I'm a dirty foreigner and I'm not too clear on the status of Puerto Rico, but somehow I'd assumed that they'd get to vote in federal elections since they're a part of the country
They're a part of the country, in that they are citizens and pay taxes. They don't have representation in Congress (they send delegates, but those people can't vote on anything) and they aren't represented in the electoral college.
Fun fact, citizens of Washington DC are similarly unrepresented in Congress, but they do get to vote for President.
Sounds like taxation without representation to me
The DC liscense plate says just that.
Quick, throw that one a license plate.
I've never really understood why DC folks don't get a vote, but at least I knew about that one (it gets mentioned in movies and series from time to time)
DC is a small area entirelt under the ruling of the federal government, and because the government is made up of representatives from states they do not get a vote. The original idea was congress and the federal government shouldn’t be housed under any state laws.
But I'd assume there's other folks in DC besides just congresscritters? It just feels weird that you disenfranchise (whew what a word to spell) people when they are state representatives or they happen to live in the place where the congresscritters do their thing.
I think in general disenfranchising people feels weird to me; I'm Finnish and I'm so used to the idea that literally everybody has a vote no matter what – here all citizens who are over 18 get a vote, whether in parliamentary, presidental, or municipal elections, and the only way to lose your right to vote is to renounce your citizenship. Doesn't matter whether you're an ax murderer or a member of parliament (hopefully not both at the same time though.)
It didn’t matter when DC was 99% swamp, but it’s more of a problem now. My thinking is the people living in DC chose to live there, it’s a very rich area and anyone living in DC has the means to live outside. They knew they wouldn’t have a congressional vote. Also, DC still has municipal elections.
There's plenty of poor people that live in DC. it's not all rich fucks
Yeah, if anything the rich fucks live across the border in Northern Virginia.
Oh dude. There's 87,000 people living in poverty in DC.
DC doesn't get its own separate representative because every congressperson has a vested interest in representing it (since they all live there half the time). The arrangement was specifically designed to avoid giving DC too much power.
They're not willing enough to riot.
Nope. They get a non-voting representative in congress who can speak on issues but has no ability to directly impact legislation.
That honestly seems a bit fucked up. What on earth do they get out of the arrangement if they're not even able to have the slightest bit of influence in the system?
They have access to US markets and are defended by the US military, without some of the requirements of being a full state.
It seems to be that it'd be better for PR to join as a full state, but thus far they've not gotten the votes together to do it.
from what I understand about it, which I am in no way a scholar on the area I am just going off what I remember from my grandfather who was a history teacher. In order for them to get statehood they essentially have to vote on it twice in favor in a row, because they need to vote on it to elect faux representatives to act on their behalf in washington, then on top of that they need to vote yes on it again a few years later during the actual status of the statehood. Currently they have done the first two steps, and are (unless it's blocked) currently set up to vote on the status of their state this August.
It's not as though they're not given the opportunity to become a state. They have voted in the past for things to stay as-is. If I recall, it was a pretty close vote, however.
Ohhh ok, I see. Interesting that they voted against it; are there downsides to statehood vs. their current status?
Big Money is involved - here is an interesting description, enjoy!:-)
Big Money is involved
Fuckin' figures. Thanks for the link! My friend's been telling me to watch John Oliver anyhow so now I have a great excuse
He is the best!:-)
A lot of economic benefits. Easy trade with the US, for example.
Just a note on the tax part:
Consequently, while all Puerto Rico residents pay federal taxes, many residents are not required to pay federal income taxes. Aside from income tax, U.S. federal taxes include customs taxes,[1] federal commodity taxes, and federal payroll taxes (Social Security, Medicare, and Unemployment taxes).
Basically they are what the 13 colonies were. Taxed to shit without support and rep lmao
Hah that's true. What would be their equivalent of the Boston Tea Party today? Dump all the Viagra they've manufactured in the sea? "Puerto Rico Viagra Party" sounds like a porn title
Puerto Rico is not a state. Neither is DC, nor Guam, etc
I always forget about Guam.
I didn't realize that statehood is a requirement for actual representation in Congress / the House and being able to participate in federal elections. I've just blithely assumed that they'd get some sort of representation regardless, and that everybody would have voting rights.
Pretty sure they can vote, technically. However only states have senators and congress critters, and the president is elected by the electoral college, which is based on house and senate representatives
You got some solid answers here, but I'll add this: Puerto Ricans don't necessarily wish statehood. The issue is controversial down there.
What are the downsides? I have basically zero knowledge about this and wish to learn.
