Sanctions disproportionately hurt innocent civilians. Sanctioning individuals is one thing but entire nations shouldn’t be sanctioned. I thought we learned our lesson from Cuba but apparently not
Edit: for all the neolibs and righties downvoting me, this probably won’t do much to convince you. For anyone else, here’s an explanation on why sanctions are a terrible idea:
Basically, the entire point of sanctions if to hurt civilians. The logic is supposed to be that they will rise up and force a political change due to being angry and, often, starving to death. But that rarely happens. We just end up torturing poor people while wealthy elites get by just fine.
You know what hurts innocent civilians even more? Bombing them.
Y’know what avoids both options? Diplomacy.
That time has passed.
It was never given a chance
Ok, time for war? Sure thing, Macnamara
The discussion was literally about sanctions. Seems like a reasonable step compared to the "war" you immediately jump to, no?
The comment stated it is too late for diplomacy. That means inflicting suffering via outright war or passive actions like sanctions. Both are attacks on innocent civilians.
Ah yes, because telling Netanyahu "please don't bomb children, that is not really nice" has worked out splendidly so far. Diplomacy without being able to put pressure on is nothing more than kindly asking.
Y'know what is the primary method to apply pressure in diplomacy? Sanctions.
Except they don’t work. Rarely have. All they do is torture innocent civilians and even then, really just the poor ones.
Isn't that part of the point? If the populace suffers, government changes are more likely
When has that actually worked?
Apartheid south Africa
You're suggesting that the end of Apartheid was caused solely by the US sanctions causing a popular revolt in South africa?
I did not mention it was solely due to sanctions. But I do think it played a role.
Arguably any revolution comes from a critical mass of the population being unhappy..
History shows it's never quite that clear cut. However that's rather irrelevant. I'm asking when have US sanctions sparked a popular revolution that overthrew a government that was sanctioned?
It’s still inhumane. It’s fine to starve people out via sanctions but not via bombings? There’s a reason people like Sanders continue to oppose sanctions
That's the inhumane condition you care about? Not the 34000 dead? Murdering journalists, doctors, food workers? None of that?
Sanctions don’t stop that. So you have a genocide and a starving populace in a second country. JFC when did Lemmy turn into a bunch of neolibs?
Neoliberals are Zionists
Neoliberals love sanctions. Leftists typically oppose suffering.
Israel is a democracy, or so we have been told.
Which means sanctions would motivate the voters to elect a new government that opposes genocide. Which is the result we want.
Therefore, sanctions are justified because they would stop Israel's genocide of Gaza by forcing Israeli voters to face the consequence of voting for genocidal fascists
Why is everyone speaking in hypotheticals/theory? Sanctions have been used in the past. Has it achieved the desired result? If we don't know, maybe start with that
Which would be better to you? You're a civilian somewhere - do you prefer to watch your livelyhood slowly being destroyed by your government or do you want a boom?
I'd assume the former gives you a chance to recognize it and do something, the latter is just boom.
False dichotomy. Sanctions don’t stop genocidal maniacs. They just ADD suffering to the world. Would I rather have 1 million people suffer or 2 million? I know the answer!
You are confirming the validity of Israeli actions against Hamas.
Howso
Think. Seriously.
Assume I can't draw the conclusions you want me to. Please explain it
The Palestinian populace is made to suffer in an attempt to produce a regime change.
Yea, it's unfortunate how ignorant, and intellectually dishonest this conversation is, so far.
When I think of sanctions today, I think of Trump putting sanctions on Venezuela, tons of leftists saying that will disproportionately hurt the people living there, the country's finances going belly up, then thousands of Venezuelan refugees looking for a new home, and then of course the US denying its involvement and refusing to help and acrually choosing to spend ridiculous amounts of money to make the situation worse for literally everyone.
Sanctions have been used many times since Cuba with varying success.
I’d say this situation calls for them to protect other innocent civilians.
Varying success politically, yes. But it always damages innocent civilians.
Some forms of sanctions but how would something like an arms embargo hurt innocent civilians?
An arms embargo restricts weapons sales and the like. Sanctions are designed to harm civilians. Suffering is the point. The (typically incorrect) idea is that suffering people will force political change. But again, that has rarely happened. People just end up suffering.
An arms embargo are a type of sanction.
Yes, but when people sanction a country, they mean widespread economic sanctions.
Aren't we currently sanctioning Russia, North Korea and Iran?
