I'm still unironically on Team Orca here. Get sunk, scrubs.
I'd vote for him.
Last I heard, they're bored and rudders are fun to play with.
We need to give them some orca proof toys.
orca sinks yacht, we need to give them alternatives
Nah, I'm cool with them having the yachts
I'm not. It's only a matter of time before some rich asshole starts shooting at the whales, dropping sticks of dynamite or some equivalent callous and heartless thing. I don't give two shits about the rich fucks, but I am highly concerned about the consequences to the whales. Humans, as a species, have no chill.
You're thinking Bezos yachts, these are $50-200$k boats people use as homes to see the world, not rich people. The word yacht doesn't mean wealth, it's just not a common mode of transportation.
The word yacht doesn’t mean wealth,
Yes, yes it does. It doesn't mean 'billionaire,' but these aren't subsistence fishermen we're talking about here.
It was a $128,000 yacht. If you don't think people who can afford such a yacht are rich, you are one privileged person.
It was a $128,000 yacht. If you don’t think people who can afford such a yacht are rich, you are one privileged person.
You'd be surprised how many people own a $128,000 yacht INSTEAD of a more-than-$128,000 house.
(Of course, there are even more people who live aboard full-time on much-less-than-$128,000 yachts. For example, Sailing Uma probably have a bunch of money now 'cause they're relatively successful Youtubers, but they started out spending only about $10k total (purchase + initial refit costs) for their 50-year-old, 36-foot boat. There's an entire subculture of people doing basically nautical #vanlife, and they aren't any richer than the homeless-by-conventional-standards people doing it on land.)
It's a dream I considered many times. It can be cheaper* than land life.
I’ve met them, they fucked up someone else’s boat in the marina I was at, they didn’t offer to fix or help pay, they just bailed. They definitely fit into the asshole category, in my opinion.
TBH might have been a bunch of middle class retirees who sold the family home up in England for like 800k, bought something smaller for two to live in in Spain, and a small sailing boat. I don't think about those people as "rich".
Okay, but they are rich.
i consider statistics to be a good tool in general - but of course only if used correctly (as with any tool, like using a hammer when you have to drill a hole might create a hole but more repair work would be needed and the hole would likely neither be of correct shape nor stability then)
so use the median to determine the middle, not the average. (because when A robs B everything he has, the average of what both have does not change a single quantum but poverty was increased, and that happens since invention of colonisation and other crimes a f***ing LOT and it did not stop yet)
so determine the middle class by median of what ppl earn/have over the whole world. if you limit to anything smaller than the world, you're manipulating by maybe favoring robbers, betrayers, murderers and enslavers, so use the whole world median or you end up with lies only.
as i noted colonisation and slavery, the wealth that had build upon such, is in fact just part of (historic) debt.
well lets see, where i am when i guess the worldwide wealth median.
I do not live paycheck-to-paycheck any more for more than a decade, i own a 22year old economic car ( that does not look shiny but the mrchsnic says its secure), but i own no property and pay rent for a 60m2 flat where i live solo.
thus i am rich. i neither feel safe financially nor feel rich, nor would i really know how to buy a house or a yacht, but compared to the majority of people on the world, i think i am to be considered rich.
I can decide to buy smaller things from my monthly (40h/week) income without the need of thinking, that maybe most of worlds population (the median) would have to save money for in advance or would buy on debt. This alone more than often already is a luxury of the rich: "just buy it (if it does not ruin you)". However, all of my "luxury" would not exist if i wouldn't try to save money or be near to 'nothing' if i had any children to take care for. a generation ago it was possible to build a house, have a car, pay children, pay a bit extra for your non-working wife so she can go shopping AND go to holiday once a year in the expensive season together with the kids by only ONE person doing the same working hours per week as i do today. I do not see this even partly possible today and i do not feel rich enough to be able to finance a child. am i as poor as i am rich just because of how bad the world had beend changed since? maybe. i guess because of the "wealth transfer" to the rich (where i already "profit" a bit from, but also are ripped off by it) all humans on average(!) are more poor than one or two generations ago, while only a very small fraction of the world actually really profits from that transfer.
The more wealth the rich accumulate, the more quickly they spread more poverty day by day, and the more instability in general is created too. This is what i genuinely believe.
But where exactly do i stand in this scenario, comparing myself with the median that i only can imagine what it probably is while all measurements for how rich or poor i am i come up with seem really unusable today.
The by far more easy way is to say "i am NOT rich", point with the finger at someone else who is driving in his roaring and shiny luxury car to his private jet that will bring him to wherever his captain has maneuvered his billionaires yacht to just to jump into the water there. thats an easy view: the others are rich, but not me.
this would be an easy view, but could it also be true? i guess not.
You’re literally attacking middle class people for having a small yacht.
Your concept of wealthy is really skewed.
"Middle class" and "small yacht." Most middle class people can't even afford a house. This is something that costs more than a luxury car.
Yea no one in the middle class can afford a house, a couple of cars and a small yacht.
It’s impossible without having billions in the bank!
Sorry, you think anyone under a billionaire is middle class?
I think there’s enough room in middle class for someone to own a small yacht.
You seem to think middle class means poverty and near homelessness.
I think there's not enough room in "middle class" to buy a home and a yacht that costs more than a luxury car.
There's a reason they're called luxury cars. They're for the rich.
Luxury cars are defined solely for taxation purposes.
Having a couple of million in assets is still middle class. A union worker can build that sort of wealth over a lifetime.
You probably aren’t middle class given your limited views on some rather modest assets.
Having a couple of million in assets is still middle class.
Maybe try to take a photo for us while being attacked, we think they are neat
Well the pics are for identifying individuals. The science folk are trying to create a catalog and with that which pods (family groups) are involved, which aren't, and if there are groups who aren't involved, do they become involved in the future due to being taught/learning the behavior.
Also because they are pretty neat.
"Orca Gang Activity: Crips v Bloods in the Deep Deep Sea"
I'd go see that movie, but only if it's the same crew who made Sharknado.
Just wait until Orcas get opposable flippers.
