Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
Its even worse than that. The buttons are smooth surface (like a touch screen) with haptic feedback. These are truly a horrible idea:
If I had one of these Tesla cars I'd look into retrofitting the stalks back in.
If you buy a Tesla at this point, you deserve to be stuck with it.
Up the butt?
They might get in trouble with EU laws if they do it here as well...
Gotta love good regulation.
I thought it was already released in EU.
Holy shit that's worse than how the article put it
If this catch on, maybe 3rd party Bluetooth/USB stalk will be a thing.
Maybe USB, but I'd certainly not want to end up having to re-pair my Bluetooth mid turn.
That doesn't sound like it'll be legal in a lot of countries.
retrofitting the stalks back in.
Tesla is going to sue you for 50000 :-)
Up for right and down for left. Yeah, that makes fuckin' sense. Did they take their inspiration from the keyboard on the Apple 2GS?
It would have been smarter to zip tie the turn signal switch assembly from a 1980's motorcycle onto the steering wheel. At least on a motorcycle switch left means left and right means right (and center is cancel).
Wtf, seriously? I've tried using media buttons on the steering wheel during a turn. It's not reliable in the slightest, because it's a moving target.
Does the non circular steering non-wheel never go past 90 degrees or something?
I once accidentally dialed 911 from my steering wheel phone buttons while pulling a turn. Surprised the shit out of me and the dispatcher didn’t sound like this was the first call of the type. This is a fucking terrible idea.
Tbf you are supposed use the signal before turning wheel
Covered in the article. In Norway you are required to signal when exiting a roundabout. It's a fair concern.
Just in civilized countries, not only Norway.
Some countries don't have roundabouts
Civilized countries have roundabout
It's a significantly more efficient way for dealing with high-traffic in a cross-roads situation (though less safe than traffic signs) and pretty much a must if you get 5 or more roads converging and not enough to space to merge a few of those upstream.
However it takes some practice to be comfortable using them, plus they're most efficient when drivers reliably signal their intention to exit (because it allows people waiting to go in to know earlier that it's safe to do so).
Good signalling on roundabouts is basic driving skills you learn when getting your license, but for sure not everyone does it properly every time. In the Netherlands there's roundabouts that work around this by having physical lanes that dispatch the vehicles to the exits, so if you're trying to get in and see they're in that exit lane you can go in knowing there's no way they will stay on.
Well, I've lived in The Netherlands and I would say that the extra complexity of the bicycle path (which generally leads to a bicycle roundabout outside the car one) does push for having to help drivers a bit extra in the absence of traffic signs managing the thing (since anybody exiting the roundabout still has to give way to bicycles).
That said, even in my own native Portugal, were maybe 9 out of 10 of all drivers do not properly and reliably use the direction indicators (from personal experience I would say the quality of driving here is one of, if not THE, worst in Europe) roundabouts are all over the place, clearly help and don't seem to be any more accident prone than regular T and X junctions.
At least in Cities Skylines 1&2, where the player has a good overview of the behavior, they only work for low to medium amount of traffic. If you have one side sending in cars constantly, the others never get an opportunity to enter the roundabout, so there’s a traffic jam spanning through the whole city behind it.
Yeah, that's a good point.
If you are going hand-over-hand in a roundabout, you're doing something very wrong...
The point is that there will be no way to handle the turn signal through muscle memory. With a traditional control, it is always in the same place in relation to your body. It doesn’t move. When it’s in the steering wheel, it can be in many, many different places. If you have media controls on your steering wheel, try using them during a turn without taking your eyes off the road. Now pretend they are smooth and act like a touch input on a dual shock controller.
With a traditional control, it is always in the same place in relation to your body
As is the one on the wheel. Right next to your thumb.
Your thumb stays at the same place on the steering wheel when you’re not driving straight? O.o
Unless I'm making a very sharp turn (in which case my turn signal should already be on), yes, of course it does.
There are numerous times you would need to put your turn signal on when the steering wheel isn’t perfectly straight. A three point turn for instance. Exiting a roundabout in some places, a curved residential road. Just because you fail to think of scenarios it applies in, doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply.
