I wonder if others on the jury helped them see the light. Or maybe the nodding and smiling was sarcasm, or even intentionally trolling Trump. Fun to think about.
The thing is, you can sometimes get through to these Trump supporters if you can deprogram them from their echo-chamber... That requires very long conversations, an expose of facts, dismantling of their fallacies, and keeping them away from right-wing propaganda and peer pressure for an extended period of time.
... Which just so happens to be what jurors go through.
That's a nice wholesome take. Reminds me of this man:
Doing this right now with my in-laws who are from India and deeply Modi-fied.
Six weeks is all it would take to undo years of brainwashing from every direction? I doubt it.
Well, education in general..... Which is why they are so absolutely desperate to dismantle our education system.
I honestly don't think lawmakers put that level of thought into dismantling education. Votes are the only goal here.
Somewhere along the line, it was Limbaugh for me, conservatives noticed that educated people tend to vote liberal. Well hell, how do we explain this?!
The pundits launched a full-frontal attack on education and those "ivory tower liberals". Who the fuck are these people to tell me how to think when I got the Bible and my gut feelings?!
I watched this unfold. No one talked down on education in the 70s and 80s, nothing like the conservatives do now anyway. Then... Remember Rick Santorum baggin' on Obama for having 2 degrees? While Santorum had 3. FFS, Obama taught Constitutional law at Harvard and the GOP acted like that made him less able to judge Constitutional matters.
Now "education bad" gets votes, that easy. I don't think there was a real plan. As always, the GOP rolls with what works emotionally. (While the Democrats think they can win on logical arguments.)
After Sputnik went up, there was a giant call for the US to push more kids into STEM. Kids are always a political issue.
Heck, watch 'The Music Man' if you don't beleive me!
We don't need more kids to go into those fields we need more funding for those fields. If you want depressing look up what happens to the bulk of people with physics, or geologist, or chemistry undergrad degrees.
Back before Brown vs. Board of Education, US high school could produce kids who'd had four years of science, math, history, foreign languages, and could play an instrument. When they realized that they'd have to educate all the citizens to that level they dropped the level, hoping the colleges would train the leaders of tomorrow
Friend is heading to the Galapagos Islands for a vacation. He was appalled because none of the young people he talked to had any idea what they were.
In the defense of those folks, the knowledge of what the Galapagos are is pretty irrelevant unless you are into evolutionary biology or random islands for vacations. And even on thr vacation thing id rather go to Svalbard personally.
Shouldn't have to be "into" evolutionary biology. The foundational events of Charles Darwin's early research into evolution are basic biology. Darwin's finches should be middle school education along with Punnett squares and the scientific method.
If it makes it any better I was thinking of some more modern instances of folks replicating Darwins finches or atleast observing the same thing. Also I associate darwin with barnacles and inbred tomato. I have been brain poisoned by too much info.
At one time, not so long ago, Darwin was common knowledge. Something that you'd expect an intelligent 10 year old to know about. "Darwin" was one of the X-Men!
It could very well be a case of “Never meet your childhood heroes”.
Trump probably acted like a spoiled brat and the juror saw it first hand.
Trump did; it's a matter of public record. He violated court instructions about blabbing to the media ten times, and was held in contempt by the judge twice.
He repeatedly make false and misleading statements about the trial, the judge, the witnesses, and even the jury on social media and to the press in the entrance hall of the court building itself. The idiot just couldn't stop himself.
Had he been a regular citizen instead of a former president, he would have almost certainly done jail time just for his behavior during the trial.
*smelled
That's a good point.
Six weeks plus 11 people worth of peer pressure all getting increasingly pissed off at you for wasting their time with your obstinate dumbassery, I guess.
There was an article around here this week, and I didn't read further about it, saying it only takes a few days off FB to get people to turn around on conspiracy theories.
I guess lies take constant reinforcement?
Six weeks in a different environment is a long time. Talk to people about their first six weeks on a new job; or at boot camp; or even summer camp.
I’ve had some progress with a local trumpet, but he has too many friends pulling him back for the effects to last long.
He snaps out of it when I point out how capitalism (billionaires) is often the problem, or how the Rs block immigration reform. He’s been able to see some truth now and then. But later he turns his TV on and it’s all Hunter Biden’s fault for him again. Also for some reason we’re all gonna eat bugs lately.
