Imagine killing three people over a $2 subway fare and parading around the city like you're anything other than a domestic terror force
PICK UP THAT CAN, CITIZEN.
NYPD brass said the alleged fare-beater had charged at the officers with a knife and made verbal threats against their lives; he was last said to be in critical condition, along with one of the bystanders
Yeah, that may have been how it started.
Body-worn camera footage, which Maddrey said he reviewed before the press conference, allegedly showed the man make a verbal threat to the officers. He told the cops, "I'm going to kill you if you don't stop following me," the chief said.
Definitely sounds like the police at fault, and the guy wasn't a walking time bomb or anything.
I get that the situation with the police in the US is cooked, but saying this was over a $2 fare isn't really being honest about the situation.
I mean, for discharging your firearm in an enclosed space with tons of people around? Yeah, I definitely would consider the police at fault. Should the guy with the knife have been persued once it was revealed he was armed? Sure, I can accept that. But what I do not accept is that the police seem to, despite the absurd modern toolkit at their disposal, only have two tools they actually use: their taser and their gun.
Why is it that seemingly anywhere else a knife-wielding assailant can be subdued without blood being drawn, but here it results in several people suffering life threatening injuries and one dead?
It's much cheaper (and better for psychological conditioning to the Policed States of America) to just hire the cheapest community college dropouts with a pant size bigger than their IQ than it is to attract, train, and maintain a respectable (read: "for the community") police force. If the US adopted similar requirements for their police as a country like Germany, I'd imagine we'd lose well over half of our force instantly, with most of the rest quitting soon after being asked to not shoot people at the first sign of noncompliance.
I think the argument being made here is that what you have described is egregious enough and also a fair take on what is alleged to have happened.
Unlike saying "a guy jumped a turnstile and police opened fire for $2" which now looks like a ragebait equivocation.
I will concede that. The original comment was an oversimplification
seemingly anywhere else a knife-wielding assailant can be subdued without blood being drawn,
Where has this actually happened though? I very much doubt it's standard practice for any police force.
The japanese use the sasumata for this purpose.
My mans knife attacks are the primary deadly assault weapon used basically anywhere else on earth that you cant get guns from vending machines. I know that is hyperbole, but only just.
guns from vending machines.
So my first reaction is scoffing at how ridiculous of an idea that is, but then I think about the US and it's not as unlikely anymore.
guns from vending machines.
We're working toward it. Texas got bullet vending machines.
Except there is no evidence of a knife outside of the police story, bystanders say there was no knife and to my knowledge they still haven't found a knife
"alleged fare-beater had charged at the officers with a knife and made verbal threats against their lives; "
The fare jumper sociopath escalated to violence and threats with a deadly weapon. That's the person responsible here.
I'm sure you would use your Jedi mind tricks in this circumstance.
Read up on how knife attacks go down in close quarters. Theres a reason British police frequently wear knife vests.
what was the crime committed by the bystanders who got shot by the police?
Yes, no way to prevent this /s
The violence wouldn’t have been escalated if
The cops didn’t chase them down for a measly fare
The cops weren’t absolute monsters that shoot first and ask questions never
Simple cause and effect, coupled with pre-existing fear of cops because of the multitude of times they’ve shot a person dead over nothing, or kneeled on their neck until they were dead over cigarettes.
Maddrey said the officers followed the man, each firing a Taser which proved ineffective in subduing the man. He then exited the train while it was still at the station and charged the officers with the knife, the chief said.
What, it's not a good idea to do that now?
Last I'd heard the cops were still looking for the mystery knife. That said, being around police in general is bad for your health.
Seems to me like charging the police with a knife is just performing a public service now. It takes balls too.
Nah, it's definitely the police in the wrong here.
Yes, firing a gun in a crowded subway station is absolutely in the wrong, as we can see by the three innocent people shot, one in the head. There are police forces across the world trained to deal with assailants with deadly weapons including knives without shooting them. It’s reasonable to expect the NYPD to have the same level of training and judgement.
They tried to Taser the guy twice.
Just out of interest, what would you have done differently?
Honestly? The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe. US police are far too afraid for their own safety, and automatically reach for their gun when they think there might be the slightest minor chance that they could be in a little bit of danger.
