Europeans like Chinese electric vehicles because they are affordable.
Meanwhile European manufacturers are probably pushing behind the scene to restrict the Asian competitors on the market so they can decide what price is right.
In the next months in France they will reduce the subsidies for Electric Vehicle with a poor CO2 bill like imported Chinese cars.
So even less people will get to afford EVs.
I don't think this is just about cheap Chinese labor importing cheap Chinese cars to Europe. It's also about Europe ignoring the importance of battery tech and manufacturing for decades and suddenly acting all surprised that we are not competitive.
How VW, one of/the largest car manufacturers in the world, turns out the overpriced shit EVs it does, yeah... No wonder people are looking elsewhere
Covid also really did a number on the car market (like so many others), probably take another 2-4 years before the used market gets anywhere back to normal.
VWs recent EVs were shit as well. Paywall locking the biggest battery behind the most expensive high performance model when people who are looking to adopt are chasing the max range as possible due to range anxiety. A shit infotainment system that controls everything but regularly crashes or lags out. Crap charging rates, crap regen and efficiency. Killing off their more popular entry level trim that was actually priced competitively to drive up margins.
Its just another example of a market dominator trying to abuse their position in a new space and coming unstuck. They had to cut back on shifts and staff at their EV plants they fucked up that hard.
this is why big business love's regulations
Stellantis just released the e-C3. It is priced competitively.
I thought this was a new brand of cars I never heard of but no, you used the name of the corporate group instead of Citroen, confusing! Looks nice though, modern Citroen are really nice.
Yes, sorry. I used to follow FCA news a lot and I'm used to use the Corp name instead of the brand.
Lol, a car industry that hasn't innovated in years is suddenly threatened by innovation. Still, fuck cars. We should make them nigh obsolete with better public transport.
All my homies hate cars.
I love cars. Fixing them is a pain in the ass but a fun challenge. Driving them can be fun, too. But, I think I'd love some kickass, efficient, abundant, affordable public transportation even more.
God. We could have had it by now. It'd be so rad. But no.
That's a bit of a nuanced take. This is Lemmy, please choose one side and stick to it, no matter what.
Cars are fascinating from an engineering perspective, can be a neat hobby, and are useful in many scenarios. None of this makes me feel any better when I'm walking home from the bus stop, choking on exhaust and feeling unsafe as I quadruple check both ways before stepping on to the street.
Cars can be cool, but they are mostly fucking awful in pretty much every way imaginable.
Also my original comment was obviously a joke and not an attempt at a serious discussion about the pros and cars of cars.
What innovation are they threatened by?
Chinese affordable EVs with an infotainment system that represents tech from the last 5 years.
That's not innovation though? That's just making the same thing but cheaply.
Car batteries you can swap by hand in a few minutes without going to the shop, reverse charging (a car battery can power your home for a while), face scanning tech to ensure you aren't distracted by your phone, capacitive door handles, resistive car doors that limit how far you can open them if there's an obstacle in order no to scratch the doors, intercar communication, and that's what I picked up from watching a video for a few minutes.
BYD added a few thousand patents since 2011 and that's just one of the car companies. They have played around with designs, materials, and much more. IINM they are also working on solid state batteries.
And of course modernising the supply chains and making it possible even produce a car cheaply, quickly, and better quality than a Tesla. If that isn't innovation for you, then I don't know what is.
Those are all things that I've seen on Western made cars, are you claiming that they where invented by Chinese car manufacturer? Like swappable ev batteries had been around since 2000, the reason most manufacturers don't offer this feature is because they weigh 1000+ lbs. You're not swapping that by hand in a couple of minutes. Can you please leave the link to the video you watched?
Where did BYD file these patients, in China? Are these patients that came from BYDs partnership with Mercedes that started in 2010?
How did they modernise the supply chain exactly? Is the lower price not just a reflection of cheaper labor and worse quality cars. What review said the quality is better than Tesla? Also idk if you're aware but Tesla has the worst quality of any Western car manufacturer, literally dead last, so that claim isn't even very impressive lol.
The political class trying to protect the interests of the billionaire class. You grow up under this capitalist system and all you hear is "competition is driving innovation" but the moment true competition comes knocking on your door, you lock yourself into a room.
I’m not entirely sure why they want to fight low prices? The article doesn’t say why EU and others shouldn’t be able to afford e-vehicles
They undercut the sales of European vehicles which cost more.
Oh no, capitalism hurts itself in its confusion
"Capitalism breeds innovation and drivers prices down!"
