Treating people differently because of their beliefs? I'm not even that conservative, but you sound like the real bigots.
If someone's beliefs are a danger to my life or others' then yep, I won't be pursuing a relationship with them, romantic or otherwise.
Pffft, just means that your beliefs have consequences.
Something something tolerance paradox.
You realise that beliefs are a shifting scale, right? Not everybody with beliefs right of center are alt-right Nazis. I can't stand those people either.
I used to be similar to you, until I met people with a whole host of opinions. I wish you well.
If 11 people agree to share a table with 1 nazi, you have a dozen Nazis.
How's the Maths education where you are?
That’s a civics lesson. That you think it’s about the math is on you.
Better than yours apparently.
How's your English education?
Oof. You’ve just said that you either have an inability to process a simple aphorism, or, worse, you think it’s fine to ally with Nazis, effectively proving the truth of the aphorism.
Love a good self own, get rekt nazi.
Never said you were, but that doesnt mean the cutoff point has to be all the way "out there" for conservative and problematic in the long run.
Besides, what do you even know about "me" given you say you used to "be like me"? You know, well perhaps not nothing but not much. And i too have met people with lots of different oppinions, yet i didnt leap towards the right, quite the opposite in fact. So... if you "used to be similar to me", well then you're close to falling into the deep end.
Here is some free advice: careful with what you assume you know about someone you never met before.
Yeah, that's a fair point about assumption, was a bit silly of me. I'm responding to a few people of the same stance as you so it all kind of blurs into one. Kbin needs some default profile pic rather than a black square.
You realise that beliefs are a shifting scale, right?
We're discussing ideologies of hate, exclusion, and domination. Such ideologies do not tolerate anything less than absolute compliance. So no, there's no shifting scale here; your side won't allow there to be one.
I wish you well.
No you don't, and that's the whole problem.
Excuse me for... *checks notes* ...choosing who to pursue relationships with based on our common values or the lack of them.
Phrasing it that way is really solid and makes a lot of sense.
I also treat racists differently because of their beliefs, as well as sexists. I guess I'm the real bigot here.
Well, no, that's perfectly understandable, since those people are impacting other people.
But not everyone who has conservative opinions is a racist and a sexist alt-right weirdo.
.... do you think that conservative positions don't impact other people?
My guy, I can rattle off at least half a dozen conservative bugaboos without which I would be quite literally dead. Don't give me the "Well, it's just their opinion!" bullshit.
There is no type of politics that doesn't affect somebody.
Literally dead? That seems like you're being dramatic, my guy.
I'm a mentally ill cripple with multiple chronic illnesses and severe social anxiety. I've been in spots in my life before where government assistance of multiple kinds has been the difference between life and death. Don't give me the 'You're being dramatic' bullshit unless you've vomited blood to the point of near exsanguination, had to ration life-saving medication, had breakdowns on the side of a freeway, shattered a thigh, went quite literally without food for days for lack of means, etc etc etc etc. In all of those cases, government programs have, at least once and often multiple times, been the difference between life and death for me.
Go fuck yourself.
Isn't it amazing how detached people can be from the real-world effects of their thoughts and beliefs, so long as they don't get to personally experience their impact?
I've personally experienced a universal healthcare system and its effects. It killed a family member and almost killed me.
Sorry for that guy's experiences, but the sort of things he went through are systems and programmes you'd get in most governments throughout the whole political landscape.
Is the view that this wouldn't have happened under private healthcare predicated on something in particular? It's not like private healthcare is somehow fundamentally immune to malpractice.
it’s one step away from a toilet paper usa astroturfing bit
In the UK where there's universal healthcare, we had Dr. Harold Shipman who murdered a lot, and a current court case with Lucy Letby who killed 8 newborns. Malpractice happens in every system regardless of how it's funded.
Probably not the place for a discussion about healthcare systems on a meme shitpost thread, but I do think there's better alternatives to universal healthcare where standards usually drop for everybody. Obviously, there's some godawful private systems too, just look at America.
nice anecdotes. the data say more socialized systems have better performance overall, time and time again.
i would link you, but being a smart conservative, i’m sure you know the googles and how to separate emotional arguments and facebook memes from reporting on data-driven studies.