Yes Mr Sha, last name Moo, could you please sign on the dotted line? Next time you should think twice about swimming drunk.
The ability to manipulate objects isn't really that useful underwater, I feel, apart from being an unprecedented adaptation on the flipper and almost definitely coming at the cost of efficiency while swimming. Everything you want to mess around with as an orca can be transported with your mouth.
Now, sonar loud enough to shatter human rib cages, that's what's going to be the next big step.
Sounds like something octopi would say.
I, for one, welcome our new orca overlords!
For context, not everyone who lives on a boat is wealthy. I live on a 'yacht', a 29 foot sailboat. Your walk-in closet is larger, yet because it's privately owned and not commercial it's considered a yacht.
Your hate is misplaced.
A 29’ boat isn’t small, what kind of walk-in closet do you think people have? Your comment makes you seem really out of touch.
29' to live on fulltime 24/7/365 is small as fuck. 8 steps, that's the entirety of my living space.
I'm not out of touch, you just have no understanding of small sailboats. From the front to the back on deck is 12 steps bro.
A quick google suggests a single mast sailboat can be had for around $50K. Which is a lot of money for a hobby. But it's insanely cheap if it's your house.
But how much does it cost to keep it at a marina per year? And repairs and such?
Don't worry not asking to prove you're rich and need to be eaten or whatever. Wanna know how much money I need to be able to say "fuck it" and quit my job and live on a sailboat.
Ok, I'll break it down large, I want to see you out here.
1978 Bayfield 29, $11,800 (2018) cash cash, envelope full of bills. I put about another $10,000 into it since in upgrades. Larger anchors, chain, lines for everything, new standing rigging, upgraded electrical, home built LifePo4 batteries, GPS, AIS-B, LED lights, solar, wind, blah blah blah.
My dingy is a 2015 Riviera 12' fiberglass $1500. My outboard is a 2009 Yamaha 2stroke 15hp $1600.
My rent is approximately ZERO. I pay jack shit to fuck all. I "live on the hook". I have about $1600 in my mooring (3 anchors, 150' G4 3/8 chain, crane swivel, floaty thing, two lines to the boat from the swivel).
If I was going to live here forever I would need to plan on replacing the chain, swivel, and the connectors every 3-5 years, just to be safe ($1500 just to be safe). I'm leaving after hurricane season but because I have a mangrove swamp I can hide in up to a Cat3 storm I'm here until Thanksgiving.
I have 550w of solar, a Honda eu2200i generator, a 400w wind generator, and live off of 400 amp hours of 12v batteries (2x200ah). Home built at less than half the cost of prefabs in 2020. I love them so much.
New sails will be about $4-6K. My sails are 8 years old and I'm fully expecting to get at least 5 more years from them. I've taken good care of them.
My car is a 2002 Toyota Echo that was $1000, I pay $100 a month to park it about a 1000yards from the public dingy dock, which 99% are free in the US. Down island is a whole other thing, lots of places charge.
I don't have Starlink. If dickhole ever sells his interest in it, I'll have it the next day.
You absolutely can do this, but you will need to become radically self-sufficient. I haven't been to a slip or a dock ( other than fuel) in six years. I haul water by hand, I'm my own electrician, mechanic, sanitation worker, plumber, electric company, you name it. And paradise can fucking suck.
I dont have an oven, don't have a toaster, I don't have any heating or air conditioning. I do have some fans. I don't have hot water unless I put a 20 l can in the Sun. Living this lifestyle is as much about sundowners sunset, bikinis and fun as it is about what you're willing to fucking endure.
Marina's will run you from $300 - $3000 a month. They are hot, noisy, you're crammed RIGHT next to others and they are expensive.
If you want to get an idea of actual prices, take .25 up to .5 off the asking prices for pretty much anything under $80k. Search Tempest for Craigslist, search Florida.
If you decide yeah.... I'll absolutely help your effort and happy to answer any more questions you have.
[edit] Maintenance runs between $2-6k a year. If you preventative maintenance the living shit out of everything, you'll spend a lot less a year. I do 90%+ of the work myself. I purposely bought a small boat because small boats are small problems with small bills comparatively speaking. And also when traveling to communities that are less fortunate than most Americans financially at least, it's easier to interact with the locals on a small boat than it is on a large boat because they will accept you much faster than if you show up on a 50-ft plus.
Fascinating! Thanks for the impromptu AMA!
I couldn't do half of the DIY stuff that you seem to put it. Just here to say that sounds damn impressive.
I guess you travel to follow warm weather? Or how is life in winter?
The DIY isn't that bad, because some nerd on some boat or some board or some website already figured it out.
I've actually been travelling for medical reasons, and my time here in Florida is done. I'll be headed to Colombia to get my mouth fixed at the end of the year.
In summer it's hot, in winter it's cold. Its easier to be comfortable in the cold IMHO.
I’m drowning in this text, I’d be dead inside a month.
Don't sell yourself short. I guarantee you're way more capable than you give yourself credit for.
What do you do for work? Your costs are low, but they aren't zero. I imagine it's nearly impossible to get work if you have to go out to your boat every day or you don't have reliable internet.
Also, is it possible to get/run AC on a boat your size? Florida sounds like hell without AC. I don't think I could manage living there for long without it. I guess you can get in the water to cool off pretty easily though.
I quit being a FTE last year, I was in Infosec. Now I do short term engagements (under a week) in IT, and I fix laptops, phone screens, do electrical or Starlink installs etc etc for the water folk.
I have both T-Mobile & AT&T hot spots .
You absolutely can run AC, you either need a generator, or you need a shit tonne of solar and LifePo4 batteries.
Now that it looks like a storm is forming, I'll be moving and securing vessels for the actual wealthy, and I charge a flat rate of $100/hr. (I'm the blue dot). There's money to be made, you just have to hustle.
