Trump’s policy agenda includes a Congressional bill to define government-recognized genders strictly as male and female, as assigned at birth.
I have to wonder what is going to happen when the law runs headlong into science here. Because sure, this might primarily affect trans-folk, but they aren't the only ones who defy strict binary gender.
I believe their official stance is simply that any “expert who thinks they know better than the duly elected president” will be fired or ignored
Just have to look at climate science for an example of science taking a backseat to political will.
Intersex and the rest will be ignored and marginalized, just like always.
I have to wonder what is going to happen when the law runs headlong into science here.
They'll double down even harder like the failed war on drugs, despite the damage it's causing. As long as conservatives "feel" like something is the correct solution, it's the right way to go, all evidence, studies, and science be damned.
yup their feelings dont care about the facts
Science?? Have you seen the abortion debate? There are vegetables classified as fruit and other horrors on the law books. Science got nothing to do with it.
So there is a colloquial definition of fruit/veg and a scientific definition. You have a point here, but have there been any court cases that hinged on these laws? And did they hinge in a way that the scientific definition was paramount?
So many people wanting to argue that Republicans don't care about science, but I don't disagree with that. I know they don't. But eventually there are going to be court cases that adjudicate whether a person is legally a man or a woman, and I'm just really curious what the outcome of those cases will be when the law flies in the face of fact.
Did you ever read about the time someone tried to legislate that the value of pi is 3.2? It was saved by the Indiana Senate not falling for that bullshit. Unfortunately, there will be no last-minute rescue in this case. I know it's going to be a clusterfuck. But I also wonder how judges are going to react to people who legitimately do not match the definition of male or female.
This attempt to discriminate against trans-folk will inevitably bump up against ambiguity which a simple binary construct cannot address.
have there been any court cases that hinged on these laws?
Why do you think that science has any place in the Trump administration?
I don't, but when you get to a courtroom, where there are standards of evidence, a judge is going to have to make interpretations that don't match up with the law.
Hell what happens when there is a typo on a birth certificate? If I'm assigned female at birth and am not genetically nor biologically female, what then? I just have to wait five times as long in bathroom lines? Does the government get to track my menstruation?
All of Trumpists' dreams of simplicity are defeated by asking just the most obvious questions. Imagine if I were smart enough to ask good questions.
Well, Trump replaced a bunch of federal judges with sycophants. And, fascists really don't care about the rule of law or logic.
Probably it'll hurt whoever dares to disobey the law :(
Damn intersex people, doing crimes by being born. Let's arrest them immediately out of the womb. /s
Good news is, at least they're safe from abortion. They have to wait until after they are born to punish them for existing.
Just like a good little Nazi.
I was naive to think they'd try easing into this stuff, but — perhaps fortunately for public outrage and taking action — they are being loud and clear about it. Really just no subtlety whatsoever to the fascist horror.
Why be subtle? A majority voted for him, he has all 3 branches of government, and any opposition he has is too concerned about decorum to do anything to stop him. Thanks, non-voters in swing states!
Misleading headline. Nowhere does the article mention anything about banning such care for adults.
It's still wholly and completely shit, but the headline and the first paragraph are (as of right now) incorrect.
It will be kind of hard for adults to get gender-affirming care, though, when the government enforces that your gender is fixed at birth.
Sure, nobody is arguing against the fact it will be harder to get this type surgery - mostly due to financial reasons. But claim that it's getting banned is a filthy fucking lie
That's like splitting hairs over whether a abortion is banned in Texas, cuz technically it is allowed under very narrow circumstances that no hospital is willing to try.
The fact you have to pay now for the surgery is completely different from ban with few exceptions. You're completely wrong
I am completely wrong and yet completely vindicated by your response.
Not all gender affirming care is surgery. In fact, almost all gender affirming care isn't surgery. He wants to restrict all of it so that as few people as possible can get on it, then eventually it'll be an entire ban because he doesn't want trans people to exist at all. While it might not initially be an entire ban, its pretty fucking close and will be expanded upon eventually.
He also proposed excluding hospitals and healthcare providers who offer these services from Medicaid and Medicare
We'll see how that turns out.....
He also proposed excluding hospitals and healthcare providers who offer these services from Medicaid and Medicare
Repealing Roe V Wade was only about stopping late term abortions. It's not that hard to read the room with this orange dipshit.
Press spreading lies because of an agenda. Colour me surprised
This is the man who said "you send your kid to school as a boy, and they change his sex and send him home a girl." He told his rally goers that schools do sex changes and they believed him.
Hair plugs are gender affirming care for men. Those banned too?