I'll note that it's extremely hard to vet for that sort of behaviour in doctors and preempt the cases you've described from happening - they could have just as easily happened under private healthcare.
but I do think there's better alternatives to universal healthcare where standards usually drop for everybody.
Citations needed
Having lived in two countries with universal health care and in the states I can safely say you are full of shit and the American system only works if you have a ton of money.
One of my good friends got fired after being diagnosed with cancer and because she made over the amount for Medicare already she was out of pocket until the next year.
That’s a cruel system where you buy your way into the line.
I totally agree, the American system is awful. Germany, on the other hand, has the most beds per person in the G7. Fully insurance driven.
89% of Germans are covered by public health insurance funds, with 11% covered by private health insurance.
Both public and private systems are currently struggling due to inflation.
And how many people in your country have medical debt, which can stretch into hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars? As someone who’s got extensive experience with a decent tier of US healthcare, it blows, and this system is perfectly capable of fucking up and killing people. People with national healthcare who don’t appreciate it) like British Conservatives, which I’d guess from spelling and syntax is what you are) have no fucking idea. You have never seen someone coughing up blood not go to the doctor because of what it would cost, only for you to make her go to the emergency room, which you know coukd ruin her life, because you thought she might die. I have, with a friend in college. She turned out ok, but plenty don’t. Obamacare marginally improved things, but if you haven’t dealt with a for-profit health system, then you should be spending more time listening before assuming it’s better than yours.
Oh, a liar defending conservatives? How boring.
my grandpa died because of the inadequacy of my country's public healthcare system. i'm still not gonna advocate for the privatization of healthcare, because yes, private healthcare exists too, guess what, it doesn't apply to everyone (and didn't happen to apply to my grandpa). that's quite literally the point of making it private and paywalled, if you don't or can't pay up, you're shit out of luck.
universal healthcare isn't perfect, but it's still better to provide it than to not do so. especially since if you know how the free market works, you should also know that if either supply or demand is inflexible that leads to market exploitation, and demand is static without a government baseline. if people receive universal healthcare, then private options can still exist, but using them is an option, not an imperative, and therefore the market can actually do its thing.
same goes for other issues like housing. why do you think the prices are skyrocketing? you can say no to, idk, a tv, and just watch shit on your phone instead, so tv prices are sane, but if you say no to housing means you'll live on the street. some people do try that, which is why van life is so frickin popular lately, but for the most part, the demand for housing is the same no matter what the supply side does, so it will just skyrocket. the invisible hand can't work if you tie one of the hands.
So they shouldn't want better life conditions for themselves? You don't want any improvment for even yourself? Please tell me you are a troll or a bot.
Yeah, I literally could not afford to be alive due to the insanity of the US healthcare system, and multiple chronic diseases which hit me in my 30s and resulted in several ER visits and requirement of very expensive medication. Meanwhile republican politicians pretty much jerk off with glee about taking away my access to healthcare, which would literally kill me. Not sure how “I’m not that conservative! I’m one of the good ones! I just vote for people who want you to die!” folks expect me to feel.
Uh, no, pretty much every conservative politician wants to take away my access to healthcare, which would kill me.
Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas
Maybe a small portion, but that just means they're 100% okay with those as long as the already super rich can be the tiniest bit richer
My favorite thing is when a conservative finds themselves outside of one their safe-space, echo chambers and are shocked to discover that not only do regular people not agree with them, but they find their views so abhorrent that they actively view all conservatives as complete pieces of shit. And they are not wrong to do so.
i'm the real bigot because i dont want to shag someone who happily advocates for making it as hard as possible for me to get gender affirming healthcare and openly supports the neoliberal privatisation that's devastated my country?
yes i very openly discriminate against conservatives, i have no plans for stopping or apologising
Would a black person be justified in not wanting to date a white supremacist? Or would you call the black person “the real bigot”?
Not wanting to date someone because of their beliefs sounds like a perfectly valid reason. Especially if those beliefs can impact someone's rights
You should 100% treat people different depending on their beliefs.
If the beliefs in question are like, banning books, oppressing gender identities, removing reproductive rights, oppressing the needy, undermining elections with baseless conspiraciesand selling out to the highest bidders, then yeah, they and their beliefs can suck a fuck.