Yes, also; Afghanistan, The Balkans, Belarus, Central African Republic, China, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Mali, Myanmar, Nicaragua, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Zimbabwe and countless individuals
Great examples of suffering people! Especially North Korea.
Edit: and also cases where the sanctions did literally nothing to change those governments’ actions
It was a logistical snafu. Other shipments are not delayed. CNN
Back to your regularly scheduled Genocide.
Just the weekly gaslighting from the Biden admistration that they're not trying to help israel commit Genocide as hard as possible.
Nothing to see here everyone. Don't forget to vote for Genocide Joe in November!
Nah vote for third party or trump because trump winning will absolutely help Palestinians and totally not hurt them greatly. /s
Why would you vote for Trump?
Because your canvassing is working! /s
You spend every waking hour on this cause so I hope you're at least getting paid for it
There's is easily over 100% chance they're getting paid for it.
Biden spends every waking hour supporting this Genocide. I've said 6 months ago that the second he stops it is the second I stop defaming his Genocidal ass.
Did he stop supporting Genocide yet?
Yes everyone who disagrees with you is a lover of genocide
If you live in the US or a close ally, you are complicit in the genocide of Palestinians.
If your strategy is to get people to vote for genocide joe by checks notes being condescending towards people who feel that genocide is a red line... you are just screaming into the wind mad that your politics are a dead end that nobody believes in anymore.
Genocide Joe needs to earn my vote and stop directly supporting a genocide while simultaneously spitting in the face of those raising their voices in alarm.
You want my vote? Easy pick up the phone and tell Netanyahu it's over.
Yep will get so much better under..checks notes
..Trump
I'm not being condescending to anyone who doesn't know what they're doing
I find it especially hilarious that you pretend this is about Palestinians like you give a fuck and you can't even resist a trump style toddler insult GeNocIdE jOe
I find it especially hilarious that you pretend this is about Palestinians like you give a fuck and you can’t even resist a trump style toddler insult GeNocIdE jOe
I’m sorry wait what, do you question my motives for caring about a genocide?
If you want to been seen as someone who gives a fuck about Palestinians, you should probably not spread contempt for the only way to reduce harm against them. Instead you are fueling a new era of misery for them -- while using a style of insult only used by Trump in recent years.
It's just kinda funny you think people won't notice... any of this. But sure, use your pathetic crutch, the only one you have: "if you disagree, you love genocide".
Instead you are fueling a new era of misery for them
Sorry I dont know if I made this clear I am actually not the president of the US, it is Biden currently, thus it is him facilating a fueling a genocide. If Biden wants my vote he can wield his power to stop the genocide, and not at some indefinite time in the future, NOW .
This is such a toxic, dehumanizing concept... To say citizens who live in countries with corrupt governments are complicit in the actions of the very government that oppresses them is straight up evil.
Like, dude, we can't even fucking get sick over here without risking financial ruin. And you want to say we ALL are responsible for the actions of our government - even while many of us actively protest those same actions?
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. You are stripping away the humanity and agency of everyone in an entire country when you assert such things. This is simply evil - it's something that, ironically, corrupt governments love to do.
Like, dude, we can’t even fucking get sick over here without risking financial ruin. And you want to say we ALL are responsible for the actions of our government - even while many of us actively protest those same actions?
Yes, that does not mean I place the primary blame on citizens nor does it mean I don't appreciate the power of protest (hopefully it will be enough to force Biden to change course, for the US's sake and for Palestinians). Still, it is the US government using US citizen's tax dollars to facilitate this genocide. That makes all US citizens complicit.
it is the US government using US citizen’s tax dollars to facilitate this genocide. That makes all US citizens complicit.
The hell it does. I don't get a say in where my tax dollars I'm legally required to pay go. If someone steals your money, uses it to buy a gun, and murders someone with it, are you complicit?
The hell it does. I donât get a say in where my tax dollars Iâm legally required to pay go. If someone steals your money, uses it to buy a gun, and murders someone with it, are you complicit?
Obviously directly shooting someone is the most complicit someone can be, but plenty of people leave firearms out in plain view with compatible ammo also in plain view nearby. If you leave your firearm out in plain view next to ammunition where a child could easily find it yes if someone steals that gun or picks it up and fiddles with it and ends up shooting someone, you are complicit to a significant degree for posessing such a dangerous tool and not properly safeguarding it.
The same thing goes with the U.S. military industrial complex.
Well at least we'll have Genocide Trump and the important thing - the ick of having to vote for Genocide Joe and be responsible for everything he does - will be mitigated.
