‘Cold-Blooded Business’: Nintendo Is Patent Trolling Palworld Because It Got Too Big

Stopthatgirl7@lemmy.world to Games@sh.itjust.works – 316 points – ‘Cold-Blooded Business’: Nintendo Is Patent Trolling Palworld Because It Got Too Big
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So you don’t think these patents are going after any aspect of Palworld that players would recognize as a defining feature of a Pokémon game?

I mean, there's like a mechanic where you throw the spheres, right? And this is a very obvious, in your face system [that’s very much like Pokémon]. But I think that it will be a lot more technical than this. Nintendo would have dug through every single action inside the game, they would have probably reverse engineered it, and just find ways to sue these guys. 

You can bet your life that Nintendo hates this company, and they couldn't find an angle with the character designs. This is why they are not mentioned in their press release. So they come with these technical peculiarities. So I personally believe, if you act like this, you can sue like 90 percent of the game developers in the world. I'm sure there's like thousands of games that have a confirmation screen when you go from sleep mode to resuming the game right, but if you basically trigger the wrath of Nintendo, they will come after you.

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This is not business. This is extortion. Palworld has opened a can of worms with a realization that gamers don’t need Pokemon anymore. There can be better alternatives.

I mean, the bar is on the ground at this point at best.

It was a painful process, having my love of Pokémon games slowly stripped away until I finally gave up on them. It's hard giving up on something that you've loved from childhood. Pokémon used to be my comfort game and it's now unplayable trash.

The only reason I still have my Switch at all right now is the Zelda franchise because I currently lack the means to emulate. And the occasional sale item from the eShop because I'm not paying full price for a Switch game ever again after they ruined Pokémon.

I'm surprised no one's brought up the hellscape we know as the Nintendo eShop. It's >90% trash.

Plug for the game cassette beasts! An excellent monster collecting game that feels like a natural progression from early Pokemon

Valid competition vs a super corpo that milked the cow dry. Of course their going to be evil about it.

If Nintendo actually wins this, I will - as someone who grew up with Pokémon - destroy them as a company. I will slander them into submission if I have to, fuck them if I can't even have a circus to go with my bread.

Nintendo is one of the worst companies in the videogames world. They need to fail, and I really hope this next switch becomes something worse than WiiU and they disappear from the world.

However, they won't. Their fanatics won't let them. So I can only hope they double down in their anti consumer behaviour to screw as many customers as they can. Because honestly? If after all these years you keep buying a Pokémon game, you deserve to be scammed and abused as a customer.

They need to fail, and I really hope this next switch becomes something worse than WiiU and they disappear from the world.

However, they won't. Their fanatics won't let them.

Nintendo is famously one of the most cash rich companies out there. A fiscal report from last year indicated they had USD$9 billion in liquid assets.

Nintendo isn't going anywhere anytime soon and it has very little to do with whether or not fanatics "let them".

Well, I mean, if they are that rich, I'm partial to thinking that it's their fanatics' fault buying every shit they release. If a Pokémon game, being as bad as they are, keeps selling in the millions, nobody but their customers is to blame.

One small bank crash and they gone.

The point their making is that Nintendo has a bigger cash vault than most actual banks.

Unless money itself stops being money, they are sitting on a cash-pile so big they could ride out several financial crises by just... Doing nothing.

My hot take is that even before they flushed their goodwill down the toilet, they were a mediocre company. "Here, buy our 500 dollar console with graphics worse than your phone so you can play the Mario game that we added a magic hat to."

Worst and most expensive products in the industry.

Show me a platformer as good as Mario Odyssey not counting A Hat in Time, and I might stop buying from Nintendo. Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are great games too. Saying that they don't offer anything valuable is misguided.

You have to buy their shitty overpriced console to play those. The value nosedives.

And psychonauts 1/2 are right there.

Mario Odyssey is just Mario 64-2. New gimmicks on a traditional platformer. Not saying that it's bad, but it's not a masterpiece either.

Breath of the wild, sure. One of the greatest games made by Nintendo, it redefined the open world genre, but tears of the kingdom is just more of the same, now with cars.

They offer something valuable? Sure... Sometimes they do something good, but the amount of bullshit they bring the videogames world is so big that any good thing they make is strongly eclipsed by the rest of what they do.