If being in dangerous situations makes you open fire in a crowd of random innocent people, then you should not be a cop. Cops need to learn to accept the risks they signed up for, de-escalate, and protect the public before they obsess over protecting themselves. I know protecting the public is not technically their job, but opening fire in a crowded subway is laughably irresponsible, and should be an immediate fireable offense.
The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe. ... they think there might be the slightest minor chance that they could be in a little bit of danger.
I don't disagree with your overall sentiment that police need better de-escalation training and non-lethal defense weapons - but you need to seriously re-examine your perception of how dangerous a knife attack is. Please don't trivialize it just to make a point, because it undermines your own credibility and weakens your otherwise reasonable argument.
That’s a fair point, I appreciate it. Knives are a dangerous weapon, no doubt about it. They just don’t represent the same level of danger as a loaded gun. But your point is well taken.
I know protecting the public is not technically their job
It literally is the main job.
I always have this link ready to go, because you would be totally reasonable in assuming it’s their main job, but our lovely Supreme Court says otherwise.
The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe.
Where do people like you even come from?
Also, they tasered the guy twice before finally shooting him, so they didn't "automatically reach for their guns".
I come from an over-policed city, where I am genuinely afraid of every cop I see, because of stories just like this.
So you don’t think cops should be required to gauge the risk to the public before they gauge the risk to themselves? They chose a dangerous career, and seem unwilling to accept the risks that come along with it. A knife is less dangerous than a loaded gun, I don’t think that’s a controversial thing to say.
I'm not saying the police were perfect here, but someone attacking you with a knife isn't something that "might" kill you, it's an incredibly dangerous situation that presents an immediate danger to your life.
Honestly, some of the comments here are so detached from reality it's incredible.
Cops are too quick to use violence. That’s just a sad reality. Violence is not necessarily the correct response to a violent situation. There are ton of techniques to deescalate even the most violent and dangerous situations. Granted, the NYPD isn’t trained in those techniques, so that’s a big problem, but the cops put the public in more danger than the danger the cops faced by this one violent individual. Personally, I would rather the police put public safety above all else, including themselves. I know asking anyone to put themselves at risk to protect another person is a lot to ask, but if cops aren’t willing to do that, then it comes down to us. And in that case, what are the cops for?
but the cops put the public in more danger than the danger the cops faced by this one violent individual.
I'm not sure that's the case here actually, it sounds to me like it was only a matter of time before this person went off on someone if they were so quick to pull a knife on the police.
The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe.
Holy damn, this has got to be the worst take I've read all day/week.
I know in video games, a knife generally doesn't do much damage but... Just... Wow.
Go outside.
Even in video games, a knife is typically pretty deadly. It's an instant kill if you stab someone in the back in a few games.
Fair, I play more RPGs and whatnot where a knife takes 4 years to injure someone. (Though, a bad sword can take just as long because, I dunno, it's too dull to chop through this peasant's leather tunic? Goddamnit Ultima.)
Use physical force?
Why is it all well and good for them to risk innocent peoples lives by firing a loaded weapon in a confined space?
Firefighters risk their lives everyday, cops cant even risk a fight.
Seriously? That's your solution, a wrestling match with a knife weilding perp?
Yes?
Thats a standard police response in the first world.
Your solution is to murder innocent civilians.
They have tasers, which didn't work. Then move to pepper spray to blind the person and batons to subdue them.
Other countries where guns are uncommon but knife attacks are more common they have long hooked poles to capture someone. That's impractical to carry so wouldn't have been available in this situation but it is a tool that can be used when called out to a knife threat.
The problem here is the response doesn't match the crime (fare avoidance) and doesn't match the threat either. If the only solution you have for littering is to blow up a city then its time to step back and rethink the problem.
Three innocent people injured, months of investigation, and millions in lawsuit settlements. This is a failure of the officers but also a failure in training them how to respond.
If it wasn't for insane ideas they'd have to say the cops were maybe not wildly in the wrong here so insanity it is!
Yep.
A lot of people have a totally black and white view of the world, and they will never admit that, occasionally, the group they hate isn't totally in the wrong. It's kinda sad actually.