I honestly believe Trump could easily thrust the entire world into another major war... The idea of dismantling NATO alone would be extremely dangerous.
Anyone with a brain can see the danger here, and separate it from the other horrors and dangers. Honestly, I think the guy here screaming about it is a bad actor, though.
Are you a Trump voter regardless of this issue? I think you are. That, or your just here parroting propaganda.
No sane person is going to let Trump win over Biden because of this. Trump has openly supported Israel and their genocide more than Biden ever has or will.
Are you a Trump voter
My friend, you're talking to Dimitri in St. Petersburg. He probably can't even really vote in his own countries elections.
It's always about letting Trump win with folks like you. Maybe if GJ was someone worth voting for you wouldn't have to work so hard to convince people to hold their noses and vote for corporate trash.
Yes he's the lesser of two evils, that doesn't make him good by default and the oh so earnest hand wringing of "this could be our last election" doesn't actually help your case the way you (obviously) think it does.
Were you tuned out of the last 6 months of Biden unconditionally supporting Genocide and pretending to wag his finger every week?
It was probably because the munitions didn't fit in the cargo plane with the fighter jets and armored vehicles that were due to be shipped.
Hopefully it's just a minor delay and we can get back to killing children soon 🤞
I didn't see a "scoop" here. White Horse declined to comment, Israel doesn't know, then the article lists a series of unrelated incidents which could accidentally cause a reader to mistake correlation with causation.
When Hamas raided Israel they did not think through the consequences of their actions. These types of actions will be taken personally by members of the US ruling class. The ruling class will punish Hamas and the Palestinians through the Jews. That's just how it works. Many people don't really like the way it works. The US made 1948 Israel possible and will turn a blind eye while Israel does what it has to. Most Americans don't like that, but know this is how it works.
"had to" do a genocide. it's just how this all works.
there are those of us who do not agree.
"Biden is still evil because... " In 3 2 ...
Because he approved the last 5 shipments of weapons?
Because he's knowingly obscuring war crimes on behalf of Israel?
Because he keeps vetoing overwhelmingly supported UN resolutions against Israel?
Because he refuses to acknowledge university protests as anti genocide?
Because he waited 6 months before deciding to stop funding a genocide?
Because this report is still fresh and could mean literally nothing because the White House has not responded with comment?
Good, now start with the sanctions.
Sanctions disproportionately hurt innocent civilians. Sanctioning individuals is one thing but entire nations shouldn’t be sanctioned. I thought we learned our lesson from Cuba but apparently not
Edit: for all the neolibs and righties downvoting me, this probably won’t do much to convince you. For anyone else, here’s an explanation on why sanctions are a terrible idea:
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/sanctions-economy-foreign-policy/tnamp/
Here’s an in depth look at why sanctions fail:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/2539368
Basically, the entire point of sanctions if to hurt civilians. The logic is supposed to be that they will rise up and force a political change due to being angry and, often, starving to death. But that rarely happens. We just end up torturing poor people while wealthy elites get by just fine.
You know what hurts innocent civilians even more? Bombing them.
Y’know what avoids both options? Diplomacy.
That time has passed.
It was never given a chance
Ok, time for war? Sure thing, Macnamara
The discussion was literally about sanctions. Seems like a reasonable step compared to the "war" you immediately jump to, no?
The comment stated it is too late for diplomacy. That means inflicting suffering via outright war or passive actions like sanctions. Both are attacks on innocent civilians.
Ah yes, because telling Netanyahu "please don't bomb children, that is not really nice" has worked out splendidly so far. Diplomacy without being able to put pressure on is nothing more than kindly asking.
Y'know what is the primary method to apply pressure in diplomacy? Sanctions.
Except they don’t work. Rarely have. All they do is torture innocent civilians and even then, really just the poor ones.
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/sanctions-economy-foreign-policy/tnamp/
A quick and easy summary
Isn't that part of the point? If the populace suffers, government changes are more likely
When has that actually worked?
Apartheid south Africa
You're suggesting that the end of Apartheid was caused solely by the US sanctions causing a popular revolt in South africa?
I did not mention it was solely due to sanctions. But I do think it played a role.
Arguably any revolution comes from a critical mass of the population being unhappy..
History shows it's never quite that clear cut. However that's rather irrelevant. I'm asking when have US sanctions sparked a popular revolution that overthrew a government that was sanctioned?
It’s still inhumane. It’s fine to starve people out via sanctions but not via bombings? There’s a reason people like Sanders continue to oppose sanctions
That's the inhumane condition you care about? Not the 34000 dead? Murdering journalists, doctors, food workers? None of that?