Calling odyssey Mario 64 v2 is like calling Doom Eternal Doom 1993 v3. There are a LOT of changes they've made to 3D Mario games mechanically that makes Odyssey a much better platformer than even Galaxy and Sunshine, let alone Mario 64. Yeah, if you look at the story it's still a Mario game. But if you're playing a platformer for the story then you're fundamentally not the audience for a Mario game (or really a good portion of 2D/3D platformers)

I personally despise Nintendo as a company for all of their legal nonsense but I will admit that besides the way Game Freak ruined Pokemon, most of their first party titles are pretty good games.

From what I can tell they are also one of the only large game publishers that shows any amount of care for their game devs. Ignoring the fake Miyamoto quote about rushed games, they've also said in interviews that they want developers to have work-life balances and that they would rather delay games instead of having crunches. The only examples of crunch I could find were (ironically enough) Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, and the original Metroid Prime. (If there are more recent ones my opinion of them would probably be the opposite though)

most expensive products in the industry.

Counter point: PS5 Pro is au$1200 vs Switch OLED for au$540

Counter counterpoint Ps5 pro is modern hardware. Switch internals were outdated at launch and they still cost the same as 7 years ago.

Ps: I do believe Ps5 pro is stupidly overpriced, but that doesn't mean Switch isn't.

Edit: typo

There's no doubt they've created some very good games in the past. Some of their games have become the standard in their genre, and some others have created a new genre even.

But that can't justify their shitty behavior. Especially now that they only create crap. Sure, breath of the wild was huge, made some incredible things, etc. But what else? Mario Odyssey is just mario 64 v.2, animal crossing? Let's not talk about that shit, and I think Pokémon doesn't even deserve to be mentioned.

What? Instead of them acting bad and overprotective about their games, you'd rather the games didn't exist at all? That doesn't make sense. There are problems with the company, but they still make good games. It's not like they mistreat their employees or anything (as far as I'm aware).

Question: What happens if they do disappear like you want? Nintendo fans stop getting the games they like... and how does this benefit everyone else?

Also saying someone deserves to be scammed because they are uninformed is weird. Some people just don't read gaming discourse and reviews, they're not obligated to. And some people actually like the games despite their flaws, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve a better game.

First, they are not overprotective with their games. They are suing for patent infringement over bullshit because in Japan they own patents for things as stupid as "riding a creature in a game". And this is what's happening here. They are hampering progress because they want to be the only one in the monster catching genre. They can vigorously fuck off.

If Nintendo disappears, someone else will come. So many companies died and nothing happened. It's a videogame, they're not making life-saving devices.

If someone buys a Pokémon game now they are rarely uninformed, they are rewarding a company for their shitty behaviour. It's not the first Pokémon and it's not the first time Nintendo acts shitty. But their fanatics will keep defending the company no matter what. At that point, what else can you expect? It's like buying an EA game and then crying because it's full of micro transactions and useless dlcs, etc.

Also, yeah, if you're uninformed and get scammed over stuff that's been happening for years, it's all on you. Fool me once and all that.

I agree that they can fuck off with the patent thing. I'm not trying to defend their actions. Also yeah, if someone buys a pokemon game after not liking the previous one, then cries about it being bad, that's on them. But not all of them have played one of the bad ones before. Although I guess if you don't research before you buy, you can't be too surprised. Also you have to keep in mind that the people complaining about the pokemon games online aren't the majority of the people buying it. Most people buying them just want a pokemon game and don't care too much about it's quality as long as it still has what they like. Although that doesn't excuse all the bugs and stuff.

But with Nintendo disappearing, how does that benefit anyone? If you don't like Nintendo games, you can already just not play them. People buying them buy them because they like them. Them disappearing doesn't help people who do like Nintendo games, and it doesn't help people who don't like Nintendo games.

Because if they kill Palworld, that proves they are willing to cross that line and deserve to be destroyed, and they very clearly WANT to destroy Palworld.

But with Nintendo disappearing, how does that benefit anyone? If you don't like Nintendo games, you can already just not play them. People buying them buy them because they like them. Them disappearing doesn't help people who do like Nintendo games, and it doesn't help people who don't like Nintendo games.

They have killed tons of fan games just because they have enough money to throw at lawyers so people won't even try to fight them.

They kill competition with these practices.

They are against emulation and game conservation while actively screwing consumers who try to legally play their games...

And the list goes on and on. They are a bad company that happens to make some good games. Those few good games are not enough to redeem them for the rest of what they do.