After 25 years in tech I'm starting to look for my "out". I have a ton of experience with electrical (signals/rf too), plumbing, mechanical, woodworking, finishing, engines, etc There isn't much I can't fix. As far as nautical experience goes, I'm a novice but I recently went through a small boat certification course and planning on being a "trailer sailor" for a couple years or more to build up experience. I grew up near Charleston SC harbor, and I think the ocean is calling me back.
A couple of questions; how do you find work or how does work find you? Do you have a home base where your tools are located or are you doing these jobs in "random" ports you travel to? (You can message me if you don't want to share your industry secrets publicly 😉 )
/edit Found your blog so I got some reading to do.
Work comes around by asking and telling. Once people know you can do something well you'll get more work. You'll have to diversify and lean into your strengths.
Guard your professional reputation with jealousy because once you get a bad name it'll spread around like wildfire and you won't get any work at all AND people will avoid being your friend. Oh sure other shit heals will be your friend but the respected people won't. Water Folk fucking hate shit bricks.
Every single populated anchorage has "A Guy/Gal" who knows the lay of the land. You absolutely don't want to piss them off and you for god damned sure don't want to take work/money from them, so you don't offer what They offer .... Get it? If they scrape and clean boat bottoms, you don't. This person or these people will be able to facilitate you getting work but you got to be on the good side and you cannot dirty their name.
Working In foreign ports without a work permit is illegal, It absolutely doesn't matter who you're doing the work for. The exception to that is if you're a remote worker working over starlink blah blah blah. But if you're turning a wrench or a screwdriver or a spanner chances are you're working illegally, and you're taking money from the pockets from land-based businesses, so you better fly under the radar.
So given the above, 95% of the work you're going to end up doing is going to be for other cruisers. Because you're not out here already, you probably don't know that there is not a group of people on this planet that can pinch a penny harder and faster than the cruisers. So you're going to have to offer work they either can't do or they don't want to do at attractive prices better than what's available on land/in port.
Home base is where my cat sleeps. I have no permanent address anyplace on Earth.
The REAL answer you are looking for isn't the answer you want. The real answer is, you have to get over your fear of not having a paycheque. You have to throw yourself into the flow of life and hope for the best. After living a life of steady, reliable income jumping into The Flow and hoping you don't drown is pretty fucking scary. Your success out here depends on you managing and overcoming this fear.
My blog sucks, and I am sorry about that. My contact info is readily available if you look for it and if you want to text or call me feel free. I would be more than happy to help you in any way I can other than giving you money. :)
[edit] If you want to read a REAL blog, There is a guy named Alex Dorsey who runs a website called Project Bluesphere. He hasn't really written anything in the last 10 years but everything prior to that is still relevant information and he did an absolutely outstanding job. I highly highly recommend it.
Any book written by Fatty Goodlander, especially, Buy Outfit and Sail, and he has another book that's more technical called Creative Anchoring.
I definitely appreciate your words and completely understand what you're saying. I finished reading your blog and like your "raw" perspective. You should update it with an "where I've been, where I am and where I'm going" post. It feels like a short story, over the span of several years, but you have a bit of a cliff hanger there 😉
I had a bunch of other stuff written but I removed it because it was scatter-brained and all over the place. I may in fact reach out to you for conversation. While our bearings might not be the same, I think there's a lot to learn and I like your style.
Thanks man. You're right, I should.
Awesome info. Thanks for the write up. Have always been curious about the economics.
thank you for sharing.. learned a lot
Depends on the marina, one of my local ones charge $50 per foot a year, plus membership of ~$600-$700 yearly. But this is on a river with no ocean access, not sure how that would change things.
That's actually very reasonable. Yeah I'm sure it's way more money on like the French Riviera, but I don't want to go to places like that.
I gotta learn how to sail tho haha.
Believe it or not a large portion of learning to sail is Keep Air In Keep Water Out, so you already know more than you thought.
Dock fees generally range between $400-$800 a month, and that usually includes water and electricity. I think sewage is extra.
Best way to think about marinas is mobile home parks plus. Most folks there are just normals tryna get by on the cheap. Very occasionally you'll get some landlord or HOA Karen type that thinks their shit doesn't stink, but it always does.
Maintainence is the real killer for the wallet on a boat though. Mobile home units can't sink, so maintaining the home isn't as optional as it would be otherwise. You still get sea gypsies occasionally in floating wrecks anchored just off the docks, but that's everywhere really.
Local classified right now has a 29 foot sloop with extra sails, recent bottom paint, and a 9hp outboard plus dinghy for $5700 CDN. It's been up a while, you could bargain down, the seller seems motivated. It's a 1978 boat so really skookum fiberglass on that.
A mooring buoy costs around $1500 to plop down but sometimes you can get one second hand for less. (Every Canadian is entitled by citizenship to a mooring buoy or two.)
An equivalent RV costs around $15k with nowhere to park.
People who assume that they are going to buy stuff new are just locked into a class-based mindset.
Yeah I'm too poor for a boat but I know a few people who live on them because they're a cheap way to live a chill life. It's very possible to be working class on s yacht, I've also known a few people who move and crew yachts so it's very way for me to imagine the human tragedy these attacks can bring.
I hope we can devise a technology to keep people and marine life safe.
A 29' boat isn't going to have a 29' liveable area.
First off, a boat narrows so much at the front that a 29' boat is really closer to 25' at best. Then it might be 10 feet wide, so you're looking at about 250 square feet. Most of that is gonna be deck so cut that in half again if you want your living space to be out of the elements.
When you go under the deck you might think there would be plenty of room, but you need to have fuel, engine, generator, bilge, etc.
So in your remaining closet-sized space you need to be able to eat, sleep, cook, use the restroom, store your shit, entertain yourself, etc.
If they actually live on it instead of owning a house, I'd still not consider them part of the rich who should be eaten.
A 29' boat is absolutely tiny to live on. The overwhelming majority is taken up by things the boat needs to be a boat
And the rest of the space taken up by shit that keeps me from dying.
But your back yard is infinite.
Boats are the original tiny home.
Around here you can buy a serviceable 29-foot sailboat for $5k, and a mooring buoy for $1k. It's cheaper than a van by the river FFS.