There are numerous times you would need to put your turn signal on when the steering wheel isn’t perfectly straight
No one is talking about "when the steering wheel isn't perfectly straight". Come back when you want to have an honest conversation.
Pretty honest conversation here. If you’re doing any of the things I just listed, you’re improperly driving if your thumbs aren’t moving.
Me: "Unless I'm making a very sharp turn"
You: "When the steering wheel isn't perfectly straight".
There's nothing honest about that. You're intentionally misrepresenting my argument.
That's not the issue, imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel, which is at an angle, in order to indicate right before turning tight in order to exit the roundabout.
A stalk will always be in the same position. The same cannot be said for buttons.
imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel
Your don't have to "find" anything, it's right next to your thumb
Drivers frequently change their hand placement as they turn the wheel. You lose precision and basic ability to manipulate the wheel if you don't.
If you are going hand-over-hand in a roundabout, you're doing something very wrong...
I think you're right. People in this thread are forgetting that this steering yoke doesn't have anywhere to put your hands other than right next to the buttons
A driving instructor saying "I couldn't use this on my first go" isn't a fatal argument for the control
Sure a stick is probably superior, but I bet you could build muscle memory on a wheel that works like a race car's
But it's not a yoke, it's a steering wheel, which generally turn up to 1 and 1/2 times each way, which with a small radius roundabout (which is a lot of them in Norway) means you'll have to go hand over hand to turn sharply enough, thus not having your hands on the exact same spots through the turn and thus not able to press the right haptic feedback panel at that time.
In addition to roundabouts, there are plenty of freeway exists that loop around where you can be at an extreme turn and need to initiate a lane change. Or making a right turn into a gas station after a left turn at an intersection... lots of use cases.
You wish but it’s not drive by wire. You steel to turn in multiple times in sharp angles. Of the ratio were to change relative to speed it would make sense but right now it’s just plain dumb.
Not sure about the older teslas, but the cybertruck steering is way more sensitive, so you shouldn't need to turn it more than 90°.
And the buttons on the wheel are at least normal clicky buttons now, instead of touch sensitive areas. Which is less bad, but still pretty bad.
My old peugeot even has an extra stick behind the wheel for the radio control, and it's the best UX ever invented.
What? You'd be hitting the turn signal when you're going straight. Do you drive a BMW or something?
Turns exist on curved roads too. So do lane changes.
What about exiting a roundabout?
Very true, although in my experience you're more likely to encounter someone putting on their blinker mid-turn as someone properly signaling a roundabout exit...
Or driving down a twisty road, which where I live is most roads.
In Norway, you have to indicate your exit in a roundabout by activating your turn signal, and he found it difficult while turning the steering wheel, which you have to do in a roundabout. A driving student would fail their test if they don’t activate their turn signal in a roundabout in Norway.
He said:
I tested the Model 3, and noticed that I lost both focus and direction in roundabouts. It’s not directly life-threatening, but you run the risk of both driving on curbs and other cars if there are two lanes.
After posting his findings in a group for driving schools, he was met with agreement by many other instructors who said that they experienced the same issue and the risk is much higher with students.
It's like car features that have been around for 70+ years are the way they are for a reason.
Reminds me of the guy that built that sub that got crushed. There are standards in place for good reasons and ignoring them is a bad idea.
Yup, and just like the sub Tesla did multiple things that were substandard because they worked in controlled environments and even worked ok the real world for a short time before failing.
It should be painfully obvious by now that Elon Must is one of those "I know best" Pigheaded Ignorants.
He always "knows best" so almost a century of auto engineering verified by trillions of hours of actual field use are meaningless next to his "superior" ideas (which whilst looking like UI design are painfully devoid of actual UI/UX expertise).
It's the same reason why when he started Tesla he tried to fully automate car manufacturing whilst having zero experience in auto manufacturing and it blew up badly and all his early factories had to be retooled and hire actual auto-workers.