The bugs thing is cause they dont understand synthetic meat. Its based off of an older conspiracy from the 90s though.
Yeah, I just said “you mean lab grown meat? if tasteslike hamburger and doesn’t have to be full of antibiotics (and methane) I’m for it.”
He actually liked the idea of no antibiotics (fits with his doctors bad mindset).
Fact is, sustaining an increasing population is going to involve using insects as food.
My understanding is that juries in America dont really deliberate on a verdict or a sentence. Thats up to the judge.
Instead, I believe they're presented with all the facts and arguments, then determine based on that information whether or not the the prosecution's claims hold up.
So its more of a "based on the facts you have been presented with, do you think the defendant did X", rather than "should the defendant be punished for this crime?"
Most Trump supporters understand that he's a criminal, but believe that his actions are in service of the greater good. So in a situation like this the distinction between "do the facts line up" and "should he be punished" is an important one.
I was on a jury in Texas in 2019 and we were tasked with both.
First part: Based on the facts you have been presented, do you think defendant did X?
If yes
Second part: You have determined that defendant did X. Now determine the punishment
That second part was by far the more difficult of the two
The judge gets to decide the sentence here.
The judge that Trump has insulted & threatened for the past 7 weeks.
I know. The original post sounded pretty universal so I was giving an example of how some states do it differently.
What was the process like of determining the punishment? I didn't know that was a potential duty that juries could be tasked with.
There's kinda like a second trial where they have friends and family of the defendant and victim come and tell you what s great guy he is or how much they miss the victim etc.
Then the judge lays out the range of possible punishments, including when parole might be available. We're not allowed to consider when parole might be available though.
Then we all go into the deliberation room and duke it out. When we were done, we go back into the court room and hand the judge the punishment which he then read as sentencing.
The punishment range given us was anything from two to ninety nine years or life, so basically, "do what you want you crazy jurors".
My understanding is that juries in America dont really deliberate on a verdict or a sentence. Thats up to the judge.
in a jury trial, the judge is there to manage the process and keep it fair. The prosecution presents their case, and the defense tries to poke holes and cause 'reasonable doubt'.
yes, there are controls in place, like instructions on what may and may not be considered during deliberations, and yes, that restricts the jury's decision significantly. For example, they're not allowed to consider that Trump is a lying asshole who stole nuclear secrets when he left office, raped E Jean Carol or tried to lead an insurrection on jan 6 to overturn the government.
None of that really matters to this case. But the 12 jurors were ultimately the ones deciding that guilt or innocence or whatever. And they did so unanimously. The judge didn't make the decision and tell them to come to a guilty verdict. (and the judge can only overrule such a verdict if it's blatantly obvious they fucked it up. usually at that point they start over with a new trial and a new jury.)
Close, but jury instructions are very particular.
"This is the exact law and how it works. Did the defendant run afoul of this law?"
A competent judge and prosecutor forces the whole show to stay exactly in those bounds.
It's... complicated, but sort of yes.
A jury isn't strictly bound by the facts. For example, a jury might feel that a law is unjust, and refuse to find someone guilty (called "jury nullification"). This is good and bad, such as by truly refusing to find guilt under an unjust law, but it has also been used by racist juries to let a white man accused of lynching a black man go free. And even without overwhelming evidence, a jury might find someone guilty, because "everyone knows they did it", or something like that. Or because they did something and they can't exactly prove that or another charge.
And then even after the jury returns their verdict, either the defense or prosecution may move to set aside the verdict. Those motions are rarely granted, but they happen.
I don't think a judge can overturn a jury verdict on their own authority.
Of course, all of this varies by jurisdiction. Federal law and each state's laws have their own quirks, and there are differences in civil and criminal law as well.
If that's what actually happened, I wonder if those things stick when he re-enters civilian life to go back to having Fox News blaring 24/7.
That's exactly the kind of thing a New Yorker would do. "Oh, yeah, sure, I'm on your side, buddy, we got so much in common."
Hahahaha, I very much want to believe this is what happened.
It’s my head cannon, don’t care if it’s true
I seem to recall seeing an infographic (uncertain of its provenance) indicating that one juror listed the NY Post as a frequent news source. That guy's presence on the jury certainly had me concerned.