Edit: typo

Emulation still exists though. And the fan games are made by and for Nintendo fans. They usually also want to play the new Nintendo games as well, not just the fan games. And those fan games wouldn't exist without the Nintendo games they're inspired by. I mean, I guess if you only play old Nintendo games or fan games based on them, Nintendo disappearing could be good. But I would bet that there are many more people who want to play Nintendo's new games, and will want to play the ones that are released in the future, than people who only want to play old ones/fan games.

Edit: Also

They kill competition with these practices.

So there should instead be 1 less company in the console space? That will increase competition?

Emulation exists despite Nintendo trying their best at every chance they have to destroy it. Not thanks to them.

And fan games exist only until Nintendo decides they have to be shut down. Which is frequently.

For the Nintendo future games? Well, what can I say? Again, it's a video game company. And as Palworld and others are showing, many others can do what Nintendo does in better ways. We won't have another mario if they close? There will be someone making a new platformer as good. There won't be a new Pokemon? We already have better alternatives.

But if they disappear, games like Palworld will have a chance without having to risk being sued over all this crap.

Edit: Nintendo is the one hoarding these patents that then they can weaponize against competition, so yeah, if they disappear, competition will get better because they won't have to be worried about being sued for things as dumb as putting a confirmation window after resuming a game from sleep.

I think people are jumping to the conclusion way too fast. We should wait and see what the actual case is about before making judgements.

Nah, fuck bitchtendo.

ya man fuck them!!! Like who gives a fuck what's happening we just want to fuck everyone when there's a chance

we just want to fuck everyone when there's a chance

No, just specifically Nintendo as they have shown that they are complete assholes

I think that conclusion is being come to because Nintendo has a really bad history with patent and legal abuse

Nah. Unless these guys literally stole the code, Nintendo can fuck right off.

Patents are cancer for software, I'll side with Carmack before Nintendo any day.

I have been boycotting nintendo for a while now. But it seems that for most people, they don't care how horrid a company is so long as they get to consume.

I think this is a bad take, and the interviewer seems to contradict himself. He suggests that Nintendo goes after companies who copy them, but also mentions another company they've sued for patent infringement for a game that didn't resemble any Nintendo property. So it seems like it has less to do with whether or not you "trigger the wrath of Nintendo", and more whether you use their patents or not.

It should be noted that this is all just conjecture from somebody not related to the case at all. Nothing in this interview reveals any details about the actual case in question.

Their patents are not for technological innovative things at all but are for things like "presenting a confirmation pop-up window after resuming a game from sleep” or for in a isometric game projecting a shadow for a character that's behind something so that the player know it's there.

They're the kind of obvious solutions that any expert in that domain would develop independently if asked to solve that problem, and patent applications for shit like that would be laughed out of the Patent Office anywhere else than Japan (and in the US before their Patent System went to shit in the late 90s).

I very much doubt this shit is valid in Europe unless there's some kind of Treaty that means Japanese patents also apply here. If taken to court in the US such patents would most likely be invalidated - the problem in the US is that the Patent Office will accept any old bollocks obvious to doman experts and containing zero innovation, not that Patent Law actually protects this shit and they will be upheld if somebody has the money needed to dispute them in to Court.

However this is Japan and the Japanese Patent System, so it's probably rotten to the core.

Nintendo literally created a patent this year and waited for it to get approved before suing palworld a month after. Clowns over at Nintendo.

I was a Nintendo fan my entire life. I literally own almost every Nintendo console (no vrboy). Nintendo made the unfortunate decision to not create quality games, but to litigate for profit. I will never go back to Nintendo so long as they still have Gary Bowser's life in their hands. Nintendo has lost life long fans over their action towards competitors, and their inability to make a quality game(say what you want but Pokémon is half assed compared to palworld). I look forward to the eventual bankruptcy filing from Nintendo. I might buy Mario.

My money’s on the balls, Nintendo always likes to kick the balls.

Got too big?

I haven't heard anyone mention this since like a month after it came out. It's down to 20k players from like two million in January.

https://steamcharts.com/app/1623730

This is just Nintendo's standard glacial pace. We've had ROM sites up for a decade before they were taken down. No doubt some team of lawyers have been collecting a gargantuan hourly rate while putting together all the images of Palworld NPCs and how they're blatant Pokemon rip-offs.

And they're not wrong, exactly. There's a lot of Pokemon rip-off games about. Digimon, Yokai Watch, Temtem, etc. But only Palworld has had me see the screenshots and go "they're Pokemon". Even Aldi don't advertise their frosted flakes with a cartoon tiger in a red neckerchief. There are lines, and when you step over them lawyers tend to get involved.