No wander he turned out to be a rightwing-nutter: In my experience "I know best" Pigheaded Ignorants is one of the most common personality profiles in that tribe.
People who actually know how to signal in a roundabout are a rare breed. Dunno how it's in other countries but the German rules actually make sense: Don't signal when entering. There's exactly one way to go, so why would you. Don't signal when driving around the roundabout as that's straight ahead (even if it's a circle). Do signal before the exit you want to take, this is for the benefit of people waiting to enter (or maybe those behind but only on 2-lane roundabouts). As a corollary: If you signal while you enter you're pining straight for the first exit... but honestly avoid it too many people signal wrong so it's better to not play fast+loose.
That's not the way I learned in France, where they make you signal left before entering and use the inner lane, only if you're going further than halfway through the roundabout.
You signal right before entering only if you're taking the first exit.
In any case you signal right after driving past the last exit before your own.
Australian rules are (we keep left and go clockwise around roundabouts)
If turning left, indicate left throughout the entry and exit
If turning right, indicate right, indicate left after the exit before the one you are using
If going straight ahead don't indicate on entry, indicate left after the exit before the one you're taking
I'm sure most people follow the rules, but I see a lot who indicate wrong, and the drivers of the various premium brands don't indicate at all ever
in the Netherlands people often do signal left while on the roundabout but that feels mostly because of cyclists who also do so.
Do they have cyclists and cars in the same roundabout at the same time?
Do any of them survive?
Yes they do; seperate paths.
The red ones are bicycle paths.
Ooohhh, nice!
Roundabouts and bikes aren't really a problem? It's normally safer to do them normally than dismount and use the pedestrian crossings like they seem to want you to do (unless there are traffic light controlled crossings)
You just have to hold your lane like you are a car.
Roundabouts and bikes aren't really a problem?
In theory, probably not.
In every single situation that I have experienced, when both car and bike were in a roundabout together, there was some kind of problem (mostly not serious, fortunately).
For those that don't want to read the article:
Tesla is going with buttons on the steering wheel instead of a stick to the left of the wheel
Its even worse than that. The buttons are smooth surface (like a touch screen) with haptic feedback. These are truly a horrible idea:
If I had one of these Tesla cars I'd look into retrofitting the stalks back in.
If you buy a Tesla at this point, you deserve to be stuck with it.
Up the butt?
They might get in trouble with EU laws if they do it here as well...
Gotta love good regulation.
I thought it was already released in EU.
Holy shit that's worse than how the article put it
If this catch on, maybe 3rd party Bluetooth/USB stalk will be a thing.
Maybe USB, but I'd certainly not want to end up having to re-pair my Bluetooth mid turn.
That doesn't sound like it'll be legal in a lot of countries.
Tesla is going to sue you for 50000 :-)
Up for right and down for left. Yeah, that makes fuckin' sense. Did they take their inspiration from the keyboard on the Apple 2GS?
It would have been smarter to zip tie the turn signal switch assembly from a 1980's motorcycle onto the steering wheel. At least on a motorcycle switch left means left and right means right (and center is cancel).
Wtf, seriously? I've tried using media buttons on the steering wheel during a turn. It's not reliable in the slightest, because it's a moving target.
Does the non circular steering non-wheel never go past 90 degrees or something?
I once accidentally dialed 911 from my steering wheel phone buttons while pulling a turn. Surprised the shit out of me and the dispatcher didn’t sound like this was the first call of the type. This is a fucking terrible idea.
Tbf you are supposed use the signal before turning wheel
Covered in the article. In Norway you are required to signal when exiting a roundabout. It's a fair concern.
Just in civilized countries, not only Norway.
Some countries don't have roundabouts
Civilized countries have roundabout
It's a significantly more efficient way for dealing with high-traffic in a cross-roads situation (though less safe than traffic signs) and pretty much a must if you get 5 or more roads converging and not enough to space to merge a few of those upstream.
However it takes some practice to be comfortable using them, plus they're most efficient when drivers reliably signal their intention to exit (because it allows people waiting to go in to know earlier that it's safe to do so).
