to press the button, which the Israelies clearly did.

The use of mines as an indiscriminate weapon are already frowned upon,

Did you forget that every "responsible" western power also has an arsenal of anti-personnel and anti-vehicle mines which are specifically meant to be hidden and disguised?

No, I didn't forget. Someone even mentioned them in this same comment chain.

Okay, so let's go with your position that attacking soldiers with explosive weapons in civilian areas are not justifiable.

Based on your beliefs, what do you see as a justifiable response to Hezbollah's year long barrage of rockets and missiles into Israeli cities. Keep in mind Hezbollah by and large conducts these strikes directly embedded in or right beside civilian sites. And they also store weapons in civilian sites.

The goal now is not to say which is worse, there's plenty of blame to go around. The goal is to understand how you think about conflict and the principles you believe in that shape your views.

let's go with your position

This was never a debate, I was just saying that I feel like disguising bombs as everyday, civilian objects is bad. The comment where I even posted that I literally began with "idk dude" to make it clear I wasn't trying to engage in debate about this topic. The only reason I even replied again was because land mines were mentioned in the context of "did you forget" when literally above in this comment chain land mines were already mentioned.

No dude, it’s pretty reasonable for me to ask that they don’t kill children with IEDs.

Serious question, would you condone assassinating Putin with an IED even if several children were killed? Would it be better if they used a missile strike with 5x the civilian casualties because at least it isn't an IED? Would it be better to do nothing and allow an opposing military force to continue bombarding your cities and your children with rockets and missiles?

I abhore the mass bombings and utter destruction Israel has wrought over the last year. It is beyond the pale. I would genuinely have prefered it if they could've taken out all of Hamas by blowing up cell phones in their pockets instead.

There’s no risk of Putin being at a random grocery store or hospital so your hypothetical doesn’t tea make sense.

That doesn't answer the question. Let me rephrase to be more direct.

What do you believe makes for acceptable and unacceptable civilian casualties (e.g. children) in urban warfare and what principles do you draw on to form these beliefs? Please use an example from a side you feel are "the good guys".

If you're a pacifist or believe not a single civilian casualty is acceptable, what would your approach be to resolving a conflict where your civilian population is being attacked with rockets/missiles?

According to international law it's acceptable when you're being occupied, as is the case with Palestine. Not saying I agree, but the law makes a big distinction for those under apartheid.

If you’re a pacifist or believe not a single civilian casualty is acceptable, what would your approach be to resolving a conflict where your civilian population is being attacked with rockets/missiles?

I would have started by not being a fucking colony, not putting people into a ghetto, not try to screw people over after a peace process (remember hamas got in power after fatah agreed to give up on armed struggled in exchange for self-determination and all they got was area C and colonies), not occupying part of sovereign countries (Hezbollah was created after the israelis took part of lebannon), and so on.

I mean it was wrong when the US bombed weddings in the middle east and was a bad look. Don't even need hypotheticals.

I would genuinely have prefered it if they could’ve taken out all of Hamas by blowing up cell phones in their pockets instead.

Well you're a terrorist, it's not complicated. Imagine your daughter getting blown up because she sat beside a soldier in mcdonald.

would you condone assassinating Putin with an IED even if several children were killed?

Yes. Fucking obviously what the fuck is wrong with you.

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