People who live on sub-40-ft sailboats are usually just hanging in there. Source: that was nearly me before my fortunes changed slightly. Boats are underpriced because they are a lot of work.
My sister is a corporate executive. Her walk in closet is objectively larger than a 29-ft live aboard. Hell her ensuite bathroom is bigger than that and she lives in a duplex. You are lacking real world context I think.
For more context. This was a Oceanis 393. so about $100k boat. And it was in the Strait of Gibralter. Not the poorest area of the world.
For context that's where the Orcas are
It’s unfortunate that the orcas can’t tell the difference between rich assholes with yachts, and normal assholes with yachts.
I guess maybe staying out of their tiny part of the ocean while they’re using it is the only thing a person with a yacht can do.
Every yacht is a rich asshole yacht.
That’s not a fair generalization.
I own a house worth x amount of dollars, where “x” is average for a house in my area, and not even close to “rich” amount.
If I sold my house and put that same “x” amount towards a seafaring houseboat of equal value (including all expenses for owning an oceanic home), I’m still not rich.
If I sail that boat into the small, avoidable swimming grounds of an endangered species (only 50 members of this local group remain) and then whine when that species attacks my boat, then I’d be an asshole. But still not rich. Probably even further from it - since I’m sure insurance companies wouldn’t cover my stupidity.
Wait, what do you mean only 50 living members remain? A quick (admittedly too quick) Google search yields the number 50000, did you forget a "thousand"? Or is the situation even more dire?
My mistake, I misread the data. It’s 50 members of the locally protected group off the coast of Spain. I’ve corrected the text above.
Thanks for catching that.
That is still worrisome. Thank you!
Your walk-in closet is larger,
"I'm not that rich!" Thinks most people have a fucking walk in closet
bruh
Yeah you got me. I think everybody has a walk-in closet because I didn't specifically state otherwise in my post
"Your walk-in closet" implies an expectation that the reader has a walk-in closet.
"A walk-in closet" would be more appropriate if that impression wasn't intended.
Can I just give you my login and you change it?
Was genuinely trying to be helpful in case English wasn't your first language. My bad, you're just an asshole.
Too bad there's no setting in your account to give you a better personality :(
Wish I could give you a spoon so you could eat my ass
LMAO holy shit this is going in the rotation. Genuinely, thanks for adding to my list of funny insults
Your typical walk in. I got it.
do you mean to reply to a comment instead of the post? If yes, can you add a link to the comment for context?
General post to the group at large. Lot of people including OP, happy about what they perceive as rich people getting what's coming to them.
"your walk-in closet"
Lol your privilege is showing, tuck it back in
Grow up.
Because they know that if they kill anyone rich enough to afford a boat that some jackass will kill them back. So they keep it to property damage.
Shh, nobody tell the orcas how many humans get killed/ruined to protect property.
They're based
saved a click
Answer: because they are fucking based
Nature is healing.
Did they eat the rich? 🤑 Otherwise the plan is going swimmingly.
I think the answer to this question is in their name tbh. Should have named them Panda Whales instead.
Tell me you know nothing about pandas
pandas
Ugh those fucking fickle hostile, always pooping, weird extra thumb having, sexless weirdos.
I think I know too much about Pandas, and it makes me want nothing to do with their conservation.
Rudders certainly look like a fin...best way to disable prey is to maim a fin. The orcas have learned power vessels are of sterner stuff.
I wonder how practical it'd be to have an underwater sound emitter to repel one. The use of sonar gets sometimes criticized for its impact on whales. You'd think that you could take advantage of that.
kagis
Probably not powerful enough. Looks like military sonar pulls down a lot of power:
The first ship I was on used a sonar system from the ‘60s. The system used the maximum amount of power, just short of causing the transducer (an underwater combination speaker and microphone) array to cavitate (boil the water). As you go deeper, it takes more power to cavitate, so submarine sonars were even more powerful (but seldom used, to keep from advertising their location). Our system used 288,000 watts (A powerful home stereo may use 250 watts, so this is like 1000 home stereos all going at the same time!) When the power supply for the amplifiers malfunctioned, it often erupted fireballs across the room (Our Division Officer was so frightened, after seeing one, that he refused to enter the room, or even come down the stairs to the room’s door!). In addition, besides the raw power, the signal can be electronically focused to go in a single direction, much like the powerful spotlights used for advertising (car dealerships, for example). This makes the signal strong enough, that you can bounce it off the bottom of the ocean and detect a submarine more than 40 miles away.
The sound is so loud, that you can hear it IN THE AIR while near a pier, when the ship was over 1,000 feet away (several city blocks). For a nearby diver in the water, it would extremely painful. In Vietnam, the ships in-port would run their sonars 24 hours a day, to keep enemy divers away from the ships.
Inside the ship, you could hear it, no matter where you were below decks, even in noisy places. Most of the crew hated it. Sometimes, we (the sonarmen) would light-off the system, with the most powerful beam pointed at the rest of the ship, at 6:00 AM for Reveille (“Damned %&$ sonarmen! *%#$%^%$!!!”).
I think we should use AI to decifer their language and send them messages saying, "Chill bro! I'm just passing through." We'll probably get a response going something like, "You in the wrong neighborhood boy!"
"Get off my lawn!"
"YU WOT MATE??!?!?"
These scientists have never heard that "revenge is a dish best served cold".
The article is about orcas, but that video at the top is not an orca and just happened to sink a small fishing boat while it was feeding. Pretty sure that incident was an accident and the whale wasn't trying to sink it, it was just breaching and eating.
I thought they settled on juveniles playing. There are more now and food supply is better, so they have more time and that's why it's increasing.
Quarter stick of dynamite or 110 volts would do the trick.
That's no way to behave as a guest.
Maybe the host shouldn’t trash my ride.
That's why the orcas are destroying the yachts, we're destroying their ride.
*see my original comment.
110 would not do the trick.
Not with that attitude.