Oink oink
Relevant username
I'd like to think it's just because online skews young. I remember (with some shame) my stupid teenage anarchist days. Though I do worry that if I had, as so many do nowadays, ensconced myself only in views with which I agreed, maybe I wouldn't have grown out of it. The more smart people you meet, disagree with and learn from, well, the bigger and more interesting your world becomes.
I love the idea of Lemmy but goddamn, a good chunk of our userbase need to grow up and I'm not sure they ever will.
They weren't necessarily in the right either. They wounded a couple of bystanders in the process.
They were about to be wounded themselves, by the sound of it.
Oh well better they shot someone innocent.
This is as reckless as cops getting into high speed pursuits. And the whole death could had been avoided if they didnt waste everyones time cracking down on a train fare.
It also could have been avoided if the nutter hadn't pulled a knife on the police.
Right, maybe we should be holding law enforcement to a higher standard than mentally ill people?
porque no los dos?
According to the comments, the solution here is for the police to get in a wrestling match with the man running at them with a knife.
Very reasonable thing to expect.
Literally every other police force in the world could handle some untrained bloke with a pocket knife, ditto for a pair. They do it every day.
But no, the solution here is to never have a system in place where the people catching fare jumpers are the same mentally unstable domestic abusers who are given a carte blanche to kill anyone who does anything less than kiss the ground they walk on
some untrained bloke with a pocket knife,
Wow.
He is some reading material on why people hate the NYPD so much. We don't want wrestling matches but shooting someone in the head for $2 is just plan bad. Don't worry there are a lot more examples if you like.
OR MAYBE DON'T FUCKING STALK AND THREATEN SOMEONE OVER 3 FUCKIN DOLLARS.
MAYBE DON'T BE THE PEOPLE WHO INSPIRE MORE FEAR THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE WON'T BE IN FIGHT OR FLIGHT MODE AROUND YOU.
Do you think that guy just goes around running at anyone with knives, or just the people who got paid $50m to bully the population over a $200k deficit?
This is a police manufactured problem. Attack the source to solve it.
Sometimes the police from the USA go to Europe to learn how to handle these situations without murder. And European police sometimes go to the USA to learn how to handle gun situations.
This would not have happened anywhere outside of the USA, not even in dangerous countries. Just my 2c
I'm from New Zealand, our police shoot people with knives occasionally. I'm not convinced this would have ended differently here, or any other country.
A knife is an incredibly dangerous weapon, and the alternative solutions being proposed here just aren't realistic.
The man catcher poles thing was pretty funny though.
If train stations stocked japanese man-catcher poles (sasumata) they could easily subdue a knife wielding suspect with zero risk to themselves and bystanders. No one is saying go toe to toe with a knife wielding person.
Imagine killing three people over a $2 subway fare and parading around the city like you're anything other than a domestic terror force
PICK UP THAT CAN, CITIZEN.
Yeah, that may have been how it started.
Definitely sounds like the police at fault, and the guy wasn't a walking time bomb or anything.
I get that the situation with the police in the US is cooked, but saying this was over a $2 fare isn't really being honest about the situation.
I mean, for discharging your firearm in an enclosed space with tons of people around? Yeah, I definitely would consider the police at fault. Should the guy with the knife have been persued once it was revealed he was armed? Sure, I can accept that. But what I do not accept is that the police seem to, despite the absurd modern toolkit at their disposal, only have two tools they actually use: their taser and their gun.
Why is it that seemingly anywhere else a knife-wielding assailant can be subdued without blood being drawn, but here it results in several people suffering life threatening injuries and one dead?
It's much cheaper (and better for psychological conditioning to the Policed States of America) to just hire the cheapest community college dropouts with a pant size bigger than their IQ than it is to attract, train, and maintain a respectable (read: "for the community") police force. If the US adopted similar requirements for their police as a country like Germany, I'd imagine we'd lose well over half of our force instantly, with most of the rest quitting soon after being asked to not shoot people at the first sign of noncompliance.
I think the argument being made here is that what you have described is egregious enough and also a fair take on what is alleged to have happened.
Unlike saying "a guy jumped a turnstile and police opened fire for $2" which now looks like a ragebait equivocation.
I will concede that. The original comment was an oversimplification
Where has this actually happened though? I very much doubt it's standard practice for any police force.
The japanese use the sasumata for this purpose.
My mans knife attacks are the primary deadly assault weapon used basically anywhere else on earth that you cant get guns from vending machines. I know that is hyperbole, but only just.