Sanctions don’t stop that. So you have a genocide and a starving populace in a second country. JFC when did Lemmy turn into a bunch of neolibs?
Neoliberals are Zionists
Neoliberals love sanctions. Leftists typically oppose suffering.
Israel is a democracy, or so we have been told.
Which means sanctions would motivate the voters to elect a new government that opposes genocide. Which is the result we want.
Therefore, sanctions are justified because they would stop Israel's genocide of Gaza by forcing Israeli voters to face the consequence of voting for genocidal fascists
Why is everyone speaking in hypotheticals/theory? Sanctions have been used in the past. Has it achieved the desired result? If we don't know, maybe start with that
Which would be better to you? You're a civilian somewhere - do you prefer to watch your livelyhood slowly being destroyed by your government or do you want a boom?
I'd assume the former gives you a chance to recognize it and do something, the latter is just boom.
False dichotomy. Sanctions don’t stop genocidal maniacs. They just ADD suffering to the world. Would I rather have 1 million people suffer or 2 million? I know the answer!
You are confirming the validity of Israeli actions against Hamas.
Howso
Think. Seriously.
Assume I can't draw the conclusions you want me to. Please explain it
The Palestinian populace is made to suffer in an attempt to produce a regime change.
Yea, it's unfortunate how ignorant, and intellectually dishonest this conversation is, so far.
When I think of sanctions today, I think of Trump putting sanctions on Venezuela, tons of leftists saying that will disproportionately hurt the people living there, the country's finances going belly up, then thousands of Venezuelan refugees looking for a new home, and then of course the US denying its involvement and refusing to help and acrually choosing to spend ridiculous amounts of money to make the situation worse for literally everyone.
Sanctions have been used many times since Cuba with varying success.
I’d say this situation calls for them to protect other innocent civilians.
Varying success politically, yes. But it always damages innocent civilians.
Some forms of sanctions but how would something like an arms embargo hurt innocent civilians?
An arms embargo restricts weapons sales and the like. Sanctions are designed to harm civilians. Suffering is the point. The (typically incorrect) idea is that suffering people will force political change. But again, that has rarely happened. People just end up suffering.
An arms embargo are a type of sanction.
Yes, but when people sanction a country, they mean widespread economic sanctions.
https://www.tookitaki.com/compliance-hub/embargo-vs-sanction-understanding-international-trade-restrictions?hs_amp=true
Aren't we currently sanctioning Russia, North Korea and Iran?
Yes, also; Afghanistan, The Balkans, Belarus, Central African Republic, China, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Hong Kong, Iraq, Lebanon, Libya, Mali, Myanmar, Nicaragua, Somalia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, Ukraine, Venezuela, Yemen, Zimbabwe and countless individuals
Great examples of suffering people! Especially North Korea.
Edit: and also cases where the sanctions did literally nothing to change those governments’ actions
It was a logistical snafu. Other shipments are not delayed. CNN
Back to your regularly scheduled Genocide.
Just the weekly gaslighting from the Biden admistration that they're not trying to help israel commit Genocide as hard as possible.
Nothing to see here everyone. Don't forget to vote for Genocide Joe in November!
Nah vote for third party or trump because trump winning will absolutely help Palestinians and totally not hurt them greatly. /s
Why would you vote for Trump?
Because your canvassing is working! /s
You spend every waking hour on this cause so I hope you're at least getting paid for it
There's is easily over 100% chance they're getting paid for it.
Biden spends every waking hour supporting this Genocide. I've said 6 months ago that the second he stops it is the second I stop defaming his Genocidal ass.
Did he stop supporting Genocide yet?
Yes everyone who disagrees with you is a lover of genocide
If you live in the US or a close ally, you are complicit in the genocide of Palestinians.
If your strategy is to get people to vote for genocide joe by checks notes being condescending towards people who feel that genocide is a red line... you are just screaming into the wind mad that your politics are a dead end that nobody believes in anymore.
Genocide Joe needs to earn my vote and stop directly supporting a genocide while simultaneously spitting in the face of those raising their voices in alarm.
You want my vote? Easy pick up the phone and tell Netanyahu it's over.
Yep will get so much better under..checks notes ..Trump
I'm not being condescending to anyone who doesn't know what they're doing
I find it especially hilarious that you pretend this is about Palestinians like you give a fuck and you can't even resist a trump style toddler insult GeNocIdE jOe
I’m sorry wait what, do you question my motives for caring about a genocide?