“Ohm's law says that the current is voltage divided by resistance, so 110 volts / 2500 ohms gives 0.044 amps. At first, one might say that the orca would survive since that's less than the fatal level of 0.1 amp. However, that level is easily enough to cause the muscles to contract violently, and if that condition persisted for more than a short time, it would kill by respiratory paralysis. (Again, assuming whale physiology is comparable to humans'.”
SchnoodleDoodle wholesome vibes
I'm still unironically on Team Orca here. Get sunk, scrubs.
I'd vote for him.
Last I heard, they're bored and rudders are fun to play with.
We need to give them some orca proof toys.
Nah, I'm cool with them having the yachts
I'm not. It's only a matter of time before some rich asshole starts shooting at the whales, dropping sticks of dynamite or some equivalent callous and heartless thing. I don't give two shits about the rich fucks, but I am highly concerned about the consequences to the whales. Humans, as a species, have no chill.
You're thinking Bezos yachts, these are $50-200$k boats people use as homes to see the world, not rich people. The word yacht doesn't mean wealth, it's just not a common mode of transportation.
Yes, yes it does. It doesn't mean 'billionaire,' but these aren't subsistence fishermen we're talking about here.
It was a $128,000 yacht. If you don't think people who can afford such a yacht are rich, you are one privileged person.
You'd be surprised how many people own a $128,000 yacht INSTEAD of a more-than-$128,000 house.
(Of course, there are even more people who live aboard full-time on much-less-than-$128,000 yachts. For example, Sailing Uma probably have a bunch of money now 'cause they're relatively successful Youtubers, but they started out spending only about $10k total (purchase + initial refit costs) for their 50-year-old, 36-foot boat. There's an entire subculture of people doing basically nautical #vanlife, and they aren't any richer than the homeless-by-conventional-standards people doing it on land.)
It's a dream I considered many times. It can be cheaper* than land life.
I’ve met them, they fucked up someone else’s boat in the marina I was at, they didn’t offer to fix or help pay, they just bailed. They definitely fit into the asshole category, in my opinion.
TBH might have been a bunch of middle class retirees who sold the family home up in England for like 800k, bought something smaller for two to live in in Spain, and a small sailing boat. I don't think about those people as "rich".
Okay, but they are rich.
i consider statistics to be a good tool in general - but of course only if used correctly (as with any tool, like using a hammer when you have to drill a hole might create a hole but more repair work would be needed and the hole would likely neither be of correct shape nor stability then)
so use the median to determine the middle, not the average. (because when A robs B everything he has, the average of what both have does not change a single quantum but poverty was increased, and that happens since invention of colonisation and other crimes a f***ing LOT and it did not stop yet)
so determine the middle class by median of what ppl earn/have over the whole world. if you limit to anything smaller than the world, you're manipulating by maybe favoring robbers, betrayers, murderers and enslavers, so use the whole world median or you end up with lies only.
as i noted colonisation and slavery, the wealth that had build upon such, is in fact just part of (historic) debt.
well lets see, where i am when i guess the worldwide wealth median.
I do not live paycheck-to-paycheck any more for more than a decade, i own a 22year old economic car ( that does not look shiny but the mrchsnic says its secure), but i own no property and pay rent for a 60m2 flat where i live solo. thus i am rich. i neither feel safe financially nor feel rich, nor would i really know how to buy a house or a yacht, but compared to the majority of people on the world, i think i am to be considered rich. I can decide to buy smaller things from my monthly (40h/week) income without the need of thinking, that maybe most of worlds population (the median) would have to save money for in advance or would buy on debt. This alone more than often already is a luxury of the rich: "just buy it (if it does not ruin you)". However, all of my "luxury" would not exist if i wouldn't try to save money or be near to 'nothing' if i had any children to take care for. a generation ago it was possible to build a house, have a car, pay children, pay a bit extra for your non-working wife so she can go shopping AND go to holiday once a year in the expensive season together with the kids by only ONE person doing the same working hours per week as i do today. I do not see this even partly possible today and i do not feel rich enough to be able to finance a child. am i as poor as i am rich just because of how bad the world had beend changed since? maybe. i guess because of the "wealth transfer" to the rich (where i already "profit" a bit from, but also are ripped off by it) all humans on average(!) are more poor than one or two generations ago, while only a very small fraction of the world actually really profits from that transfer.
The more wealth the rich accumulate, the more quickly they spread more poverty day by day, and the more instability in general is created too. This is what i genuinely believe. But where exactly do i stand in this scenario, comparing myself with the median that i only can imagine what it probably is while all measurements for how rich or poor i am i come up with seem really unusable today.
The by far more easy way is to say "i am NOT rich", point with the finger at someone else who is driving in his roaring and shiny luxury car to his private jet that will bring him to wherever his captain has maneuvered his billionaires yacht to just to jump into the water there. thats an easy view: the others are rich, but not me. this would be an easy view, but could it also be true? i guess not.
You’re literally attacking middle class people for having a small yacht.
Your concept of wealthy is really skewed.
"Middle class" and "small yacht." Most middle class people can't even afford a house. This is something that costs more than a luxury car.
Yea no one in the middle class can afford a house, a couple of cars and a small yacht.
It’s impossible without having billions in the bank!
Sorry, you think anyone under a billionaire is middle class?
I think there’s enough room in middle class for someone to own a small yacht.
You seem to think middle class means poverty and near homelessness.
I think there's not enough room in "middle class" to buy a home and a yacht that costs more than a luxury car.
There's a reason they're called luxury cars. They're for the rich.
Luxury cars are defined solely for taxation purposes.
Having a couple of million in assets is still middle class. A union worker can build that sort of wealth over a lifetime.
You probably aren’t middle class given your limited views on some rather modest assets.
That is ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.
Millionaires are not middle class.
That's their HOME. You know of a place in your home country you can purchase a home for $130k? Grow up.
I can point you to a place but I need to define all four dimensions including time.
Where did it say it's his home?
Piss off sourpuss I'm not playing with you.
But... you were the one who replied to me...
And it wasn't his home as far as I know.
Well, a yacht is just a class of vessel. I think a lot of people are confusing them with LUXURY yachts which are way too big to be sunk by orchas.