Some of them would have to start paying income taxes, which kind of defeats the only point of living in a US Territory that can be annihilated by a bad hurricane season.
On Wednesday, Maine’s legislature passed a bill joining a compact to commit all of their electoral votes, regardless of who won in their individual state, to whichever candidate won the national popular vote.
This brings the total electoral votes joining the compact to 209. Michigan will join soon, bringing it to 225.
270 electoral votes needed for the change to take effect. We're getting there.
I didn't think "getting there" is going to happen in our lifetime. We're just going to hit a ceiling where "obviously blue" states join, and the rest don't, which will hit before 270.
There could be some purple states where the stars align and this passes, but yeah, at least a generation, probably more
Even once they "get there" the battle really starts. Interstate compacts must be approved by congress, which this never has been.
I don’t live in a swing state and I feel disenfranchised. My vote for president, for all intents and purposes, does not count in the current electoral college system.
I can’t wait for the compact to go into effect. Turnout in so many states would increase a lot.
However, my optimism is tampered by this supreme court.
If anything, living in a swing state makes it count more
I swear the word “don’t” was added in later
Literally what that person just said. They said: if they vote against the US district or state majority then their vote didn't really do anything.
See the guys other comment. Seems they accidentally added the "don't"
You mean to say they edited it in later? Because your comment makes no sense otherwise.
That's what I meant, yes.
Wow, long thread about it. By the way, I didn’t add the “don’t” after your comment. I just fixed a typo from “I can’t way for…” to “I can’t wait for…”. The “don’t” was there all along. You may have missed it. But no worries. I think we are all on the same page here.
Yeah, I wore that eight hours into a 12 hour graveyard shift. My brain was not fully functioning and I just wanted to inform the guy that you had updated your comment
Not a great solution. We need ranked voting. Not perfect, but significantly better than the 2 party shitshow we're currently saddled with.
Weirdly Maine is/maybe was the only state that did ranked choice voting. But it also kinda sounds like this new system supercedes it.
Yup, sadly it’ll never gain enough momentum where it needs to. It’s like the ERA all over again
It's literally pending in enough states to be enacted nationwide. If only 270 EC Votes get pledged to the popular winner then the popular winner gets the presidency every time. As long as it doesn't die in a committee then it could be up and running before the 2028 election cycle.
That’s not true. All states added up it’s under 210
It's officially the law for 205 votes, it is pending vote in states adding up to 101, for a total of 306. And mind you, 5 states joined in the 2 year period before the 2020 election.
Do you realize how many bills are pending votes lol? Marijuana legalization is pending votes all across the USA, doesn’t mean I can light up in the Deep South anytime soon
So, how is this more democratic AND Nebraska doing away with EVs by congressional district less democratic? Is making the winner based on less granular vote or more what we want?
The goal should be making the national popular election the deciding factor in a presidential race, Maine is moving us closer to that goal, Nebraska is not.
The national popular vote is like being the team that had the most points in a 7 game series instead of the one that won the most games.
Because Trump bullied them into doing that (or tried to)
We don't care about consistency if it means the turd sandwich wins over the giant douche.
Unless Maine also repeals their use of instant runoff voting for the presidential election, their own votes won't count toward the national popular vote. The compact makes no provision for counting ranked ballots, and there isn't really any fair way to do so anyway.
I thought I heard the Supreme Court struck this down already somewhere maybe it was a state Supreme Court
Must have been, I don’t think a case has made it to SCOTUS about this
All well and good right up until it works against you... Everyone points to Gore and Clinton, but imagine what happens the first time a Democrat loses under this system, there will be riots.
If a democrat loses under this system they will have lost fairly.
Yes, and that won't stop the rioting.
This just fucks over the people of Maine. Call me when first past the post is eliminated or Citizens United is repealed. Until then the US is a pseudodemocracy.
It doesn't fuck over the people of Maine. The pact only goes into effect once a controlling majority of electoral votes are pledged to the plan. Once that happens, the electoral college is functionally eliminated, and the President will only ever be the winner of the popular vote.
Technically the electoral college isn't eliminated, it just makes it so the votes go the the winner of the popular vote and not the gerrymandering. This would put every state on an equal footing and no more red state/blue state nonsense. People disillusioned by the current system can begin to feel like their vote "actually counts", and maybe drive more people to actually participate in elections "where every vote counts".
EDIT - Sorry themeatbridge, we are saying the same thing. I read your reply quick and thought you stated it was eliminated, not just functionally eliminated which is a big distinction that would require a lot more effort.
Functionally eliminated isn't the same thing as eliminated.
