For 90% of driving, EVs are great in the winter. Even if it only had 100mi range, and it's so cold that it loses 40% of that, it's still better. You can get to work, do errands, and make it home to charge just fine.
Its going to warm up the cabin faster than an ICE. Not only that, but if you know when you're going to leave, you can set them to warm up ahead of time while still attached to the charger. You'll pop right in to a toasty warm cabin. Once you have that, you don't want to go back.
If the positions were swapped and ICE was a new thing, people would be writing op-eds about how cold they are for most of the drive to work.
You know that remote start is a thing for ICE vehicles too right?
It's not really the same. My last car with remote start would only run the car for ten minutes before shutting down, which was hardly enough to warm the engine up on cold days. Meanwhile my EV fully heats the cabin in about 5 minutes and will melt a few inches of snow off the car in ten.
Also, when I run errands I leave the heat/AC on basically the entire time. Can't really do that with an ICE even in places where it's not illegal to idle for extended periods of time.
Those laws stopped like four people. People warm up their ICE cars in the cold. And what kind of remote start shuts off after 10 minutes? I've had a few cars with remote start and never even heard of this. Even if that was the case, set a 10m timer on your phone and restart it.
There are vehicles that have those features. Back before I retired as a medic, the new ambulance we got had that feature from Ford, (Ford makes 90% of all certified ambulance chassis in the US). It was quite disconcerting to hear the engine shutdown and restart by itself.
I was less than impressed by it because of all the electrical devices and lights we constantly run. If it fails to restart and the batteries are dead, someone else might be also.
Yeah but I’ve only seen start ….
I went from a ln ICE car where remote start would have been a subscription item. It only started the engine, although a warm engine is the most important part of heating the car. You had to remember to set everything
My current EV has that included among many features in the app. I can schedule when the car is warm or have dedicated buttons for on and defrost. Clicking on, I have complete control over every part of the heating system, including which seats to heat.
For me it’s a much better experience, although admittedly because the car is more computerized and the manufacturer is not trying to nickel and dime me with subscriptions, and could happen in an ICE car
I'm not sure what that has to do with one car being ice and the other electric though
Exhaust fumes. Remote heating an ICE requires starting the engine, which is a dangerous thing to do unsupervised particularly when many cars are stored in garages attached to homes.
While that's true (you'd have to open the garage door with the rear facing out minimum) that's not what we're talking about in this corner of the thread. The person I'm replying to is bringing up subscription models for some reason? I'm asking what do subscription models have to do with whether a car is ice or ev?
You can, but not in a closed garage. Granted, if you had that the cabin wouldn't be quite as cold.
I mean... just open the garage door when you start the vehicle. It's not like the garage will instantly ice over.
TBF you can turn on an ICE car and let it warm up a bit before you drive it. Some ICE cars also allow you to remotely pre-start or there are after market options so you can use an app to do exactly that. Hell, Russian far east they simply leave the car on for the cold months.
It's just that it's incredibly wasteful/polluting.
Some ICE cars also allow you to remotely pre-start
But you cannot do that in the garage (unless you like huffing exhaust fumes).
You can't open a garage door remotely? I can.
Exhaust fans are not new or unapproachable tech.
They are also not a common fixture of garages.
But they are a life and death safety device in the scenario you describe. Hvac equipment.
The majority of garages I've seen have a garage door so the fumes don't just build up in the garage.
Which means that your home then has increased heat loss because the garage door is open.
Even if the garage is attached, there will be an exterior door between the garage and the house proper that will be as heat loss resistant as your front door. So I don't know how you get anymore heat loss than you would from any exterior door in the house. In fact, that door will have LESS heat loss than your front door because it's shielded from the elements that your front door isn't.
Would you have a large impact on your home from having your garage open for 15 minutes or so every day?
Eh, I don't even have a garage, and my place stays warm just fine. It's just a few minutes
What the hell are you talking about? Listen to yourself
Honestly I was half joking, but seriously don't most homes have extra insulation between the garage and the rest of the house? Are you guys heating your garages?