Sucks that breast augmentation will be banned for girls under 18. And I assume likewise for guys regarding treatment for gynecomastia.
The party of rAtIOnAliTY aNd lOgiC would know that those are also gender affirming, right?
All the innersex conservatives sweating right wondering if they'll also be marginalized
Whoopsy
As predictable as the sun rising in the East. BTW, if you are easy to outrage, you have a bad number of years ahead.
Ah yes, for all the most accurate and insightful news about the US election's consequences I always turn to Pakistani news outlets.
You should read articles from multiple nations. They will report on things our news won’t. Also they have very different takes on what’s happening.
I mean I definitely do but it's hard to imagine this is insider information considering the distance from the issue being reported on.
I guess it would be hard to imagine that countries have spies after trump gave the list of US spies to putin and they all mysteriously died from unrelated causes.
That’s fantastic! Thanks Trump. ❤️
Your account history is too shallow to know if this is sarcasm
I'm going to guess sarcasm.
“On day one, I will revoke Joe Biden's policies on so-called gender-affirming care. Ridiculous. A process that involves giving kids puberty blockers, mutating their physical appearance, and ultimately performing surgery on minor children. Can you believe this?”
This is the reason he won. Society ain't happy with plastic surgeries performed on children
prohibitions on gender-affirming care for both minors and adults
Only minors, neither article nor my own research point to adult ban. Looks like the article lies on purpose
Society ain't happy with plastic surgeries performed on children
Which statistically isn't a thing that's happening and I've never heard anyone argue in favor of.
The study found no gender-affirming surgeries performed on TGD youth ages 12 and younger in 2019. This was expected, the researchers said, as current international guidelines do not suggest any medical or surgical intervention for TGD individuals prior to puberty. For teens ages 15 to 17 and adults ages 18 and older, the rate of undergoing gender-affirming surgery with a TGD-related diagnosis was 2.1 per 100,000 and 5.3 per 100,000, respectively. A majority of these surgeries were chest surgeries.
For teens ages 15 to 17
Legally still children. You're trying to argue it's fine to do this on 12-17 year olds?
They get charged as adults in court all the time. Girls of this age can get pregnant and in some places this makes them a legal adult regardless of age. Most places in the US they can get married. It's hard to feel they are full children given all this.
Also, they can't get treatment without parental consent, which is not true of most of the above.
Edit: and I forgot join the military! Statistically far more people regret their military service than their gender care.
Harry Potter tattoos have a higher regret rate than transgender surgeries
Most of the regret rate, when looked at alongside reasons for de-transitioning, usually winds up being FAR more on the side of "it's fucking easier for me to live as my assigned gender and deal with the dysphoria, than dealing with rednecks threatening to turn me into their latest lynching victim every Tuesday."
It's hard to feel they are full children given all this.
Still they have severe legal limitations of what they can and can't do. If you want to argue that age of majority should be lower, it comes with bunch of other ugly problems, like alcohol, prostitution, adult content consumption ect.
I guess you missed the parental permission part.
I'm not sure you understand the hurdles that a trans kid and their families have to go through to get gender affirming care in the first place. It's not like you can just walk into a doctors office and get your penis turned inside out on a whim.
The whole "kids getting gender reassignment surgery" is just a dog whistle to get people who are ignorant on the topic riled up.
I think that, if this question is in good faith, this might be the right time for you to tell us what you think the process is for transitioning. What the steps are, how long you're legally required to wait between steps, what paperwork and doctor's visits are required for which step, which step is a "point of no return", that kind of thing.
We don't know what level your knowledge is at and it's hard to educate someone who is not brave enough to put themselves out there to be corrected.
On the other hand if you don't want to learn today and you just want to feel empowered in your hate, I think Twitter is great for that kind of thing
if this question is in good faith
When it comes to arguing against access to gender-affirming healthcare for trans individuals, it's never in good faith.
if this question is in good faith, this might be the right time for you to tell us what you think the process is for transitioning
I think if you want to change your gender via surgery you should be at least 18 years old. That barrier is put there for many reasons for all sorts of activities, and responsibilities. Having potentially hazardous surgery is perfectly within that framework
I'm sorry, but I asked if you knew what the steps are, how long you're legally required to wait between steps, what paperwork and doctor's visits are required for which step, which step is a "point of no return", that kind of thing. Do you have any knowledge about those topics whatsoever, or are you forming opinions without knowing anything about the topic at hand?
Do you have any knowledge about those topics whatsoever,
Do I need to know? What this type of knowledge brings to the debate?
Yes, you need to be knowledgeable about or have experience with things you have opinions on. To do anything otherwise would be "spreading lies because of an agenda."