Here's one for sale, $59,000. I could actually buy this, I mean, yeah, it's from freakin' 1984... but still.
Yeah but don't they all create a lot of harmful sound and disruption to marine life
I mean, no more so than other boats.
Sailboats are a thing too, you know...
Any reduction might still be beneficial to them, I doubt that's part of their calculus. Boats so small they can drown it in a marina
These scientists say they don't intend to sink the boats but they're definitely doing it on porpoise.
Not to blow the joke, but I recently learned Orcas are in the dolphin family. I always thought they were porpoises myself
they're definitely doing it on porpoise
Groan.
"Cause it's fun."
I like the advice is basically
Well the pics are for identifying individuals. The science folk are trying to create a catalog and with that which pods (family groups) are involved, which aren't, and if there are groups who aren't involved, do they become involved in the future due to being taught/learning the behavior.
Also because they are pretty neat.
"Orca Gang Activity: Crips v Bloods in the Deep Deep Sea"
I'd go see that movie, but only if it's the same crew who made Sharknado.
Just wait until Orcas get opposable flippers.
Yes Mr Sha, last name Moo, could you please sign on the dotted line? Next time you should think twice about swimming drunk.
The ability to manipulate objects isn't really that useful underwater, I feel, apart from being an unprecedented adaptation on the flipper and almost definitely coming at the cost of efficiency while swimming. Everything you want to mess around with as an orca can be transported with your mouth.
Now, sonar loud enough to shatter human rib cages, that's what's going to be the next big step.
Sounds like something octopi would say.
I, for one, welcome our new orca overlords!
For context, not everyone who lives on a boat is wealthy. I live on a 'yacht', a 29 foot sailboat. Your walk-in closet is larger, yet because it's privately owned and not commercial it's considered a yacht.
Your hate is misplaced.
A 29’ boat isn’t small, what kind of walk-in closet do you think people have? Your comment makes you seem really out of touch.
29' to live on fulltime 24/7/365 is small as fuck. 8 steps, that's the entirety of my living space.
I'm not out of touch, you just have no understanding of small sailboats. From the front to the back on deck is 12 steps bro.
A quick google suggests a single mast sailboat can be had for around $50K. Which is a lot of money for a hobby. But it's insanely cheap if it's your house.
But how much does it cost to keep it at a marina per year? And repairs and such?
Don't worry not asking to prove you're rich and need to be eaten or whatever. Wanna know how much money I need to be able to say "fuck it" and quit my job and live on a sailboat.
Ok, I'll break it down large, I want to see you out here.
1978 Bayfield 29, $11,800 (2018) cash cash, envelope full of bills. I put about another $10,000 into it since in upgrades. Larger anchors, chain, lines for everything, new standing rigging, upgraded electrical, home built LifePo4 batteries, GPS, AIS-B, LED lights, solar, wind, blah blah blah.
My dingy is a 2015 Riviera 12' fiberglass $1500. My outboard is a 2009 Yamaha 2stroke 15hp $1600.
My rent is approximately ZERO. I pay jack shit to fuck all. I "live on the hook". I have about $1600 in my mooring (3 anchors, 150' G4 3/8 chain, crane swivel, floaty thing, two lines to the boat from the swivel).
If I was going to live here forever I would need to plan on replacing the chain, swivel, and the connectors every 3-5 years, just to be safe ($1500 just to be safe). I'm leaving after hurricane season but because I have a mangrove swamp I can hide in up to a Cat3 storm I'm here until Thanksgiving.
I have 550w of solar, a Honda eu2200i generator, a 400w wind generator, and live off of 400 amp hours of 12v batteries (2x200ah). Home built at less than half the cost of prefabs in 2020. I love them so much.
New sails will be about $4-6K. My sails are 8 years old and I'm fully expecting to get at least 5 more years from them. I've taken good care of them.
My car is a 2002 Toyota Echo that was $1000, I pay $100 a month to park it about a 1000yards from the public dingy dock, which 99% are free in the US. Down island is a whole other thing, lots of places charge.
I don't have Starlink. If dickhole ever sells his interest in it, I'll have it the next day.
You absolutely can do this, but you will need to become radically self-sufficient. I haven't been to a slip or a dock ( other than fuel) in six years. I haul water by hand, I'm my own electrician, mechanic, sanitation worker, plumber, electric company, you name it. And paradise can fucking suck.
I dont have an oven, don't have a toaster, I don't have any heating or air conditioning. I do have some fans. I don't have hot water unless I put a 20 l can in the Sun. Living this lifestyle is as much about sundowners sunset, bikinis and fun as it is about what you're willing to fucking endure.
Marina's will run you from $300 - $3000 a month. They are hot, noisy, you're crammed RIGHT next to others and they are expensive.
If you want to get an idea of actual prices, take .25 up to .5 off the asking prices for pretty much anything under $80k. Search Tempest for Craigslist, search Florida.
If you decide yeah.... I'll absolutely help your effort and happy to answer any more questions you have.
[edit] Maintenance runs between $2-6k a year. If you preventative maintenance the living shit out of everything, you'll spend a lot less a year. I do 90%+ of the work myself. I purposely bought a small boat because small boats are small problems with small bills comparatively speaking. And also when traveling to communities that are less fortunate than most Americans financially at least, it's easier to interact with the locals on a small boat than it is on a large boat because they will accept you much faster than if you show up on a 50-ft plus.
Fascinating! Thanks for the impromptu AMA!
I couldn't do half of the DIY stuff that you seem to put it. Just here to say that sounds damn impressive.
I guess you travel to follow warm weather? Or how is life in winter?
The DIY isn't that bad, because some nerd on some boat or some board or some website already figured it out.
I've actually been travelling for medical reasons, and my time here in Florida is done. I'll be headed to Colombia to get my mouth fixed at the end of the year.
In summer it's hot, in winter it's cold. Its easier to be comfortable in the cold IMHO.
I’m drowning in this text, I’d be dead inside a month.