Capitalism: no not like that
Unsustainable Chinese state subsidy is not capitalism.
Of course they are, subsidies are one of capital's favourite methods to siphon money out of the populace. Or were you under the impression that greedy people like playing fair on fair markets?
It's literally socialism but for the rich.
US government shoving millions up the asses of the their industries: capitalism
China shoving millions into their industries: communism
Yours faithfully, the brainwashed USAian
Every country does some level of industry subsidy. So it's kind of baked into capitalism now. And, technically, has been since the beginning.
yes, it is, USA also do that, and others countries with fossil fuel
Yes, and the EU largely responds in the sectors of US subsidy. Food imports are restricted. Airbus and Boeing are constant sources of trade spats, etc.
Chinese subsidy makes American subsidy look like childs play. Their response to China should match that discrepancy.
They are talking about car subsidies which China does and not all countries do in all markets.
It's not that simple. Caricatures are easy, but the fact remains that the Chinese auto makers are heavily subsidized and it's that government support that allows them (partially at least) to undercut the European auto makers.
That being said, the European auto makers really deserve to be hurt for their arrogance. And that's coming from someone whose income is directly related to how well they do.
If the EU bans Chinese cars, that's not capitalism in action.
They're fighting Chinese market manipulation that is specifically designed to make the world dependent on them and lowers wages across the world by creating massive market imbalances. Every nation with two brain cells should ban the import of all Chinese vehicles and eventually all Chinese industry entirely.
Chinese electric car makers get absolutely massive state subsidies. There are companies like Nio that have never made a single dollar of profit. Nio has been losing money on every single car they sell, to the point where they've been losing almost a billion dollars in the last quarter alone.
However, China doesn't care. The state keeps financing these companies, because if they can undermine European and American auto makers to the point where they're simply unable to compete and maybe even completely collapse, then Chinese car makers will be the only ones left in the market, and they'll be able to charge any price they want.
And realistically, which American or European car maker will be able to compete with a multitude of Chinese competitors that all can afford to lose billions and billions every year without batting an eye?
So that's why they want to fight "low prices."
What article? That's an ad.
As long as safety and environmental regulations in China are lower than in Europe, it will always be cheaper to produce there.
Government trying to steer a herd of impulsive and selfish citizens into doing what makes sense for the collective (or what they believe makes sense (or what they're trying to convince us they believe makes sense))
deeper nested brackets Or what the car lobby tells them they should try to convince they believe makes sense
Not a single head of any of the car makers who participated in the rigging of diesel car emissions testing went to jail.
Diesel car emssions are thought to kill around 10000 people per year in Europe (not all of which the excess emissions resulting from the rigging, but part of it).
Not even human lives are more important than the wishes of the car lobby for european politicians.
If there's money to be made, large companies regardless of nationality will gladly slaughter the mass for a profit increase.
The really shocking bit, however, is how our supposed representatives will help them out.
To be fair, stuff like the GDPR is probably not in the lobby's best interests, so they do bring good regulation too
(((Triple brackets in internet speak means the thing is Jewish or a dogwhistle you lemon)))
Wow, what the actual fuck, why do nazis need to ruin everything?
I think ruining things is just their whole identity, but tbh, of all the things they've ruined, triple brackets is pretty low on the list.
RIP to all your apparent Internet communications that people have taken as weirdly out of place anti-semitism though
Is it racist to say I'd never buy a Chinese car just on principle?
If it's because you hate Asians, then yes. If it's because you believe China makes bad products or because of their unethical practices, then no.
It could be all three since racists tend to think China makes bad products and have unethical practices because they are Chinese due to conflating race and culture.
I am kinda Asian LOL.
It's just that most non-electronic Chinese manufactured stuff is just terrible build quality.
It could be, you'd have to define the principle.
I'm prejudiced against Chinese manufacturing - it's all shit.
It isn't. You get what you pay for.
Only if it had something to do with race. If it's because you don't think their manufacturing standards are high enough to feel safe that wouldn't be racist per se.
Electric cars are so much simpler than ICEs...they're almost "phones with wheels"...so IF you happen to "trust" "buy" their phones, it's not a huge jump to cars...but it's a jump 😅 , just not on principle.
I get your point but choosing Chinese phones as a trust example is hilarious. Every Chinese phone has a backdoor straight to China.
Your Apple or Android have a high probability of having all or part made in China.