They do. A garage with a closed door acts like an air gap, meaning you get some extra insulation for free. It's far from perfect, as the garage door itself can't have particularly thick insulation, and the interface between the door and the frame is difficult to seal completely. Still, even an uninsulated garage with a closed door will typically be a bit warmer than the outside in the winter.
What's special about the door or do you mean just opening it? If the latter, that still won't prevent it from collecting at the ceiling and you'd better hope you remembered to open the door.
It's just that it's incredibly wasteful/polluting.
Which actually makes it illegal in some countries, too
Is illegal in my city. You'd never know it by walking around in the morning.
IIRC you can fit an ICE vehicle with an electric engine block heater which will use mains electricity to heat the water and circulate it through the engine. So you run an extension cord out to your car, leave it plugged in and turn it on half an hour before you leave.
Yep it's what people in northern Sweden have been doing for probably at least 40 years now.
Welcome to my morning walk with the dogs every morning where its colder then 35F. Every fucking car in my neighborhood does this bullshit and when there's little to no wind, all that exhaust doesn't go anywhere and just sits at ground level where I get to breathe it in for an hour. It stick at the back of my throat for the rest of the day. Add to that snowblowers after even less than an inch of snow.
I can't fucking wait for EVs to gain market share. Its fucking disgusting what my neighbors find acceptable.
The only enjoyment I find in this situation is people that back into their garages then warm up their car while still parked in their garage, spewing that exhaust into there instead of outside. I'll never understand what brain logic leads them to that solution but it's the same people doing it every morning.
Edit: I should add that the other great thing about people doing this is the rise of car thefts since some of these people also just turn their car on, leave the keys in the car, leave it unlocked and go back indoors because it's cold
Yup, this is why the practice of idling a car to heat it up is rightfully illegal in many places.
It's not good for the car, either. Cars aren't meant to idle; cars are made to have all fluids moving & the car rolling down the road.
I treat my car to a gentle warm-up when it's cold outside; I start the car & start driving, but only 20-30 mph for the first 5-8 minutes. All the components of the car are gently being used, are slowly warming up, together. I think my car runs better for it.
My grandpa would do that back in the sixties. Luckily some things do change.
The peak version of this that’s kind of sold me is you can pre-condition in the garage. Like, why wouldn’t anyone want to do that.
The whole thing about them losing range in the cold isn't even really true unless you can't precondition the battery. Which might be the case for people who don't charge at home, but at the very least it's a statement which requires qualification.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I have a Model 3 and use it as my daily driver but have also done at least 4 cross country trips, two of which were in summer, one in spring, and one in winter.
For daily driving I can absolutely tell a difference in my range in the winter time and I do have a charger at home and car set to precondition. Preconditioning does make a big difference but it doesn’t completely offset the cold. Furthermore when it’s time to drive home from work I either have to drive on a cold battery or try to precondition without a charger.
During the recent cold snap (single digit Fahrenheit temps) I did an experiment with this where I started trying to precondition two hours before I left work. I just wanted to see how much battery it would take to precondition and ultimately test if that would be better than driving home cold. After two hours the battery was still not preconditioned sufficiently and I had used 20% of my battery. I would definitely have been better to just drive on a cold battery.
On long distance drives I have also found that the range suffers noticeably during winter weather. On my cross country winter trip it seemed like had about 15-20% less range between charges. And since I was driving all day and supercharging, the battery was fully conditioned the whole time. Didn’t prevent decreased range in the cold though.
I mean I do the same 100 mile trip every 2-3 weeks and I get almost exactly the same WH/mi year round as long as I'm not cranking the heat.
It's very hard to compare range on separate trips, since elevation change is by far the biggest factor.
Preconditioning only gets it ready for charging. It does almost nothing for driving except to allow the regen to work.
Lithium delivers fine below freezing, but it needs to be above freezing to accept a charge.
When you preconditioned at work for 2 hours all it did was waste battery.
XC trips when you put a supercharger as destination, it will automatically precondition to get ready to charge. And preconditioning takes away from your range.
This is just plain wrong.