Right? Whenever someone is confused about my dislike of conservatives, they act like I disagree with their tax policies.
Obviously there are bigger things at issue here.
Conservatives: "We don't believe that you should have full control over your body and will happily pass laws to prevent you from exercising that control, including laws that will send you to prison for a life-saving medical procedure."
Women: "oh fuck. Wow. Uh. Okay, I will not be associating with you."
You: "WOAHHHHH WOAHHHHHHHH WOW CALM DOWN THERE LITTLE MISS BIGOT HOW ABOUT SOME RESPECT FOR PEOPLE HUH?"
Choosing not to date someone isn't really treating someone differently, 7 billion people on this planet you're not gonna date most of them
Not wanting to date somebody is not the same as "treating people differently". You're arguing in bad faith
You talk like someone who's never scrolled through beholdthemasterrace. Are you actually a fuckin nazi bro? You sure talk like one.
Less than a day between "conservatives arent all bad guys, stop being so mean" to literally defending Nazi's.
Yea bud, I'll just go ahead and use you as an example of exactly why people feel the way they do in this thread.
When it comes to dating? Yes. Absolutely. Why would you think that beliefs are a non factor for dating?
"Im not that conservative" said every conservative ever when arguing on a left leaning platform
I kinda get a kick out of the ignorance some conservatives bring to the table. It's almost cute, if not so stupid.
You should read up on the paradox of tolerance, and why Conservative attempts to play the victim card only expose their hypocrisy.
Believe it or not, it's perfectly normal to only want a relationship with someone who shares your core values. You conservatives (don't lie) might understand that if you actually tried to have an actual relationship with someone instead of trying to establish ownership over them.
I hope this is a bit.
I mean I form all judgements and treat people different based off their beliefs and actions as the former lead to the latter...
No cause we don't advocate for them to be punished in any way. We just don't want to fuck them.
That persecution fetish is out and about, huh?
I don't mind their different beliefs, what matters is the fact that they try to force it on everyone else. You think being gay is bad? Then don't be gay yourseld. You think getting an abortion is bad? Then don't get an abortion. But the moment you try to force that on anyone else is the moment you're inviting the world to shit on you. After all, no one is passing laws to discriminate against straight cis people, or forcing everyone to get an abortion.
When their beliefs include hating me, yeah, I'm going to treat them differently.
Hello! You have fallen into the tolerance paradox; how can you be tolerant when you're intolerant to intolerance? Easy I'm tolerant because I don't tolerate intolerance. Beliefs aren't equal, anyone who believes in inferiority or inequal treatment for reasons outside ones control should be called out. It is not a live and let live mindset, it's a "live the way I tell you to or you're a bigot" doesn't sound very liberty loving to me. You can dislike it, you can rant, but once you limit peoples access to equal rights and treatment you're infringing on their rights. Any freedom loving American can respect that.
You'll notice that on the list of things that are illegal to discriminate against, everything is either an immutable part of the person (national origin, race, gender) or is something that is unethical to ask a person to change about themselves (religion).
Political beliefs are nowhere on the list, because they're not immutable and it's not unethical to ask somebody to change them.
Discriminating against somebody for their political affiliation or political beliefs is legal and, in some cases, moral/ethical.
(As an aside, this is what makes all the people wanting to discriminate against LGBTQ people on religious grounds so egregious; they always had the right to discriminate against LGBTQ people on political grounds, but that wasn't enough for them. They had to do it "in the name of God.")
I don't think that asking someone to change their religion is unethical, at least if asking them to stop being religious. In most cases, religion is not all that different from politics, with religion being central to various modern and historical states. At best, religion to someone is just a set of unsubstantiated beliefs. In less good cases, they'll proselytize and be pushy about it and make bad personal decisions and use their religion to justify it. At worst, they use it as a political tool, using it as a justification to be discriminatory and exclusionary. Many wars and other atrocities in history have been for religion or catalyzed by it. Encouraging people to step away from delusion that has a historical tendency to cause mass violence shouldn't be wrong to do. It's protected legally in much of the west because it's useful as a political tool. It's easier to use religious rhetoric as a way to push other political goals than it is to fight against and let others embrace it the same.
Treating people differently because of their beliefs? I'm not even that conservative, but you sound like the real bigots.