I know, maybe trust was not the right expression. The issue is that we still buy them, even if we know they're pumped full of spyware from a country that is not an ally.
Depends if it is based on culture/race or the country's economic and other policies.
No. Chinese cars have been a thing in New Zealand for decades now and they are HORRIFIC. They import the good version for safety testing then promptly switch out the steel for cheaper “Chinesium,” and airbags for cheaper versions. No one should ever buy one until long term reliability studies are conducted. I will eat my hat if they’re anything other than terrible.
Yeah the "great wall" Ute's et cetera have a terrible reputation here. They're bottom tier fleet vehicles.
Campers & trailers are the same. Too thin to be repaired.
State literally calls itself communist. (Operates more like a fascist state than a communist one)
Conducts ever more of its industry through the state and strictly controls the banks and loans.
Exercises huge subsidies across the entire economy which is visible through their massive and growing imbalance between their internal consumption and export.
"You only say it's not capitalist because they aren't white"
No I say they aren't capitalist because they aren't capitalist.
China is closer to neo-mercantilism due to the level if direct state involvement in private business.
As a nationalist economic policy, neo-mercantilism integrates well with the fascist economic model, particularly in this age when the masses are so accustomed to foreign goods that they might find the explicit notion of autarky alienating.
Yes but ideologically China is not aligned with fascism at all. They are on paper still pretending to be Marxists. Fascism is opposed to Marxism.
And what do you call an authoritarian ethnic state that has co opted capital to ensure and spread state control over public and private life?
Authoritarian, which you already mentioned.
And why should I, a European consumer, care if China has a communist economy or not?
Same shit to me. You live your entire life under capitalism being lied to about how "competition drives innovation" and suddenly when competition knocks on your door, you lock yourself in.
Because China achieves it's goals though large scale industrial subsidy and directly suppresses global wages as a result result, impacting your paycheck.
I'm sorry, but why aren't we doing anything about all the subsidies and forgiveable loans (including the ones these companies are using as tax deductible to pay 0 euros taxes while banking billions) my government is handing out to banks, property management companies, car manufacturers, petroleum product producers then?
By pricing their models competitively, right?
...right?
Exactly.
Europeans like Chinese electric vehicles because they are affordable.
Meanwhile European manufacturers are probably pushing behind the scene to restrict the Asian competitors on the market so they can decide what price is right.
In the next months in France they will reduce the subsidies for Electric Vehicle with a poor CO2 bill like imported Chinese cars.
So even less people will get to afford EVs.
I don't think this is just about cheap Chinese labor importing cheap Chinese cars to Europe. It's also about Europe ignoring the importance of battery tech and manufacturing for decades and suddenly acting all surprised that we are not competitive.
How VW, one of/the largest car manufacturers in the world, turns out the overpriced shit EVs it does, yeah... No wonder people are looking elsewhere
Covid also really did a number on the car market (like so many others), probably take another 2-4 years before the used market gets anywhere back to normal.
VWs recent EVs were shit as well. Paywall locking the biggest battery behind the most expensive high performance model when people who are looking to adopt are chasing the max range as possible due to range anxiety. A shit infotainment system that controls everything but regularly crashes or lags out. Crap charging rates, crap regen and efficiency. Killing off their more popular entry level trim that was actually priced competitively to drive up margins.
Its just another example of a market dominator trying to abuse their position in a new space and coming unstuck. They had to cut back on shifts and staff at their EV plants they fucked up that hard.
this is why big business love's regulations
Stellantis just released the e-C3. It is priced competitively.
I thought this was a new brand of cars I never heard of but no, you used the name of the corporate group instead of Citroen, confusing! Looks nice though, modern Citroen are really nice.
Yes, sorry. I used to follow FCA news a lot and I'm used to use the Corp name instead of the brand.
Lol, a car industry that hasn't innovated in years is suddenly threatened by innovation. Still, fuck cars. We should make them nigh obsolete with better public transport.
All my homies hate cars.
I love cars. Fixing them is a pain in the ass but a fun challenge. Driving them can be fun, too. But, I think I'd love some kickass, efficient, abundant, affordable public transportation even more.
God. We could have had it by now. It'd be so rad. But no.
That's a bit of a nuanced take. This is Lemmy, please choose one side and stick to it, no matter what.
Cars are fascinating from an engineering perspective, can be a neat hobby, and are useful in many scenarios. None of this makes me feel any better when I'm walking home from the bus stop, choking on exhaust and feeling unsafe as I quadruple check both ways before stepping on to the street.