If you want to been seen as someone who gives a fuck about Palestinians, you should probably not spread contempt for the only way to reduce harm against them. Instead you are fueling a new era of misery for them -- while using a style of insult only used by Trump in recent years.
It's just kinda funny you think people won't notice... any of this. But sure, use your pathetic crutch, the only one you have: "if you disagree, you love genocide".
Sorry I dont know if I made this clear I am actually not the president of the US, it is Biden currently, thus it is him facilating a fueling a genocide. If Biden wants my vote he can wield his power to stop the genocide, and not at some indefinite time in the future, NOW .
This is such a toxic, dehumanizing concept... To say citizens who live in countries with corrupt governments are complicit in the actions of the very government that oppresses them is straight up evil.
Like, dude, we can't even fucking get sick over here without risking financial ruin. And you want to say we ALL are responsible for the actions of our government - even while many of us actively protest those same actions?
Get the fuck out of here with this nonsense. You are stripping away the humanity and agency of everyone in an entire country when you assert such things. This is simply evil - it's something that, ironically, corrupt governments love to do.
Yes, that does not mean I place the primary blame on citizens nor does it mean I don't appreciate the power of protest (hopefully it will be enough to force Biden to change course, for the US's sake and for Palestinians). Still, it is the US government using US citizen's tax dollars to facilitate this genocide. That makes all US citizens complicit.
The hell it does. I don't get a say in where my tax dollars I'm legally required to pay go. If someone steals your money, uses it to buy a gun, and murders someone with it, are you complicit?
Obviously directly shooting someone is the most complicit someone can be, but plenty of people leave firearms out in plain view with compatible ammo also in plain view nearby. If you leave your firearm out in plain view next to ammunition where a child could easily find it yes if someone steals that gun or picks it up and fiddles with it and ends up shooting someone, you are complicit to a significant degree for posessing such a dangerous tool and not properly safeguarding it.
The same thing goes with the U.S. military industrial complex.
Well at least we'll have Genocide Trump and the important thing - the ick of having to vote for Genocide Joe and be responsible for everything he does - will be mitigated.
I honestly believe Trump could easily thrust the entire world into another major war... The idea of dismantling NATO alone would be extremely dangerous.
Anyone with a brain can see the danger here, and separate it from the other horrors and dangers. Honestly, I think the guy here screaming about it is a bad actor, though.
Are you a Trump voter regardless of this issue? I think you are. That, or your just here parroting propaganda.
No sane person is going to let Trump win over Biden because of this. Trump has openly supported Israel and their genocide more than Biden ever has or will.
My friend, you're talking to Dimitri in St. Petersburg. He probably can't even really vote in his own countries elections.
It's always about letting Trump win with folks like you. Maybe if GJ was someone worth voting for you wouldn't have to work so hard to convince people to hold their noses and vote for corporate trash.
Yes he's the lesser of two evils, that doesn't make him good by default and the oh so earnest hand wringing of "this could be our last election" doesn't actually help your case the way you (obviously) think it does.
Were you tuned out of the last 6 months of Biden unconditionally supporting Genocide and pretending to wag his finger every week?
Blocked
It was probably because the munitions didn't fit in the cargo plane with the fighter jets and armored vehicles that were due to be shipped.
Hopefully it's just a minor delay and we can get back to killing children soon 🤞
I didn't see a "scoop" here. White Horse declined to comment, Israel doesn't know, then the article lists a series of unrelated incidents which could accidentally cause a reader to mistake correlation with causation.
Scoop?
"News" but more posh
@shish_mish
When Hamas raided Israel they did not think through the consequences of their actions. These types of actions will be taken personally by members of the US ruling class. The ruling class will punish Hamas and the Palestinians through the Jews. That's just how it works. Many people don't really like the way it works. The US made 1948 Israel possible and will turn a blind eye while Israel does what it has to. Most Americans don't like that, but know this is how it works.
"had to" do a genocide. it's just how this all works.
there are those of us who do not agree.
"Biden is still evil because... " In 3 2 ...
Because he approved the last 5 shipments of weapons?
Because he's knowingly obscuring war crimes on behalf of Israel?
Because he keeps vetoing overwhelmingly supported UN resolutions against Israel?
Because he refuses to acknowledge university protests as anti genocide?
Because he waited 6 months before deciding to stop funding a genocide?
Because this report is still fresh and could mean literally nothing because the White House has not responded with comment?
There it is. Trump is happy with your comment
This article is shit, and it's not a political thing, just a logistical error.