The infographic I saw said one juror got their news from only Truth Social and Twitter.
I live in New York. I saw the Post's headline yesterday. "Injustice!"
There was one juror who got their news from Truth Social and Twitter so I am guessing they were not trolling.
I would tell you I got my news from God if it meant I could put a nail in Trump’s coffin ;)
One of the jurors followed Trump on truth social, it was maybe him?
Sometimes i flip on fox just to see what the monkeys are up to today.
Dollars to donuts, that guy got un-brainwashed during the trial & isn't voting for Trump now.
Which is actually pretty hopeful. Once the dude got out of a media ecosystem telling him what to think and feel, and he was presented with the facts in an irrefutable way, he did what was right.
Right-wing media is all about creating an information bubble keeping inconvenient truths out.
"no one is the villain of their own story."
I strongly believe that the majority of Trump supporters (maybe not the supremely rabid ones) truly believe that they're doing the right thing based on the propaganda they're exposed to.
I live in a rather red area of my state and while I definitely know racists and selfish assholes (this is NY so they're everywhere) most of the Republicans i know are generally good people that are just submerged in a propaganda ecosystem. Hell one of my coworkers is absolutely a way better person than I am: volunteering and giving to charity, giving a lot of their time to others, but they're also a die hard Republican.
If anyone checks my history I say this a thousand times: I FUCKING HATE PROPAGANDISTS they are a cancer on society...
And right wing/conservative policies are all about creating a class of people in society who can be exploited and abused
Also forcing them to communicate with real people in real life makes a HUGE difference. Combine those two things and you have a potentially powerful force of deprogramming.
It's almost like forcing the Germans to walk through the camps after they were liberated... Except hopefully before it gets to that point.
God if that's all it takes.... Stick each of these fuckers in a tiny room with 11 of their peers and FORCE them to listen to nothing but cold hard facts for hours a day, for weeks, and then discuss them in person until they can all unanimously agree on our collective reality...
Maybe it's doable? God, I hate the idea of "re-education," it has such an icky, authoritarian connotation. But it's literally what these people need. Except in this case it isn't about inundating them with propaganda, it's literally just reality and irrefutable facts.
It's all about group membership.
If the people on the jury started to see themselves as a coherent group, then they can change minds and reach consensus. People listen to other people in their in group way more.
If you try to talk to a maga person, and they see you as a Outsider, you're going to have a very difficult time getting them to listen to anything you say.
We all do this to some extent.
It's just really bad currently that the maga people will look to their group for consensus reality, and they have mostly bad ideas.
I don't know how to dismantle that group.
You can't forget that any true nut jobs were weeded out during jury selection.
We don't have nearly enough sane people to do that for everyone in his cult.
Amazing, when you sit people down and force them to think, they tend to come to their senses.
I'm not even slightly surprised that Trump doesn't know how jury trials work.
He's most likely referring to Juror #2 who, iirc, is a man who follows Trump on Truth Social and also watches Fox 'News'.
At this point, I would love again like to publicly apologize to Juror #2 for the aspersions I cast on his character during the trial. I'm sorry, dude; you looked at the evidence and went where it led you.
I mean, it could also be that he was more self-interested than principled and caved against his beliefs so he could go home.
Retracting previous aspersions is warranted because we don't know which it was and should give him the benefit of the doubt... but we don't know.
Or that he was faking.
Brilliant move by the juror. Getting crushed is just that much worse when you have some hope.
(although I highly doubt this was a calculation by the juror and more Trump reading into something that was never there)
Surprise, motherfucker.
Some fries mother fucker?
Sunrise, motherfucker
👔👔👔👔👔👔 Motherfucker
Thick thighs mother fucker.
All rise motherfucker
Super sized mother fucker.
he did a little trolling lol
I was very surprised by this part of the article:
Trump made careful effort not to mention or criticize the jury in a press conference on Friday morning.
Someone must have hammered home how if any harm comes to a jury member that can be linked back to something he said, then he'll be in the shit
If only that person could be with him every day of his life...maybe he wouldn't be half as annoying
I guarantee they were the truth social user
If he believed that he filled a 20,000 capacity venue with 100,000 people, hell believe that he has at least 1 fanatic in the jury.