So my first reaction is scoffing at how ridiculous of an idea that is, but then I think about the US and it's not as unlikely anymore.
We're working toward it. Texas got bullet vending machines.
Except there is no evidence of a knife outside of the police story, bystanders say there was no knife and to my knowledge they still haven't found a knife
The fare jumper sociopath escalated to violence and threats with a deadly weapon. That's the person responsible here.
I'm sure you would use your Jedi mind tricks in this circumstance.
Read up on how knife attacks go down in close quarters. Theres a reason British police frequently wear knife vests.
what was the crime committed by the bystanders who got shot by the police?
Yes, no way to prevent this /s
The violence wouldn’t have been escalated if
Simple cause and effect, coupled with pre-existing fear of cops because of the multitude of times they’ve shot a person dead over nothing, or kneeled on their neck until they were dead over cigarettes.
What, it's not a good idea to do that now?
Last I'd heard the cops were still looking for the mystery knife. That said, being around police in general is bad for your health.
Seems to me like charging the police with a knife is just performing a public service now. It takes balls too.
Nah, it's definitely the police in the wrong here.
Yes, firing a gun in a crowded subway station is absolutely in the wrong, as we can see by the three innocent people shot, one in the head. There are police forces across the world trained to deal with assailants with deadly weapons including knives without shooting them. It’s reasonable to expect the NYPD to have the same level of training and judgement.
They tried to Taser the guy twice.
Just out of interest, what would you have done differently?
Honestly? The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe. US police are far too afraid for their own safety, and automatically reach for their gun when they think there might be the slightest minor chance that they could be in a little bit of danger.
If being in dangerous situations makes you open fire in a crowd of random innocent people, then you should not be a cop. Cops need to learn to accept the risks they signed up for, de-escalate, and protect the public before they obsess over protecting themselves. I know protecting the public is not technically their job, but opening fire in a crowded subway is laughably irresponsible, and should be an immediate fireable offense.
I don't disagree with your overall sentiment that police need better de-escalation training and non-lethal defense weapons - but you need to seriously re-examine your perception of how dangerous a knife attack is. Please don't trivialize it just to make a point, because it undermines your own credibility and weakens your otherwise reasonable argument.
That’s a fair point, I appreciate it. Knives are a dangerous weapon, no doubt about it. They just don’t represent the same level of danger as a loaded gun. But your point is well taken.
It literally is the main job.
I always have this link ready to go, because you would be totally reasonable in assuming it’s their main job, but our lovely Supreme Court says otherwise.
Edit: here’s a non-paywalled link
Where do people like you even come from?
Also, they tasered the guy twice before finally shooting him, so they didn't "automatically reach for their guns".
I come from an over-policed city, where I am genuinely afraid of every cop I see, because of stories just like this.
So you don’t think cops should be required to gauge the risk to the public before they gauge the risk to themselves? They chose a dangerous career, and seem unwilling to accept the risks that come along with it. A knife is less dangerous than a loaded gun, I don’t think that’s a controversial thing to say.
I'm not saying the police were perfect here, but someone attacking you with a knife isn't something that "might" kill you, it's an incredibly dangerous situation that presents an immediate danger to your life.
Honestly, some of the comments here are so detached from reality it's incredible.
Cops are too quick to use violence. That’s just a sad reality. Violence is not necessarily the correct response to a violent situation. There are ton of techniques to deescalate even the most violent and dangerous situations. Granted, the NYPD isn’t trained in those techniques, so that’s a big problem, but the cops put the public in more danger than the danger the cops faced by this one violent individual. Personally, I would rather the police put public safety above all else, including themselves. I know asking anyone to put themselves at risk to protect another person is a lot to ask, but if cops aren’t willing to do that, then it comes down to us. And in that case, what are the cops for?
I'm not sure that's the case here actually, it sounds to me like it was only a matter of time before this person went off on someone if they were so quick to pull a knife on the police.
Holy damn, this has got to be the worst take I've read all day/week.
I know in video games, a knife generally doesn't do much damage but... Just... Wow.
Go outside.
Even in video games, a knife is typically pretty deadly. It's an instant kill if you stab someone in the back in a few games.