We have two EV's in Norway (cold as fuck at times) and there is no way to manage the same range in winter as in summer.
Sure you can mitigate some of it by preheating both the cabin and the battery, but the heater working harder to maintain the temperature when it's cold outside and the added friction of driving on snow is always going to be there
The 60s era vws were notorious for never managing to produce any cabin heat.
That's because of the design of the heater the heater actually blew air across the exhaust manifolds and then into the cabin it was frequent for that plumbing to end up with holes in it letting all that heat Escape but also letting exhaust gases into your cabin So Not only would it freeze you out but it tried to kill you and asphyxiate you with carbon monoxide
Yeah, which made them just fabulous for our favorite use for them at the time: driving around drinking. Pack that bug full of teen agers smoking and drinking and freezing and basically getting CO poisoning until somebody got sick and we all had to do an emergency exit drill.
Only if you didn't get the extra gasoline heater that mounted under trunk hood, I owned a 1965 Beetle in my youth. Those would cook you well done in minutes in the coldest temperatures. Turns out it's hard to get good heat from an air cooled engine.
That ain't getting me to town for groceries at that rate.
I wanted to buy an EV, but after doing a serious evaluation of where I live and what I need to drive for distances and road conditions plus the temperatures I need it to work in, a pure EV is a no go for me. I could get by with a hybrid most of the time. But winter time road conditions can make it pretty iffy for winter and spring and uncomfortable number of times to make even that choice dicey.
Then you are truly a margin case and need to stop shoveling your irrelevant opinion into a greater conversation.
These people that come along and go "EV's are no good cos I live 50 + miles from the nearest shop and I'm not willing to pause and let my vehicle charge for 20 mins when I am there." They are taking the piss out of everyone by butting into conversation and making their demands.
There is a noticeable non-zero number of people who fall into that category. And you cannot simply handwave them away or the fact that for many the cost of purchase an EV simply isn't possible yet or the infrastructure isn't there to support such a purchase.
And YOU willfully choose to ignore those people and situations. You are no better than the clowns that state "EVs are stupid".
For 90% of driving, EVs are great in the winter. Even if it only had 100mi range, and it's so cold that it loses 40% of that, it's still better. You can get to work, do errands, and make it home to charge just fine.
Its going to warm up the cabin faster than an ICE. Not only that, but if you know when you're going to leave, you can set them to warm up ahead of time while still attached to the charger. You'll pop right in to a toasty warm cabin. Once you have that, you don't want to go back.
If the positions were swapped and ICE was a new thing, people would be writing op-eds about how cold they are for most of the drive to work.
You know that remote start is a thing for ICE vehicles too right?
It's not really the same. My last car with remote start would only run the car for ten minutes before shutting down, which was hardly enough to warm the engine up on cold days. Meanwhile my EV fully heats the cabin in about 5 minutes and will melt a few inches of snow off the car in ten.
Also, when I run errands I leave the heat/AC on basically the entire time. Can't really do that with an ICE even in places where it's not illegal to idle for extended periods of time.
Those laws stopped like four people. People warm up their ICE cars in the cold. And what kind of remote start shuts off after 10 minutes? I've had a few cars with remote start and never even heard of this. Even if that was the case, set a 10m timer on your phone and restart it.
There are vehicles that have those features. Back before I retired as a medic, the new ambulance we got had that feature from Ford, (Ford makes 90% of all certified ambulance chassis in the US). It was quite disconcerting to hear the engine shutdown and restart by itself.
I was less than impressed by it because of all the electrical devices and lights we constantly run. If it fails to restart and the batteries are dead, someone else might be also.
Yeah but I’ve only seen start ….
I went from a ln ICE car where remote start would have been a subscription item. It only started the engine, although a warm engine is the most important part of heating the car. You had to remember to set everything
My current EV has that included among many features in the app. I can schedule when the car is warm or have dedicated buttons for on and defrost. Clicking on, I have complete control over every part of the heating system, including which seats to heat.