Cars can be cool, but they are mostly fucking awful in pretty much every way imaginable.
Also my original comment was obviously a joke and not an attempt at a serious discussion about the pros and cars of cars.
What innovation are they threatened by?
Chinese affordable EVs with an infotainment system that represents tech from the last 5 years.
That's not innovation though? That's just making the same thing but cheaply.
Car batteries you can swap by hand in a few minutes without going to the shop, reverse charging (a car battery can power your home for a while), face scanning tech to ensure you aren't distracted by your phone, capacitive door handles, resistive car doors that limit how far you can open them if there's an obstacle in order no to scratch the doors, intercar communication, and that's what I picked up from watching a video for a few minutes.
BYD added a few thousand patents since 2011 and that's just one of the car companies. They have played around with designs, materials, and much more. IINM they are also working on solid state batteries.
And of course modernising the supply chains and making it possible even produce a car cheaply, quickly, and better quality than a Tesla. If that isn't innovation for you, then I don't know what is.
Those are all things that I've seen on Western made cars, are you claiming that they where invented by Chinese car manufacturer? Like swappable ev batteries had been around since 2000, the reason most manufacturers don't offer this feature is because they weigh 1000+ lbs. You're not swapping that by hand in a couple of minutes. Can you please leave the link to the video you watched?
Where did BYD file these patients, in China? Are these patients that came from BYDs partnership with Mercedes that started in 2010?
How did they modernise the supply chain exactly? Is the lower price not just a reflection of cheaper labor and worse quality cars. What review said the quality is better than Tesla? Also idk if you're aware but Tesla has the worst quality of any Western car manufacturer, literally dead last, so that claim isn't even very impressive lol.
The political class trying to protect the interests of the billionaire class. You grow up under this capitalist system and all you hear is "competition is driving innovation" but the moment true competition comes knocking on your door, you lock yourself into a room.
I’m not entirely sure why they want to fight low prices? The article doesn’t say why EU and others shouldn’t be able to afford e-vehicles
They undercut the sales of European vehicles which cost more.
Oh no, capitalism hurts itself in its confusion
"Capitalism breeds innovation and drivers prices down!"
Capitalism: no not like that
Unsustainable Chinese state subsidy is not capitalism.
Unsustainable state subsidies are not capitalism. Remember it’s not just the Chinese that do this kind of stuff.
Of course they are, subsidies are one of capital's favourite methods to siphon money out of the populace. Or were you under the impression that greedy people like playing fair on fair markets?
It's literally socialism but for the rich.
US government shoving millions up the asses of the their industries: capitalism
China shoving millions into their industries: communism
Yours faithfully, the brainwashed USAian
Every country does some level of industry subsidy. So it's kind of baked into capitalism now. And, technically, has been since the beginning.
yes, it is, USA also do that, and others countries with fossil fuel
Yes, and the EU largely responds in the sectors of US subsidy. Food imports are restricted. Airbus and Boeing are constant sources of trade spats, etc.
Chinese subsidy makes American subsidy look like childs play. Their response to China should match that discrepancy.
They are talking about car subsidies which China does and not all countries do in all markets.
It's not that simple. Caricatures are easy, but the fact remains that the Chinese auto makers are heavily subsidized and it's that government support that allows them (partially at least) to undercut the European auto makers.
That being said, the European auto makers really deserve to be hurt for their arrogance. And that's coming from someone whose income is directly related to how well they do.
If the EU bans Chinese cars, that's not capitalism in action.
They're fighting Chinese market manipulation that is specifically designed to make the world dependent on them and lowers wages across the world by creating massive market imbalances. Every nation with two brain cells should ban the import of all Chinese vehicles and eventually all Chinese industry entirely.
Chinese electric car makers get absolutely massive state subsidies. There are companies like Nio that have never made a single dollar of profit. Nio has been losing money on every single car they sell, to the point where they've been losing almost a billion dollars in the last quarter alone.
However, China doesn't care. The state keeps financing these companies, because if they can undermine European and American auto makers to the point where they're simply unable to compete and maybe even completely collapse, then Chinese car makers will be the only ones left in the market, and they'll be able to charge any price they want.
And realistically, which American or European car maker will be able to compete with a multitude of Chinese competitors that all can afford to lose billions and billions every year without batting an eye?
So that's why they want to fight "low prices."
What article? That's an ad.
As long as safety and environmental regulations in China are lower than in Europe, it will always be cheaper to produce there.