Good signalling on roundabouts is basic driving skills you learn when getting your license, but for sure not everyone does it properly every time. In the Netherlands there's roundabouts that work around this by having physical lanes that dispatch the vehicles to the exits, so if you're trying to get in and see they're in that exit lane you can go in knowing there's no way they will stay on.
Well, I've lived in The Netherlands and I would say that the extra complexity of the bicycle path (which generally leads to a bicycle roundabout outside the car one) does push for having to help drivers a bit extra in the absence of traffic signs managing the thing (since anybody exiting the roundabout still has to give way to bicycles).
That said, even in my own native Portugal, were maybe 9 out of 10 of all drivers do not properly and reliably use the direction indicators (from personal experience I would say the quality of driving here is one of, if not THE, worst in Europe) roundabouts are all over the place, clearly help and don't seem to be any more accident prone than regular T and X junctions.
At least in Cities Skylines 1&2, where the player has a good overview of the behavior, they only work for low to medium amount of traffic. If you have one side sending in cars constantly, the others never get an opportunity to enter the roundabout, so there’s a traffic jam spanning through the whole city behind it.
Yeah, that's a good point.
If you are going hand-over-hand in a roundabout, you're doing something very wrong...
The point is that there will be no way to handle the turn signal through muscle memory. With a traditional control, it is always in the same place in relation to your body. It doesn’t move. When it’s in the steering wheel, it can be in many, many different places. If you have media controls on your steering wheel, try using them during a turn without taking your eyes off the road. Now pretend they are smooth and act like a touch input on a dual shock controller.
As is the one on the wheel. Right next to your thumb.
Your thumb stays at the same place on the steering wheel when you’re not driving straight? O.o
Unless I'm making a very sharp turn (in which case my turn signal should already be on), yes, of course it does.
There are numerous times you would need to put your turn signal on when the steering wheel isn’t perfectly straight. A three point turn for instance. Exiting a roundabout in some places, a curved residential road. Just because you fail to think of scenarios it applies in, doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply.
No one is talking about "when the steering wheel isn't perfectly straight". Come back when you want to have an honest conversation.
Pretty honest conversation here. If you’re doing any of the things I just listed, you’re improperly driving if your thumbs aren’t moving.
Me: "Unless I'm making a very sharp turn"
You: "When the steering wheel isn't perfectly straight".
There's nothing honest about that. You're intentionally misrepresenting my argument.
That's not the issue, imagining driving through a roundabout that curves left and having to find a button somewhere on the steering wheel, which is at an angle, in order to indicate right before turning tight in order to exit the roundabout.
A stalk will always be in the same position. The same cannot be said for buttons.
Your don't have to "find" anything, it's right next to your thumb
Drivers frequently change their hand placement as they turn the wheel. You lose precision and basic ability to manipulate the wheel if you don't.
Quoting yourself won't magically make you right.
No one thinks it will.
So why do it?
Because it was obviously not read.
Again, it depends on the angle of the steering wheel. The buttons may be upside down if the car is turning sharply enough.
Again, no it doesn't. The button should always be in the exact same position, relative to your thumb.
If you're turning that sharply, you're not going to need turn signals.
Do you stick your hands to the steering wheel with Krazy glue?
You can't be serious if you think people don't take sharp turns from time to time and have to indicate.
...huh?
You are bad at reading. Try again.
I'll do it your way...
I was replying to this comment:
Are you seriously telling me you never reposition your hands on the steering wheel?
This is total nonsense:
Ever heard about U-turns? You need to signal while doing those too. That's just one example that disputes your position.
You're still bad at reading. That's not what I said. Try again.
If you turn on your signal in the middle of a U-turn, you're a bad driver. That's not a problem with the car, that's a problem with you.