You haven't read the article, have you?

The problem is not the pals looking like Pokémon. The problem is that Nintendo has an enormous amount of software patents for stuff as dumb as "a confirmation pop-up window after resuming a game from sleep".

They could literally sue any videogame in the world if they wanted because of their patent trolling in software. And that is dangerous for everyone. They can sue you for patent infringement if you make a game where the players catch a creature with a sphere. Because yeah, they patented that.

I'm taking issue with the "got too big" part.

Nintendo are patent trolls, but I think we all know why they're going after Palworld and it won't be about confirmation screens.

Actually that's what they are going after. That's why they are filing a patent infringement and not a copyright infringement cause.

Yes... technically. But clearly with those broad parents the could also technically go after other monster catching games that have been around forever. I think the point is that Palworld poked the bear a little too much, particularly with the character designs which look to me like they fed all 1000+ Pokemon into generative AI and slapped the results into their game. Are they getting sued for character design? No. Do I think that is a big part of WHY they are being sued? Absolutely.

Yeah but that's not the point.

The point is Nintendo being able to parent troll any threat they see because the Japanese patent system is so dumb and rotten that they are allowed to patent something as stupid as a confirmation window to resume a game.

That is the real problem here. Nintendo is being shitty and has a dangerous capability to literally kill any game they don't like.

That's all that matters. They can (and will, let's not pretend they are a charity) sue potentially any competitors because of this. Nintendo is not a good company and doesn't act in good will. They want money, and they will do whatever to get more. Shutting down a fan game by simply saying "I have more money than you so even if you're not doing anything wrong, you can't afford defending against me" or patent trolling any game that has even a simple confirmation window.

Yeah, they could. However, I think if they DID sue Digimon, TemTem, Monster Hunters, etc using the same patent trolling tactics, they'd probably have a harder time winning, because those games haven't (as blatantly) copied Nintendo. I suspect that's why they haven't done so.

From the article:

They [Colopl] have, I think, almost 2,000 [employees], nobody but knows them outside Japan but they had a famous mobile game called White Cat Project, not copying Mario, not copying Pokémon, not copying Zelda, nothing at all. Nintendo brought forward six patents [...]

One of the patents was for a confirmation screen after sleep mode. [...]

And they had five other ones, including one for isometric, pseudo, 3D games, when the character is hidden behind the tree, the game forms a shadow, so you have a kind of sense for where the character is, even though you don't see the character clearly. Nintendo has a patent on that, [...]

Yeah, they are abusing the patent system. And yes, they potentially have a case against basically any game. This is what we should be talking about.

And we would be talking about it, if Palworld was NOT such a blatant ripoff of Pokemon.

It's like using the OJ Simpson trial as an example of how messed up the LAPD is. Is the LAPD fucked up? Yes. Is OJ Simpson someone that we should be sympathetic to? Not so much.

If they start going after games that are NOT blatant ripoffs of their IP, then yes, I'm much more concerned about the abuses of the patent system. Patent trolling IS a real problem, I'm just not sure if Palworld is the right catalyst for people to be sympathetic about patent trolling.

And still, Nintendo can't sue for copyright (or doesn't want to) which is interesting, because if it was such an evident rip off as everything says and the case was so clear, why wouldn't they go that way?

There's inspiration in the monsters, but what else? Is Pokémon an open world with survival mechanics? Can Pokémon carry weapons?

The problem is still the fact that Nintendo has these patents. That is the issue here. I wouldn't argue if they made a copyright claim, but they are doing a scummy thing and they are setting a precedent that's dangerous. Basically they're telling a new player in Japanese business "hey, we're the big fish, we own the place, you don't have business here, go away".

Yeah, the "chilling effect" is a big problem. I'm sure the creators of TemTem and other alternatives are getting nervous.

I guess we'll never know whether Palworld could have avoided this with a different art style or varying the catching mechanics more.

Nintendo even owns a patent for "riding a creature" in a game. That is such a broad concept that a normal parent system shouldn't allow because of how broad it is. It's just dumb. And Nintendo is taking advantage of it.

Edit: temtem is not Japanese, and any other patent office in the world will laugh at Nintendo if they tried to make a claim in their countries, but since Palworld is Japanese as Nintendo, they can make the claim there.