If someone's beliefs are a danger to my life or others' then yep, I won't be pursuing a relationship with them, romantic or otherwise.
Pffft, just means that your beliefs have consequences.
Something something tolerance paradox.
You realise that beliefs are a shifting scale, right? Not everybody with beliefs right of center are alt-right Nazis. I can't stand those people either.
I used to be similar to you, until I met people with a whole host of opinions. I wish you well.
If 11 people agree to share a table with 1 nazi, you have a dozen Nazis.
How's the Maths education where you are?
That’s a civics lesson. That you think it’s about the math is on you.
Better than yours apparently.
How's your English education?
Oof. You’ve just said that you either have an inability to process a simple aphorism, or, worse, you think it’s fine to ally with Nazis, effectively proving the truth of the aphorism.
Love a good self own, get rekt nazi.
Never said you were, but that doesnt mean the cutoff point has to be all the way "out there" for conservative and problematic in the long run.
Besides, what do you even know about "me" given you say you used to "be like me"? You know, well perhaps not nothing but not much. And i too have met people with lots of different oppinions, yet i didnt leap towards the right, quite the opposite in fact. So... if you "used to be similar to me", well then you're close to falling into the deep end.
Here is some free advice: careful with what you assume you know about someone you never met before.
Yeah, that's a fair point about assumption, was a bit silly of me. I'm responding to a few people of the same stance as you so it all kind of blurs into one. Kbin needs some default profile pic rather than a black square.
We're discussing ideologies of hate, exclusion, and domination. Such ideologies do not tolerate anything less than absolute compliance. So no, there's no shifting scale here; your side won't allow there to be one.
No you don't, and that's the whole problem.
Excuse me for... *checks notes* ...choosing who to pursue relationships with based on our common values or the lack of them.
Phrasing it that way is really solid and makes a lot of sense.
I also treat racists differently because of their beliefs, as well as sexists. I guess I'm the real bigot here.
Well, no, that's perfectly understandable, since those people are impacting other people.
But not everyone who has conservative opinions is a racist and a sexist alt-right weirdo.
.... do you think that conservative positions don't impact other people?
My guy, I can rattle off at least half a dozen conservative bugaboos without which I would be quite literally dead. Don't give me the "Well, it's just their opinion!" bullshit.
There is no type of politics that doesn't affect somebody.
Literally dead? That seems like you're being dramatic, my guy.
I'm a mentally ill cripple with multiple chronic illnesses and severe social anxiety. I've been in spots in my life before where government assistance of multiple kinds has been the difference between life and death. Don't give me the 'You're being dramatic' bullshit unless you've vomited blood to the point of near exsanguination, had to ration life-saving medication, had breakdowns on the side of a freeway, shattered a thigh, went quite literally without food for days for lack of means, etc etc etc etc. In all of those cases, government programs have, at least once and often multiple times, been the difference between life and death for me.
Go fuck yourself.
Isn't it amazing how detached people can be from the real-world effects of their thoughts and beliefs, so long as they don't get to personally experience their impact?
I've personally experienced a universal healthcare system and its effects. It killed a family member and almost killed me.
Sorry for that guy's experiences, but the sort of things he went through are systems and programmes you'd get in most governments throughout the whole political landscape.
Is the view that this wouldn't have happened under private healthcare predicated on something in particular? It's not like private healthcare is somehow fundamentally immune to malpractice.
it’s one step away from a toilet paper usa astroturfing bit
In the UK where there's universal healthcare, we had Dr. Harold Shipman who murdered a lot, and a current court case with Lucy Letby who killed 8 newborns. Malpractice happens in every system regardless of how it's funded.
Probably not the place for a discussion about healthcare systems on a meme shitpost thread, but I do think there's better alternatives to universal healthcare where standards usually drop for everybody. Obviously, there's some godawful private systems too, just look at America.
nice anecdotes. the data say more socialized systems have better performance overall, time and time again.
i would link you, but being a smart conservative, i’m sure you know the googles and how to separate emotional arguments and facebook memes from reporting on data-driven studies.
I'll note that it's extremely hard to vet for that sort of behaviour in doctors and preempt the cases you've described from happening - they could have just as easily happened under private healthcare.