No gerrymandering affecting the presidential election sounds nice, still though
Ah, so they signed onto the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact!
There's a CGP Grey video on how it generally works for those with short attention space and/or a need for dry government humor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUX-frlNBJY
Waaaiit, Puerto Ricans don't get a vote?
I'm a dirty foreigner and I'm not too clear on the status of Puerto Rico, but somehow I'd assumed that they'd get to vote in federal elections since they're a part of the country
They're a part of the country, in that they are citizens and pay taxes. They don't have representation in Congress (they send delegates, but those people can't vote on anything) and they aren't represented in the electoral college.
Fun fact, citizens of Washington DC are similarly unrepresented in Congress, but they do get to vote for President.
Sounds like taxation without representation to me
The DC liscense plate says just that.
Quick, throw that one a license plate.
I've never really understood why DC folks don't get a vote, but at least I knew about that one (it gets mentioned in movies and series from time to time)
DC is a small area entirelt under the ruling of the federal government, and because the government is made up of representatives from states they do not get a vote. The original idea was congress and the federal government shouldn’t be housed under any state laws.
But I'd assume there's other folks in DC besides just congresscritters? It just feels weird that you disenfranchise (whew what a word to spell) people when they are state representatives or they happen to live in the place where the congresscritters do their thing.
I think in general disenfranchising people feels weird to me; I'm Finnish and I'm so used to the idea that literally everybody has a vote no matter what – here all citizens who are over 18 get a vote, whether in parliamentary, presidental, or municipal elections, and the only way to lose your right to vote is to renounce your citizenship. Doesn't matter whether you're an ax murderer or a member of parliament (hopefully not both at the same time though.)
It didn’t matter when DC was 99% swamp, but it’s more of a problem now. My thinking is the people living in DC chose to live there, it’s a very rich area and anyone living in DC has the means to live outside. They knew they wouldn’t have a congressional vote. Also, DC still has municipal elections.
There's plenty of poor people that live in DC. it's not all rich fucks
Yeah, if anything the rich fucks live across the border in Northern Virginia.
Oh dude. There's 87,000 people living in poverty in DC.
DC doesn't get its own separate representative because every congressperson has a vested interest in representing it (since they all live there half the time). The arrangement was specifically designed to avoid giving DC too much power.
They're not willing enough to riot.
Nope. They get a non-voting representative in congress who can speak on issues but has no ability to directly impact legislation.
That honestly seems a bit fucked up. What on earth do they get out of the arrangement if they're not even able to have the slightest bit of influence in the system?
They have access to US markets and are defended by the US military, without some of the requirements of being a full state.
It seems to be that it'd be better for PR to join as a full state, but thus far they've not gotten the votes together to do it.
from what I understand about it, which I am in no way a scholar on the area I am just going off what I remember from my grandfather who was a history teacher. In order for them to get statehood they essentially have to vote on it twice in favor in a row, because they need to vote on it to elect faux representatives to act on their behalf in washington, then on top of that they need to vote yes on it again a few years later during the actual status of the statehood. Currently they have done the first two steps, and are (unless it's blocked) currently set up to vote on the status of their state this August.
It's not as though they're not given the opportunity to become a state. They have voted in the past for things to stay as-is. If I recall, it was a pretty close vote, however.
Ohhh ok, I see. Interesting that they voted against it; are there downsides to statehood vs. their current status?
Big Money is involved - here is an interesting description, enjoy!:-)
Fuckin' figures. Thanks for the link! My friend's been telling me to watch John Oliver anyhow so now I have a great excuse
He is the best!:-)
A lot of economic benefits. Easy trade with the US, for example.
Just a note on the tax part:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico
Basically they are what the 13 colonies were. Taxed to shit without support and rep lmao
Hah that's true. What would be their equivalent of the Boston Tea Party today? Dump all the Viagra they've manufactured in the sea? "Puerto Rico Viagra Party" sounds like a porn title
Puerto Rico is not a state. Neither is DC, nor Guam, etc
I always forget about Guam.
I didn't realize that statehood is a requirement for actual representation in Congress / the House and being able to participate in federal elections. I've just blithely assumed that they'd get some sort of representation regardless, and that everybody would have voting rights.
Pretty sure they can vote, technically. However only states have senators and congress critters, and the president is elected by the electoral college, which is based on house and senate representatives
You got some solid answers here, but I'll add this: Puerto Ricans don't necessarily wish statehood. The issue is controversial down there.
What are the downsides? I have basically zero knowledge about this and wish to learn.
Some of them would have to start paying income taxes, which kind of defeats the only point of living in a US Territory that can be annihilated by a bad hurricane season.