I wonder if others on the jury helped them see the light. Or maybe the nodding and smiling was sarcasm, or even intentionally trolling Trump. Fun to think about.
The thing is, you can sometimes get through to these Trump supporters if you can deprogram them from their echo-chamber... That requires very long conversations, an expose of facts, dismantling of their fallacies, and keeping them away from right-wing propaganda and peer pressure for an extended period of time.
... Which just so happens to be what jurors go through.
That's a nice wholesome take. Reminds me of this man:
https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes
Thanks for sharing, hadn't read this before!
Doing this right now with my in-laws who are from India and deeply Modi-fied.
Six weeks is all it would take to undo years of brainwashing from every direction? I doubt it.
Well, education in general..... Which is why they are so absolutely desperate to dismantle our education system.
I honestly don't think lawmakers put that level of thought into dismantling education. Votes are the only goal here.
Somewhere along the line, it was Limbaugh for me, conservatives noticed that educated people tend to vote liberal. Well hell, how do we explain this?!
The pundits launched a full-frontal attack on education and those "ivory tower liberals". Who the fuck are these people to tell me how to think when I got the Bible and my gut feelings?!
I watched this unfold. No one talked down on education in the 70s and 80s, nothing like the conservatives do now anyway. Then... Remember Rick Santorum baggin' on Obama for having 2 degrees? While Santorum had 3. FFS, Obama taught Constitutional law at Harvard and the GOP acted like that made him less able to judge Constitutional matters.
Now "education bad" gets votes, that easy. I don't think there was a real plan. As always, the GOP rolls with what works emotionally. (While the Democrats think they can win on logical arguments.)
After Sputnik went up, there was a giant call for the US to push more kids into STEM. Kids are always a political issue.
Heck, watch 'The Music Man' if you don't beleive me!
We don't need more kids to go into those fields we need more funding for those fields. If you want depressing look up what happens to the bulk of people with physics, or geologist, or chemistry undergrad degrees.
Back before Brown vs. Board of Education, US high school could produce kids who'd had four years of science, math, history, foreign languages, and could play an instrument. When they realized that they'd have to educate all the citizens to that level they dropped the level, hoping the colleges would train the leaders of tomorrow
Friend is heading to the Galapagos Islands for a vacation. He was appalled because none of the young people he talked to had any idea what they were.
In the defense of those folks, the knowledge of what the Galapagos are is pretty irrelevant unless you are into evolutionary biology or random islands for vacations. And even on thr vacation thing id rather go to Svalbard personally.
Shouldn't have to be "into" evolutionary biology. The foundational events of Charles Darwin's early research into evolution are basic biology. Darwin's finches should be middle school education along with Punnett squares and the scientific method.
If it makes it any better I was thinking of some more modern instances of folks replicating Darwins finches or atleast observing the same thing. Also I associate darwin with barnacles and inbred tomato. I have been brain poisoned by too much info.
At one time, not so long ago, Darwin was common knowledge. Something that you'd expect an intelligent 10 year old to know about. "Darwin" was one of the X-Men!
It could very well be a case of “Never meet your childhood heroes”. Trump probably acted like a spoiled brat and the juror saw it first hand.
Trump did; it's a matter of public record. He violated court instructions about blabbing to the media ten times, and was held in contempt by the judge twice.
He repeatedly make false and misleading statements about the trial, the judge, the witnesses, and even the jury on social media and to the press in the entrance hall of the court building itself. The idiot just couldn't stop himself.
Had he been a regular citizen instead of a former president, he would have almost certainly done jail time just for his behavior during the trial.
*smelled
That's a good point.
Six weeks plus 11 people worth of peer pressure all getting increasingly pissed off at you for wasting their time with your obstinate dumbassery, I guess.
There was an article around here this week, and I didn't read further about it, saying it only takes a few days off FB to get people to turn around on conspiracy theories.
I guess lies take constant reinforcement?
Six weeks in a different environment is a long time. Talk to people about their first six weeks on a new job; or at boot camp; or even summer camp.
I’ve had some progress with a local trumpet, but he has too many friends pulling him back for the effects to last long.