For me it’s a much better experience, although admittedly because the car is more computerized and the manufacturer is not trying to nickel and dime me with subscriptions, and could happen in an ICE car
I'm not sure what that has to do with one car being ice and the other electric though
Exhaust fumes. Remote heating an ICE requires starting the engine, which is a dangerous thing to do unsupervised particularly when many cars are stored in garages attached to homes.
While that's true (you'd have to open the garage door with the rear facing out minimum) that's not what we're talking about in this corner of the thread. The person I'm replying to is bringing up subscription models for some reason? I'm asking what do subscription models have to do with whether a car is ice or ev?
You can, but not in a closed garage. Granted, if you had that the cabin wouldn't be quite as cold.
I mean... just open the garage door when you start the vehicle. It's not like the garage will instantly ice over.
TBF you can turn on an ICE car and let it warm up a bit before you drive it. Some ICE cars also allow you to remotely pre-start or there are after market options so you can use an app to do exactly that. Hell, Russian far east they simply leave the car on for the cold months.
It's just that it's incredibly wasteful/polluting.
But you cannot do that in the garage (unless you like huffing exhaust fumes).
You can't open a garage door remotely? I can.
Exhaust fans are not new or unapproachable tech.
They are also not a common fixture of garages.
But they are a life and death safety device in the scenario you describe. Hvac equipment.
The majority of garages I've seen have a garage door so the fumes don't just build up in the garage.
Which means that your home then has increased heat loss because the garage door is open.
Even if the garage is attached, there will be an exterior door between the garage and the house proper that will be as heat loss resistant as your front door. So I don't know how you get anymore heat loss than you would from any exterior door in the house. In fact, that door will have LESS heat loss than your front door because it's shielded from the elements that your front door isn't.
Would you have a large impact on your home from having your garage open for 15 minutes or so every day?
Eh, I don't even have a garage, and my place stays warm just fine. It's just a few minutes
What the hell are you talking about? Listen to yourself
Honestly I was half joking, but seriously don't most homes have extra insulation between the garage and the rest of the house? Are you guys heating your garages?
They do. A garage with a closed door acts like an air gap, meaning you get some extra insulation for free. It's far from perfect, as the garage door itself can't have particularly thick insulation, and the interface between the door and the frame is difficult to seal completely. Still, even an uninsulated garage with a closed door will typically be a bit warmer than the outside in the winter.
What's special about the door or do you mean just opening it? If the latter, that still won't prevent it from collecting at the ceiling and you'd better hope you remembered to open the door.
Which actually makes it illegal in some countries, too
Is illegal in my city. You'd never know it by walking around in the morning.
IIRC you can fit an ICE vehicle with an electric engine block heater which will use mains electricity to heat the water and circulate it through the engine. So you run an extension cord out to your car, leave it plugged in and turn it on half an hour before you leave.
Yep it's what people in northern Sweden have been doing for probably at least 40 years now.
Welcome to my morning walk with the dogs every morning where its colder then 35F. Every fucking car in my neighborhood does this bullshit and when there's little to no wind, all that exhaust doesn't go anywhere and just sits at ground level where I get to breathe it in for an hour. It stick at the back of my throat for the rest of the day. Add to that snowblowers after even less than an inch of snow.
I can't fucking wait for EVs to gain market share. Its fucking disgusting what my neighbors find acceptable.
The only enjoyment I find in this situation is people that back into their garages then warm up their car while still parked in their garage, spewing that exhaust into there instead of outside. I'll never understand what brain logic leads them to that solution but it's the same people doing it every morning.
Edit: I should add that the other great thing about people doing this is the rise of car thefts since some of these people also just turn their car on, leave the keys in the car, leave it unlocked and go back indoors because it's cold
Yup, this is why the practice of idling a car to heat it up is rightfully illegal in many places.
It's not good for the car, either. Cars aren't meant to idle; cars are made to have all fluids moving & the car rolling down the road.
I treat my car to a gentle warm-up when it's cold outside; I start the car & start driving, but only 20-30 mph for the first 5-8 minutes. All the components of the car are gently being used, are slowly warming up, together. I think my car runs better for it.