Citations needed
Having lived in two countries with universal health care and in the states I can safely say you are full of shit and the American system only works if you have a ton of money.
One of my good friends got fired after being diagnosed with cancer and because she made over the amount for Medicare already she was out of pocket until the next year.
That’s a cruel system where you buy your way into the line.
I totally agree, the American system is awful. Germany, on the other hand, has the most beds per person in the G7. Fully insurance driven.
89% of Germans are covered by public health insurance funds, with 11% covered by private health insurance.
Both public and private systems are currently struggling due to inflation.
And how many people in your country have medical debt, which can stretch into hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars? As someone who’s got extensive experience with a decent tier of US healthcare, it blows, and this system is perfectly capable of fucking up and killing people. People with national healthcare who don’t appreciate it) like British Conservatives, which I’d guess from spelling and syntax is what you are) have no fucking idea. You have never seen someone coughing up blood not go to the doctor because of what it would cost, only for you to make her go to the emergency room, which you know coukd ruin her life, because you thought she might die. I have, with a friend in college. She turned out ok, but plenty don’t. Obamacare marginally improved things, but if you haven’t dealt with a for-profit health system, then you should be spending more time listening before assuming it’s better than yours.
Oh, a liar defending conservatives? How boring.
my grandpa died because of the inadequacy of my country's public healthcare system. i'm still not gonna advocate for the privatization of healthcare, because yes, private healthcare exists too, guess what, it doesn't apply to everyone (and didn't happen to apply to my grandpa). that's quite literally the point of making it private and paywalled, if you don't or can't pay up, you're shit out of luck.
universal healthcare isn't perfect, but it's still better to provide it than to not do so. especially since if you know how the free market works, you should also know that if either supply or demand is inflexible that leads to market exploitation, and demand is static without a government baseline. if people receive universal healthcare, then private options can still exist, but using them is an option, not an imperative, and therefore the market can actually do its thing.
same goes for other issues like housing. why do you think the prices are skyrocketing? you can say no to, idk, a tv, and just watch shit on your phone instead, so tv prices are sane, but if you say no to housing means you'll live on the street. some people do try that, which is why van life is so frickin popular lately, but for the most part, the demand for housing is the same no matter what the supply side does, so it will just skyrocket. the invisible hand can't work if you tie one of the hands.
So they shouldn't want better life conditions for themselves? You don't want any improvment for even yourself? Please tell me you are a troll or a bot.
Yeah, I literally could not afford to be alive due to the insanity of the US healthcare system, and multiple chronic diseases which hit me in my 30s and resulted in several ER visits and requirement of very expensive medication. Meanwhile republican politicians pretty much jerk off with glee about taking away my access to healthcare, which would literally kill me. Not sure how “I’m not that conservative! I’m one of the good ones! I just vote for people who want you to die!” folks expect me to feel.
Uh, no, pretty much every conservative politician wants to take away my access to healthcare, which would kill me.
Lay down with dogs, wake up with fleas
Maybe a small portion, but that just means they're 100% okay with those as long as the already super rich can be the tiniest bit richer
My favorite thing is when a conservative finds themselves outside of one their safe-space, echo chambers and are shocked to discover that not only do regular people not agree with them, but they find their views so abhorrent that they actively view all conservatives as complete pieces of shit. And they are not wrong to do so.
i'm the real bigot because i dont want to shag someone who happily advocates for making it as hard as possible for me to get gender affirming healthcare and openly supports the neoliberal privatisation that's devastated my country?
yes i very openly discriminate against conservatives, i have no plans for stopping or apologising
Would a black person be justified in not wanting to date a white supremacist? Or would you call the black person “the real bigot”?
Not wanting to date someone because of their beliefs sounds like a perfectly valid reason. Especially if those beliefs can impact someone's rights
You should 100% treat people different depending on their beliefs.
If the beliefs in question are like, banning books, oppressing gender identities, removing reproductive rights, oppressing the needy, undermining elections with baseless conspiraciesand selling out to the highest bidders, then yeah, they and their beliefs can suck a fuck.
Right? Whenever someone is confused about my dislike of conservatives, they act like I disagree with their tax policies.
Obviously there are bigger things at issue here.