Well, it brings the knowledge that if minors do get a double mastectomy (top surgery), they have to be on testosterone for a while (minimum of a year, which is a LONG time to figure out that maybe you don't like these changes). They also have to get consent from parents and 2 separate therapists plus an endocrinologist need to sign off on the surgery.
I feel like if you knew this, it'd probably be a lot less scary to you. They have to jump through a lot of hoops and every hoop gives a lot of time for them to figure out if this is the right choice.
What this type of knowledge brings to the debate?
An actual understanding of what you're arguing against? You feel that it's too easy for minors to get gender-affirming surgery, yet you actually know nothing of the process.
If you're not willing to learn about what you're arguing against, you're acting in bad faith.
Yup, this exactly. The smartest thing to do with a population that is historically the most mentally stable among us we should tell children they just need to hold out two more years to deal with the things making their lives hell. They'll be fine, or not, who cares really? They should just realize gender is fake and they're a man, but failing that wait until I don't have a good legal argument yet before taking steps to make your life better.
That's conservatives. Cis gender affirming care for kids isn't banned. Surgeries on children's genitals are not banned. It's perfectly fine to circumcize an infant. Genital mutilation as a whole isn't brought up by these people... they simply got rid of the transgender aspects.
Trumpers don't see anything wrong with aesthetic surgeries for children. They just can't be gender affirming for transgender kids. Only gender affirming for cis children.
I should have just scrolled down before responding to that bigoted fuck. But yeah, the fact that genital mutilation is fine, as long as it follows their assigned at birth gender, is ridiculous and completely fucking hypocritical, although that tracks for evangelicals and the right.
Circumcision reinforces the control they get off on, so it’s ok. Gender affirming care subverts both their control and their backwards worldview so it’s not and cognitive dissonance can get fucked.
Cis gender affirming care for kids isn't banned.
In some places, people get away with sending their kids to conversion therapy to provide sexuality affirming "care". Conservatives aren't bitching about that now, are they?
Hypocrites.
Why are you expanding the age range beyond what you quoted? Seems like a bad faith tactic. Try harder next time.
At an incidence of 2 for every 100,000 getting surgery, I have to assume that between the individual, their parents, and the doctors involved there was some concerning factor that pushed the surgical intervention into something more than simply treating the emotional/mental body dysmorphia. And I'm not so pompous as to try and inject myself into that process on their behalf.
Plastic surgery is performed on children all the time. How do you think we treat cleft lip/palate? Or deal with rrcovery from facial etc. injuries after an accident? Dumbass.
People didn't care enough to show up to stop forced births, you think they care about puberty blockers? Doubt.
The most common type of gender affirming care is boys spontaneously developing breasts and wanting them removed. Nothing to do with being trans.
I'm sure once some high-ranking Republican's son is getting bullied relentlessly for having titties, they'll rethink their position.
He also proposed excluding hospitals and healthcare providers who offer these services from Medicaid and Medicare
I don't think it's the reason why Trump won.
Also, most people don't experience trans problems, so the whole thing is a storm in a teacup. Let people have more medical care, not less.
I have to wonder what is going to happen when the law runs headlong into science here. Because sure, this might primarily affect trans-folk, but they aren't the only ones who defy strict binary gender.
I believe their official stance is simply that any “expert who thinks they know better than the duly elected president” will be fired or ignored
Just have to look at climate science for an example of science taking a backseat to political will.
Intersex and the rest will be ignored and marginalized, just like always.
They'll double down even harder like the failed war on drugs, despite the damage it's causing. As long as conservatives "feel" like something is the correct solution, it's the right way to go, all evidence, studies, and science be damned.
yup their feelings dont care about the facts
Science?? Have you seen the abortion debate? There are vegetables classified as fruit and other horrors on the law books. Science got nothing to do with it.
So there is a colloquial definition of fruit/veg and a scientific definition. You have a point here, but have there been any court cases that hinged on these laws? And did they hinge in a way that the scientific definition was paramount?
So many people wanting to argue that Republicans don't care about science, but I don't disagree with that. I know they don't. But eventually there are going to be court cases that adjudicate whether a person is legally a man or a woman, and I'm just really curious what the outcome of those cases will be when the law flies in the face of fact.
Did you ever read about the time someone tried to legislate that the value of pi is 3.2? It was saved by the Indiana Senate not falling for that bullshit. Unfortunately, there will be no last-minute rescue in this case. I know it's going to be a clusterfuck. But I also wonder how judges are going to react to people who legitimately do not match the definition of male or female.
This attempt to discriminate against trans-folk will inevitably bump up against ambiguity which a simple binary construct cannot address.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nix_v._Hedden
Why do you think that science has any place in the Trump administration?