Fair, I play more RPGs and whatnot where a knife takes 4 years to injure someone. (Though, a bad sword can take just as long because, I dunno, it's too dull to chop through this peasant's leather tunic? Goddamnit Ultima.)
Use physical force?
Why is it all well and good for them to risk innocent peoples lives by firing a loaded weapon in a confined space?
Firefighters risk their lives everyday, cops cant even risk a fight.
Seriously? That's your solution, a wrestling match with a knife weilding perp?
Yes?
Thats a standard police response in the first world.
Your solution is to murder innocent civilians.
They have tasers, which didn't work. Then move to pepper spray to blind the person and batons to subdue them.
Other countries where guns are uncommon but knife attacks are more common they have long hooked poles to capture someone. That's impractical to carry so wouldn't have been available in this situation but it is a tool that can be used when called out to a knife threat.
The problem here is the response doesn't match the crime (fare avoidance) and doesn't match the threat either. If the only solution you have for littering is to blow up a city then its time to step back and rethink the problem.
Three innocent people injured, months of investigation, and millions in lawsuit settlements. This is a failure of the officers but also a failure in training them how to respond.
If it wasn't for insane ideas they'd have to say the cops were maybe not wildly in the wrong here so insanity it is!
Yep.
A lot of people have a totally black and white view of the world, and they will never admit that, occasionally, the group they hate isn't totally in the wrong. It's kinda sad actually.
Oink oink
Relevant username
I'd like to think it's just because online skews young. I remember (with some shame) my stupid teenage anarchist days. Though I do worry that if I had, as so many do nowadays, ensconced myself only in views with which I agreed, maybe I wouldn't have grown out of it. The more smart people you meet, disagree with and learn from, well, the bigger and more interesting your world becomes.
I love the idea of Lemmy but goddamn, a good chunk of our userbase need to grow up and I'm not sure they ever will.
They weren't necessarily in the right either. They wounded a couple of bystanders in the process.
They were about to be wounded themselves, by the sound of it.
Oh well better they shot someone innocent.
This is as reckless as cops getting into high speed pursuits. And the whole death could had been avoided if they didnt waste everyones time cracking down on a train fare.
It also could have been avoided if the nutter hadn't pulled a knife on the police.
Right, maybe we should be holding law enforcement to a higher standard than mentally ill people?
porque no los dos?
According to the comments, the solution here is for the police to get in a wrestling match with the man running at them with a knife.
Very reasonable thing to expect.
Literally every other police force in the world could handle some untrained bloke with a pocket knife, ditto for a pair. They do it every day.
But no, the solution here is to never have a system in place where the people catching fare jumpers are the same mentally unstable domestic abusers who are given a carte blanche to kill anyone who does anything less than kiss the ground they walk on
Wow.
He is some reading material on why people hate the NYPD so much. We don't want wrestling matches but shooting someone in the head for $2 is just plan bad. Don't worry there are a lot more examples if you like.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Amadou_Diallo
https://apnews.com/article/subway-shooting-stray-bullet-nypd-6dceddf47afc27db128ebba98f2076b5
OR MAYBE DON'T FUCKING STALK AND THREATEN SOMEONE OVER 3 FUCKIN DOLLARS.
MAYBE DON'T BE THE PEOPLE WHO INSPIRE MORE FEAR THAN ANYONE ELSE IN THE COUNTRY AND PEOPLE WON'T BE IN FIGHT OR FLIGHT MODE AROUND YOU.
Do you think that guy just goes around running at anyone with knives, or just the people who got paid $50m to bully the population over a $200k deficit?
This is a police manufactured problem. Attack the source to solve it.
Sometimes the police from the USA go to Europe to learn how to handle these situations without murder. And European police sometimes go to the USA to learn how to handle gun situations.
This would not have happened anywhere outside of the USA, not even in dangerous countries. Just my 2c
I'm from New Zealand, our police shoot people with knives occasionally. I'm not convinced this would have ended differently here, or any other country.
A knife is an incredibly dangerous weapon, and the alternative solutions being proposed here just aren't realistic.
The man catcher poles thing was pretty funny though.
If train stations stocked japanese man-catcher poles (sasumata) they could easily subdue a knife wielding suspect with zero risk to themselves and bystanders. No one is saying go toe to toe with a knife wielding person.