He snaps out of it when I point out how capitalism (billionaires) is often the problem, or how the Rs block immigration reform. He’s been able to see some truth now and then. But later he turns his TV on and it’s all Hunter Biden’s fault for him again. Also for some reason we’re all gonna eat bugs lately.
The bugs thing is cause they dont understand synthetic meat. Its based off of an older conspiracy from the 90s though.
Yeah, I just said “you mean lab grown meat? if tasteslike hamburger and doesn’t have to be full of antibiotics (and methane) I’m for it.”
He actually liked the idea of no antibiotics (fits with his doctors bad mindset).
Fact is, sustaining an increasing population is going to involve using insects as food.
My understanding is that juries in America dont really deliberate on a verdict or a sentence. Thats up to the judge.
Instead, I believe they're presented with all the facts and arguments, then determine based on that information whether or not the the prosecution's claims hold up.
So its more of a "based on the facts you have been presented with, do you think the defendant did X", rather than "should the defendant be punished for this crime?"
Most Trump supporters understand that he's a criminal, but believe that his actions are in service of the greater good. So in a situation like this the distinction between "do the facts line up" and "should he be punished" is an important one.
I was on a jury in Texas in 2019 and we were tasked with both.
First part: Based on the facts you have been presented, do you think defendant did X?
If yes
Second part: You have determined that defendant did X. Now determine the punishment
That second part was by far the more difficult of the two
The judge gets to decide the sentence here.
The judge that Trump has insulted & threatened for the past 7 weeks.
I know. The original post sounded pretty universal so I was giving an example of how some states do it differently.
What was the process like of determining the punishment? I didn't know that was a potential duty that juries could be tasked with.
There's kinda like a second trial where they have friends and family of the defendant and victim come and tell you what s great guy he is or how much they miss the victim etc.
Then the judge lays out the range of possible punishments, including when parole might be available. We're not allowed to consider when parole might be available though.
Then we all go into the deliberation room and duke it out. When we were done, we go back into the court room and hand the judge the punishment which he then read as sentencing.
The punishment range given us was anything from two to ninety nine years or life, so basically, "do what you want you crazy jurors".
in a jury trial, the judge is there to manage the process and keep it fair. The prosecution presents their case, and the defense tries to poke holes and cause 'reasonable doubt'.
yes, there are controls in place, like instructions on what may and may not be considered during deliberations, and yes, that restricts the jury's decision significantly. For example, they're not allowed to consider that Trump is a lying asshole who stole nuclear secrets when he left office, raped E Jean Carol or tried to lead an insurrection on jan 6 to overturn the government.
None of that really matters to this case. But the 12 jurors were ultimately the ones deciding that guilt or innocence or whatever. And they did so unanimously. The judge didn't make the decision and tell them to come to a guilty verdict. (and the judge can only overrule such a verdict if it's blatantly obvious they fucked it up. usually at that point they start over with a new trial and a new jury.)
Close, but jury instructions are very particular.
"This is the exact law and how it works. Did the defendant run afoul of this law?"
A competent judge and prosecutor forces the whole show to stay exactly in those bounds.
It's... complicated, but sort of yes.
A jury isn't strictly bound by the facts. For example, a jury might feel that a law is unjust, and refuse to find someone guilty (called "jury nullification"). This is good and bad, such as by truly refusing to find guilt under an unjust law, but it has also been used by racist juries to let a white man accused of lynching a black man go free. And even without overwhelming evidence, a jury might find someone guilty, because "everyone knows they did it", or something like that. Or because they did something and they can't exactly prove that or another charge.
And then even after the jury returns their verdict, either the defense or prosecution may move to set aside the verdict. Those motions are rarely granted, but they happen.
I don't think a judge can overturn a jury verdict on their own authority.
Of course, all of this varies by jurisdiction. Federal law and each state's laws have their own quirks, and there are differences in civil and criminal law as well.
If that's what actually happened, I wonder if those things stick when he re-enters civilian life to go back to having Fox News blaring 24/7.
That's exactly the kind of thing a New Yorker would do. "Oh, yeah, sure, I'm on your side, buddy, we got so much in common."
Hahahaha, I very much want to believe this is what happened.
It’s my head cannon, don’t care if it’s true
I seem to recall seeing an infographic (uncertain of its provenance) indicating that one juror listed the NY Post as a frequent news source. That guy's presence on the jury certainly had me concerned.