My grandpa would do that back in the sixties. Luckily some things do change.
The peak version of this that’s kind of sold me is you can pre-condition in the garage. Like, why wouldn’t anyone want to do that.
The whole thing about them losing range in the cold isn't even really true unless you can't precondition the battery. Which might be the case for people who don't charge at home, but at the very least it's a statement which requires qualification.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this. I have a Model 3 and use it as my daily driver but have also done at least 4 cross country trips, two of which were in summer, one in spring, and one in winter.
For daily driving I can absolutely tell a difference in my range in the winter time and I do have a charger at home and car set to precondition. Preconditioning does make a big difference but it doesn’t completely offset the cold. Furthermore when it’s time to drive home from work I either have to drive on a cold battery or try to precondition without a charger.
During the recent cold snap (single digit Fahrenheit temps) I did an experiment with this where I started trying to precondition two hours before I left work. I just wanted to see how much battery it would take to precondition and ultimately test if that would be better than driving home cold. After two hours the battery was still not preconditioned sufficiently and I had used 20% of my battery. I would definitely have been better to just drive on a cold battery.
On long distance drives I have also found that the range suffers noticeably during winter weather. On my cross country winter trip it seemed like had about 15-20% less range between charges. And since I was driving all day and supercharging, the battery was fully conditioned the whole time. Didn’t prevent decreased range in the cold though.
I mean I do the same 100 mile trip every 2-3 weeks and I get almost exactly the same WH/mi year round as long as I'm not cranking the heat.
It's very hard to compare range on separate trips, since elevation change is by far the biggest factor.
Preconditioning only gets it ready for charging. It does almost nothing for driving except to allow the regen to work.
Lithium delivers fine below freezing, but it needs to be above freezing to accept a charge.
When you preconditioned at work for 2 hours all it did was waste battery.
XC trips when you put a supercharger as destination, it will automatically precondition to get ready to charge. And preconditioning takes away from your range.
The issue is you have a Tesla
This is just plain wrong.
We have two EV's in Norway (cold as fuck at times) and there is no way to manage the same range in winter as in summer.
Sure you can mitigate some of it by preheating both the cabin and the battery, but the heater working harder to maintain the temperature when it's cold outside and the added friction of driving on snow is always going to be there
The 60s era vws were notorious for never managing to produce any cabin heat.
That's because of the design of the heater the heater actually blew air across the exhaust manifolds and then into the cabin it was frequent for that plumbing to end up with holes in it letting all that heat Escape but also letting exhaust gases into your cabin So Not only would it freeze you out but it tried to kill you and asphyxiate you with carbon monoxide
Yeah, which made them just fabulous for our favorite use for them at the time: driving around drinking. Pack that bug full of teen agers smoking and drinking and freezing and basically getting CO poisoning until somebody got sick and we all had to do an emergency exit drill.
Only if you didn't get the extra gasoline heater that mounted under trunk hood, I owned a 1965 Beetle in my youth. Those would cook you well done in minutes in the coldest temperatures. Turns out it's hard to get good heat from an air cooled engine.
That ain't getting me to town for groceries at that rate.
I wanted to buy an EV, but after doing a serious evaluation of where I live and what I need to drive for distances and road conditions plus the temperatures I need it to work in, a pure EV is a no go for me. I could get by with a hybrid most of the time. But winter time road conditions can make it pretty iffy for winter and spring and uncomfortable number of times to make even that choice dicey.
Then you are truly a margin case and need to stop shoveling your irrelevant opinion into a greater conversation.
These people that come along and go "EV's are no good cos I live 50 + miles from the nearest shop and I'm not willing to pause and let my vehicle charge for 20 mins when I am there." They are taking the piss out of everyone by butting into conversation and making their demands.
There is a noticeable non-zero number of people who fall into that category. And you cannot simply handwave them away or the fact that for many the cost of purchase an EV simply isn't possible yet or the infrastructure isn't there to support such a purchase.
And YOU willfully choose to ignore those people and situations. You are no better than the clowns that state "EVs are stupid".