I don't, but when you get to a courtroom, where there are standards of evidence, a judge is going to have to make interpretations that don't match up with the law.
Hell what happens when there is a typo on a birth certificate? If I'm assigned female at birth and am not genetically nor biologically female, what then? I just have to wait five times as long in bathroom lines? Does the government get to track my menstruation?
All of Trumpists' dreams of simplicity are defeated by asking just the most obvious questions. Imagine if I were smart enough to ask good questions.
Well, Trump replaced a bunch of federal judges with sycophants. And, fascists really don't care about the rule of law or logic.
Probably it'll hurt whoever dares to disobey the law :(
Damn intersex people, doing crimes by being born. Let's arrest them immediately out of the womb. /s
Good news is, at least they're safe from abortion. They have to wait until after they are born to punish them for existing.
Just like a good little Nazi.
I was naive to think they'd try easing into this stuff, but — perhaps fortunately for public outrage and taking action — they are being loud and clear about it. Really just no subtlety whatsoever to the fascist horror.
Why be subtle? A majority voted for him, he has all 3 branches of government, and any opposition he has is too concerned about decorum to do anything to stop him. Thanks, non-voters in swing states!
Misleading headline. Nowhere does the article mention anything about banning such care for adults.
It's still wholly and completely shit, but the headline and the first paragraph are (as of right now) incorrect.
It will be kind of hard for adults to get gender-affirming care, though, when the government enforces that your gender is fixed at birth.
Sure, nobody is arguing against the fact it will be harder to get this type surgery - mostly due to financial reasons. But claim that it's getting banned is a filthy fucking lie
That's like splitting hairs over whether a abortion is banned in Texas, cuz technically it is allowed under very narrow circumstances that no hospital is willing to try.
The fact you have to pay now for the surgery is completely different from ban with few exceptions. You're completely wrong
I am completely wrong and yet completely vindicated by your response.
Not all gender affirming care is surgery. In fact, almost all gender affirming care isn't surgery. He wants to restrict all of it so that as few people as possible can get on it, then eventually it'll be an entire ban because he doesn't want trans people to exist at all. While it might not initially be an entire ban, its pretty fucking close and will be expanded upon eventually.
We'll see how that turns out.....
Repealing Roe V Wade was only about stopping late term abortions. It's not that hard to read the room with this orange dipshit.
Press spreading lies because of an agenda. Colour me surprised
This is the man who said "you send your kid to school as a boy, and they change his sex and send him home a girl." He told his rally goers that schools do sex changes and they believed him.
Hair plugs are gender affirming care for men. Those banned too?
Sucks that breast augmentation will be banned for girls under 18. And I assume likewise for guys regarding treatment for gynecomastia.
The party of rAtIOnAliTY aNd lOgiC would know that those are also gender affirming, right?
All the innersex conservatives sweating right wondering if they'll also be marginalized
Whoopsy
As predictable as the sun rising in the East. BTW, if you are easy to outrage, you have a bad number of years ahead.
Ah yes, for all the most accurate and insightful news about the US election's consequences I always turn to Pakistani news outlets.
You should read articles from multiple nations. They will report on things our news won’t. Also they have very different takes on what’s happening.
I mean I definitely do but it's hard to imagine this is insider information considering the distance from the issue being reported on.
I guess it would be hard to imagine that countries have spies after trump gave the list of US spies to putin and they all mysteriously died from unrelated causes.
That’s fantastic! Thanks Trump. ❤️
Your account history is too shallow to know if this is sarcasm
I'm going to guess sarcasm.
This is the reason he won. Society ain't happy with plastic surgeries performed on children
Only minors, neither article nor my own research point to adult ban. Looks like the article lies on purpose
Which statistically isn't a thing that's happening and I've never heard anyone argue in favor of.
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/gender-affirming-surgeries-rarely-performed-on-transgender-youth/
Legally still children. You're trying to argue it's fine to do this on 12-17 year olds?
They get charged as adults in court all the time. Girls of this age can get pregnant and in some places this makes them a legal adult regardless of age. Most places in the US they can get married. It's hard to feel they are full children given all this.
Also, they can't get treatment without parental consent, which is not true of most of the above.
Edit: and I forgot join the military! Statistically far more people regret their military service than their gender care.
Harry Potter tattoos have a higher regret rate than transgender surgeries
Most of the regret rate, when looked at alongside reasons for de-transitioning, usually winds up being FAR more on the side of "it's fucking easier for me to live as my assigned gender and deal with the dysphoria, than dealing with rednecks threatening to turn me into their latest lynching victim every Tuesday."