I think you're right. People in this thread are forgetting that this steering yoke doesn't have anywhere to put your hands other than right next to the buttons
A driving instructor saying "I couldn't use this on my first go" isn't a fatal argument for the control
Sure a stick is probably superior, but I bet you could build muscle memory on a wheel that works like a race car's
But it's not a yoke, it's a steering wheel, which generally turn up to 1 and 1/2 times each way, which with a small radius roundabout (which is a lot of them in Norway) means you'll have to go hand over hand to turn sharply enough, thus not having your hands on the exact same spots through the turn and thus not able to press the right haptic feedback panel at that time.
See https://lemmy.ml/comment/7056795
In addition to roundabouts, there are plenty of freeway exists that loop around where you can be at an extreme turn and need to initiate a lane change. Or making a right turn into a gas station after a left turn at an intersection... lots of use cases.
You wish but it’s not drive by wire. You steel to turn in multiple times in sharp angles. Of the ratio were to change relative to speed it would make sense but right now it’s just plain dumb.
Not sure about the older teslas, but the cybertruck steering is way more sensitive, so you shouldn't need to turn it more than 90°. And the buttons on the wheel are at least normal clicky buttons now, instead of touch sensitive areas. Which is less bad, but still pretty bad.
My old peugeot even has an extra stick behind the wheel for the radio control, and it's the best UX ever invented.
What? You'd be hitting the turn signal when you're going straight. Do you drive a BMW or something?
Turns exist on curved roads too. So do lane changes.
What about exiting a roundabout?
Very true, although in my experience you're more likely to encounter someone putting on their blinker mid-turn as someone properly signaling a roundabout exit...
Or driving down a twisty road, which where I live is most roads.
It's like car features that have been around for 70+ years are the way they are for a reason.
Reminds me of the guy that built that sub that got crushed. There are standards in place for good reasons and ignoring them is a bad idea.
Yup, and just like the sub Tesla did multiple things that were substandard because they worked in controlled environments and even worked ok the real world for a short time before failing.
It should be painfully obvious by now that Elon Must is one of those "I know best" Pigheaded Ignorants.
He always "knows best" so almost a century of auto engineering verified by trillions of hours of actual field use are meaningless next to his "superior" ideas (which whilst looking like UI design are painfully devoid of actual UI/UX expertise).
It's the same reason why when he started Tesla he tried to fully automate car manufacturing whilst having zero experience in auto manufacturing and it blew up badly and all his early factories had to be retooled and hire actual auto-workers.
No wander he turned out to be a rightwing-nutter: In my experience "I know best" Pigheaded Ignorants is one of the most common personality profiles in that tribe.
People who actually know how to signal in a roundabout are a rare breed. Dunno how it's in other countries but the German rules actually make sense: Don't signal when entering. There's exactly one way to go, so why would you. Don't signal when driving around the roundabout as that's straight ahead (even if it's a circle). Do signal before the exit you want to take, this is for the benefit of people waiting to enter (or maybe those behind but only on 2-lane roundabouts). As a corollary: If you signal while you enter you're pining straight for the first exit... but honestly avoid it too many people signal wrong so it's better to not play fast+loose.
That's not the way I learned in France, where they make you signal left before entering and use the inner lane, only if you're going further than halfway through the roundabout.
You signal right before entering only if you're taking the first exit.
In any case you signal right after driving past the last exit before your own.
Australian rules are (we keep left and go clockwise around roundabouts)
I'm sure most people follow the rules, but I see a lot who indicate wrong, and the drivers of the various premium brands don't indicate at all ever
in the Netherlands people often do signal left while on the roundabout but that feels mostly because of cyclists who also do so.
Do they have cyclists and cars in the same roundabout at the same time?
Do any of them survive?
Yes they do; seperate paths.
The red ones are bicycle paths.
Ooohhh, nice!
Roundabouts and bikes aren't really a problem? It's normally safer to do them normally than dismount and use the pedestrian crossings like they seem to want you to do (unless there are traffic light controlled crossings)
You just have to hold your lane like you are a car.
In theory, probably not.
In every single situation that I have experienced, when both car and bike were in a roundabout together, there was some kind of problem (mostly not serious, fortunately).
Yes. Most times one or both did not do that.