Don't sell yourself short. I guarantee you're way more capable than you give yourself credit for.
What do you do for work? Your costs are low, but they aren't zero. I imagine it's nearly impossible to get work if you have to go out to your boat every day or you don't have reliable internet.
Also, is it possible to get/run AC on a boat your size? Florida sounds like hell without AC. I don't think I could manage living there for long without it. I guess you can get in the water to cool off pretty easily though.
I quit being a FTE last year, I was in Infosec. Now I do short term engagements (under a week) in IT, and I fix laptops, phone screens, do electrical or Starlink installs etc etc for the water folk.
I have both T-Mobile & AT&T hot spots .
You absolutely can run AC, you either need a generator, or you need a shit tonne of solar and LifePo4 batteries.
Now that it looks like a storm is forming, I'll be moving and securing vessels for the actual wealthy, and I charge a flat rate of $100/hr. (I'm the blue dot). There's money to be made, you just have to hustle.
After 25 years in tech I'm starting to look for my "out". I have a ton of experience with electrical (signals/rf too), plumbing, mechanical, woodworking, finishing, engines, etc There isn't much I can't fix. As far as nautical experience goes, I'm a novice but I recently went through a small boat certification course and planning on being a "trailer sailor" for a couple years or more to build up experience. I grew up near Charleston SC harbor, and I think the ocean is calling me back.
A couple of questions; how do you find work or how does work find you? Do you have a home base where your tools are located or are you doing these jobs in "random" ports you travel to? (You can message me if you don't want to share your industry secrets publicly 😉 )
/edit Found your blog so I got some reading to do.
Work comes around by asking and telling. Once people know you can do something well you'll get more work. You'll have to diversify and lean into your strengths.
Guard your professional reputation with jealousy because once you get a bad name it'll spread around like wildfire and you won't get any work at all AND people will avoid being your friend. Oh sure other shit heals will be your friend but the respected people won't. Water Folk fucking hate shit bricks.
Every single populated anchorage has "A Guy/Gal" who knows the lay of the land. You absolutely don't want to piss them off and you for god damned sure don't want to take work/money from them, so you don't offer what They offer .... Get it? If they scrape and clean boat bottoms, you don't. This person or these people will be able to facilitate you getting work but you got to be on the good side and you cannot dirty their name.
Working In foreign ports without a work permit is illegal, It absolutely doesn't matter who you're doing the work for. The exception to that is if you're a remote worker working over starlink blah blah blah. But if you're turning a wrench or a screwdriver or a spanner chances are you're working illegally, and you're taking money from the pockets from land-based businesses, so you better fly under the radar.
So given the above, 95% of the work you're going to end up doing is going to be for other cruisers. Because you're not out here already, you probably don't know that there is not a group of people on this planet that can pinch a penny harder and faster than the cruisers. So you're going to have to offer work they either can't do or they don't want to do at attractive prices better than what's available on land/in port.
Home base is where my cat sleeps. I have no permanent address anyplace on Earth.
The REAL answer you are looking for isn't the answer you want. The real answer is, you have to get over your fear of not having a paycheque. You have to throw yourself into the flow of life and hope for the best. After living a life of steady, reliable income jumping into The Flow and hoping you don't drown is pretty fucking scary. Your success out here depends on you managing and overcoming this fear.
My blog sucks, and I am sorry about that. My contact info is readily available if you look for it and if you want to text or call me feel free. I would be more than happy to help you in any way I can other than giving you money. :)
[edit] If you want to read a REAL blog, There is a guy named Alex Dorsey who runs a website called Project Bluesphere. He hasn't really written anything in the last 10 years but everything prior to that is still relevant information and he did an absolutely outstanding job. I highly highly recommend it.
Any book written by Fatty Goodlander, especially, Buy Outfit and Sail, and he has another book that's more technical called Creative Anchoring.
I definitely appreciate your words and completely understand what you're saying. I finished reading your blog and like your "raw" perspective. You should update it with an "where I've been, where I am and where I'm going" post. It feels like a short story, over the span of several years, but you have a bit of a cliff hanger there 😉
I had a bunch of other stuff written but I removed it because it was scatter-brained and all over the place. I may in fact reach out to you for conversation. While our bearings might not be the same, I think there's a lot to learn and I like your style.
Thanks man. You're right, I should.
Awesome info. Thanks for the write up. Have always been curious about the economics.
thank you for sharing.. learned a lot
Depends on the marina, one of my local ones charge $50 per foot a year, plus membership of ~$600-$700 yearly. But this is on a river with no ocean access, not sure how that would change things.
That's actually very reasonable. Yeah I'm sure it's way more money on like the French Riviera, but I don't want to go to places like that.
I gotta learn how to sail tho haha.
Believe it or not a large portion of learning to sail is Keep Air In Keep Water Out, so you already know more than you thought.
Dock fees generally range between $400-$800 a month, and that usually includes water and electricity. I think sewage is extra.
Best way to think about marinas is mobile home parks plus. Most folks there are just normals tryna get by on the cheap. Very occasionally you'll get some landlord or HOA Karen type that thinks their shit doesn't stink, but it always does.
Maintainence is the real killer for the wallet on a boat though. Mobile home units can't sink, so maintaining the home isn't as optional as it would be otherwise. You still get sea gypsies occasionally in floating wrecks anchored just off the docks, but that's everywhere really.
Local classified right now has a 29 foot sloop with extra sails, recent bottom paint, and a 9hp outboard plus dinghy for $5700 CDN. It's been up a while, you could bargain down, the seller seems motivated. It's a 1978 boat so really skookum fiberglass on that.
A mooring buoy costs around $1500 to plop down but sometimes you can get one second hand for less. (Every Canadian is entitled by citizenship to a mooring buoy or two.)
An equivalent RV costs around $15k with nowhere to park.
People who assume that they are going to buy stuff new are just locked into a class-based mindset.
Yeah I'm too poor for a boat but I know a few people who live on them because they're a cheap way to live a chill life. It's very possible to be working class on s yacht, I've also known a few people who move and crew yachts so it's very way for me to imagine the human tragedy these attacks can bring.