This brings the total electoral votes joining the compact to 209. Michigan will join soon, bringing it to 225.
270 electoral votes needed for the change to take effect. We're getting there.
I didn't think "getting there" is going to happen in our lifetime. We're just going to hit a ceiling where "obviously blue" states join, and the rest don't, which will hit before 270.
There could be some purple states where the stars align and this passes, but yeah, at least a generation, probably more
Even once they "get there" the battle really starts. Interstate compacts must be approved by congress, which this never has been.
I don’t live in a swing state and I feel disenfranchised. My vote for president, for all intents and purposes, does not count in the current electoral college system.
I can’t wait for the compact to go into effect. Turnout in so many states would increase a lot.
However, my optimism is tampered by this supreme court.
If anything, living in a swing state makes it count more
I swear the word “don’t” was added in later
Literally what that person just said. They said: if they vote against the US district or state majority then their vote didn't really do anything.
See the guys other comment. Seems they accidentally added the "don't"
You mean to say they edited it in later? Because your comment makes no sense otherwise.
That's what I meant, yes.
Wow, long thread about it. By the way, I didn’t add the “don’t” after your comment. I just fixed a typo from “I can’t way for…” to “I can’t wait for…”. The “don’t” was there all along. You may have missed it. But no worries. I think we are all on the same page here.
Yeah, I wore that eight hours into a 12 hour graveyard shift. My brain was not fully functioning and I just wanted to inform the guy that you had updated your comment
Not a great solution. We need ranked voting. Not perfect, but significantly better than the 2 party shitshow we're currently saddled with.
Weirdly Maine is/maybe was the only state that did ranked choice voting. But it also kinda sounds like this new system supercedes it.
https://www.maine.gov/sos/cec/elec/upcoming/rankedchoicefaq.html
Fantastic, the electoral college is closer to retirement!
Good job Maine. Abolish the electoral college.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact
Yup, sadly it’ll never gain enough momentum where it needs to. It’s like the ERA all over again
It's literally pending in enough states to be enacted nationwide. If only 270 EC Votes get pledged to the popular winner then the popular winner gets the presidency every time. As long as it doesn't die in a committee then it could be up and running before the 2028 election cycle.
That’s not true. All states added up it’s under 210
It's officially the law for 205 votes, it is pending vote in states adding up to 101, for a total of 306. And mind you, 5 states joined in the 2 year period before the 2020 election.
Do you realize how many bills are pending votes lol? Marijuana legalization is pending votes all across the USA, doesn’t mean I can light up in the Deep South anytime soon
So, how is this more democratic AND Nebraska doing away with EVs by congressional district less democratic? Is making the winner based on less granular vote or more what we want?
The goal should be making the national popular election the deciding factor in a presidential race, Maine is moving us closer to that goal, Nebraska is not.
The national popular vote is like being the team that had the most points in a 7 game series instead of the one that won the most games.
Because Trump bullied them into doing that (or tried to)
We don't care about consistency if it means the turd sandwich wins over the giant douche.
Unless Maine also repeals their use of instant runoff voting for the presidential election, their own votes won't count toward the national popular vote. The compact makes no provision for counting ranked ballots, and there isn't really any fair way to do so anyway.
I thought I heard the Supreme Court struck this down already somewhere maybe it was a state Supreme Court
Must have been, I don’t think a case has made it to SCOTUS about this
All well and good right up until it works against you... Everyone points to Gore and Clinton, but imagine what happens the first time a Democrat loses under this system, there will be riots.
If a democrat loses under this system they will have lost fairly.
Yes, and that won't stop the rioting.
This just fucks over the people of Maine. Call me when first past the post is eliminated or Citizens United is repealed. Until then the US is a pseudodemocracy.
It doesn't fuck over the people of Maine. The pact only goes into effect once a controlling majority of electoral votes are pledged to the plan. Once that happens, the electoral college is functionally eliminated, and the President will only ever be the winner of the popular vote.
Technically the electoral college isn't eliminated, it just makes it so the votes go the the winner of the popular vote and not the gerrymandering. This would put every state on an equal footing and no more red state/blue state nonsense. People disillusioned by the current system can begin to feel like their vote "actually counts", and maybe drive more people to actually participate in elections "where every vote counts".
EDIT - Sorry themeatbridge, we are saying the same thing. I read your reply quick and thought you stated it was eliminated, not just functionally eliminated which is a big distinction that would require a lot more effort.
Functionally eliminated isn't the same thing as eliminated.
No gerrymandering affecting the presidential election sounds nice, still though