What is Europe if not Europeans?
Government trying to steer a herd of impulsive and selfish citizens into doing what makes sense for the collective (or what they believe makes sense (or what they're trying to convince us they believe makes sense))
deeper nested brackets Or what the car lobby tells them they should try to convince they believe makes sense
Not a single head of any of the car makers who participated in the rigging of diesel car emissions testing went to jail.
Diesel car emssions are thought to kill around 10000 people per year in Europe (not all of which the excess emissions resulting from the rigging, but part of it).
Not even human lives are more important than the wishes of the car lobby for european politicians.
If there's money to be made, large companies regardless of nationality will gladly slaughter the mass for a profit increase.
The really shocking bit, however, is how our supposed representatives will help them out.
To be fair, stuff like the GDPR is probably not in the lobby's best interests, so they do bring good regulation too
(((Triple brackets in internet speak means the thing is Jewish or a dogwhistle you lemon)))
Wow, what the actual fuck, why do nazis need to ruin everything?
I think ruining things is just their whole identity, but tbh, of all the things they've ruined, triple brackets is pretty low on the list.
RIP to all your apparent Internet communications that people have taken as weirdly out of place anti-semitism though
Is it racist to say I'd never buy a Chinese car just on principle?
If it's because you hate Asians, then yes. If it's because you believe China makes bad products or because of their unethical practices, then no.
It could be all three since racists tend to think China makes bad products and have unethical practices because they are Chinese due to conflating race and culture.
I am kinda Asian LOL.
It's just that most non-electronic Chinese manufactured stuff is just terrible build quality.
It could be, you'd have to define the principle.
I'm prejudiced against Chinese manufacturing - it's all shit.
It isn't. You get what you pay for.
Only if it had something to do with race. If it's because you don't think their manufacturing standards are high enough to feel safe that wouldn't be racist per se.
Electric cars are so much simpler than ICEs...they're almost "phones with wheels"...so IF you happen to
"trust""buy" their phones, it's not a huge jump to cars...but it's a jump 😅 , just not on principle.I get your point but choosing Chinese phones as a trust example is hilarious. Every Chinese phone has a backdoor straight to China.
Your Apple or Android have a high probability of having all or part made in China.
I know, maybe trust was not the right expression. The issue is that we still buy them, even if we know they're pumped full of spyware from a country that is not an ally.
Depends if it is based on culture/race or the country's economic and other policies.
No. Chinese cars have been a thing in New Zealand for decades now and they are HORRIFIC. They import the good version for safety testing then promptly switch out the steel for cheaper “Chinesium,” and airbags for cheaper versions. No one should ever buy one until long term reliability studies are conducted. I will eat my hat if they’re anything other than terrible.
Yeah the "great wall" Ute's et cetera have a terrible reputation here. They're bottom tier fleet vehicles.
Campers & trailers are the same. Too thin to be repaired.
State literally calls itself communist. (Operates more like a fascist state than a communist one)
Conducts ever more of its industry through the state and strictly controls the banks and loans.
Exercises huge subsidies across the entire economy which is visible through their massive and growing imbalance between their internal consumption and export.
"You only say it's not capitalist because they aren't white"
No I say they aren't capitalist because they aren't capitalist.
China is closer to neo-mercantilism due to the level if direct state involvement in private business.
As a nationalist economic policy, neo-mercantilism integrates well with the fascist economic model, particularly in this age when the masses are so accustomed to foreign goods that they might find the explicit notion of autarky alienating.
Yes but ideologically China is not aligned with fascism at all. They are on paper still pretending to be Marxists. Fascism is opposed to Marxism.
And what do you call an authoritarian ethnic state that has co opted capital to ensure and spread state control over public and private life?
Authoritarian, which you already mentioned.
And why should I, a European consumer, care if China has a communist economy or not?
Same shit to me. You live your entire life under capitalism being lied to about how "competition drives innovation" and suddenly when competition knocks on your door, you lock yourself in.
Because China achieves it's goals though large scale industrial subsidy and directly suppresses global wages as a result result, impacting your paycheck.
I'm sorry, but why aren't we doing anything about all the subsidies and forgiveable loans (including the ones these companies are using as tax deductible to pay 0 euros taxes while banking billions) my government is handing out to banks, property management companies, car manufacturers, petroleum product producers then?
This reads like a fluff piece. BYD doesn’t even rank in poplar brands and models in Europe.
Maybe that's because VW & co. are similiar to a Käfer under the hood.