Conservatives: "We don't believe that you should have full control over your body and will happily pass laws to prevent you from exercising that control, including laws that will send you to prison for a life-saving medical procedure."
Women: "oh fuck. Wow. Uh. Okay, I will not be associating with you."
You: "WOAHHHHH WOAHHHHHHHH WOW CALM DOWN THERE LITTLE MISS BIGOT HOW ABOUT SOME RESPECT FOR PEOPLE HUH?"
Choosing not to date someone isn't really treating someone differently, 7 billion people on this planet you're not gonna date most of them
Not wanting to date somebody is not the same as "treating people differently". You're arguing in bad faith
I'll think of you when I punch a Nazi.
Yeah, like Nazis are scared of you.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/410/015/531.jpg
You talk like someone who's never scrolled through beholdthemasterrace. Are you actually a fuckin nazi bro? You sure talk like one.
Less than a day between "conservatives arent all bad guys, stop being so mean" to literally defending Nazi's.
Yea bud, I'll just go ahead and use you as an example of exactly why people feel the way they do in this thread.
When it comes to dating? Yes. Absolutely. Why would you think that beliefs are a non factor for dating?
"Im not that conservative" said every conservative ever when arguing on a left leaning platform
I kinda get a kick out of the ignorance some conservatives bring to the table. It's almost cute, if not so stupid.
You should read up on the paradox of tolerance, and why Conservative attempts to play the victim card only expose their hypocrisy.
Believe it or not, it's perfectly normal to only want a relationship with someone who shares your core values. You conservatives (don't lie) might understand that if you actually tried to have an actual relationship with someone instead of trying to establish ownership over them.
I hope this is a bit.
I mean I form all judgements and treat people different based off their beliefs and actions as the former lead to the latter...
No cause we don't advocate for them to be punished in any way. We just don't want to fuck them.
That persecution fetish is out and about, huh?
I don't mind their different beliefs, what matters is the fact that they try to force it on everyone else. You think being gay is bad? Then don't be gay yourseld. You think getting an abortion is bad? Then don't get an abortion. But the moment you try to force that on anyone else is the moment you're inviting the world to shit on you. After all, no one is passing laws to discriminate against straight cis people, or forcing everyone to get an abortion.
When their beliefs include hating me, yeah, I'm going to treat them differently.
Hello! You have fallen into the tolerance paradox; how can you be tolerant when you're intolerant to intolerance? Easy I'm tolerant because I don't tolerate intolerance. Beliefs aren't equal, anyone who believes in inferiority or inequal treatment for reasons outside ones control should be called out. It is not a live and let live mindset, it's a "live the way I tell you to or you're a bigot" doesn't sound very liberty loving to me. You can dislike it, you can rant, but once you limit peoples access to equal rights and treatment you're infringing on their rights. Any freedom loving American can respect that.
You'll notice that on the list of things that are illegal to discriminate against, everything is either an immutable part of the person (national origin, race, gender) or is something that is unethical to ask a person to change about themselves (religion).
Political beliefs are nowhere on the list, because they're not immutable and it's not unethical to ask somebody to change them.
Discriminating against somebody for their political affiliation or political beliefs is legal and, in some cases, moral/ethical.
(As an aside, this is what makes all the people wanting to discriminate against LGBTQ people on religious grounds so egregious; they always had the right to discriminate against LGBTQ people on political grounds, but that wasn't enough for them. They had to do it "in the name of God.")
I don't think that asking someone to change their religion is unethical, at least if asking them to stop being religious. In most cases, religion is not all that different from politics, with religion being central to various modern and historical states. At best, religion to someone is just a set of unsubstantiated beliefs. In less good cases, they'll proselytize and be pushy about it and make bad personal decisions and use their religion to justify it. At worst, they use it as a political tool, using it as a justification to be discriminatory and exclusionary. Many wars and other atrocities in history have been for religion or catalyzed by it. Encouraging people to step away from delusion that has a historical tendency to cause mass violence shouldn't be wrong to do. It's protected legally in much of the west because it's useful as a political tool. It's easier to use religious rhetoric as a way to push other political goals than it is to fight against and let others embrace it the same.
A response in one link: https://beehaw.org/post/1060695
I agree. These bigots are no different than the bigots on the opposite end of the spectrum.