Still they have severe legal limitations of what they can and can't do. If you want to argue that age of majority should be lower, it comes with bunch of other ugly problems, like alcohol, prostitution, adult content consumption ect.
I guess you missed the parental permission part.
I'm not sure you understand the hurdles that a trans kid and their families have to go through to get gender affirming care in the first place. It's not like you can just walk into a doctors office and get your penis turned inside out on a whim.
The whole "kids getting gender reassignment surgery" is just a dog whistle to get people who are ignorant on the topic riled up.
I think that, if this question is in good faith, this might be the right time for you to tell us what you think the process is for transitioning. What the steps are, how long you're legally required to wait between steps, what paperwork and doctor's visits are required for which step, which step is a "point of no return", that kind of thing.
We don't know what level your knowledge is at and it's hard to educate someone who is not brave enough to put themselves out there to be corrected.
On the other hand if you don't want to learn today and you just want to feel empowered in your hate, I think Twitter is great for that kind of thing
When it comes to arguing against access to gender-affirming healthcare for trans individuals, it's never in good faith.
I think if you want to change your gender via surgery you should be at least 18 years old. That barrier is put there for many reasons for all sorts of activities, and responsibilities. Having potentially hazardous surgery is perfectly within that framework
I'm sorry, but I asked if you knew what the steps are, how long you're legally required to wait between steps, what paperwork and doctor's visits are required for which step, which step is a "point of no return", that kind of thing. Do you have any knowledge about those topics whatsoever, or are you forming opinions without knowing anything about the topic at hand?
Do I need to know? What this type of knowledge brings to the debate?
Yes, you need to be knowledgeable about or have experience with things you have opinions on. To do anything otherwise would be "spreading lies because of an agenda."
Well, it brings the knowledge that if minors do get a double mastectomy (top surgery), they have to be on testosterone for a while (minimum of a year, which is a LONG time to figure out that maybe you don't like these changes). They also have to get consent from parents and 2 separate therapists plus an endocrinologist need to sign off on the surgery.
I feel like if you knew this, it'd probably be a lot less scary to you. They have to jump through a lot of hoops and every hoop gives a lot of time for them to figure out if this is the right choice.
An actual understanding of what you're arguing against? You feel that it's too easy for minors to get gender-affirming surgery, yet you actually know nothing of the process.
If you're not willing to learn about what you're arguing against, you're acting in bad faith.
Yup, this exactly. The smartest thing to do with a population that is historically the most mentally stable among us we should tell children they just need to hold out two more years to deal with the things making their lives hell. They'll be fine, or not, who cares really? They should just realize gender is fake and they're a man, but failing that wait until I don't have a good legal argument yet before taking steps to make your life better.
That's conservatives. Cis gender affirming care for kids isn't banned. Surgeries on children's genitals are not banned. It's perfectly fine to circumcize an infant. Genital mutilation as a whole isn't brought up by these people... they simply got rid of the transgender aspects.
Trumpers don't see anything wrong with aesthetic surgeries for children. They just can't be gender affirming for transgender kids. Only gender affirming for cis children.
I should have just scrolled down before responding to that bigoted fuck. But yeah, the fact that genital mutilation is fine, as long as it follows their assigned at birth gender, is ridiculous and completely fucking hypocritical, although that tracks for evangelicals and the right.
Circumcision reinforces the control they get off on, so it’s ok. Gender affirming care subverts both their control and their backwards worldview so it’s not and cognitive dissonance can get fucked.
In some places, people get away with sending their kids to conversion therapy to provide sexuality affirming "care". Conservatives aren't bitching about that now, are they?
Hypocrites.
Why are you expanding the age range beyond what you quoted? Seems like a bad faith tactic. Try harder next time.
At an incidence of 2 for every 100,000 getting surgery, I have to assume that between the individual, their parents, and the doctors involved there was some concerning factor that pushed the surgical intervention into something more than simply treating the emotional/mental body dysmorphia. And I'm not so pompous as to try and inject myself into that process on their behalf.
Plastic surgery is performed on children all the time. How do you think we treat cleft lip/palate? Or deal with rrcovery from facial etc. injuries after an accident? Dumbass.
People didn't care enough to show up to stop forced births, you think they care about puberty blockers? Doubt.
The most common type of gender affirming care is boys spontaneously developing breasts and wanting them removed. Nothing to do with being trans.
I'm sure once some high-ranking Republican's son is getting bullied relentlessly for having titties, they'll rethink their position.
I don't think it's the reason why Trump won.
Also, most people don't experience trans problems, so the whole thing is a storm in a teacup. Let people have more medical care, not less.