I hope we can devise a technology to keep people and marine life safe.
A 29' boat isn't going to have a 29' liveable area.
First off, a boat narrows so much at the front that a 29' boat is really closer to 25' at best. Then it might be 10 feet wide, so you're looking at about 250 square feet. Most of that is gonna be deck so cut that in half again if you want your living space to be out of the elements.
When you go under the deck you might think there would be plenty of room, but you need to have fuel, engine, generator, bilge, etc.
So in your remaining closet-sized space you need to be able to eat, sleep, cook, use the restroom, store your shit, entertain yourself, etc.
If they actually live on it instead of owning a house, I'd still not consider them part of the rich who should be eaten.
A 29' boat is absolutely tiny to live on. The overwhelming majority is taken up by things the boat needs to be a boat
And the rest of the space taken up by shit that keeps me from dying.
But your back yard is infinite.
Boats are the original tiny home.
Around here you can buy a serviceable 29-foot sailboat for $5k, and a mooring buoy for $1k. It's cheaper than a van by the river FFS.
People who live on sub-40-ft sailboats are usually just hanging in there. Source: that was nearly me before my fortunes changed slightly. Boats are underpriced because they are a lot of work.
My sister is a corporate executive. Her walk in closet is objectively larger than a 29-ft live aboard. Hell her ensuite bathroom is bigger than that and she lives in a duplex. You are lacking real world context I think.
For more context. This was a Oceanis 393. so about $100k boat. And it was in the Strait of Gibralter. Not the poorest area of the world.
For context that's where the Orcas are
It’s unfortunate that the orcas can’t tell the difference between rich assholes with yachts, and normal assholes with yachts.
I guess maybe staying out of their tiny part of the ocean while they’re using it is the only thing a person with a yacht can do.
Every yacht is a rich asshole yacht.
That’s not a fair generalization.
I own a house worth x amount of dollars, where “x” is average for a house in my area, and not even close to “rich” amount.
If I sold my house and put that same “x” amount towards a seafaring houseboat of equal value (including all expenses for owning an oceanic home), I’m still not rich.
If I sail that boat into the small, avoidable swimming grounds of an endangered species (only 50 members of this local group remain) and then whine when that species attacks my boat, then I’d be an asshole. But still not rich. Probably even further from it - since I’m sure insurance companies wouldn’t cover my stupidity.
Wait, what do you mean only 50 living members remain? A quick (admittedly too quick) Google search yields the number 50000, did you forget a "thousand"? Or is the situation even more dire?
My mistake, I misread the data. It’s 50 members of the locally protected group off the coast of Spain. I’ve corrected the text above.
Thanks for catching that.
That is still worrisome. Thank you!
"I'm not that rich!" Thinks most people have a fucking walk in closet
bruh
Yeah you got me. I think everybody has a walk-in closet because I didn't specifically state otherwise in my post
"Your walk-in closet" implies an expectation that the reader has a walk-in closet.
"A walk-in closet" would be more appropriate if that impression wasn't intended.
Can I just give you my login and you change it?
Was genuinely trying to be helpful in case English wasn't your first language. My bad, you're just an asshole.
Too bad there's no setting in your account to give you a better personality :(
Wish I could give you a spoon so you could eat my ass
LMAO holy shit this is going in the rotation. Genuinely, thanks for adding to my list of funny insults
Your typical walk in. I got it.
do you mean to reply to a comment instead of the post? If yes, can you add a link to the comment for context?
General post to the group at large. Lot of people including OP, happy about what they perceive as rich people getting what's coming to them.
"your walk-in closet"
Lol your privilege is showing, tuck it back in
Grow up.
Because they know that if they kill anyone rich enough to afford a boat that some jackass will kill them back. So they keep it to property damage.
Shh, nobody tell the orcas how many humans get killed/ruined to protect property.
They're based
saved a click
Answer: because they are fucking based
Nature is healing.
Did they eat the rich? 🤑 Otherwise the plan is going swimmingly.
I think the answer to this question is in their name tbh. Should have named them Panda Whales instead.
Tell me you know nothing about pandas
Ugh those fucking fickle hostile, always pooping, weird extra thumb having, sexless weirdos.
I think I know too much about Pandas, and it makes me want nothing to do with their conservation.
Another article...
https://www.maritime-executive.com/article/orcas-sink-yacht-in-strait-of-gibraltar
This one has useful comments, like...
I wonder how practical it'd be to have an underwater sound emitter to repel one. The use of sonar gets sometimes criticized for its impact on whales. You'd think that you could take advantage of that.
kagis
Probably not powerful enough. Looks like military sonar pulls down a lot of power:
https://www.quora.com/How-do-submarines-surface-ships-produce-such-loud-active-sonar-sound-emissions-from-their-transducers
I think we should use AI to decifer their language and send them messages saying, "Chill bro! I'm just passing through." We'll probably get a response going something like, "You in the wrong neighborhood boy!"
"Get off my lawn!"
"YU WOT MATE??!?!?"
These scientists have never heard that "revenge is a dish best served cold".
The article is about orcas, but that video at the top is not an orca and just happened to sink a small fishing boat while it was feeding. Pretty sure that incident was an accident and the whale wasn't trying to sink it, it was just breaching and eating.
I thought they settled on juveniles playing. There are more now and food supply is better, so they have more time and that's why it's increasing.
Quarter stick of dynamite or 110 volts would do the trick.
That's no way to behave as a guest.
Maybe the host shouldn’t trash my ride.
That's why the orcas are destroying the yachts, we're destroying their ride.
*see my original comment.
110 would not do the trick.
Not with that attitude.
“Ohm's law says that the current is voltage divided by resistance, so 110 volts / 2500 ohms gives 0.044 amps. At first, one might say that the orca would survive since that's less than the fatal level of 0.1 amp. However, that level is easily enough to cause the muscles to contract violently, and if that condition persisted for more than a short time, it would kill by respiratory paralysis. (Again, assuming whale physiology is comparable to humans'.”