The infographic I saw said one juror got their news from only Truth Social and Twitter.
I live in New York. I saw the Post's headline yesterday. "Injustice!"
There was one juror who got their news from Truth Social and Twitter so I am guessing they were not trolling.
I would tell you I got my news from God if it meant I could put a nail in Trump’s coffin ;)
One of the jurors followed Trump on truth social, it was maybe him?
Sometimes i flip on fox just to see what the monkeys are up to today.
Dollars to donuts, that guy got un-brainwashed during the trial & isn't voting for Trump now.
Which is actually pretty hopeful. Once the dude got out of a media ecosystem telling him what to think and feel, and he was presented with the facts in an irrefutable way, he did what was right.
Right-wing media is all about creating an information bubble keeping inconvenient truths out.
"no one is the villain of their own story."
I strongly believe that the majority of Trump supporters (maybe not the supremely rabid ones) truly believe that they're doing the right thing based on the propaganda they're exposed to.
I live in a rather red area of my state and while I definitely know racists and selfish assholes (this is NY so they're everywhere) most of the Republicans i know are generally good people that are just submerged in a propaganda ecosystem. Hell one of my coworkers is absolutely a way better person than I am: volunteering and giving to charity, giving a lot of their time to others, but they're also a die hard Republican.
If anyone checks my history I say this a thousand times: I FUCKING HATE PROPAGANDISTS they are a cancer on society...
And right wing/conservative policies are all about creating a class of people in society who can be exploited and abused
Also forcing them to communicate with real people in real life makes a HUGE difference. Combine those two things and you have a potentially powerful force of deprogramming.
It's almost like forcing the Germans to walk through the camps after they were liberated... Except hopefully before it gets to that point.
God if that's all it takes.... Stick each of these fuckers in a tiny room with 11 of their peers and FORCE them to listen to nothing but cold hard facts for hours a day, for weeks, and then discuss them in person until they can all unanimously agree on our collective reality...
Maybe it's doable? God, I hate the idea of "re-education," it has such an icky, authoritarian connotation. But it's literally what these people need. Except in this case it isn't about inundating them with propaganda, it's literally just reality and irrefutable facts.
It's all about group membership.
If the people on the jury started to see themselves as a coherent group, then they can change minds and reach consensus. People listen to other people in their in group way more.
If you try to talk to a maga person, and they see you as a Outsider, you're going to have a very difficult time getting them to listen to anything you say.
We all do this to some extent.
It's just really bad currently that the maga people will look to their group for consensus reality, and they have mostly bad ideas.
I don't know how to dismantle that group.
You can't forget that any true nut jobs were weeded out during jury selection.
We don't have nearly enough sane people to do that for everyone in his cult.
Amazing, when you sit people down and force them to think, they tend to come to their senses.
I'm not even slightly surprised that Trump doesn't know how jury trials work.
He's most likely referring to Juror #2 who, iirc, is a man who follows Trump on Truth Social and also watches Fox 'News'.
At this point, I would love again like to publicly apologize to Juror #2 for the aspersions I cast on his character during the trial. I'm sorry, dude; you looked at the evidence and went where it led you.
I mean, it could also be that he was more self-interested than principled and caved against his beliefs so he could go home.
Retracting previous aspersions is warranted because we don't know which it was and should give him the benefit of the doubt... but we don't know.
Or that he was faking.
Brilliant move by the juror. Getting crushed is just that much worse when you have some hope.
(although I highly doubt this was a calculation by the juror and more Trump reading into something that was never there)
Surprise, motherfucker.
Some fries mother fucker?
👔👔👔👔👔👔 Motherfucker
Thick thighs mother fucker.
All rise motherfucker
Super sized mother fucker.
he did a little trolling lol
I was very surprised by this part of the article:
Someone must have hammered home how if any harm comes to a jury member that can be linked back to something he said, then he'll be in the shit
If only that person could be with him every day of his life...maybe he wouldn't be half as annoying
I guarantee they were the truth social user
If he believed that he filled a 20,000 capacity venue with 100,000 people, hell believe that he has at least 1 fanatic in the jury.
Loyalty be damned! It's the law bitch!
Maybe that's why it took 9 whole hours.